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Fire dragons kill iks better than anything i have.

Fragons on foot? Lolno they're dead.

Fragons from a Serpent? Costs more than podded vets. Better firepower, but getting into place is harder.

Fragons in a WWP Archon unit? Sure. Because obviously that's a CWE option.

The WK is hard to kill. But so is an IK.

Bharring wrote:Fragons from a Serpent? Costs more than podded vets. Better firepower, but getting into place is harder.

Did you write that with a straight face?

I bet you're still giggling quietly to yourself, aren't you?

Traditio wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:and what about every other army in the game that doesn't have grav?

Or space marine players who simply prefer not to field grav?

If a particular bit of wargear has become an "auto-take necessity," there's an obvious game imbalance.

I'm with Martel. Anything below 400 points for a wraithknight is simply a non-starter for discussion.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

jade_angel wrote:
And saying IK weapons suck relative to heavy wraithcannons isn't quite blanket true. The heavy wraithcannons are better for knocking holes in superheavies, MCs and GCs, true. The IK's guns are worse at dealing with tough singletons, but much better at dealing with groups. So, different guns for different purposes, no? That does give the WK the edge in a head-to-head contest, though.

IKs don't have the "jump" special rule.

I figured 395 was about right for the suncannon WK, so, broadly agreed on cost.

How is the fact that IKs don't have "Jump" relevant to anything I said? The WK gets to reroll its charge distances, which is pretty significant, but I was talking about their guns, not their CC capabilities. (They both move 12" anyway because both SHWs and GCs move 12" base).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Traditio wrote:

Bharring wrote:Fragons from a Serpent? Costs more than podded vets. Better firepower, but getting into place is harder.

Did you write that with a straight face?

I bet you're still giggling quietly to yourself, aren't you?

Harder than with a pod? Yes. Practically impossible? Well, hell no, obviously - Serpents are pretty tough. (But for their cost, they probably should be. I swear people think Eldar are getting a 12/12/10 fast skimmer transport for the price of a Rhino. They're not.)

jade_angel wrote:I figured 395 was about right for the suncannon WK, so, broadly agreed on cost.

How is the fact that IKs don't have "Jump" relevant to anything I said? The WK gets to reroll its charge distances, which is pretty significant, but I was talking about their guns, not their CC capabilities. (They both move 12" anyway because both SHWs and GCs move 12" base).

It just strikes me as a strange consideration to assert that IKs are better for crowd control. WK can do crowd control in a pinch. Jump, swing, stomp.

Jump doesn't matter in that case unless you're talking about the rerollable charge distance. That is literally the only thing the WK has over the IK for melee crowd control. Both can move 12", both can assault, both have Stomp, both have Hammer of Wrath and the same number of attacks.

Which means that, although the WK isn't helpless at crowd control, the IK - with large blast or large volume guns - does it better.

jade_angel wrote:Harder than with a pod? Yes. Practically impossible? Well, hell no, obviously - Serpents are pretty tough. (But for their cost, they probably should be. I swear people think Eldar are getting a 12/12/10 fast skimmer transport for the price of a Rhino. They're not.)

Sorry, just the undertones/insinuations of Bharring's post made it SOUND like:

"Oh, boo hoo, as an Eldar player, it's SO hard to get this wave serpent where I want it and maneuvre my troops. Oh woe is me and my wave serpents that just can't seem to reach their destination."

I bet Bharring disturbed everyone in the house, probably his whole neighborhood, with the sheer lol-fest he had when he wrote that line.

Bharring wrote:
Fragons on foot? Lolno they're dead.

Fragons from a Serpent? Costs more than podded vets. Better firepower, but getting into place is harder.

Fragons in a WWP Archon unit? Sure. Because obviously that's a CWE option.

The WK is hard to kill. But so is an IK.

I don't see wks going down to scatterlaser side glances. AV 12 sides make iks quite vulnerable.

Personal much?

The question is if Fragons kill IKs better than anything SM has.

To that, I pointed out:
-on foot isn't happening.
-WWP isn't a CWE thing
-Serpent has an upside (marginally better damage) and some downsides (higher cost, not as auto-win) as compared to podded Vets.


I used no modifiers to imply that it couldn't be done with Serpents. I merely stated that podded vets are easier to get into place.

There is a world of difference between "not as easy" and "practically impossible". I wasn't trolling, and nothing in what I wrote should have given that impression.

I don't get how you read it with that tone.

The fact remains that podded melts is easier to bring to bear, and cheaper, with only a small difference in firepower (about 10-15% per model, not per cost).

Yeah, that does. I'd be interested if anyone's played with/against the new FW knight that has 14/13/13 armor. That seems potentially pretty mean.

Also, there's the new psychic power that improves all facings by +1. The Empire^WImperium strikes back?

Bharring wrote:-Serpent has an upside (marginally better damage) and some downsides (higher cost, not as auto-win) as compared to podded Vets.

"Not auto-win" is not a downside.

I know that is a novel, earth-shattering concept for an Eldar player.

But just to repeat:

"Not auto-win" is not a downside.

Oh boo hoo.

SLs will have a 1/12 chance to take a HP on side armor.

Compared to the WK's 1/27, yeah wow scary side armor shots.

Granted, you could also compare the WK's 1/27 chance of taking a wound to the face to the IK's 0 chance on front armor.

Or the 1/27 chance from a HB or Pulse Rifle vs 0 on side armor for the IK.

Or the S5-6 CC attacks that have 1/27 or 1/9 chance to wound a WK but a 0 chance to hurt a WK.

But the best comparison is the about 1/2 or 2/3 chance Grav has to hurt a WK compared to 1/6 or 1/12 chance to hurt an IK.

But sure. One weapon much better in certain circumstances to hurt an IK than WK. Those things go both ways.

I didn't get that from your post.

Ws and fire dragons is the kind of investment i would expect to down a knight.

Bharring wrote:
Oh boo hoo.

SLs will have a 1/12 chance to take a HP on side armor.

1. Scatter bikes have the relentless special rule.
2. Any one scatter bike fires 4 shots per turn at 36 inch range.

That's one hull point per scat bike squad.

What are you saying, Trad? That Serpent-based Fragons are better than podded Malta, because not being auto-win (in regards to bringing guns to bear) isn't a downside? So Serpent Fragons are better than podded Melta because podded Melta is autowin?

I think you are confused.

Bharring wrote:
What are you saying, Trad? That Serpent-based Fragons are better than podded Malta, because not being auto-win (in regards to bringing guns to bear) isn't a downside? So Serpent Fragons are better than podded Melta because podded Melta is autowin?

I think you are confused.

I'm not saying that Serpent-based falcons are better, worse or the same as podded melta. I'm just pointing out that your language and undertones are ridiculous (and stereotypical of eldar players).

Furthermore, I wish to point out:

1. Podded melta costs 32 ppm.

2. Podded melta is one use per game.

3. Podded melta does not have assured destruction.

4. Podded melta does not have battle focus.

5. Podded melta does not fire at BS 5.

1) Serpent-based Fragons are what, 44ppm in a Serpent? (The Pod brings the SM to 35ppm)
2) If Fragons aren't one-use-only, your opponent is doing something wrong. T4 vs T3 is a big difference, but both are suicides.
3) That was mentioned. A 4/6 chance vs a 5/6 chance to do +d3 wounds is about a 15% difference. That's per-model, not per-cost.
4) Battle Focus is needed to get in range if using a Serpent (unless your opponent t is stupid). Without that, you don't get Melts range.
5) Fragons in Serpents only get BS5 in a formation. So we might as well be talking Skyhammer Devs if we're talking BS5 dragons. On top of rerolling 1s to hit or some other shenanigans.

The only dismissiveness was with foot dragons. I don't think anyone needed that explained.

I think you're just prejudiced against Eldar players, and the problem wasn't my tone.

I'm willing to say they both are good at downing an ik. My issue is that neither would do jack to a wk. And too many other units like scat bikes and hornets just lol the ik off the table.

Bharring wrote:
1) Serpent-based Fragons are what, 44ppm in a Serpent? (The Pod brings the SM to 35ppm)
2) If Fragons aren't one-use-only, your opponent is doing something wrong. T4 vs T3 is a big difference, but both are suicides.
3) That was mentioned. A 4/6 chance vs a 5/6 chance to do +d3 wounds is about a 15% difference. That's per-model, not per-cost.
4) Battle Focus is needed to get in range if using a Serpent (unless your opponent t is stupid). Without that, you don't get Melts range.
5) Fragons in Serpents only get BS5 in a formation. So we might as well be talking Skyhammer Devs if we're talking BS5 dragons. On top of rerolling 1s to hit or some other shenanigans.

The only dismissiveness was with foot dragons. I don't think anyone needed that explained.

I think you're just prejudiced against Eldar players, and the problem wasn't my tone.

A SM Drop pod costs 35pts, divided by the 5 models inside makes each model 39pts a model not 35, unless they are bringing 10 models which would be a waste and rather silly. Furthermore your not counting into that equation what your getting with your transport Marines get a storm bolter and an immobilized vehicle. Eldar get a wave serpeant

Fire Dragons don't need changing, I'm just tackling the units that are TOO strong not that are just strong

That's why it's Wraithknights, d-scythes, Windriders, warp spiders and with as little change as possible

Lets not start throwing around insults based on what type of toy soldiers you push around the battlefield


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Back to wraithknights, do you know what causes problems, lots of plasma guns, I have played against guard where the wraithknight has been downed by veterans with plasma.

It is not too hard to take down a wraithknight just it needs to be more points so the opponent can combat it and not very steam rolled

 Korlandril wrote:
Fire Dragons don't need changing, I'm just tackling the units that are TOO strong not that are just strong

That's why it's Wraithknights, d-scythes, Windriders, warp spiders and with as little change as possible

Lets not start throwing around insults based on what type of toy soldiers you push around the battlefield

Sorry but firedragons are part of the cheese fest, I know as an Eldar player you don't like the idea that your army is considered Easy mode by a big portion of the gaming community, but they are.

Firedragons would be fine and dandy if they were just regular melta toting Eldar. Instead they have BS5 in a formation and they are the only unit in the game I know of that is AP0.

Vehicles in this game are already weak enough, but to give them +3 (+4 if open topped) on the damage chart is just ridiculous.

SemperMortis wrote:

 Korlandril wrote:
Fire Dragons don't need changing, I'm just tackling the units that are TOO strong not that are just strong

That's why it's Wraithknights, d-scythes, Windriders, warp spiders and with as little change as possible

Lets not start throwing around insults based on what type of toy soldiers you push around the battlefield

Sorry but firedragons are part of the cheese fest, I know as an Eldar player you don't like the idea that your army is considered Easy mode by a big portion of the gaming community, but they are.

Firedragons would be fine and dandy if they were just regular melta toting Eldar. Instead they have BS5 in a formation and they are the only unit in the game I know of that is AP0.

Vehicles in this game are already weak enough, but to give them +3 (+4 if open topped) on the damage chart is just ridiculous.

Well take them out before they get to your vehicles? If you let any melta unit get close to your vehicles that vehicle is going to die whether it has ap 0 or not

You also realise that the difference between ap1 and ap0 is miniscule as is BS5 and BS4?

 Korlandril wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:

 Korlandril wrote:
Fire Dragons don't need changing, I'm just tackling the units that are TOO strong not that are just strong

That's why it's Wraithknights, d-scythes, Windriders, warp spiders and with as little change as possible

Lets not start throwing around insults based on what type of toy soldiers you push around the battlefield

Sorry but firedragons are part of the cheese fest, I know as an Eldar player you don't like the idea that your army is considered Easy mode by a big portion of the gaming community, but they are.

Firedragons would be fine and dandy if they were just regular melta toting Eldar. Instead they have BS5 in a formation and they are the only unit in the game I know of that is AP0.

Vehicles in this game are already weak enough, but to give them +3 (+4 if open topped) on the damage chart is just ridiculous.

Well take them out before they get to your vehicles? If you let any melta unit get close to your vehicles that vehicle is going to die whether it has ap 0 or not

You also realise that the difference between ap1 and ap0 is miniscule as is BS5 and BS4?

The difference between BS4 and BS5 is 1/6 more hits. the difference between AP0 and AP1 is +1 on the damage chart, so you went from explodes results on a 5+ to a 4+ or another way to put it you just increased the chance to explode by 1/6th again.

6 Marines with meltas will hit 4 times, they have a very good chance to pen any vehicle type, but for the sake of this little scenario lets call it AV12. so on 2D6 they have a 2/3rd ish change to pen. so about 2 pens, they are AP1 so +2 meaning 5+ to explode, they have a 1/3rd chance to expode on 2 shots, so pretty good odds.

6 Fire Dragons on the other hand hit 5 times, same chances to pen so 2/3 meaning 3-4 pens, lets say 3 because we are being generous. They are +3 on the chart so 4+ or in other words 50/50 to explode on 2 shots.

That is the difference. And as far as taking out the firedragons before they get to my vehicles? well your transport is a jinking transport and the best ranged firepower I have is Lootas....so yeah not going to happen.

My point is that they would be fine as regular Melta, but Eldar all have to be special snowflakes so they got all those bonuses.

+2 on the chart vs +3 is actually huge. With +2, you are almost as likely to HP out a vehicle as you are explode it. Against IK, the necessity of an explodes results is even higher. +3 generates 50% more explodes results than +2. That is not miniscule.

SemperMortis wrote:

Spoiler:

 Korlandril wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:

 Korlandril wrote:
Fire Dragons don't need changing, I'm just tackling the units that are TOO strong not that are just strong

That's why it's Wraithknights, d-scythes, Windriders, warp spiders and with as little change as possible

Lets not start throwing around insults based on what type of toy soldiers you push around the battlefield

Sorry but firedragons are part of the cheese fest, I know as an Eldar player you don't like the idea that your army is considered Easy mode by a big portion of the gaming community, but they are.

Firedragons would be fine and dandy if they were just regular melta toting Eldar. Instead they have BS5 in a formation and they are the only unit in the game I know of that is AP0.

Vehicles in this game are already weak enough, but to give them +3 (+4 if open topped) on the damage chart is just ridiculous.

Well take them out before they get to your vehicles? If you let any melta unit get close to your vehicles that vehicle is going to die whether it has ap 0 or not

You also realise that the difference between ap1 and ap0 is miniscule as is BS5 and BS4?

The difference between BS4 and BS5 is 1/6 more hits. the difference between AP0 and AP1 is +1 on the damage chart, so you went from explodes results on a 5+ to a 4+ or another way to put it you just increased the chance to explode by 1/6th again.

6 Marines with meltas will hit 4 times, they have a very good chance to pen any vehicle type, but for the sake of this little scenario lets call it AV12. so on 2D6 they have a 2/3rd ish change to pen. so about 2 pens, they are AP1 so +2 meaning 5+ to explode, they have a 1/3rd chance to expode on 2 shots, so pretty good odds.

6 Fire Dragons on the other hand hit 5 times, same chances to pen so 2/3 meaning 3-4 pens, lets say 3 because we are being generous. They are +3 on the chart so 4+ or in other words 50/50 to explode on 2 shots.

That is the difference. And as far as taking out the firedragons before they get to my vehicles? well your transport is a jinking transport and the best ranged firepower I have is Lootas....so yeah not going to happen.

My point is that they would be fine as regular Melta, but Eldar all have to be special snowflakes so they got all those bonuses.

Dude its not that bad, orks obviously need buffing that's more of a problem, couldn't you use a cheap unit to bubble wrap your vehicles anyway?

 Korlandril wrote:
Fire Dragons don't need changing, I'm just tackling the units that are TOO strong not that are just strong

A tactical marine with a meltagun is 24 ppm. Add meltabombs and we're at 29 ppm.

Back to wraithknights, do you know what causes problems, lots of plasma guns, I have played against guard where the wraithknight has been downed by veterans with plasma.

Plasma weapons 1. wound on 5s, 2. get hot and 3. do not bypass the FNP.

Let's do the math, assuming a tactical marine:

2/3 (to hit) X 1/3 (to wound) X 2/3 (FNP) X 1/6 (6 wounds) = 4/162 (2/81)

It would take 81/2 plasma shots to take down a wraithknight.

Of those 81/2 plasma shots, 81/2 X 1/6 (81/12 or 6 3/4), would get hot. Of those 6 3/4 gets hot results, 81/12 X 1/3 (81/36, or 2 1/4) would result in plasma gun marine suicide.

"Lots of plasma guns" indeed!

It is not too hard to take down a wraithknight just it needs to be more points so the opponent can combat it and not very steam rolled

I have a better idea. Leave the wraithknight and your other shenanigans on the shelf and play fair.

Dude its not that bad, orks obviously need buffing that's more of a problem, couldn't you use a cheap unit to bubble wrap your vehicles anyway?

Do you bubble wrap your Wraith Knights? do you bubble Wrap any vehicles in your lists? no, you know why? the only time its feasible to bubblewrap is when your fielding a mechanized army with lots of vehicles. The only vehicles the orks have are pathetically weak and don't need bubble wrap because by doing so your tying up even more of your armies points in protecting garbage. The only vehicle in the codex you can field and be competitive is Trukks/BW anything else (walkers/FLyers) Suck.

Im sorry, i dont want to come across as rude to you, but I get tired of players trying to "Help" me with my army when they have no idea how to even play orks and think that Orks can be competitive if you just "L2P". "Get gud" "add in allies" "use cover" "take more trukkz" "Boyz before toyz" "Shoot the choppy, chop the shooty".

Those comments are about as productive as me saying Tyranids are the best army in the game and need to be nerfed.

Traditio wrote:

 Korlandril wrote:
Fire Dragons don't need changing, I'm just tackling the units that are TOO strong not that are just strong

A tactical marine with a meltagun is 24 ppm. Add meltabombs and we're at 29 ppm.

Well... Let's see. Fire Dragons have the same WS/BS, and one higher I and Ld. Marines have +1S/T. Both have Sv 3+. Dragons have Battle Focus and Fleet. Marines have ATSKNF and Chapter Tactics, frag and krak grenades. Krak doesn't matter mostly because Dragons have melta bombs, but those also make their +1I irrelevant except for Sweeping Advance checks (where Marines have the edge anyway due to ATSKNF).

Yeah, I suppose Fire Dragons are a bit too cheap even if we omit Assured Destruction. 25ppm would be about right, no?

Also, what counts as playing fair by your standards for Eldar?

jade_angel wrote:Yeah, I suppose Fire Dragons are a bit too cheap even if we omit Assured Destruction. 25ppm would be about right, no?

The meltaguns and meltabombs alone are worth 15 ppm. Assured destruction + the other fire dragon abilities and statline = 10 points?

Traditio wrote:

 Korlandril wrote:
Fire Dragons don't need changing, I'm just tackling the units that are TOO strong not that are just strong

A tactical marine with a meltagun is 24 ppm. Add meltabombs and we're at 29 ppm.

Back to wraithknights, do you know what causes problems, lots of plasma guns, I have played against guard where the wraithknight has been downed by veterans with plasma.

Plasma weapons 1. wound on 5s, 2. get hot and 3. do not bypass the FNP.

Let's do the math, assuming a tactical marine:

2/3 (to hit) X 1/3 (to wound) X 2/3 (FNP) X 1/6 (6 wounds) = 4/162 (2/81)

It would take 81/2 plasma shots to take down a wraithknight.

Of those 81/2 plasma shots, 81/2 X 1/6 (81/12 or 6 3/4), would get hot. Of those 6 3/4 gets hot results, 81/12 X 1/3 (81/36, or 2 1/4) would result in plasma gun marine suicide.

"Lots of plasma guns" indeed!

It is not too hard to take down a wraithknight just it needs to be more points so the opponent can combat it and not very steam rolled

I have a better idea. Leave the wraithknight and your other shenanigans on the shelf and play fair.

That's the problem with having a basic understanding of maths you don't quite understand what you are doing

The average result in this case is almost irrelevant on its own it's more about its distribution across possible wounds, but I'm not going to explain that to you

Try and keep on topic