Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Wallur wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Wallur wrote:


Rules given by a formation, "the unit has X rule" when you create the datasheet does not affect the IC, because the IC joins AFTER the rule comes to effect. The Unit already has X when the IC joins.

It is worth noting that the IC need not have the rule to benefit from it.

An IC that has a heavy weapon and doesn't have relentless, the whole unit can't charge, because 1 model can't charge.
The same way an IG unit, where one fire heavy weapon and everyone else with bolters, the unit can't charge, because 1 model can't charge.

That is because the Relentless special rule clearly references models, unlike First Fire, then Blade.

So specifically in the case of this Formation, an IC with a Heavy that fires it, (assuming at the same target as the AS) would the "can assault the same turn it arrives from DS" rule allow the unit to still assault? RAI would be no but RAW says yes since the specific rule overrides the generic rule.

BTW in the above example: IG with bolters? Probably meant lasguns. Either way lasguns and bolters are Rapid Fire and you can't assault if you fired Rapid Fire weapons.

 PipeAlley wrote:
So specifically in the case of this Formation, an IC with a Heavy that fires it, (assuming at the same target as the AS) would the "can assault the same turn it arrives from DS" rule allow the unit to still assault? RAI would be no but RAW says yes since the specific rule overrides the generic rule.

Possibly incorrect on two points.

There is no specific overrides general rule. There is a Basic vs Advanced Rule, though.

If the IC is Relentless or Slow and Purposeful on their own, than they wouldn't affect the Charge, since it is allowed. However, the First the Fire does not state allowing a Charge after firing a Heavy Weapon for the Assault Squad. The Devastator Squad could charge after firing a Heavy Weapon, but Deep Striking and arriving from Reserves would prevent it.

The Relentess applies to the Devestators not the Assault Squads, while the charging from Deep Strike applies to the Assault Squad not the Devestators. That is no way for an Unit to benefit from both abilities at the same time.

However, a Grey Knight Grandmaster or Brotherhood-Captain with a heavy weapon upgrade attached to the Assault Squad in reserves would gain the ability to charge out of Deep Strike (he is in TDA after all, which gives him Relentless and Deep Strike). He's also a Psyker, and can take Prescience.

SJ

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
The Relentess applies to the Devestators not the Assault Squads, while the charging from Deep Strike applies to the Assault Squad not the Devestators. That is no way for an Unit to benefit from both abilities at the same time.

However, a Grey Knight Grandmaster or Brotherhood-Captain with a heavy weapon upgrade attached to the Assault Squad in reserves would gain the ability to charge out of Deep Strike (he is in TDA after all, which gives him Relentless and Deep Strike). He's also a Psyker, and can take Prescience.

SJ

I think he as I did, refered if the IC would join the devastator squad, as a mere situation comparison.

I cannot belive that this is still being "discussed", as RAW is completely unambiguous...

Independant Character rules say:
When an Independent Character joins a unit, it might have different special rules from those of the unit. Unless specified in the rule itself (as in the Stubborn special rule), the unit’s special rules are not conferred upon the Independent Character, and the Independent Character’s special rules are not conferred upon the unit.
So it clearly states the units special rules... units special rules are obviously listed under the tab "special rules" in the according unit entry in a codex, right?
Ok, lets see then: for both the Assault Squad and the Devastator Squad those units special rules read: "ATSKNF, Chapter Tactics, Combat Squads" FULLSTOP!
No word of "First the Fire, then the Blade" in there, it simply isnt listed anywhere in either units entry, it is NOT a units special rule!
It is a special rule listed in a formation and describes how units from this formation are handled / deploy / act / etc... just like ObSec in a CAD!
Marneus Calgar attached to an Assault Squad is part of that squad (and there is no rule saying he has to be from the same detachment) and Tigurius attached to a Devastator Squad is part of that squad aswell, both because of
While an Independent Character is part of a unit, he counts as part of the unit for all rules purposes, though he still follows the rules for characters. and therefore benefit from all rules which describe how these units are handled / deploy / act / etc.

highwind01 wrote:
I cannot belive that this is still being "discussed"...

It wasn't being discussed until you pulled it back up

Last post: 2015/08/18 16:46:26

highwind1 post: 2015/09/06 14:20:32

anyway, I won't even read and keep discussing this.

highwind01 wrote:
Independant Character rules say:
When an Independent Character joins a unit, it might have different special rules from those of the unit. Unless specified in the rule itself (as in the Stubborn special rule), the unit’s special rules are not conferred upon the Independent Character, and the Independent Character’s special rules are not conferred upon the unit.
So it clearly states the units special rules... units special rules are obviously listed under the tab "special rules" in the according unit entry in a codex, right?
Ok, lets see then: for both the Assault Squad and the Devastator Squad those units special rules read: "ATSKNF, Chapter Tactics, Combat Squads" FULLSTOP!
No word of "First the Fire, then the Blade" in there, it simply isnt listed anywhere in either units entry, it is NOT a units special rule!
It is a special rule listed in a formation and describes how units from this formation are handled / deploy / act / etc... just like ObSec in a CAD!

Someone needs to learn how Formation Datasheets and Detachment FOCs work.

From Necron Datasheets:

FORMATIONS
Formation datasheets are identified by this symbol. The rules for Formations can be found in Warhammer 40,000: The Rules. A Formation datasheet will list the Army List Entries which make up the Formation, any restrictions upon what it may include, and any special rules the Formation’s units gain.

Command Benefits
This lists any additional bonuses or special rules that apply to some, or all, of the units in this Detachment

So, yeah, those Devastator Squads have four new rules listed under Combat Squads when taken as part of the Skyhammer Formation.

Doesn't change the fact that those rules specifically address units getting the benefits, which would then include any joined ICs at the time, though.