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 Xerics wrote:
No I would just field different units. I have nearly 3 full squads of every unit in my codex save for shining spears and would simply just field something else like scatterbikes, a revenant titan, warp spiders, BS5 Dark reapers, 45 wraithguard, or whatever else I feel like fielding. I haven't limited myself to exactly 2000 points of a single army.

So you would just switch to the other OP cheese fests in your codex. great, I got it, but in regards to WK specifically, would you even bother to field it if it was a walker now instead of a GMC? IE it had AV and could explode so a single lucky Melta shot instead of laughing off 15-20 melta shots as if they were nothing.

I might field one but I would definitely run it differently than I run it now. I would move it more strategically and with support instead of letting it get wiped off the board so easily. It would still have the D cannons so it would still work as a good weapons platform against tanks and such and still be able to handle elite infantry with its star cannons. I would still run it, just How I would use it would change.

 Xerics wrote:
I might field one but I would definitely run it differently than I run it now. I would move it more strategically and with support instead of letting it get wiped off the board so easily. It would still have the D cannons so it would still work as a good weapons platform against tanks and such and still be able to handle elite infantry with its star cannons. I would still run it, just How I would use it would change.

That is true, it does still have OP cheese weapons. I would let it keep the star Cannons and get rid of the D-cannon for the obvious reason that D has no place in 40k except as a super rare commodity, IE SAG or the Vortex Grenade from back in the day.

But yeah, eliminate the ridiculous D Cannon and your left with an over priced vehicle that can field a pair of star Cannons, not exactly that great huh?

If it didnt have the D cannons I would just change it to inferno lances or the Hellstorm template weapon (can't remember what it's called).


Automatically Appended Next Post:
It would still be a SHW so it could still fire all weapons and at different targets.

 Xerics wrote:
If it didnt have the D cannons I would just change it to inferno lances or the Hellstorm template weapon (can't remember what it's called).


Automatically Appended Next Post:
It would still be a SHW so it could still fire all weapons and at different targets.

If it became a SHW then it would also have to go up in price just like every current SHW is more expensive then anything else near its size/capabilities (IE Stompa 770pts for a SHW.)

And What weapons are you talking about? They don't appear in the entry for Wraith Knights, so you can't take them. Your not getting to take extra weapons from what the Eldar Titans currently have, you are limited to your current entry, just changing it from GMC or MC to Walker/SHW.

They are if you have IA11.

https://www.forgeworld.co.uk/en-GB/Skathach-Wraithknight-with-Deathshroud-Cannon

https://www.forgeworld.co.uk/en-GB/Skathach-Wraithknight-with-Inferno-Lances

The IA book even says that these alternate wraithknights can be used in place of a standard wraithknight in the Codex Craftworlds codex.

 Xerics wrote:
They are if you have IA11.

https://www.forgeworld.co.uk/en-GB/Skathach-Wraithknight-with-Deathshroud-Cannon

https://www.forgeworld.co.uk/en-GB/Skathach-Wraithknight-with-Inferno-Lances

The IA book even says that these alternate wraithknights can be used in place of a standard wraithknight in the Codex Craftworlds codex.

True, but I am not talking about FW cheddar, I am talking about Codex Craft world Eldar Gouda. Also, doesn't that prove my point about how stupid the WK is that if you nerf its type to Vehicle and take away its D-Cannons your go to choice changes to FW to give you ridiculously OP weapons?

Are you trying to have fun with your opponent or be a WAAC player? If your a tourny player then by all means do it, but if you are playing for fun I don't know what to tell you.

Forgewrold does not automatically mean cheese. The Inferno Lancers are 36" S8 AP2 Heavy2 Melta weapons. This is hardly a broken weapon. I don't remember exactly what the deathshround cannons have but I know they use the hellstorm template.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
They might have lance too. My book is back home in the US...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ok i was wrong about Inferno lances. They are 36" S8 AP1 Heavy D3+2 Melta. The deathshroud cannons have 2 modes of fire. The first is hellstorm template with S7 AP4 Heavy 1 Monofilament and shred. Its secondary fire is same S and AP with massive Blast 48" Heavy 1 Monofilament and shred.

I wanna know how WKs are vulnerable to poison. How does that make sense???

 slip wrote:
I wanna know how WKs are vulnerable to poison. How does that make sense???

How are necron?

Rihgu wrote:

 slip wrote:
I wanna know how WKs are vulnerable to poison. How does that make sense???

How are necron?

In the 3rd Edition Codex, the excuse is that acid is used or something.

The reason is eldar wraith constructs can still feel things in a legitimate tactile sense. If it damages living tissue, including bone, then it will still hurt the wraithbone. Psychic plastics are NOT metal.

I agree with the daemon engines being monsters, as should the eldar constructs. The big storm surge should be a walker since you can see the pilots aren't hooked into anything to operate them. I only suspend disbelief with the smaller tau walkers becuse it fits the theme of the army when you look at the crisis suits etc. They are all functionally equivalent and the primary detriment of the riptide is how cheap the feel no pain, ion accelerator, and interceptor are as upgrades.

 Ankhalagon wrote:
There where the Bight Stallion and the Towering Destroyer. Not exactly Wraithknights. They where for Epic. Don`t know, if Armourcast had made some.

And yes, the whole tyranidstuff is terrible since 5th edition. They need a complete re-work.

They were Eldar KNIGHTS - the analogues to the Imperial Knights. They weren't WRAITH knights (because they weren't wraith constructs at that point).
The eldar had knight households just like the imperium did - only the eldar knight households tended to come from exodite worlds - where the knights were used in the herding of megafauna.

I'll pipe in and be very honest here.

The whole disparity of MCs/GCs and Walkers of the mundane and superheavy variety is bizarre. I feel, to be honest that MCs/GCs were always intended to be a Tyranid/Daemon thing that has somehow filtered over to other races (Eldar, Dark Eldar, Tau, Grey Knights) in some of the oddest ways.

The whole Wraith construct thing being high toughness MCs? It was neat, but threw their relative power compared to their counterparts well out the window. The logic they gave was that they were too fragile as walkers, coupled with fluff about wraithbone.

But as others have pointed out, claiming it's a MC/GC because it's made of psycho-somatic materials falls flat on its face when you realise everything is made out of those materials. Every tank, flyer and weapon. If anything, let's, at this point ignore the fluff. No more fluff reasoning.

I feel the MC and GC rules are indeed strong...but very definately were intended for Tyranids and Daemons - i.e. the two armies that aren't really known for their vehicles. Daemonic 'vehicles' behave very much like living creatures fluffwise and Tyranids...well...everything is a living creature.

In part, I feel these rules were intended to help balance Nids and Daemons out compared to other races having vehicles which, in some cases can be more durable than MCs.

But then the Eldar situation arose, followed by GKs and Tau. And the 'strong' rules of MCs and GCs found their way into armies that were already strong with vehicles, creating a situation in which they are emphasised even more.

The MC/GC rules...are potent. But I wouldn't go on a limb and say they are OP, broken, ruined 40k forever. Not on their own.

I don't see people up in arms about Hierodules or FW Giant Spawn.

No, the imbalance comes when you put them in an army that is already strong in other aspects - that already has strong vehicles, strong range and strong firepower. At this point they become icing on a very big cake...

I see it as follows to be honest...

Tyranids and Daemons should have MCs/GCs.
CSM have MCs in the shared unit of the Daemon Prince. Daemon Engines should probably be MCs/GCs (and really, should be in the Daemon book and not the CSM book. Give me power armoured elites, not Mechanicum constructs).
Eldar should be vehicles.
GKs should be vehicle based.

Tau Suits - of all varieties should be vehicles. We have an AV system for a reason. I know they thought they were being clever giving them infantry profiles and making them tougher infantry, but let's be honest - it only led to an arms race scaling into Stormsurges. There is no reason vehicles cannot exist with AVs below 10. If the arguement is that they want to keep their durability that they (Crisis suits) had as infantry, you could always make them AV 7 or AV 8 giving a similar scale of protection from small arms.

But really, the main thing?

Points need to be balanced. The main reason the Riptide and WK are so offensive for what they do is that they are ridiculously cheap.

A WK sits around the 300 point mark as a GC. That is insane. Its base stats, weapons and saves are far superior to...say...a Tyranid Hierodule and it's at the point where for a few points more you get a 2 for 1 deal on it.

DarkStarSabre wrote:Points need to be balanced. The main reason the Riptide and WK are so offensive for what they do is that they are ridiculously cheap.

A WK sits around the 300 point mark as a GC. That is insane. Its base stats, weapons and saves are far superior to...say...a Tyranid Hierodule and it's at the point where for a few points more you get a 2 for 1 deal on it.

I completely agree with this.

Consider the fact that a wraithknight is cheaper than an Imperial Knight, even though multiple wounds can't be knocked off of it due to a given result on the vehicle damage table.

If the wraithknight were 400+ points (it having to purchase upgrades as normal), it wouldn't be nearly as offensive.

A quasi side note:

It's a source of great annoyance to me that my sternguard can't regularly kill a wraithknight with hellfire rounds.

Why should your sternguard be able to kill a 300+ point model in the one turn, usually the first if a drop pod is involved, without giving the other player any opportunity to do anything about it? Typical marine player.

NG77 wrote:
Why should your sternguard be able to kill a 300+ point model in the one turn, usually the first if a drop pod is involved, without giving the other player any opportunity to do anything about it? Typical marine player.

Why should the Wraithguard be allowed to kill a 250+ points Land Raider in a turn, without giving the other player any opportunity to do anything about it? Typical Eldar player.

GreyCrow wrote:

NG77 wrote:
Why should your sternguard be able to kill a 300+ point model in the one turn, usually the first if a drop pod is involved, without giving the other player any opportunity to do anything about it? Typical marine player.

Why should the Wraithguard be allowed to kill a 250+ points Land Raider in a turn, without giving the other player any opportunity to do anything about it? Typical Eldar player.

Both are bad, but one of these is killing an overpriced unit. If Land Raiders were cheaper, it wouldn't be so bad. Not to mention the Wraithguard's reliance on a transport to switch targets.
A drop pod only goes in to kill one thing.

I love my Sternguard as much as the next guy, but killing a Wraithknight in one go from them is a bad idea. Hellfire rounds are meant to kill off high toughness, weak armour enemies - not ones with both high toughness and armour.

GreyCrow wrote:

NG77 wrote:
Why should your sternguard be able to kill a 300+ point model in the one turn, usually the first if a drop pod is involved, without giving the other player any opportunity to do anything about it? Typical marine player.

Why should the Wraithguard be allowed to kill a 250+ points Land Raider in a turn, without giving the other player any opportunity to do anything about it? Typical Eldar player.

Well firstly it requires a 150 point transport to get it there. So in terms of a point investment it is much higher. Secondly this can be avoided by moving out of range or destroying the transport.

Sternguard pay what 35 points for a drop pod? (is this free in the gladius?) they can come in on the first turn, with a minimal chance of a mishap. Giving them the power to down a wraithknight in one turn would make them absurdly broken.

Drop pod sternguard are already basically auto delete in turn 1 against a large number of targets, they don't need any boost in power.

Drop Pod Sternguards are only auto delete if the opponent is stupid enough to deploy his high value targets on the table when there is an alpha strike coming.

So, like your counter to Wraithguards, Strenguards can be avoided by not deploying their target on the table Sure, you lose a turn, but you gain not getting killed.

I wouldn't mind having them not down a Wraithknight in one turn, but it would require the WK to be more appropriately costed.

When we compared, the Wraithknight is 5 times as survivable than Sternguards when we take a Scatter Laser as the damage standard (it takes 90 shots to kill a WK and 18 to kill a Sternguard squad).
Yet it is priced at only 3x the points because increasing returns on points investment I guess ?

And I'm not even talking about killing power (to be fair I think Plasmas are undercosted, especially on combis), but purely in terms of absolute resilience against S6 weapons (which also makes him inviolate from S4 weapons).

I accept there are counters to everything, this is 40k after all! Every rock has its paper. I just find the complaint that "my unit of x can't take out every target" a bit boring. Sternguard are already excellent at taking out a number of targets, and sm have plenty of other tools to take out those that it can't. But the strategy against drop pods is inherently more risky than that against the Wraithguard. The risk of tabling for one, or the risk that your expensive model comes in turn 4 and everything it needed to support is dead. With the Wraithguard, just deploy somewhere else, rather than not being on the board.

I do completely agree that the Wraithknight is criminally undercosted. I used mine once and saw how potent it was, I don't think I'll be using it again unless both parties agree to put out a powerful list. The mix of survivability and damage output makes it pretty stupidly powerful, but the solution to that should be to make it cost more, not to make sternguard more powerful.

NG77 wrote:
I accept there are counters to everything, this is 40k after all! Every rock has its paper. I just find the complaint that "my unit of x can't take out every target" a bit boring. Sternguard are already excellent at taking out a number of targets, and sm have plenty of other tools to take out those that it can't. But the strategy against drop pods is inherently more risky than that against the Wraithguard. The risk of tabling for one, or the risk that your expensive model comes in turn 4 and everything it needed to support is dead. With the Wraithguard, just deploy somewhere else, rather than not being on the board.

I do completely agree that the Wraithknight is criminally undercosted. I used mine once and saw how potent it was, I don't think I'll be using it again unless both parties agree to put out a powerful list. The mix of survivability and damage output makes it pretty stupidly powerful, but the solution to that should be to make it cost more, not to make sternguard more powerful.

I like the Sternguard, but this seems like a better fix to me.

That being said, the game has too many units that can't take out anything.

sternguard in a drop pod still have to land... deploy WK in a corner, max spacing of units around it plus a few vehicles enough that they cannot land close enough to the WK and are 12 inches away problem solved. everything has its weakness the issue is planning for and making up for said weakness.

I will agree that many posters on here act like they are completely helpless in the face of drop pods.

Martel732 wrote:
I will agree that many posters on here act like they are completely helpless in the face of drop pods.

It is amazing how it works. The only time Rhinos I feel are a threat is when I'm using Necrons, because there's NO dedicated AT for the most part, and otherwise Rhinos are too easy to pop against everyone else.

I could take down one WK in a turn. It would just take a deathstar for aprox. 600 Points, including my warlord...... Just insane.
Luckily, our eldarplayer don`t likes that stupid thing, so he don`t have one.

 Ankhalagon wrote:
I could take down one WK in a turn. It would just take a deathstar for aprox. 600 Points, including my warlord...... Just insane.
Luckily, our eldarplayer don`t likes that stupid thing, so he don`t have one.

I have one, a lot of elder players do... but I only play it if somebody wants to play a strong list or is bringing a super heavy or their own GMC (my flgs we usually note this before throwing down models because it is no fun to be planning to play a green tide list and suddenly be facing 4 imperial knights and have no answer to it)

Seems like the solution to fixing walkers is to make them MC's. Convert them over to a Toughness/wounds. Might make them viable.

The wraithknight is still undercosted.