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Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
My houserules let stormbolters fire as heavy 3 but cannot make snapshots with that fire mode, and combibolters on chaos variants count as a close combat weapon in melee. I also gave all the prior units wearing terminator armor a 5 point reduction just like the marines.

Terminators aren't that bad off, I don't understand why everyone feels they are garbage...

If you have to house rule something, balance isn't good.
They're bad off because they don't do anything well. Mathhammer shows that an equal number of Banshees can potentially win combat against them, and Terminators aren't supposed to be an optimal target for them.

Are you trying to summon Bharring?

I Love terminators, they are without a doubt my favorite unit to play against because I win with almost anything against them.

With that in mind I would be perfectly ok with them gaining a 2+ 4+ and giving one the option of upgrading for points to a Terminator Apothacary. That way they could if they want get a 2+4+, 5++ and a 5+ FNP that would make them more survivable.

Unfortunately that doesn't justify them still except as really expensive/hard to kill obj holders. They need more Dakka. To justify the fact that they all walk around wearing tactical dreadnought armor I would also be amendable to the idea of the storm bolters being upgraded to Heavy bolters for 3-5pts each.

I'd like to see assault cannons, but I'd be willing to compromise and try heavy bolters first.

Martel732 wrote:
Are you trying to summon Bharring?

Like when we use actual math on him and he ignores it? Why would I want that in this thread?

I do support Heavy Bolters, but it makes little sense from a modeling standpoint. Therefore S5 is the best way to fix Storm Bolters. As I mentioned, it improves PA Grey Knights so we kill two birds with one stone. There still wouldn't be a lot of incentive to take them as a weapon, but now it's at least less...terrible.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Are you trying to summon Bharring?

Like when we use actual math on him and he ignores it? Why would I want that in this thread?

I do support Heavy Bolters, but it makes little sense from a modeling standpoint. Therefore S5 is the best way to fix Storm Bolters. As I mentioned, it improves PA Grey Knights so we kill two birds with one stone. There still wouldn't be a lot of incentive to take them as a weapon, but now it's at least less...terrible.

There's always kitbashing the models. Also, there are many options that GW doesn't make models for.

The range is actually really important as to not be total victims of scatbikes. Making the stormbolter S5 has a lot of unintended consequences and doesn't improve their range.

Martel732 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Are you trying to summon Bharring?

Like when we use actual math on him and he ignores it? Why would I want that in this thread?

I do support Heavy Bolters, but it makes little sense from a modeling standpoint. Therefore S5 is the best way to fix Storm Bolters. As I mentioned, it improves PA Grey Knights so we kill two birds with one stone. There still wouldn't be a lot of incentive to take them as a weapon, but now it's at least less...terrible.

There's always kitbashing the models. Also, there are many options that GW doesn't make models for.

The range is actually really important as to not be total victims of scatbikes. Making the stormbolter S5 has a lot of unintended consequences and doesn't improve their range.

They can Deep Strike and I highly suggest Teleport Shunt. Getting close isn't the main issue in this case. We want a reason to take Tactical Terminators, and we want Assault Terminators to be scary, and we want a reason to take Terminator Characters. What's the worst possible consequence?

I've given this a lot of thought based on what a lot of folks have suggested in previous threads, and these are the most practical alterations profile changes I've gathered from those discussions.

4+ invul, with storm shield giving 3++ and counter attack to keep it viable.
2+ armour save plus... TDA should have a unique rule -allows a 5+ FNP against weapons with AP 4 or worse.

It's meant to be the most durable personal armour in the game. I think this would befit that status, without making them broken.

Storm bolters to 24 Assault 3, or 24' Salvo 2/4

Nothing too drastic. Change points as appropriate.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
My houserules let stormbolters fire as heavy 3 but cannot make snapshots with that fire mode, and combibolters on chaos variants count as a close combat weapon in melee. I also gave all the prior units wearing terminator armor a 5 point reduction just like the marines.

Terminators aren't that bad off, I don't understand why everyone feels they are garbage...

If you have to house rule something, balance isn't good.
They're bad off because they don't do anything well. Mathhammer shows that an equal number of Banshees can potentially win combat against them, and Terminators aren't supposed to be an optimal target for them.

So what if banshees can potentially win? Anything can potentially win. Adding feel no pain for example only means you are reducing their chance to win by a third. They dropped 25 points for the squad, and have a 12" range advantage over the banshees. Give them an autocannon and how far do you think the banshees get without being mulched?

I houseruled stormbolters to help grey knight strike squads. Their special weapons options are all salvo, so I figured it would give them a niche for holding positions. The terminators buff was a side effect that I think does quite a bit for them as a whole. The points drop was a bone thrown to all the other terminators because it isn't fair for them to have the exact same units but pay more points for them. Terminators deepstirking has one major flaw and that is people expect them to be able to land in front of an entire army and absorb everything thrown at them. Fluff is fluff and all, but nothing outside of serious vehicles and huge creatures should actually be able to pull it off.

My spacewolves termies do well every game, no matter my opponent from tau to necrons they do work, and lots of it. Heavy flamer in a drop pod (because everybody can have those now) and that unit of terminators can simply claim an objective from some poor sod who thought it was theirs, then next turn move out and start punching things repeatedly in the face with giant fists.

Terminator usually get laughed off the table in my experience. Far too few wounds to give.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Are you trying to summon Bharring?

Like when we use actual math on him and he ignores it? Why would I want that in this thread?

I do support Heavy Bolters, but it makes little sense from a modeling standpoint. Therefore S5 is the best way to fix Storm Bolters. As I mentioned, it improves PA Grey Knights so we kill two birds with one stone. There still wouldn't be a lot of incentive to take them as a weapon, but now it's at least less...terrible.

There's always kitbashing the models. Also, there are many options that GW doesn't make models for.

The range is actually really important as to not be total victims of scatbikes. Making the stormbolter S5 has a lot of unintended consequences and doesn't improve their range.

They can Deep Strike and I highly suggest Teleport Shunt. Getting close isn't the main issue in this case. We want a reason to take Tactical Terminators, and we want Assault Terminators to be scary, and we want a reason to take Terminator Characters. What's the worst possible consequence?

There is no substitute for range. You deep strike or shuntb and eldar just kill you or run away.

Martel732 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Are you trying to summon Bharring?

Like when we use actual math on him and he ignores it? Why would I want that in this thread?

I do support Heavy Bolters, but it makes little sense from a modeling standpoint. Therefore S5 is the best way to fix Storm Bolters. As I mentioned, it improves PA Grey Knights so we kill two birds with one stone. There still wouldn't be a lot of incentive to take them as a weapon, but now it's at least less...terrible.

There's always kitbashing the models. Also, there are many options that GW doesn't make models for.

The range is actually really important as to not be total victims of scatbikes. Making the stormbolter S5 has a lot of unintended consequences and doesn't improve their range.

Yup, like making the Heavy Bolter look even worse than it already does.

Actually I just had a fun idea for changing stormbolters.
Range 24" assault 2 S4 ap3 and a special rule that ignores jink saves on a to wound of 6.

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
My houserules let stormbolters fire as heavy 3 but cannot make snapshots with that fire mode, and combibolters on chaos variants count as a close combat weapon in melee. I also gave all the prior units wearing terminator armor a 5 point reduction just like the marines.

Terminators aren't that bad off, I don't understand why everyone feels they are garbage...

If you have to house rule something, balance isn't good.
They're bad off because they don't do anything well. Mathhammer shows that an equal number of Banshees can potentially win combat against them, and Terminators aren't supposed to be an optimal target for them.

So what if banshees can potentially win? Anything can potentially win. Adding feel no pain for example only means you are reducing their chance to win by a third. They dropped 25 points for the squad, and have a 12" range advantage over the banshees. Give them an autocannon and how far do you think the banshees get without being mulched?

I houseruled stormbolters to help grey knight strike squads. Their special weapons options are all salvo, so I figured it would give them a niche for holding positions. The terminators buff was a side effect that I think does quite a bit for them as a whole. The points drop was a bone thrown to all the other terminators because it isn't fair for them to have the exact same units but pay more points for them. Terminators deepstirking has one major flaw and that is people expect them to be able to land in front of an entire army and absorb everything thrown at them. Fluff is fluff and all, but nothing outside of serious vehicles and huge creatures should actually be able to pull it off.

My spacewolves termies do well every game, no matter my opponent from tau to necrons they do work, and lots of it. Heavy flamer in a drop pod (because everybody can have those now) and that unit of terminators can simply claim an objective from some poor sod who thought it was theirs, then next turn move out and start punching things repeatedly in the face with giant fists.

You clearly misunderstand what I meant when I talked about Banshees potentially winning the combat. mathematically it's ridiculous.

The eldar jetbikes should be 4+ save, I have a full thread of my houserules on here somewhere. Also, all characters that are part of a unit's entry have an additional wound in my houserules, meaning terminator sargents have two wounds a piece. (Doesn't count for eldar, skitarii, and Harlequins)

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
The eldar jetbikes should be 4+ save, I have a full thread of my houserules on here somewhere. Also, all characters that are part of a unit's entry have an additional wound in my houserules, meaning terminator sargents have two wounds a piece. (Doesn't count for eldar, skitarii, and Harlequins)

I think this is worth noting. For no real reason at all, Eldar Exarchs get improved stats AND another wound.

It seemed to be the way things were lining up, skitarii units, eldar exarchs, harlequin troupes all got extra wounds for their Sargent level characters. Necron royal court did also, but they also got moved to independent status. I feel there is still a decent chance of tau getting the same thing due to not having to change the statlines in another book. We will see.

But for terminators you get the bonus of letting the Sargent tank an extra wound to give the unit more survivability. Meaning challenges aren't so one sided, points for his upgrades feel less wasted, and if a single hit comes off an ap2 weapon like a plasma gun you aren't going to lose fighting capacity or needing to take an independent character.

The bonus wound actually helps all the armies, but terminators getting an extra chance at a 2+ REALLY helps them out.

TBF, Skitarii and Harlequin's probably got 2W sergeants because they have no HQs and the Sergeants are meant to represent the leaders of the force.

Craftworld got it because Craftworld Eldar.

give them a 2+ armor save but make all weapons fired at them -1 S and +1 AP that way only Ap1 weapons ignor there armor

 hanshotfirst wrote:
give them a 2+ armor save but make all weapons fired at them -1 S and +1 AP that way only Ap1 weapons ignor there armor

Scratch the +1 AP part but the -1 str would help them against being spammed to death by small arms fire but not making them op. Small bonus that they are wounded on 3s from Tau plasma.

 Vankraken wrote:

 hanshotfirst wrote:
give them a 2+ armor save but make all weapons fired at them -1 S and +1 AP that way only Ap1 weapons ignor there armor

Scratch the +1 AP part but the -1 str would help them against being spammed to death by small arms fire but not making them op. Small bonus that they are wounded on 3s from Tau plasma.

Nurgle terminators... Wounded on fives by Tau

Terminators don't need more durability. They just need to be able to do damage do the cost, and need to be able to get into combat easier, seeing as Land Raiders aren't actually good.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Terminators don't need more durability. They just need to be able to do damage do the cost, and need to be able to get into combat easier, seeing as Land Raiders aren't actually good.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Terminators don't need more durability. They just need to be able to do damage do the cost, and need to be able to get into combat easier, seeing as Land Raiders aren't actually good.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Terminators don't need more durability. They just need to be able to do damage do the cost, and need to be able to get into combat easier, seeing as Land Raiders aren't actually good.

More Dakkachoppa

Shooty terminators need bigger guns. Fixed. Assault terminators need the Land Raider and Stormraven to not suck ass. Fixed.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Terminators don't need more durability. They just need to be able to do damage do the cost, and need to be able to get into combat easier,

In terms of making them competitive you're correct, but from a fluff point of view (specifically representing units with suitable stats) they do indeed need more durability, as their durability is supposed to be near unmatched, and well, that clearly isn't the case, with them having a considerably lower survivability to points ratio than a hell of a lot of other units out there. I don't mind if they're slow and clumsy or only have moderate firepower, but I want them to be the man tanks they're supposed to be, not dropping like flies to plasma...and lasguns for that matter :(

 thegreatchimp wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Terminators don't need more durability. They just need to be able to do damage do the cost, and need to be able to get into combat easier,

In terms of making them competitive you're correct, but from a fluff point of view (specifically representing units with suitable stats) they do indeed need more durability, as their durability is supposed to be near unmatched, and well, that clearly isn't the case, with them having a considerably lower survivability to points ratio than a hell of a lot of other units out there. I don't mind if they're slow and clumsy or only have moderate firepower, but I want them to be the man tanks they're supposed to be, not dropping like flies to plasma...and lasguns for that matter :(

The mechanics of 40K make it impossible to convey ANY of the fluff. Nothing works right at ALL in the game. Not even common space marines. It's just best to ignore the fluff or rework the whole thing with D20s.

Martel732 wrote:

 thegreatchimp wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Terminators don't need more durability. They just need to be able to do damage do the cost, and need to be able to get into combat easier,

In terms of making them competitive you're correct, but from a fluff point of view (specifically representing units with suitable stats) they do indeed need more durability, as their durability is supposed to be near unmatched, and well, that clearly isn't the case, with them having a considerably lower survivability to points ratio than a hell of a lot of other units out there. I don't mind if they're slow and clumsy or only have moderate firepower, but I want them to be the man tanks they're supposed to be, not dropping like flies to plasma...and lasguns for that matter :(

The mechanics of 40K make it impossible to convey ANY of the fluff. Nothing works right at ALL in the game. Not even common space marines. It's just best to ignore the fluff or rework the whole thing with D20s.

Burn the heretic!

You can try, but I'm fire proof.

 thegreatchimp wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Terminators don't need more durability. They just need to be able to do damage do the cost, and need to be able to get into combat easier,

In terms of making them competitive you're correct, but from a fluff point of view (specifically representing units with suitable stats) they do indeed need more durability, as their durability is supposed to be near unmatched, and well, that clearly isn't the case, with them having a considerably lower survivability to points ratio than a hell of a lot of other units out there. I don't mind if they're slow and clumsy or only have moderate firepower, but I want them to be the man tanks they're supposed to be, not dropping like flies to plasma...and lasguns for that matter :(

All making them more durable does is to make sure you're still ignoring them. Therefore:
1. S5 Storm Bolters
2. Teleport Shunt
3. 2 heavy Weapons at 5 man squads
4. HoW
BAM, done. Now both variants are less likely to not contribute.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 thegreatchimp wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Terminators don't need more durability. They just need to be able to do damage do the cost, and need to be able to get into combat easier,

In terms of making them competitive you're correct, but from a fluff point of view (specifically representing units with suitable stats) they do indeed need more durability, as their durability is supposed to be near unmatched, and well, that clearly isn't the case, with them having a considerably lower survivability to points ratio than a hell of a lot of other units out there. I don't mind if they're slow and clumsy or only have moderate firepower, but I want them to be the man tanks they're supposed to be, not dropping like flies to plasma...and lasguns for that matter :(

All making them more durable does is to make sure you're still ignoring them. Therefore:
1. S5 Storm Bolters
2. Teleport Shunt
3. 2 heavy Weapons at 5 man squads
4. HoW
BAM, done. Now both variants are less likely to not contribute.

Describe your idea of teleport shunt.
Mine would make them Jetpack infantry

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

All making them more durable does is to make sure you're still ignoring them.

Not so from what I deduce: Making them even 50% more durable means they're around for 50% longer assuming your opponent is throwing the same amount of firepower at them. Employed correctly that means they'll survive close combat for 50% longer, and for tactical termies that's 50% more powerfist hits. Not something a wise opponent would ignore.

Shooting less so, but they're not supposed to be especially shooty so I'm ok with that. Buffing the storm bolter would help though. I'm not in fan of slapping lots of heavy weapons on them. We already have devs and dev centurions for that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:
[quote=thegreatchimp 665206 8168028 03456f1e9b3a4cd86b020f4e2cb3538c.jpg The mechanics of 40K make it impossible to convey ANY of the fluff. Nothing works right at ALL in the game. Not even common space marines. It's just best to ignore the fluff or rework the whole thing with D20s.

Yes in the interests of keeping a functional game many units particularly marines are toned down compared to what we see in the books, and that's ok to a point. But the forte of each unit should still distinguish them on the board. Jetbikes should have great speed, devastators great firepower, and terminators great durability. Termies just aren't done justice in that regard.

Absolutely agree, the mechanics of the game are hamstrung by being limited to D6. I'd personally like to see a transition to D10, but it's admittedly not likely to happen.

 Tactical_Spam wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 thegreatchimp wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Terminators don't need more durability. They just need to be able to do damage do the cost, and need to be able to get into combat easier,

In terms of making them competitive you're correct, but from a fluff point of view (specifically representing units with suitable stats) they do indeed need more durability, as their durability is supposed to be near unmatched, and well, that clearly isn't the case, with them having a considerably lower survivability to points ratio than a hell of a lot of other units out there. I don't mind if they're slow and clumsy or only have moderate firepower, but I want them to be the man tanks they're supposed to be, not dropping like flies to plasma...and lasguns for that matter :(

All making them more durable does is to make sure you're still ignoring them. Therefore:
1. S5 Storm Bolters
2. Teleport Shunt
3. 2 heavy Weapons at 5 man squads
4. HoW
BAM, done. Now both variants are less likely to not contribute.

Describe your idea of teleport shunt.
Mine would make them Jetpack infantry

I'm thinking like how the Dreadknights do it. You get a cool ability to close in from a large distance.