Which do you think is the most broken 'large' formation?

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**asorel**

Haven't seen any of these in play, though from what I have seen theoretically, it seems like the Gladius is the most difficult to abuse, if for no other reason than points threshold, and unit tax to a lesser extent. Once you hit games that are large enough for every detachment to come into its own, the power difference isn't severe.

**Freman Bloodglaive**

Rihgu wrote:
Ashiraya wrote:
Rihgu, you're making the assumption that a power fist is worth 25 points both on a terminator and a chapter master.

This is not the case.

Actually, you're right. I checked the points costs and 25pts is for a model wearing Power Armor (a la a tactical sergeant). For a model in Terminator armor it is only 10 points.

And it is not an assumption - it is explicit fact according to the codex.

Note where he said "worth" not "cost". A power fist is not "worth" 25 points on anything with only two attacks. Vangaurd pay 15, and that's possibly close to what they're worth for a two attack model. Terminators do not have equipment options, they have to take the power fist and the storm bolter which means that there are no sacrificial models. Vangaurd can just take a couple of bullet sponges for 22 points each. Terminators cost nearly double that. Every wound the unit takes, and they take wounds more easily than their equivalent points in Tactical marines, loses a power fist and a storm bolter that the owning player had to pay for. Terminator armour comes with a power weapon for characters, so the 10 points is to upgrade a power weapon to a fist. Incidentally a Terminator and Terminator Sergeant cost the same, despite one having a fist and the other a sword.

**greatbigtree**

Free-Stuff formations are only powerful once you break certain points thresholds.

For example, the Gladius with dual Core choices needs at least 2000 points to be worth taking, and even then you have 6 tactical squads. So you invest a crap-load of points into utterly mediocre units, in order to get some free mediocre tanks. You get a pile of mediocre units, that eat up all the points you want to spend on cool stuff. None of the Gladius options are all that great. Middling rules to go with awkward unit groups.

Decurion is balls-out powerful from 500 points to whatever you want. There's no loss or gain in scale. Units that are stupefyingly tough, with weapons that can hurt anything, backed up by some almighty powerful units that get even better with their formation rules...

The Eldar Warhost is ok, but the power in the Eldar Codex comes from the units, not the Detachment bonuses. The Detachment / Formation bonuses are icing on an already impressive cake. Scat Bikes + Fire Dragons / Wraithguard + Wraithknight is easily doable at 1500+ points. Drop the WK for less than that, and you're still rocking a mighty powerful crew from about three units.

The more powerful formation, for DA, is their Ravenwing formation. It's pretty tough with the rerollable Jink... but your models are more expensive than basic Terminators, so you aren't just shilling 13 points per indestructible trooper.

**Alcibiades**

TheSilo wrote:
Alcibiades wrote:
Decurion Warriors, even with the reroll, are not more resilent than Terminators against small arms.

Bolters:

.5 x .5 x .42 = 0.105

,.5 x .17 = 0,085

Unless you are including Res Orbs or Ghost Ark resurrection,

Necron Warrior - 13 points

Space Marine Terminator - 35 points

Which is not the claim that I was responding to.

**wuestenfux**

The decurion has my vote.

**ZergSmasher**

As was mentioned earlier, the OP left out one of the large composite formations: the Blood Host Detachment from Codex: Khorne Daemonkin. To me, it is proof that these formation-of-formations don't have to be cheesy. The Blood Host is pretty good, but a CAD is still worthwhile in the Daemonkin codex if you want to take a different combination of units. For Necrons, the Decurion bonuses are powerful, but one player in my group usually takes a small CAD of necrons, plus the Canoptek Harvest formation with about 24 wraiths. Not a Decurion, but that list is still pretty tough. To me, that says that the real problem isn't the Decurion so much as the insane power of the Necron codex.

**gummyofallbears**

the necron codex has a few gems, however, I would argue that the codex is not insanely powerful like you say.

it can be played slowed powerfull, but if you have a wide variety of units in a CAD with no wraiths, maybe throw a ctan in there to gimp yourself a bit, and you you have a strong codex, but not something that is insanely powerful.

**farshot9**

Poly Ranger wrote:
Tbh I thought the last Necron dex was pretty strong, but that was because I ran veiltek/stormtek courts, anni-barges, CCBs, nightscythes, wraiths with D-Lords and scarabs... all of which incidentally, aside from the wraiths got seriously nerfed or completely disappeared.

I will say that I'm incredibly surprised that people are saying Necron Decurion because of every army being the same. The compulsory units for the Decurion come to below 350pts minumum whereas Gladius, Lions Blade and War Convocation have much higher points costs in compulsory units. That would suggest that both Eldar and Necron detachments are going to be more varied when using these.

I play Necrons but not Decurion (no bikes). I've played against Decurion a few times and it is pretty annoying. Played against the Warhost a few times and that whole dex is incredibly strong, not just wraithknights, wraiths and jetbikes like some people believe. I've not actually played against Lions Blade or the War Convocation yet, but definitely not looking forward to the war convo.

I want people to judge how OP these are now in the current meta based on all other armies not juat against the other 4. After all, we don't ignore BA, SW, GK, CSM, Daemons, Renegades, IG, Tau, Sisters, Inquisition, IKs, DE, Harlequins, Orks or Nids when discussing balance, tactics or general gameplay usually. Or SM, Eldar, Crons, DA, Skitarii, Ad Mech or IKs not using these formations either.

Minor correction for accuracy sake, The points cost for the minimum decurion is 544pts. 479 points for a bare reclamation legion, and 65 points for the cheapest bare auxiliary. Both of which you must take to recieve the decurion bonuses.
Some of the auxiliaries are close to 500pts without any upgrades so it can easily approach 1000pts.

Edit; spelling and details

**Poly Ranger**

Ah yes I forgot the auxillary. I also only accounted for 10 warriors rather than 20.