Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

It's hilarious how people will argue RAW to the death in a game that isn't officiated.

If we had Ref's nobody would think twice about this type of thing, it's so clear cut.

Some facts:

1+ FNP is legit

Endurance is the only realistic way to get it, which is dispellable

It's probably a pretty scary scenario when this actually happens because the group he's with is rolling with a 3+ FNP

Sure the model can be killed but not in actuality (LoS's and the fact that the chapter master has 4 wounds and eternal warrior)

I second the whole 'not synonymous'

The whole concept that Saving Throws and Saves are synonymous comes from this sentence from the Types of Saving Throw section: All these forms of protection are represented by saving throws (sometimes called saves), as we’ll now discuss. There is nothing within that specifically states that the word save will always mean Saving Throw, just that it sometimes means Saving Throw. This is why the rest of the section is vital, as it goes on to actually define what a Saving Throw is. For the lone word save, in any context, to mean 'Saving Throw' it must still be able to meet the definitions within this Section of the book or have a Rule specifically mentioning that it is a Saving Throw. As Feel No Pain fail to meet these definitions, go out of it's way to specifically mention it is not a Saving Throw and actually become impossible to use if it was a Saving Throw... how can anyone conclude that it is a Saving Throw?

I also found it quite entertaining that one side wants to take this lone sentence as evidence that Feel No Pain is a Saving Throw, but feels it is dishonest to use the rest of this section that actually defines what a Saving Throw is....

Seylem I should have defined that some of my last post was about you, some was about your other supporter DR. As you'll find he is the one with the weak analogies. I literally forgot there were two of you who cherry picked quotes. I apologize for lumping you two together.

Also, JD, you're stripping the floor out from your own side's arguments. I and BT earlier, stated saving throws are what the book said fnp was not. Fnp's rules says it is a save.

You will find DR argued they are the same thing. I'm willing to accept they are not and ate not synonymous, but that means fnp is a save, while not a saving throw, which was BTs initial argument that people like DR would not accept.

Since you clearly agree, why are you on the wrong side?
The argument was that they were synonymous, and as such that fnp was not a save and therefore is not held to the 2+ ruling. If that were true then they would not be held to the later paragraph as they aren't saves.

Do you see where the breakdown is?

Either it is both, or the rule is written wrong.
It cannot be neither and the rule written correctly as they claim.

I agree intent in most of it is clear. But you're on the wrong side of the argument. Unless they finally give up their stance that they mean the same thing or that the rule is written wrong. One of them must be true.

A T6 unit can take FNP from S10.

yep, and the unit in question is T5.

Let us say that the word 'save' in this clause does somehow mean 'Saving Throw,' which is far from proven, the following question still remains:
How does that overturn the clause literally stating it is not a Save?

I think we've now been through this extensively.
It doesn't, and there are multiple parts of the book that indicate that FnP is not intended as a save.

So I think we can put this to bed before we have 30 more posts on the same thing.

Just trying to figure out what a lone word in a single sentence, which is at best a typo and at worse a deliberate misinterpretation, has to do with the 'Can a Model gain a Feel No Pain of 1' question.

Because due to FnP stacking, it is possible to acquire 1+ FnP on an Iron Hands Smashfether. With T5. Then theres the rule that saves fail on a 1, regardless of modifiers. We then needed to figure out whether or not FnP is a save. I take it you've read the thread thus far?

+1 FNP is absolutely possible.

Feel No Pain saves are not a save in the same way that various other things in the game have names that do not necessarily correspond with a rule with a similar name.

Such as heavy flamers, assault cannons, etc.

Again, covered this multiple times.

Still would like your opposition to answer the question Selym:
Why should a single word, that is at best a mistake and at worse being misinterpreted, over-turn a specific Clause stating that Feel No Pain is not a Save?

Doom, read my posts, that been covered.

JD it's poor rules writing. That's been my point the whole time.

Either we accept the terrible rules writing and move on, or we argue frivolously.

I have actually given names to some of the methodology that leads to common mistakes done by Game Workshop, so I understand how bad they are at writing Rules.
However, if this 'error' has nothing to do with the topic on hand I have to wonder why is it being put forth as if it was evidence of something....

Selym wrote:Again, covered this multiple times.

I went back and read your posts, and I agree with your line of thinking. It just seems that people aren't used to GWs stupidity in using the same name to describe two completely separate rules.

FratHammer wrote:Doom, read my posts, that been covered.

JD it's poor rules writing. That's been my point the whole time.

Either we accept the terrible rules writing and move on, or we argue frivolously.

Yeah I guess you are right Frat, they literally go " hey this is not a save, but hey remember this thing when you take this save...."


Honestly I am surprised that there aren't rules lawyers out right now arguing that since a Feel No Pain Save doesn't exist then that means that you can always take a FNP Roll even against Str D and Instant Death weapons.

I could hug you