Pentagon Report Says Airstrike On Afghan Hospital Wasn't A War Crime

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**kronk**

Kovnik Obama wrote:
kronk wrote:

I have never met a person that uses the phrase "pro tip" that wasn't a complete donkey-cave.

I am not saying that you are an donkey-cave.

However, you are using an donkey-cave's vocabulary.

Skirting rule number 1 like a pro.

Technically correct is best correct.

**AlmightyWalrus**

Are you saying that people who give waiters extra money for their services are donkeycaves? After all, they are pro tipping.

On-topic, I am struck by the complete lack of excuses in this thread compared to the last one. What happened to MSF being the Devil aiding militants?

Pretty sure the US wouldn't target a hospital like this though; if nothing else the PR backlash is really bad.

**Jihadin**

I mention the first go around of this that the Hospital was not marked as such nor was it in the Military maps being used or the targeting map overlay. Sounds like the targeting program is the same as the Javelin (or similar)

**DarkTraveler777**

AlmightyWalrus wrote:
On-topic, I am struck by the complete lack of excuses in this thread compared to the last one. What happened to MSF being the Devil aiding militants?

Pretty sure the US wouldn't target a hospital like this though; if nothing else the PR backlash is really bad.

This struck me as a pretty scummy comment.

The other thread, when this story first broke, had a lot of people shocked that something like this would/could happen. People were looking for reasons, any reasons, why this may have occurred.

Now that the investigation has occurred we have answers. Things got fethed, but the hospital still wasn't maliciously attacked because it was a MSF hospital. Things just went wrong on multiple levels that ended with a very tragic outcome.

But yeah, us blood-thirsty Americans are so callous that we care about PR more than human lives. Great observation! You are on to us, Walrus.

Meanwhile three MSF hospitals have been attacked in Syria since this attack and no one gives a gak because it was Russia/Syria doing the bombing and no real investigation will take place. But us Americans...true heartless devils who investigate our actions, apply consequences to those involved, and create protocols for the future to avoid making such mistakes again. What horrible people we are.

**AlmightyWalrus**

DarkTraveler777 wrote:

But yeah, us blood-thirsty Americans are so callous that we care about PR more than human lives. Great observation! You are on to us, Walrus.

Yes, that's why I explicitly said "if nothing else", you're entirely right. I actually burn American flags in my spare time, strangle bald eagles, and write grisly poems about the evil of the US.

Back in reality, my point was that even if we run with a very unfavourable view of the US, bombing an MSF compound makes no sense, as the PR backlash would be very bad. It's a case of me applying the worst-case scenario, not arguing that the US only cares about PR and not human lives. Even the scummiest of scum, which I do not believe the US to be, would stand to gain little and lose a lot through such an action.

**DarkTraveler777**

Oh no, have I offended you?

Great.

Don't try to pretend your comment was anything other than trolling.

Your "if nothing else" counts for nothing when paired with the sentences above it. You were trolling pure and simple.

**motyak**

If you think another user's post is rude, then use the triangle. Don't be rude at them

**AlmightyWalrus**

I'm pretty sure trying to offend someone on purpose is against the forum rules somehow, even when failing. Regardless, I'm not the one calling someone else's posts "scummy".

I really do not care what you feel was the point of my post, because I am in the unique position of knowing for certain my own intentions. The first paragraph is me mocking the people who refused to believe that the military had fethed up and that MSF totally were hiding militants. The second paragraph, separated from the first because it's not part of the same argument, is me saying I doubt the military hit the hospital on purpose, because even if we disregarded all other reasons why it'd be bad (i.e. "if nothing else", like I explicitly said), there still would be no gain and lots to lose. You're reading things that aren't there.

**DarkTraveler777**

Oh I never intended to offend you, I intended to call you out on your blatant trolling.

I just was happy that I offended you, (as I said, it's GREAT!) and seeing you twist and turn to try and not look like an donkey-cave with your follow up posts is pretty amusing too.

Yes, people were trying to find justification in the other thread for why a hospital might have been attacked by a US warplane.

But what you did in your post is despicable in that you are trying to score political points against people through this tragedy.

You. Are. A. Troll.

Just own up to it.

**AlmightyWalrus**

I'll totally own up to feeling some Schadenfreude due to having been right all along. That's hardly trolling, and it sure as he'll isn't arguing that the US is "bloodthirsty".

**DarkTraveler777**

AlmightyWalrus wrote:
I'll totally own up to feeling some Schadenfreude due to having been right all along.

Thanks, you proved me right about you as well.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:
That's hardly trolling, and it sure as he'll isn't arguing that the US is "bloodthirsty".

No, it is trolling.

You are gloating about a military screw up that cost people lives. Further, you are gloating to strangers, on the internet, that you were "right" about a situation that involved a hospital being blown up. Wow! That takes... a special kind of person.

And while you may not be directly arguing that the US is blood thirsty, the implication sure is there.

**d-usa**

There was a ton of implication that the US couldn't possibly screw up like this in the original thread, and even more implication that it was the hospitals own damn fault for getting their staff killed because that's what we do when you aid the enemy.

There isn't really any gloating about the screwup on this thread though.

**DarkTraveler777**

d-usa wrote:
There was a ton of implication that the US couldn't possibly screw up like this in the original thread, and even more implication that it was the hospitals own damn fault for getting their staff killed because that's what we do when you aid the enemy.

Yeah, and that was ugly. I personally think that some of the more outlandish theories were based on shock at what happened rather than malicious patriotism or something.

d-usa wrote:
There isn't really any gloating about the screwup on this thread though.

Really?

This strikes me as gloating.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:
I am struck by the complete lack of excuses in this thread compared to the last one. What happened to MSF being the Devil aiding militants?

AlmightyWalrus wrote:
I'll totally own up to feeling some Schadenfreude due to having been right all along.

If Walrus really wanted to address the lack of excuses in this thread there are many, many other ways to do so with out being needlessly antagonistic.

I'll amend this to state my opinion that Walrus didn't want to really comment on the lack of excuses in this thread, but rather his comment was meant to thumb his nose at those who were wrong about the situation in the other thread. What is that other than gloating?

**motyak**

You two better knock it off, or you won't be posting in the OT for a while

**Jihadin**

Massive screw up on both sides. Enough said.

**CptJake**

Jihadin wrote:
Massive screw up on both sides. Enough said.

Yeah. And not that it justifies/mitigates/excuses any of the mistakes on our guys' side, but Doctors Without Borders seems to have been taking a beating in Syria lately too. Looks like a couple groups have specifically been targeting hospitals there in the last couple of months. Bad stuff. Gonna get worse there before it gets better.

**AlmightyWalrus**

Jihadin wrote:
Massive screw up on both sides. Enough said.

I'm struggling to see how this was in any way MSFs fault when the Pentagon hasn't blamed them in the report.

**Kanluwen**

AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Jihadin wrote:
Massive screw up on both sides. Enough said.

I'm struggling to see how this was in any way MSFs fault when the Pentagon hasn't blamed them in the report.

By "both sides", he likely is referring to the US(who provided the strike) and the local forces on the ground who were supposedly directing the strike.

**AlmightyWalrus**

Kanluwen wrote:
AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Jihadin wrote:
Massive screw up on both sides. Enough said.

I'm struggling to see how this was in any way MSFs fault when the Pentagon hasn't blamed them in the report.

By "both sides", he likely is referring to the US(who provided the strike) and the local forces on the ground who were supposedly directing the strike.

Ah, fair enough. I stand corrected.

**CptJake**

AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Jihadin wrote:
Massive screw up on both sides. Enough said.

I'm struggling to see how this was in any way MSFs fault when the Pentagon hasn't blamed them in the report.

Has the actual report been released?

Any one have a link if it has been?

**djones520**

https://www6.centcom.mil/foia_rr/FOIA_RR.asp?Path=/5%20USC%20552%28a%29%282%29%28D%29Records&Folder=1.%20Airstrike%20on%20the%20MSF%20Trauma%20Center%20in%20Kunduz%20Afghanistan%20-%203%20Oct%202015

**CptJake**

djones520 wrote:
https://www6.centcom.mil/foia_rr/FOIA_RR.asp?Path=/5%20USC%20552%28a%29%282%29%28D%29Records&Folder=1.%20Airstrike%20on%20the%20MSF%20Trauma%20Center%20in%20Kunduz%20Afghanistan%20-%203%20Oct%202015

Thanks

Jihadin's point is made in the summary:

The investigation also concluded that the MSF Trauma Center did not have an internationally- recognized symbol to identify it as a medical facility, such as a Red Cr ss or Red Crescent that was readily visible to the aircrew at night.

So there were screw ups on both sides.

**slip**

CptJake wrote:
djones520 wrote:
https://www6.centcom.mil/foia_rr/FOIA_RR.asp?Path=/5%20USC%20552%28a%29%282%29%28D%29Records&Folder=1.%20Airstrike%20on%20the%20MSF%20Trauma%20Center%20in%20Kunduz%20Afghanistan%20-%203%20Oct%202015

Thanks

Jihadin's point is made in the summary:

The investigation also concluded that the MSF Trauma Center did not have an internationally- recognized symbol to identify it as a medical facility, such as a Red Cr ss or Red Crescent that was readily visible to the aircrew at night.

So there were screw ups on both sides.

Unfortuntely militants target the Red Cross in Afganistan in part because there is credible evidence the CIA would use the Red Cross as a cover to collect intel.

Not putting any blame on the average American or nothing. Just sucks for everyone.

**d-usa**

CptJake wrote:
djones520 wrote:
https://www6.centcom.mil/foia_rr/FOIA_RR.asp?Path=/5%20USC%20552%28a%29%282%29%28D%29Records&Folder=1.%20Airstrike%20on%20the%20MSF%20Trauma%20Center%20in%20Kunduz%20Afghanistan%20-%203%20Oct%202015

Thanks

Jihadin's point is made in the summary:

The investigation also concluded that the MSF Trauma Center did not have an internationally- recognized symbol to identify it as a medical facility, such as a Red Cr ss or Red Crescent that was readily visible to the aircrew at night.

So there were screw ups on both sides.

I think he also indicated that the military was never notified of the location, but the report found that they were provided with the correct coordinates and had them on record. Due to the urgency of the situation and a change in the original plans the crew ended up not receiving a full briefing, if I understand it correctly, so while the military in general was aware that the hospital was there, the crew of the plane did not know about it.

**Ouze**

One of the things that the US has done that makes me a little queasy was the way the CIA used a vaccinations drive as a cover to infiltrate Osama Bin Laden's compound in Pakistan to get DNA evidence that he was there, prior to the operation to capture/kill him.

I mean, OBL needed to get got, no two ways about it.

However, there was a price to be paid, and that price is being paid by the children that now go unvaccinated and the medical personnel that are now targeted.

**djones520**

slip wrote:
CptJake wrote:
djones520 wrote:
https://www6.centcom.mil/foia_rr/FOIA_RR.asp?Path=/5%20USC%20552%28a%29%282%29%28D%29Records&Folder=1.%20Airstrike%20on%20the%20MSF%20Trauma%20Center%20in%20Kunduz%20Afghanistan%20-%203%20Oct%202015

Thanks

Jihadin's point is made in the summary:

The investigation also concluded that the MSF Trauma Center did not have an internationally- recognized symbol to identify it as a medical facility, such as a Red Cr ss or Red Crescent that was readily visible to the aircrew at night.

So there were screw ups on both sides.

Unfortuntely militants target the Red Cross in Afganistan in part because there is credible evidence the CIA would use the Red Cross as a cover to collect intel.

Not putting any blame on the average American or nothing. Just sucks for everyone.

While I can't go into details, I do want make a point that the Red Crescent doesn't matter all to much to them, as they knew where these hospitals were anyways. The militants would use them (the hospital in question specifically) to receive care, because they knew it was the safest place to get it, without reprisal.

**Jihadin**

Investigation finds that Green Berets fought in Afghan city without proper maps

The Army Special Forces unit that fought its way into the Afghan city of Kunduz after it was seized by the Taliban in October initially did so without proper maps, according to recently declassified documents.

The documents, released last month, were part of a heavily redacted report on the Oct. 3, 2015, bombing of a Doctors Without Borders hospital that killed between 30 and 42 civilians. The investigation, aside from piecing together why an American AC-130U gunship targeted and destroyed a medical facility, revealed a host of issues that beset a small team of Army Special Forces soldiers and their Afghan counterparts as they pushed into a city held by a large Taliban force.

[Pentagon: 2015 strike on Doctors Without Borders hospital in Afghanistan was not a war crime]

On Sept. 28, the Taliban, after a series of concerted attacks, seized Kunduz from Afghan security forces. Roughly a day later, and with just 12 hours of planning, a dozen-man Army Special Forces team, known as an Operational Detachment Alpha or ODA, began pushing into the city alongside its Afghan allies. According to the investigation documents, the team was using a “single” 1:50,000 scale map to “plan and conduct operations in the city.”

According to the report, “technological issues” prevented the production of further “graphics” prior to the start of the operation. U.S. military doctrine holds that large-scale military maps, such as the type used by the ODA team at the start of the Kunduz operation, do not have enough detail for a ground unit to accurately analyze urban areas. To remedy this, units often produce their own maps at much smaller scales — often just labeling satellite imagery with roads and building numbers — to help ground forces navigate. These smaller maps and imagery were unavailable because the printer was only producing “magenta blobs,” according to the report.

Although the unit did not have the right maps, it is likely they had additional capabilities to understand the situation on the battlefield, likely including mapping software known as FalconView, GPS receivers and video feeds broadcast from drones circling overhead.

It wasn’t until Oct. 1 that the Green Berets, as the Army Special Forces are also known, “discovered a comprehensive 1:10,000″ map that apparently had been left behind or given to the Special Forces soldiers by a unit responsible for public works projects. Before the team stumbled upon the new map, it had seen heavy fighting and was responsible for calling in more than a dozen airstrikes during the day.

The German military was responsible for the city and the surrounding area, known as Regional Command North. The U.S. Army and Army National guard also had a significant presence in the city from 2009 to 2012. Army Special Forces also maintained a small base just outside the city, and had done so continuously for some time.

According to Adrian Bonenberger, an Army company commander who was deployed in Kunduz in 2011, his unit had detailed maps and satellite imagery of the city. Bonenberger thinks those maps were not properly handed over to Army Special Forces when regular Army units pulled out in 2012.

“This is indicative of how the United States fights its wars,” Bonenberger said. “It’s a profound flaw in the ‘deployment’ system that encourages unit compartmentalization and limits cross-communication.”

[Green Beret officer blames ‘moral cowardice’ for Doctors Without Borders strike]

In a witness statement, one Green Beret, whose name and rank were redacted, decried his command’s ambivalence toward the situation on the ground, stating that the enemies of the operation were not the Taliban but “a profound lack of strategy.”

Esssshhhh no request for new maps were made

Edit

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/checkpoint/wp/2016/05/09/investigation-finds-that-green-berets-fought-in-afghan-city-without-proper-maps/

**djones520**

I tried to request some maps myself recently from Brigade S2. It was like pulling teeth. It's been several months, and I still haven't gotten them, and there wasn't anything special about them.

Given the nature of SpecOps work, and how rapidly this event sprang up, doesn't at all surprise me that the maps they had weren't "current".