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 Chapter Master Angelos wrote:

 Ignatius wrote:

 Commissar Terrence wrote:

 Gargantuan wrote:
A termie is softer than a land raider and according to GWs own fluff an Abrams MBT has 3-4 times more effective armour than a land raider depending on if it's a shaped charge or kinetic projectile. Most modern anti tank weapons would have no problem penetrating terminator armour.

Wait, what? Now were saying a ancient tank is capable of destroying a heavily armoured moving fortress. But a amazingly powerful laser cannon cannot pierce the armour 5/6 times it shoot's at it.

Don't take this the wrong way- but it doesn't really sound like you know what you're talking about in terms of a modern military's equipment. Go watch a video of an M1A2 Abrams shooting a super-SABOT and what happens to it's target. Vaktathi's got it pretty much nailed down.

One point I'd like to make about the comparison between in game battle tanks and modern ones- notice that tanks like the Leman Russ in the game use a large blast to denote the explosion caused by their shells impacting. That's not how real modern tank projectiles work- like at all. Even HEAT rounds aren't designed to explode and produce shrapnel for the purposes of defeating anything but very light tanks and heavy APC's. Just an observation.

Thats why the Leman Russ has the Vanquisher anti tank variant, that fires effectively HEAT, as it is a direct shot high Armor Penetration round.

Very few Tanks in 40k rely on blast weapons for anti armor weaponry.

Now trying to compare a Russ to an Abrams based on what the Abrams can do to /current/ armor, is not an apt comparison when you bring into fact Imperial "regressed technology" has regressed to a point that is still thousands upon thousands of years in our future.

You mean...to a point where a Leman Russ couldn't actually physically work?

The thing has zero suspension capability...at all, its turret is so small it couldn't contain both armor and the breach of a battlecannon, much less a crew, ammunition, equipment, etc. Even GW and FW's own drawings of the interior of a Russ show the breech extending so far as to obstruct the entirety of the single turret hatch to the point where a tank commander sitting out of the hatch would have to be goddamn Gumby to actually do so

The whole 40k universe is like this. Ever see a Marine with an extra magazine? Why on earth is the Magazine on some bolters so far forward as to be feeding into the muzzle brake? Can you imagine a Land Raider trying to cross anything but clear and level road with zero suspension and zero ground clearance?

Then we get into the myriad of weapons that exist in the 40k universe with direct equivalents to real world weapons and far worse. Are Ork Rokkits really *that* advanced that there's nothing the real world has to match them? They seem to penetrate power armor and Space Marine tanks just fine. We have autocannons in todays world, we know what they're capable of, and it happens to be exactly about what they're capable of in 40k.

Really, we need to realize that 40k is not built on any sort of reality, it's built on rule of cool and that the real world breaks it down very fast.

Termies because NATO lol

 Commissar Terrence wrote:
Check this out (ripped from the lexicanum)

The Vanquisher Cannon is a more complex variant of the Battle cannon mounted on the Leman Russ Vanquisher. Vanquisher cannons have superior accuracy, range and first-hit kill ratios compared to other cannons and are designed to fire specialised anti-tank rounds.[1a][2] Such is the power of the cannon and its ammunition they can even penetrate the thick armour found on Titans,[1a] such as puncturing the neck of a Reaver Battle Titan.


Unlike the battle cannon a Vanquisher cannon can only fire two types of rounds, a high explosive and a special munition called a Vanquisher Shell. Also known as a subcalibre munition or high velocity anti-tank shell, it consists of a solid dart of super density metal surrounded by a lightweight exterior case. A power charge of high energy propellent causes the round to travel at a tremendous velocity down the Vanquisher's long barrel where upon exiting the case falls away, leaving just the dart speeding towards it's target. Typically the dart is only a third of the calibre of the actual shell, but the combination of it's extreme velocity and high density produces tremendous kinetic energy upon impact.

I really don't see your point here. All that description says is "LR Vanquishers use sabot rounds just like real-world tanks". Except in 40k a sabot round (and the special gun to fire it) is rare and priceless technology that only a handful of forge worlds can produce, while in the real world sabot rounds are just standard ammunition that every tank carries.

Sorry we can speculate but as I posted before:

They exist in two different universes with perhaps different laws of physics - in 40k the narrative writes those laws - which can also change to suit the story................. .

The best you can do is decide if the narrative needs the Terminators to destroy the base or not..........

Same with any fictional universe..............

 Mr Morden wrote:
Sorry we can speculate but as I posted before:

They exist in two different universes with perhaps different laws of physics - in 40k the narrative writes those laws - which can also change to suit the story................. .

The best you can do is decide if the narrative needs the Terminators to destroy the base or not..........

Same with any fictional universe..............

We can sticky this F.A.O Commissar Terrance.

It's fun to what if these scenarios but when one party is totally dedicated to the Imperiums propaganda it goes a bit sour.

Although I will say anything that can magically appear in the middle of someone's military base is seriously going to feth things up before being stopped.

An Eldar Avatar however. If that thing appeared in the middle of a creche or nursery 'braying' babies would tear it to shreds and possibly rip out its still beating magma heart..........

Chapter Master Angelos wrote:

 Gargantuan wrote:
A termie is softer than a land raider and according to GWs own fluff an Abrams MBT has 3-4 times more effective armour than a land raider depending on if it's a shaped charge or kinetic projectile. Most modern anti tank weapons would have no problem penetrating terminator armour.

Where does it say the Land raiders armor is that "ineffective". If you're referring to its thickness that means little in this case as we do not know the actual strength of the armor.

The armour thickness in the Forge World source books is stated to be an 'equivalent rolled steel' number.

 Furyou Miko wrote:

Chapter Master Angelos wrote:

 Gargantuan wrote:
A termie is softer than a land raider and according to GWs own fluff an Abrams MBT has 3-4 times more effective armour than a land raider depending on if it's a shaped charge or kinetic projectile. Most modern anti tank weapons would have no problem penetrating terminator armour.

Where does it say the Land raiders armor is that "ineffective". If you're referring to its thickness that means little in this case as we do not know the actual strength of the armor.

The armour thickness in the Forge World source books is stated to be an 'equivalent rolled steel' number.

It has 90mm thick armour that's equivalent to 300mm steel iirc. An Abrams has roughly 1200mm against shaped charges. Whenever GW use numbers they fail miserable. The ork army invading Armageddon is smaller than the soviet army in ww2

We can sticky this F.A.O Commissar Terrance.

Well if were going to say that were comparing the physics and reality of a space marine compared to the real world.... Uh, erm....
(And don't you fething try to even put that finger on the keyboard if you are going to yell at me about how you were trying to cram that into my head for the past few hours.)
I'll get back to you about that

And 1000 space marines per chapter could accomplish nothing on a galactic scale.

If the space marines attempt to attack us then they are bound by our physical laws. And our physical laws would quickly reduce space marines to being very dead as their armour is not actually very good at protecting the person inside it even if the armour itself is very tough.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:
If the space marines attempt to attack us then they are bound by our physical laws. And our physical laws would quickly reduce space marines to being very dead as their armour is not actually very good at protecting the person inside it even if the armour itself is very tough.

If the Space Marines were to attack us, they'd bring Psykers, and we'd fold like flies because we have absolutely no defence. Even if we ignore the really insane feats psykers pull off, they can still mindcontrol our leaders, make our machines and weapons turn on us, cripple us with hallucinations and now apparently even turn the ground under our feet against us.

Disregarding the orbital bombardments of their fleets, of course.

 Ashiraya wrote:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:
If the space marines attempt to attack us then they are bound by our physical laws. And our physical laws would quickly reduce space marines to being very dead as their armour is not actually very good at protecting the person inside it even if the armour itself is very tough.

If the Space Marines were to attack us, they'd bring Psykers, and we'd fold like flies because we have absolutely no defence. Even if we ignore the really insane feats psykers pull off, they can still mindcontrol our leaders, make our machines and weapons turn on us, cripple us with hallucinations and now apparently even turn the ground under our feet against us.

Disregarding the orbital bombardments of their fleets, of course.

Except psykers don't work in our universe as they violate our physical laws. As do much of Space Marine ships and weaponry. They try to enter the Warp to get to us? Nope, warp doesn't exist. They try to use any FTL technology, including psychic communications? Nope, causality kicks them in the face.

I love the arrogant assumptions of people in this thread who just assume that we know everything about how physics works in our world. XD

So it is a fight that will never happen since they need the Warp to get here.

Seems like a redundant line of thinking...

Besides, 'it can't exist if it doesn't violate the laws of physics' is demonstrably false. Black holes violate conservation laws associated with global symmetries. So for instance, baryon and lepton number are likely not conserved in general.

And black holes do exist.

This means our understanding of physics is limited.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
I love the arrogant assumptions of people in this thread who just assume that we know everything about how physics works in our world. XD

I think the assumption that psychic powers don't exist is a valid one, especially those based on the Warhammer 40K universe.

My dad can beat up your dad.

And don't forget to make the pew-pew noises with your toys.

Because that's all fluff justification is.

Oh, and "Ceramite can bounce anything!" "Nuh-uh!"

Terminators would be hard to take down with anything short of crew operated/ vehicle mounted weapons. Going by the background, Terminator Armor is very durable, the marine inside is basically a tank even naked and and a stormbolter would shred infantry on foot and likely would pop light vehicles, not to mention any heavier weapons/ psychic powers the squad may have and with the powerfist, they can tear through buildings and armor with ease. Giving that terminators can teleport in with little to no warning, the base would be caught off guard and likely would have taken significant casualties before they knew what was going on. That's pretty much how Astartes operate, fast overwhelming attack that spreads chaos among the enemy and then mop up whats left.

HoundsofDemos wrote:
Terminators would be hard to take down with anything short of crew operated/ vehicle mounted weapons. Going by the background, Terminator Armor is very durable, the marine inside is basically a tank even naked and and a stormbolter would shred infantry on foot and likely would pop light vehicles, not to mention any heavier weapons/ psychic powers the squad may have and with the powerfist, they can tear through buildings and armor with ease. Giving that terminators can teleport in with little to no warning, the base would be caught off guard and likely would have taken significant casualties before they knew what was going on. That's pretty much how Astartes operate, fast overwhelming attack that spreads chaos among the enemy and then mop up whats left.

You SEE?! Someone understands the 40k universe!

Abram is a tank outdated by more modern tanks today let alone 40k tanks. I'd put my bets on Challenger II and Leopard II over the Abrams any day particularly in speed armour gun and firecontrol.
None of which has the materials to efficiently deal with the composite supermaterials used in 40k.

Commissar Terrence wrote:

HoundsofDemos wrote:
Terminators would be hard to take down with anything short of crew operated/ vehicle mounted weapons. Going by the background, Terminator Armor is very durable, the marine inside is basically a tank even naked and and a stormbolter would shred infantry on foot and likely would pop light vehicles, not to mention any heavier weapons/ psychic powers the squad may have and with the powerfist, they can tear through buildings and armor with ease. Giving that terminators can teleport in with little to no warning, the base would be caught off guard and likely would have taken significant casualties before they knew what was going on. That's pretty much how Astartes operate, fast overwhelming attack that spreads chaos among the enemy and then mop up whats left.

You SEE?! Someone understands the 40k universe!

Why did you even ask the question in the OP at all if you were just looking for others to justify your position?

ProwlerPC wrote:Abram is a tank outdated by more modern tanks today let alone 40k tanks. I'd put my bets on Challenger II and Leopard II over the Abrams any day particularly in speed armour gun and firecontrol.
None of which has the materials to efficiently deal with the composite supermaterials used in 40k.

This is a joke right? The M1A2 SEP V3 and new M1A3 are the epitome of modern tank design, armor, weapons, and functionality.

 ProwlerPC wrote:
Abram is a tank outdated by more modern tanks today let alone 40k tanks. I'd put my bets on Challenger II and Leopard II over the Abrams any day particularly in speed armour gun and firecontrol.
None of which has the materials to efficiently deal with the composite supermaterials used in 40k.

yes... YES SUPER MATERIALS!!! That's what it was!!!

Last I checked the imperium uses much much stronger materials then we do. Since its straight up fantasy and doesn't exist I reserve my right to call it supermaterials. Which I think accentuates the silliness of this thread.

 ProwlerPC wrote:
Last I checked the imperium uses much much stronger materials then we do. Since its straight up fantasy and doesn't exist I reserve my right to call it supermaterials. Which I think accentuates the silliness of this thread.

I'm not going to argue there. I don't know why I bite on these kinds of threads. My fanboyism for American military machines always comes out and I get blinded by the idea that I have to tell everyone how awesome they are, forgetting its an argument about space magic.

Since we are talking make believe superman or the Hulk would save us.

Again this entire thread is moot, OP does not actually want a discussion just people to agree with him, further more, lore itself is not consistent. It entirely depends on the writer. There are cases of terminators taking massive amounts of damage and walking away with out a scratch, or ripping apart tanks like pealing an orange. Yet we also see terminators being taken down by a single gene stealer or unable to open a bulk head door with out significant effort.

Humbly request three be locked as there is no discussion to be had just OP wanting people to agree with him.

If you want a thread to be locked, just report it. Posting does little.

 Ashiraya wrote:
If you want a thread to be locked, just report it. Posting does little.

I did you thilly

I just posted my reason in a response vs putting all that into the report box

 Furyou Miko wrote:
I love the arrogant assumptions of people in this thread who just assume that we know everything about how physics works in our world. XD

I think the arrogance flows in more than one direction.

 amanita wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
I love the arrogant assumptions of people in this thread who just assume that we know everything about how physics works in our world. XD

I think the arrogance flows in more than one direction.

Babe you light up my world like nobody else?

 Ignatius wrote:

Commissar Terrence wrote:

HoundsofDemos wrote:
Terminators would be hard to take down with anything short of crew operated/ vehicle mounted weapons. Going by the background, Terminator Armor is very durable, the marine inside is basically a tank even naked and and a stormbolter would shred infantry on foot and likely would pop light vehicles, not to mention any heavier weapons/ psychic powers the squad may have and with the powerfist, they can tear through buildings and armor with ease. Giving that terminators can teleport in with little to no warning, the base would be caught off guard and likely would have taken significant casualties before they knew what was going on. That's pretty much how Astartes operate, fast overwhelming attack that spreads chaos among the enemy and then mop up whats left.

You SEE?! Someone understands the 40k universe!

Why did you even ask the question in the OP at all if you were just looking for others to justify your position?

ProwlerPC wrote:Abram is a tank outdated by more modern tanks today let alone 40k tanks. I'd put my bets on Challenger II and Leopard II over the Abrams any day particularly in speed armour gun and firecontrol.
None of which has the materials to efficiently deal with the composite supermaterials used in 40k.

This is a joke right? The M1A2 SEP V3 and new M1A3 are the epitome of modern tank design, armor, weapons, and functionality.

I was going to go with "someone who doesn't know sheepgak from applebutter about modern tanks".

Going by forgeworld info regarding armor, an M1A2 could put a sabot lengthwise through a Landraider. 40K is pretty fascinating, that 40,000 years into the future they've taken huge leaps backwards in technology, because heresy and all that. But, it works to keep stuff from getting too ridiculous, and making small scale human or superhuman combat possible, even fun. Hell, I could see several thousand points of anything 40k against a self-aware tank with armor effectiveness measured in meters and a fusion-powered main gun that can knock down orbiting frigates. But, we don't go down that road, so it's workable. Not 100% balanced, but workable.



Sure, the termies would cause a hell of a lot of casualties before someone at the ASP loaded up some Javelins. Once that's done, it's all over for the termie squad.