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2016/01/28 22:17:57
Subject: Man Arrested For Taking Daughters Cell Phone
An over the top, and silly, example. And completely beside the point. What you describe is criminal behavior on the part of an adult. Children enjoy protections under the law from such criminal behavior against their person.
So children are persons? The argument you're making right now establishes them as lesser things than corporations.
Life does not cease to be funny when people die any more than it ceases to be serious when people laugh.
2016/01/28 22:18:07
Subject: Re:Man Arrested For Taking Daughters Cell Phone
oldravenman3025 wrote: Since people want to keep throwing around "examples", I'll do one of my own.
What if you noticed the grip of a revolver sticking out from under your kid's mattress? One that they bought from somebody else with their own money? It's technically theirs, is it not? Just like their cell phone and diary, right? The fact that they had it hidden, means they want you to respect their privacy, right? Going by the opinions I'm seeing so far, I get the impression that some think the parent has no right to violate their privacy, even in circumstances such as this.
Of course you have the right to search them or their room if you see a weapon, but I never made a claim that either kids have absolute privacy or they have zero privacy.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/01/28 22:18:55
lord_blackfang wrote: Respect to the guy who subscribed just to post a massive ASCII dong in the chat and immediately get banned.
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2016/01/28 22:26:14
Subject: Man Arrested For Taking Daughters Cell Phone
Wulfmar wrote: Hold on... people actually think that the guy who confiscated the phone because it had inappropriate stuff on it, who then had the police called on him the same day before any discussion with the mother was had... is in the wrong?
Simple yes or no will suffice as I try and understand - then if you could explain why - thx
Yes,
The confiscation was fine if he thought his (minor) daughter had something inappropriate on it,
keeping it until she was due to return to her mum would also be fine, as the responsible adult he gets to decide on that sort of stuff in his household (in her household the mum is the responsible adult and gets to make the rules)
but not returning the phone was where he went wrong as it didn't belong to him.
He either had to return it to the daughter when she left his care
or to the mother who bought it (where he could also talk to her about the inappropriate content). When shown the content mum might have agreed it meant daughter could not be trusted with a phone (or perhaps could with a phone but not a smart phone), problem solved. If they could not agree he could have said the daughter could not have it the phone when she was with him in the future and he'd hold it until she left if she did arrive with it
or finally to the police if the content was illegally inappropriate (eg sexting).
If the mother went straight to the police in a formal way she certainly over reacted, better to talk to the husband informally first only then if he won't return the phone would making a formal complaint make sense. That she had a police partner/boyfriend makes it more complicated as I wouldn't be surprised if he jumped in when daughter came home saying ex-dad took my phone, but from the report you just can't tell.
that it went all the way to court just shows how much bitterness and anger hangs around in many divorces
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/01/28 22:27:14
2016/01/28 22:47:31
Subject: Man Arrested For Taking Daughters Cell Phone
Wulfmar wrote: Hold on... people actually think that the guy who confiscated the phone because it had inappropriate stuff on it, who then had the police called on him the same day before any discussion with the mother was had... is in the wrong?
Simple yes or no will suffice as I try and understand - then if you could explain why - thx
Yes,
The confiscation was fine if he thought his (minor) daughter had something inappropriate on it,
keeping it until she was due to return to her mum would also be fine, as the responsible adult he gets to decide on that sort of stuff in his household (in her household the mum is the responsible adult and gets to make the rules)
but not returning the phone was where he went wrong as it didn't belong to him.
He either had to return it to the daughter when she left his care
or to the mother who bought it (where he could also talk to her about the inappropriate content). When shown the content mum might have agreed it meant daughter could not be trusted with a phone (or perhaps could with a phone but not a smart phone), problem solved. If they could not agree he could have said the daughter could not have it the phone when she was with him in the future and he'd hold it until she left if she did arrive with it
or finally to the police if the content was illegally inappropriate (eg sexting).
If the mother went straight to the police in a formal way she certainly over reacted, better to talk to the husband informally first only then if he won't return the phone would making a formal complaint make sense. That she had a police partner/boyfriend makes it more complicated as I wouldn't be surprised if he jumped in when daughter came home saying ex-dad took my phone, but from the report you just can't tell.
that it went all the way to court just shows how much bitterness and anger hangs around in many divorces
Thank you very much! I see why people aren't automatically defending the Father then. The whole part with the police being included in a family matter still seems alien to me (I understand and agree if the content was illegally inappropriate they should be!), I'm just surprised the family members didn't talk about it and instead prefer the shame of getting outsiders to deal with their immaturity
Thousand Sons: 3850pts / Space Marines Deathwatch 5000pts / Dark Eldar Webway Corsairs 2000pts / Scrapheap Challenged Orks 1500pts / Black Death 1500pts
Thank you very much! I see why people aren't automatically defending the Father then. The whole part with the police being included in a family matter still seems alien to me (I understand and agree if the content was illegally inappropriate they should be!), I'm just surprised the family members didn't talk about it and instead prefer the shame of getting outsiders to deal with their immaturity
When a boy and a girl love each other (or get gak-hammered one night on nickle beer night), they sometimes make a baby.
When a boy and a girl grow up (or a boy find out that other girls are into kinkier gak), they sometimes get divorced.
Sometimes, divorces get ugly and mean.
Eric Carman ugly and mean.
DA:70S+G+M+B++I++Pw40k08+D++A++/fWD-R+T(M)DM+
2016/01/29 00:07:55
Subject: Man Arrested For Taking Daughters Cell Phone
I think if I were in that exact situation, and confiscated the phone, I'd block pretty much every app and the ability to add new ones under a password that only I knew...
Every number but 3 would also be blocked
2016/01/29 00:18:45
Subject: Re:Man Arrested For Taking Daughters Cell Phone
Of course you have the right to search them or their room if you see a weapon, but I never made a claim that either kids have absolute privacy or they have zero privacy.
But what constitutes a weapon? Lots of sports equipment could be construed as a weapon, and a lot of it is the sort of thing kids would keep in their room: bats, sticks, cleats, spikes.
Life does not cease to be funny when people die any more than it ceases to be serious when people laugh.
2016/01/29 00:22:59
Subject: Re:Man Arrested For Taking Daughters Cell Phone
Of course you have the right to search them or their room if you see a weapon, but I never made a claim that either kids have absolute privacy or they have zero privacy.
But what constitutes a weapon? Lots of sports equipment could be construed as a weapon, and a lot of it is the sort of thing kids would keep in their room: bats, sticks, cleats, spikes.
I still agree with d-usa because none of the things you list are anywhere close to the realm of discipline. So, parents still have "right to disciple however they see fit" because abuse and abusive practices are not discipline.
What about spanking? That can easily be construed as abuse.
Spanking, or, as it’s formally known, “corporal punishment,” has been much in the news of late.
Out on the presidential campaign trail there was Senator Ted Cruz’s revelation that
If my daughter Catherine, the five-year-old, says something she knows to be false, she gets a spanking.
And recently, in Canada, following a call by the Truth and Reconciliation Commission to prohibit spanking, the Liberal government has promised to abolish a parent’s right to physically discipline children. Along similar legal lines, in June 2015, the Supreme Judicial Court of Massachusetts ruled that the state was justified in denying foster parenting privileges to a couple who practiced corporal punishment and supported spanking or paddling children. The couple in the case had argued, unsuccessfully, that physical discipline was an integral aspect of their Christian faith.
According to a recent Washington Post article,
America is slowly growing less supportive of spanking children. But a majority of Americans still support it.
So, is it okay to spank a misbehaving child, every once in a while?
By way of personal disclosure, my wife and I don’t have children, and I try not to sit in lofty judgment of couples whose kids present very difficult behavioral problems. But as a psychiatrist, I can’t ignore the overwhelming evidence that corporal punishment, including spanking (which is usually defined as hitting a child with an open hand without causing physical injury), takes a serious toll on the mental health of children.
Why Parents Spank Children
In a review of corporal punishment in the United States, Professor of Psychiatry at the University of Toledo Michelle Knox noted a striking irony in the American attitude toward corporal punishment.
In the United States, it is against the law to hit prisoners, criminals or other adults. Ironically, the only humans it is still legal to hit are the most vulnerable members of our society – those we are charged to protect – children.
What makes parents spank kids? Lauren, CC BY-NC-ND
Knox, like many mental health professionals, cites a strong correlation between corporal punishment and child abuse, noting that “…spanking is often the first step in the cycle of child abuse.”
What may begin as the parent’s well-intentioned wish to discipline a child often ends with the parent’s mounting anger and worsening blows.
It isn’t that the parent is “evil” by nature or is a “child abuser.” Often, the parent has been stressed to breaking point, and is not aware of alternative methods of discipline – for example, the use of “time-outs,” removal of privileges and positive reinforcement of the child’s appropriate behaviors.
Impact Of Spanking On Children
The psychological toll on children subjected to corporal punishment is well-documented.
In 2011, the National Association of Pediatric Nurse Practitioners (NAPNA) issued a statement noting that,
Corporal punishment (CP) is an important risk factor for children developing a pattern of impulsive and antisocial behavior…[and] children who experience frequent CP… are more likely to engage in violent behaviors in adulthood.
Similarly, the American Academy of Child and Adolescent Psychiatry, in a 2012 statement, concluded that,
…although corporal punishment may have a high rate of immediate behavior modification, it is ineffective over time, and is associated with increased aggression and decreased moral internalization of appropriate behavior.
In short, spanking a child may seem helpful in the short term, but is ineffective and probably harmful in the long term. The child who is often spanked learns that physical force is an acceptable method of problem solving.
Parents vs. Researchers
But wait: aren’t there exceptions to these general findings? Aren’t there times when a light rap on the backside can do a misbehaving child some good – or at least, not cause any significant harm?
Many parents think so, but most specialists would say there is little evidence to support such claims. That said, Dr Marjorie Gunnoe, a professor of psychology at Calvin College, and her colleague, Carrie Lea Mariner published a study in 1997 that concluded that, “for most children, claims that spanking teaches aggression seem unfounded.”
Gunnoe and Mariner argued that the effects of spanking may depend on the “meaning” children ascribe to it. For example, spanking perceived by the child as parental aggression (as opposed to nonaggressive limit setting) may be associated with subsequent aggressive behavior by the child.
Spanking can lead to child aggression. Greg westfall, CC BY
And, to be sure, some parents have argued that it is the misbehavior of children that leads to spanking – not the reverse.
Nevertheless, there is a strong consensus in the mental health community that any form of corporal punishment can cause harm.
Dr Catherine A Taylor (of Tulane University) and colleagues concluded in a 2010 review that
…even minor forms of corporal punishment, such as spanking, increase risk for increased child aggressive behavior.
Furthermore, clinical studies have shown that reducing parents’ use of corporal punishment can reduce children’s subsequent aggression.
Parents who believe they have no alternative except to spank their misbehaving children do not need finger-wagging lectures from clinicians.
But they do need professional support and education, aimed at reducing their level of stress and increasing their use of alternatives to corporal punishment.
2016/01/29 00:52:51
Subject: Man Arrested For Taking Daughters Cell Phone
dogma wrote:So children are persons? The argument you're making right now establishes them as lesser things than corporations.
If that's how you take it, then that's on you. Not me.
Children are human beings, but underdeveloped human beings. They need to be protected, guided, and taught right from wrong. Your arguments are based around the idea that they have the same rights as adults across the board, including an absolute right to privacy. No if, ands, or buts. Which is, with all due respect, a load of horse crap. And an argument generally made by teenagers when they don't get their way, people who never raised kids, or people who are so absolutely "progressive" or "libertarian" in their outlook that their heads are in the clouds. I hate to break it to ya, Cap'n, but Ben Spock's ideas on child rearing went out the door years ago.
Ouze wrote:
Of course you have the right to search them or their room if you see a weapon, but I never made a claim that either kids have absolute privacy or they have zero privacy.
If I seemed like I was accusing you directly, my apologies. No harm, no foul. I was speaking in general on that point.
When kids get older certain allowances have to be made, including allowing a certain amount of freedom and privacy. However, it must be understood that those are merely privileges that can be rescinded if they screw up.
If they are still living in your home when they reach legal majority, you have to treat them like adults. But there still has to be ground rules. If they can't accept those rules, then they can move out.
I raised two step daughters, and have a hand in raising my adoptive grand kids. I don't have them goosestepping around the house going "HEIL PAPA!". But they understood/understand that as long as I was/am responsible for them, there will be rules (some of them are strict). And one of those is that if you screw up, there are consequences. Up to a loss in the amount of privacy they have, temporary loss of property, and a good old fashioned grounding.
Call me overprotective, a Captain Bligh, an donkey-cave, or lack in "modern" "progressive" methods of raising kids by not letting them do whatever the hell they want (when they want). But I'm responsible for seeing that they get guidance, learn responsibility, learn respect, and become good people and citizens. My step daughters turned out pretty good, and you couldn't ask for better grandkids. So, I have, and am still doing, something right.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/01/29 00:53:50
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2016/01/29 01:52:54
Subject: Man Arrested For Taking Daughters Cell Phone
dogma wrote:So children are persons? The argument you're making right now establishes them as lesser things than corporations.
If that's how you take it, then that's on you. Not me.
Children are human beings, but underdeveloped human beings. They need to be protected, guided, and taught right from wrong. Your arguments are based around the idea that they have the same rights as adults across the board, including an absolute right to privacy. No if, ands, or buts. Which is, with all due respect, a load of horse crap. And an argument generally made by teenagers when they don't get their way, people who never raised kids, or people who are so absolutely "progressive" or "libertarian" in their outlook that their heads are in the clouds. I hate to break it to ya, Cap'n, but Ben Spock's ideas on child rearing went out the door years ago.
Or they could be parents confident in their ability to teach their children. Or they could be parents who understand the benefits of privacy. Or they could just understand that every person has fundamental human rights.
You could also continue to try to paint people in a broad brush in order to make your argument seem like it is right. "Look at these guys over here! What sissies! Am I right boys?!"
2016/01/29 06:17:52
Subject: Man Arrested For Taking Daughters Cell Phone
Your arguments are based around the idea that they have the same rights as adults across the board, including an absolute right to privacy. No if, ands, or buts. Which is, with all due respect, a load of horse crap.
So your argument is that it is alright for a child to be tried as an adult, at the age of 13, but that they don't have adult rights?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/01/29 06:18:59
Life does not cease to be funny when people die any more than it ceases to be serious when people laugh.
2016/01/29 12:17:42
Subject: Man Arrested For Taking Daughters Cell Phone
dogma wrote:So children are persons? The argument you're making right now establishes them as lesser things than corporations.
If that's how you take it, then that's on you. Not me.
Children are human beings, but underdeveloped human beings. They need to be protected, guided, and taught right from wrong. Your arguments are based around the idea that they have the same rights as adults across the board, including an absolute right to privacy. No if, ands, or buts. Which is, with all due respect, a load of horse crap. And an argument generally made by teenagers when they don't get their way, people who never raised kids, or people who are so absolutely "progressive" or "libertarian" in their outlook that their heads are in the clouds. I hate to break it to ya, Cap'n, but Ben Spock's ideas on child rearing went out the door years ago.
Ouze wrote:
Of course you have the right to search them or their room if you see a weapon, but I never made a claim that either kids have absolute privacy or they have zero privacy.
If I seemed like I was accusing you directly, my apologies. No harm, no foul. I was speaking in general on that point.
When kids get older certain allowances have to be made, including allowing a certain amount of freedom and privacy. However, it must be understood that those are merely privileges that can be rescinded if they screw up.
If they are still living in your home when they reach legal majority, you have to treat them like adults. But there still has to be ground rules. If they can't accept those rules, then they can move out.
I raised two step daughters, and have a hand in raising my adoptive grand kids. I don't have them goosestepping around the house going "HEIL PAPA!". But they understood/understand that as long as I was/am responsible for them, there will be rules (some of them are strict). And one of those is that if you screw up, there are consequences. Up to a loss in the amount of privacy they have, temporary loss of property, and a good old fashioned grounding.
Call me overprotective, a Captain Bligh, an donkey-cave, or lack in "modern" "progressive" methods of raising kids by not letting them do whatever the hell they want (when they want). But I'm responsible for seeing that they get guidance, learn responsibility, learn respect, and become good people and citizens. My step daughters turned out pretty good, and you couldn't ask for better grandkids. So, I have, and am still doing, something right.
The problem people are having is that you said "Therefore, children have no right to privacy. ". Do you now agree that children have some right to privacy?
insaniak wrote: Sometimes, Exterminatus is the only option.
And sometimes, it's just a case of too much scotch combined with too many buttons...
2016/01/29 14:08:27
Subject: Man Arrested For Taking Daughters Cell Phone
Talizvar wrote: They have the right to food and shelter, a caring family life but zero rights to privacy until all the various nasty pitfalls of social interaction and dealing with "bad people" have been covered and addressed: I am not as concerned what my child says but what others say to him.
But what if a parent is one of the "bad people"?
I think the "caring family" bit was to cover that.
I have a narcissistic parent and a few protections from that piece of work would have been nice when I was a kid.
BUT I face serious challenges as a parent with a kid that has ADHD and very mild autism where most of my challenges are helping him understand why kids like to try to victimize him and how to deal with it without resorting to physical violence.
I have seen easily demonstrated that until some level of maturity is reached, certain rights and freedoms fall under the same category of "being of sound mind and body"... they are a work in progress and need some oversight.
A revolution is an idea which has found its bayonets.
Napoleon Bonaparte
2016/01/29 18:20:30
Subject: Man Arrested For Taking Daughters Cell Phone
Talizvar wrote: I think the "caring family" bit was to cover that.
Family can care without being good people, in fact that's pretty much the basis of psychology for a controlling parent. They see their kids as property, not people, and influences they can't control are threats to take that property away.
I have seen easily demonstrated that until some level of maturity is reached, certain rights and freedoms fall under the same category of "being of sound mind and body"... they are a work in progress and need some oversight.
Who sets that level? I know plenty of really immature people that qualify as adults.
Life does not cease to be funny when people die any more than it ceases to be serious when people laugh.
2016/01/29 18:30:37
Subject: Man Arrested For Taking Daughters Cell Phone
I have seen easily demonstrated that until some level of maturity is reached, certain rights and freedoms fall under the same category of "being of sound mind and body"... they are a work in progress and need some oversight.
Who sets that level? I know plenty of really immature people that qualify as adults.
I don't have an answer myself, but I'm interested in what you would set it at as you asked the question. What to you qualifies as an adult?
Thousand Sons: 3850pts / Space Marines Deathwatch 5000pts / Dark Eldar Webway Corsairs 2000pts / Scrapheap Challenged Orks 1500pts / Black Death 1500pts
Thousand Sons: 3850pts / Space Marines Deathwatch 5000pts / Dark Eldar Webway Corsairs 2000pts / Scrapheap Challenged Orks 1500pts / Black Death 1500pts
If the daughter qualifies as adult then the situation is different.
If the girl qualifies as a child, then the situation is different.
I'm following on the conversation flow between two people as I'm interested
Don't be such a fething gak
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d-usa wrote: Being able to take a joke requires a certain level of majority, so that could be two strikes...
I get kicked about on this part of the forum too much to take things 'as a joke' when it's all that happens. If you're going to use 'its'a joke' as an excuse you're no different than an abusive parent / partner who excuses their behaviour and makes out the victim is 'over sensitive'
Thousand Sons: 3850pts / Space Marines Deathwatch 5000pts / Dark Eldar Webway Corsairs 2000pts / Scrapheap Challenged Orks 1500pts / Black Death 1500pts
I have a two year old, feel free to google the number to Oklahoma's DHS office to report me.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Edit: also, in case you haven't noticed. I post in the OT, a lot, and my joke was very much self-depreciating humor. I know that it is immature to get heated up about Internet arguments because I do get worked up way too much about Internet arguments. We need to realize that none of the stuff we post here makes any sort of difference and that's is just childish bickering. Once we realize the immaturity of getting into arguments that result from posting in the OT, looks at my post and your post as "exhibit A", we can be more light hearted about them and realize that they are silly.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/01/29 19:27:22
2016/01/29 19:27:53
Subject: Man Arrested For Taking Daughters Cell Phone
dogma wrote: Who sets that level? I know plenty of really immature people that qualify as adults.
Agreed that there are many levels of maturity or "competence".
I am sure many would like a mandatory test to see if someone qualifies to become a parent but that is not the case either.
Setting a minimum age or "qualification" makes administering rules easier, everyone is their own special snowflake but cannot always be catered to.
Age of sexual consent, marriageable age, school leaving age, drinking age, driving age, voting age, smoking age... certain levels of age set to ensure some kind of minimum distribution of maturity.
Age of majority is 18 in most states of the USA = legal adult.
I am sure we could do away with the age requirement and setup some right / trial of adulthood a person would have to pass.
It is all well and good to not agree to something but it would be beneficial to suggest an alternative.
Say like with standardized testing in school, you would have a series of tests to see if you have sufficient knowledge to function as an adult.
If my son had his way, he would be more than happy to spend the multiple thousands put in "his" account for his education and spend them for his needs now (Pokémon, Steam games...).
All in all, the girl in this case was not a legal adult so "her" property was not hers BUT her other guardian could state it was "her" property (not the daughter's) that was confiscated and she would be within her rights to require it back. Fun times. Remind me to never get divorced.
A revolution is an idea which has found its bayonets.
Napoleon Bonaparte
2016/01/29 19:32:53
Subject: Man Arrested For Taking Daughters Cell Phone
I listened to an interesting article a couple days ago that talked about at least one state that had legislation introduced to raise the "charged as an adult" age above 18. There is a lot of science out there about brain development and impulse control and how it's not nearly done developing at 18 years of age.
2016/01/29 19:57:50
Subject: Man Arrested For Taking Daughters Cell Phone
d-usa wrote: I listened to an interesting article a couple days ago that talked about at least one state that had legislation introduced to raise the "charged as an adult" age above 18. There is a lot of science out there about brain development and impulse control and how it's not nearly done developing at 18 years of age.
In all honesty, looking back, I think I achieved a reasonable level of maturity at around 28, late bloomer or not?
I would say that is the time I could take-on pretty much anything and stopped blaming outside causes for my difficulties.
As has been pointed out, it may vary wildly for others.
A revolution is an idea which has found its bayonets.
Napoleon Bonaparte
2016/01/29 22:10:08
Subject: Man Arrested For Taking Daughters Cell Phone
Setting a minimum age or "qualification" makes administering rules easier...
I'm not certain that it does, because in the US it isn't uniform. You've got differing ages of majority, differing ages of consent (That themselves vary according to sexuality and marriage status.), drinking ages that are "enforced", various dropout ages, various emancipation ages...a whole lot of frangibility.
Life does not cease to be funny when people die any more than it ceases to be serious when people laugh.
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Dark Eldar Webway Corsairs 2000pts / 
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