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 Ankhalagon wrote:

If it is supposed to fly, adding anything to the outside will prevent it from flying

Orks.....
"Look Boss! Teh Bigmek has built a wreckinball on the Dakkajet!!!"

orks bein psychic though means if they think it will work it probably will. there was a bit in the 4th edition ork codex about a warboss with a particularly deadly gun that when the imperium got ahold of it all it was a fancy wooden box with some bolls and screws jangling around in it and a barrel sticking out.

Yeah, that gestalt psychic field is pretty potent. Not universe breaking, but enough to make the implausible plausible.

Could machine spirits be daemons in disguise?

 mondo80 wrote:
Could machine spirits be daemons in disguise?

No.

 Ankhalagon wrote:

 mondo80 wrote:
Could machine spirits be daemons in disguise?

No.

As far as the Imperium is concerned, it's unequivocally 'No'. For tose who have fallen to the Ruinous Powers, it's a possibility.

it is why I think that the Dwemer went extinct in the Elder Scrolls. Everything they had was on a wireless network, including their security systems. Eventually, they lost access to them, and their guardians no longer saw them as a 'protected species'.

Look at the parallel today, how devices don't come with directions anymore, but rather are accessed through the cloud. If you don't have access immediately, how do you get your first device set up?

Or, first Gen, 'Oh crap, we lost access to our security protocols. But our guardians still recognize ourselves and our children.'
Second Gen, 'Mom, Dad, what was the system that allowed you to set the IFFs on the guardians?' *shrugs*
Third Gen, don't get to say anything as they are killed at delivery by the guardians. . .

 mondo80 wrote:
Could machine spirits be daemons in disguise?

you get that there is no Machine Spirit right? Its jsut the people thinking there is one that needs appeasing right?

TheWanderer wrote:

 mondo80 wrote:
Could machine spirits be daemons in disguise?

you get that there is no Machine Spirit right? Its jsut the people thinking there is one that needs appeasing right?

I think that's a matter of headcanon. Certain novels (e.g. Baneblade by Guy Haley) have machine-spirits capable of physically altering the structure of the tank to better destroy its opponents (when the Shadowsword self-destructs to kill all the Orks because the Machine-Spirit breached the capacitor's shielding - the literal metal box around the capacitor). Other novels, such as Titanicus, have Machine-Spirits that are more animalistic but also more capable than their human counterparts (such as when the princeps of Legio Tempestus (iirc) gives into the Manifold, allowing the machine-spirit of his Titan full control over its weapons and the weapons of the Titans around it, which fire with mechanical precision into a single section of the renegade Imperator's void shielding, collapsing it instantly). Still further novels have self-aware artificial intelligences (the Castigator-class autonomous bipedal weapons platforms) which are capable of being possessed by daemons but are distinctly different, going so far as being described as having the same effect on the warp as a psychic 'null' (the novel Dark Adeptus features this heavily). Lastly, there is also some indication that machine-spirits do not exist and are merely ritual, as you mention.

It depends on what you believe.*shrug* But to categorically say that Machine Spirits don't exist is to be sorely mistaken, and most likely killed by one for offending it (much like the Orks in the novel Baneblade, actually).

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

TheWanderer wrote:

 mondo80 wrote:
Could machine spirits be daemons in disguise?

you get that there is no Machine Spirit right? Its jsut the people thinking there is one that needs appeasing right?

I think that's a matter of headcanon. Certain novels (e.g. Baneblade by Guy Haley) have machine-spirits capable of physically altering the structure of the tank to better destroy its opponents (when the Shadowsword self-destructs to kill all the Orks because the Machine-Spirit breached the capacitor's shielding - the literal metal box around the capacitor). Other novels, such as Titanicus, have Machine-Spirits that are more animalistic but also more capable than their human counterparts (such as when the princeps of Legio Tempestus (iirc) gives into the Manifold, allowing the machine-spirit of his Titan full control over its weapons and the weapons of the Titans around it, which fire with mechanical precision into a single section of the renegade Imperator's void shielding, collapsing it instantly). Still further novels have self-aware artificial intelligences (the Castigator-class autonomous bipedal weapons platforms) which are capable of being possessed by daemons but are distinctly different, going so far as being described as having the same effect on the warp as a psychic 'null' (the novel Dark Adeptus features this heavily). Lastly, there is also some indication that machine-spirits do not exist and are merely ritual, as you mention.

It depends on what you believe.*shrug* But to categorically say that Machine Spirits don't exist is to be sorely mistaken, and most likely killed by one for offending it (much like the Orks in the novel Baneblade, actually).

Yes there is conflicting fluff on the subject I must admit.

My counter arguement would be that the machine spirit the Legio princeps think they percieve is remenants of corrupted AI or delusions from the mind impulse link. The casigator is also as you say AI and therefore not a machine spirit.

Again the Baneblade dohicky is an automated system in the event of x happening, no need for a quasi religious entity to be invovled, its just thats what 10,000 plus years of dogma and misguided belief has left.

i think ultimately with everything in 40k its whatever suits the particular writer at the time :-)

The Baneblade example is explicitly a Machine-Spirit, which a tech-priest must touch and coax. The tech-priest perceives it as raging and shackled, and has to give it permission to detonate the tank.

It doesn't read like a fail-safe system, especially since it doesn't happen until the Tech-Priest communes with the tank.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
The Baneblade example is explicitly a Machine-Spirit, which a tech-priest must touch and coax. The tech-priest perceives it as raging and shackled, and has to give it permission to detonate the tank.

It doesn't read like a fail-safe system, especially since it doesn't happen until the Tech-Priest communes with the tank.

to be fair I have not read that particular novel so dont know how it was worded but I would be thinking again its the techpriests impression of what he is seeing or talking to, (or whatever) its actually something else.

I will see if I can track it down and look, but I hope you can see my point?

The good ole inconsistancy of 40k :-)

I can see your point.

It is why I mentioned headcanon - whether or not machine spirits are actually "a thing" is entirely dependent on what you have read, how you interpret it, and what you want to believe. That is one of the virtues of 40k canon.

There are rather two kinds of machinespirits.

The real ones, nasty things like in Godmachines, Land Raiders and Sicarans(Basicly a caged A.I.).

And than, the ones in lasrifles, boltguns and toasters(Yeah, well....they are more imagination, than anything.).

 Ankhalagon wrote:
There are rather two kinds of machinespirits.

The real ones, nasty things like in Godmachines, Land Raiders and Sicarans(Basicly a caged A.I.).

And than, the ones in lasrifles, boltguns and toasters(Yeah, well....they are more imagination, than anything.).

mmmm that would work

Remember the Crimson Fists Land Raider that lost its crew and went on rampage solo through an Ork horde, laying waste to everything it came across?

That was funny.

 Ankhalagon wrote:
There are rather two kinds of machinespirits.

The real ones, nasty things like in Godmachines, Land Raiders and Sicarans(Basicly a caged A.I.).

And than, the ones in lasrifles, boltguns and toasters(Yeah, well....they are more imagination, than anything.).

Exactly. People are confusing the two. The first example are real, actual rudimentary A.I. The second are metaphorical tongue in cheek examples of how regressed the Imperium is.

Boltguns and tank transmissions are not Pokemon.

The other source of machine spirits - especially in large war machines - is psychic echoes left by their previous pilots.

Titan manifolds especially are known to be chock full of memory imprints from previous princeps. The most famous being Cadet Hekate's predecessor in Imperius Dictatio, who often helps him out from the manifold.

Anyway, I wouldn't be so eager to dismiss the Machine Spirit. May she or he who has never sworn. begged or pleaded at a device until it works cast the first stone.