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But that clearly isn't what the rule says with ghost ark "...Add a number of Necron Warriors to the unit equal to the result - this cannot take the unit beyond its starting size nor, if its currently embarked in the Ghost Ark, beyond the vehicle's Transport Capacity (any excess are destroyed)...."
Taking warriors from the side of the table that were destroyed isn't adding necron warriors to the unit, it is replacing them on the table, which is not what the rule says. If you take the warriors that were part of that unit and set aside you are not adding warriors to the unit and are breaking the rules for ghost ark since that is not adding to the unit.
Again either the ghost ark can add warriors to the unit (not replacing already destroyed warriors since that isn't what the rule says) and then if the entire unit is destroyed return all the warriors back on, or the Repair Barge special rule is broken and does not work ever since you are insisting that the unit's size is always counting models on and off the table.
Incorrect. The rule does not say you can add new bases to the unit and increase the unit size. You need express permission to do that The Scarab Hive rule says that.
The rules are clear that the unit is comprised of a set number of models. Models that are on the side of the table as casualties are still organizationally part of the unit. They are just not on the Battlefied and are not participating in the game. The Ghost Ark can re-add them back to the Ghost Ark. The Repair Barge rule requires you to keep the unit size intact and does not give you permission to add new bases to the unit.
Nothing really to discuss here.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/05/29 01:24:15
But that clearly isn't what the rule says with ghost ark "...Add a number of Necron Warriors to the unit equal to the result - this cannot take the unit beyond its starting size nor, if its currently embarked in the Ghost Ark, beyond the vehicle's Transport Capacity (any excess are destroyed)...."
Taking warriors from the side of the table that were destroyed isn't adding necron warriors to the unit, it is replacing them on the table, which is not what the rule says. If you take the warriors that were part of that unit and set aside you are not adding warriors to the unit and are breaking the rules for ghost ark since that is not adding to the unit.
Again either the ghost ark can add warriors to the unit (not replacing already destroyed warriors since that isn't what the rule says) and then if the entire unit is destroyed return all the warriors back on, or the Repair Barge special rule is broken and does not work ever since you are insisting that the unit's size is always counting models on and off the table.
Incorrect. The rule does not say you can add new bases to the unit and increase the unit size. You need express permission to do that The Scarab Hive rule says that.
The rules are clear that the unit is comprised of a set number of models. Models that are on the side of the table as casualties are still organizationally part of the unit. They are just not on the Battlefied and are not participating in the game. The Ghost Ark can re-add them back to the Ghost Ark. The Repair Barge rule requires you to keep the unit size intact.
Nothing really to discuss here.
Add a number of Necron Warriors does say to add necron warriors to the unit though which is the same as adding bases, you are correct that it does not say it increases the unit size. Repair barge does not say replace a necron warrior that was destroyed back in unit cohericy with the unit it says add. There are several rules that DO say replace the model back on the table. This is using your exact argument that this can cause rise from the sands to return the warrior unit with more warriors than originally set up as. Repair barge isn't increaseing the unit size beyond its starting amount Rise from the Sands rule is.
not participating in the game
So then they have no game rules attached to them? Now you are contradicting yourself if they are not part of the game.
It's easy to assume that people arguing an interpretation you disagree with are just looking for an advantage for themselves... But it's quite often not the case.
Add a number of Necron Warriors does say to add necron warriors to the unit though which is the same as adding bases, you are correct that it does not say it increases the unit size. Repair barge does not say replace a necron warrior that was destroyed back in unit cohericy with the unit it says add. There are several rules that DO say replace the model back on the table. This is using your exact argument that this can cause rise from the sands to return the warrior unit with more warriors than originally set up as. Repair barge isn't increaseing the unit size beyond its starting amount Rise from the Sands rule is.
Adding a warrior (to replace a warrior that was removed as a casualty) is not the same as adding bases to the unit. It would say add bases to the unit if it wanted you to add bases to the unit.
Add a number of Necron Warriors does say to add necron warriors to the unit though which is the same as adding bases, you are correct that it does not say it increases the unit size. Repair barge does not say replace a necron warrior that was destroyed back in unit cohericy with the unit it says add. There are several rules that DO say replace the model back on the table. This is using your exact argument that this can cause rise from the sands to return the warrior unit with more warriors than originally set up as. Repair barge isn't increaseing the unit size beyond its starting amount Rise from the Sands rule is.
Adding a warrior (to replace a warrior that was removed as a casualty) is not the same as adding bases to the unit. It would say add bases to the unit if it wanted you to add bases to the unit.
Except it doesn't say "place a warrior that was removed" it says ADD just like the scarabs rule says add. Adding is adding not replacing. There are rules in the game that say return the model to the battlefield, repair barge is not one of them.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/05/29 01:54:13
It's easy to assume that people arguing an interpretation you disagree with are just looking for an advantage for themselves... But it's quite often not the case.
Add a number of Necron Warriors does say to add necron warriors to the unit though which is the same as adding bases, you are correct that it does not say it increases the unit size. Repair barge does not say replace a necron warrior that was destroyed back in unit cohericy with the unit it says add. There are several rules that DO say replace the model back on the table. This is using your exact argument that this can cause rise from the sands to return the warrior unit with more warriors than originally set up as. Repair barge isn't increaseing the unit size beyond its starting amount Rise from the Sands rule is.
Adding a warrior (to replace a warrior that was removed as a casualty) is not the same as adding bases to the unit. It would say add bases to the unit if it wanted you to add bases to the unit.
Except it doesn't say "place a warrior that was removed" it says ADD just like the scarabs rule says add. Adding is adding not replacing. There are rules in the game that say return the model to the battlefield, repair barge is not one of them.
It does not say add a BASE to the unit. That's the rub.
Add a number of Necron Warriors does say to add necron warriors to the unit though which is the same as adding bases, you are correct that it does not say it increases the unit size. Repair barge does not say replace a necron warrior that was destroyed back in unit cohericy with the unit it says add. There are several rules that DO say replace the model back on the table. This is using your exact argument that this can cause rise from the sands to return the warrior unit with more warriors than originally set up as. Repair barge isn't increaseing the unit size beyond its starting amount Rise from the Sands rule is.
Adding a warrior (to replace a warrior that was removed as a casualty) is not the same as adding bases to the unit. It would say add bases to the unit if it wanted you to add bases to the unit.
Except it doesn't say "place a warrior that was removed" it says ADD just like the scarabs rule says add. Adding is adding not replacing. There are rules in the game that say return the model to the battlefield, repair barge is not one of them.
It does not say add a BASE to the unit. That's the rub.
Show me with a rule that base is what matters when the rule says adding.
It's easy to assume that people arguing an interpretation you disagree with are just looking for an advantage for themselves... But it's quite often not the case.
Add a number of Necron Warriors does say to add necron warriors to the unit though which is the same as adding bases, you are correct that it does not say it increases the unit size. Repair barge does not say replace a necron warrior that was destroyed back in unit cohericy with the unit it says add. There are several rules that DO say replace the model back on the table. This is using your exact argument that this can cause rise from the sands to return the warrior unit with more warriors than originally set up as. Repair barge isn't increaseing the unit size beyond its starting amount Rise from the Sands rule is.
Adding a warrior (to replace a warrior that was removed as a casualty) is not the same as adding bases to the unit. It would say add bases to the unit if it wanted you to add bases to the unit.
Except it doesn't say "place a warrior that was removed" it says ADD just like the scarabs rule says add. Adding is adding not replacing. There are rules in the game that say return the model to the battlefield, repair barge is not one of them.
It does not say add a BASE to the unit. That's the rub.
Show me with a rule that base is what matters when the rule says adding.
The burden is on you. If it doesn't say you can add bases to the unit then you cannot add bases to the unit.
Add a number of Necron Warriors does say to add necron warriors to the unit though which is the same as adding bases, you are correct that it does not say it increases the unit size. Repair barge does not say replace a necron warrior that was destroyed back in unit cohericy with the unit it says add. There are several rules that DO say replace the model back on the table. This is using your exact argument that this can cause rise from the sands to return the warrior unit with more warriors than originally set up as. Repair barge isn't increaseing the unit size beyond its starting amount Rise from the Sands rule is.
Adding a warrior (to replace a warrior that was removed as a casualty) is not the same as adding bases to the unit. It would say add bases to the unit if it wanted you to add bases to the unit.
Except it doesn't say "place a warrior that was removed" it says ADD just like the scarabs rule says add. Adding is adding not replacing. There are rules in the game that say return the model to the battlefield, repair barge is not one of them.
It does not say add a BASE to the unit. That's the rub.
Show me with a rule that base is what matters when the rule says adding.
The burden is on you. If it doesn't say you can add bases to the unit then you cannot add bases to the unit.
you are the one makeing the claim that base is what matters. Burden is on you to prove your point. I've already proved mine that it says add a necron warrior and not "place a warrior that was removed".
It's easy to assume that people arguing an interpretation you disagree with are just looking for an advantage for themselves... But it's quite often not the case.
you are the one makeing the claim that base is what matters. Burden is on you to prove your point. I've already proved mine that it says add a necron warrior and not "place a warrior that was removed".
Once you add a base to the unit you have changed the unit size. Does Repair Barge allow you to change the unit size, yes or no?
you are the one makeing the claim that base is what matters. Burden is on you to prove your point. I've already proved mine that it says add a necron warrior and not "place a warrior that was removed".
Once you add a base to the unit you have changed the unit size. Does Repair Barge allow you to change the unit size, yes or no?
That is a loaded question. Repair barge tells us to add necron warriors to the target unit, it does not tell us to replace a warrior that was destroyed.
Edit: Still waiting on proof that the wording has to have base in it for it to be adding to the unit or not.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/05/29 03:21:04
It's easy to assume that people arguing an interpretation you disagree with are just looking for an advantage for themselves... But it's quite often not the case.
you are the one makeing the claim that base is what matters. Burden is on you to prove your point. I've already proved mine that it says add a necron warrior and not "place a warrior that was removed".
Once you add a base to the unit you have changed the unit size. Does Repair Barge allow you to change the unit size, yes or no?
That is a loaded question. Repair barge tells us to add necron warriors to the target unit, it does not tell us to replace a warrior that was destroyed.
Edit: Still waiting on proof that the wording has to have base in it for it to be adding to the unit or not.
Huh? It's not a loaded question at all. If you add a base to the unit you change the unit size. The rule needs to give you permission to do it. Does Repair Barge give you the permission to change the unit size or does it make clear that you cannot change the unit size?
Spoiler:
Repair Barge: At the start of each friendly Movement phase, this model can repair fallen
Necron Warriors. To do so, nominate a friendly unit of Necron Warriors that is either within
6" of this model or embarked upon it, and roll a D3. Add a number of Necron Warriors to the
unit equal to the result – this cannot take the unit beyond its starting size nor, if it is
currently embarked in the Ghost Ark, beyond the vehicle’s Transport Capacity (any excess are
destroyed). These Necron Warriors must be placed within 6" of the Ghost Ark, or if the unit is
currently embarked in the Ghost Ark, within it. If a model cannot be placed for any reason, it
is destroyed. Necron Warriors repaired in this manner can move and act normally this turn.
If the rule flat out does not let you take the unit beyond its starting size then there is literally nothing to discuss. You cannot add bases to the unit.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/05/29 03:28:06
you are the one makeing the claim that base is what matters. Burden is on you to prove your point. I've already proved mine that it says add a necron warrior and not "place a warrior that was removed".
Once you add a base to the unit you have changed the unit size. Does Repair Barge allow you to change the unit size, yes or no?
That is a loaded question. Repair barge tells us to add necron warriors to the target unit, it does not tell us to replace a warrior that was destroyed.
Edit: Still waiting on proof that the wording has to have base in it for it to be adding to the unit or not.
Huh? It's not a loaded question at all. If you add a base to the unit you change the unit size. The rule needs to give you permission to do it. Does Repair Barge give you the permission to change the unit size or does it make clear that you cannot change the unit size?
Spoiler:
Repair Barge: At the start of each friendly Movement phase, this model can repair fallen
Necron Warriors. To do so, nominate a friendly unit of Necron Warriors that is either within
6" of this model or embarked upon it, and roll a D3. ]Add a number of Necron Warriors to the
unit equal to the result – this cannot take the unit beyond its starting size nor, if it is
currently embarked in the Ghost Ark, beyond the vehicle’s Transport Capacity (any excess are
destroyed). These Necron Warriors must be placed within 6" of the Ghost Ark, or if the unit is
currently embarked in the Ghost Ark, within it. If a model cannot be placed for any reason, it
is destroyed. Necron Warriors repaired in this manner can move and act normally this turn.
If the rule flat out does not let you take the unit beyond its starting size then there is literally nothing to discuss. You cannot add bases to the unit.
And yet the rule flat out tells us to add warriors to a unit. if a unit of warriors loose a few models and repair barge is used to add warriors, warriors are added to the unit. Add a number of Necron Warriors to the
unit equal to the result
There is no permission to use replace necron warriors that were removed from play back to that unit. We do have permission to add warriors to it.
Still waiting on rules supported proof that the wording has to have base in it for it to be adding to the unit or not.
a unit of scarabs have 5 models in play, one is destroyed, a spyder then adds one to the unit. What is the unit's size?
A unit of warriors have 5 models in play, one is destroyed, a ghost ark then adds one to the unit. What is the unit's size?
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/05/29 03:45:18
It's easy to assume that people arguing an interpretation you disagree with are just looking for an advantage for themselves... But it's quite often not the case.
col_impact wrote:Per the rules, the Battlefield is where the game is played. A model doesn't have permission to participate in Game Play (unless a rule expressly permits it) unless the model is on the Battlefield. Them's the rules.
Again, where is that a rule?
col_impact wrote:I fully accept the title of bad listener. You have the title of 'man with no argument'. I am still waiting for you to present a case.
I have presented my case, right at the beginning. Your counter is your case. You need to support your case with something more than broad assumptions.
col_impact wrote:Incorrect.
Spoiler:
When all of the models in a unit are removed as casualties, the unit is said to have been ‘completely destroyed’.
I place the unit on the side of the table and I say (ie designate) "completely destroyed". 'Completely destroyed' is a designation in the game that can be revoked by resurrection rule.
Quite Correct. Even if it is "said to have been 'completely destroyed'", the rule does not state "the unit is placed to the side" like it is for the models.
Remember, just because it says a model does something, doesn't necessarily mean that the unit does the same thing. You are adding this arbitrarily.
col_impact wrote:I will not answer questions that are patently obvious. You have to be prepared to present a full counter-argument in good faith for it to be worthy of my attention. Bad faith arguments are ignored.
Sorry, no, bad listener strikes again.
Asking for references to your arguments is an indication that it is not patently obvious to a person, and it hasn't been just me asking them. If you want this to be a reliable case, you need evidence. Evidence in this case is proper references. Aside of a definition of where "in play" is, you have provided zero references WHAT "in play" actually means to fit your case.
And if you refuse to properly answer the question, it means one of two things, you are either to lazy to find and present your evidence or you know you have no evidence and prefer to just keep repeating it in hopes that others will just accept it. This is part of what is called The Big Lie in politics and media.
col_impact wrote:Is this the best you guys can do? Throw a bunch of bad faith arguments that no one will take seriously? My RAW argument stands uncontested.
You have yet to present anything that would allow us to accept any good faith arguments from you. To us, all you have presented are bad faith arguments and why we keep questioning where you are getting them from.
col_impact wrote:Once you add a base to the unit you have changed the unit size. Does Repair Barge allow you to change the unit size, yes or no?
But if you do not add the model base(s) to the unit, you are not following the instructions of the rule. The rule does not state to restore a model to the unit. So, either your interpretations are crap, or Repair Barge doesn't work.
Never mind what the physical aspect of the situation is. A player could have spare models lying below, models removed from that specific unit on the side of the table, or models that were removed from a different Warrior unit sitting on the side of the table. The rule simply does not care. And because of that, is another indication that models removed as casualties no longer count as part of the unit for unit size. They certainly don't after having taken casualties and an IC joins them.
And if models removed as casualties do not count for part of the unit size for Transport Capacity or Repair Barge, they won't when it comes time to restore the unit back to the field. Remember, they "aren't in play" any more.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/05/29 03:46:53
Are you a Wolf, a Sheep, or a Hound?
Megavolt wrote:They called me crazy…they called me insane…THEY CALLED ME LOONEY!! and boy, were they right.
And yet the rule flat out tells us to add warriors to a unit. if a unit of warriors loose a few models and repair barge is used to add warriors, warriors are added to the unit. Add a number of Necron Warriors to the
unit equal to the result
There is no permission to use replace necron warriors that were removed from play back to that unit. We do have permission to add warriors to it.
Still waiting on rules supported proof that the wording has to have base in it for it to be adding to the unit or not.
a unit of scarabs have 5 models in play, one is destroyed, a spyder then adds one to the unit. What is the unit's size?
A unit of warriors have 5 models in play, one is destroyed, a ghost ark then adds one to the unit. What is the unit's size?
The unit of scarabs is now unit size 6. Scarab Hive adds bases to the unit and is permitted to increase the unit's size/
The unit of warriors remains unit size 5. Repair Barge is forbidden from increasing the unit size.
I have provided rules support. Repair Barge forbids you from increasing the unit size so if add a warrior then you need to insure a warrior is removed from the casualty pile. The unit size cannot increase.
col_impact wrote:Per the rules, the Battlefield is where the game is played. A model doesn't have permission to participate in Game Play (unless a rule expressly permits it) unless the model is on the Battlefield. Them's the rules.
Again, where is that a rule?
Spoiler:
THE BATTLEFIELD
The battlefield over which your game is played must be set up before the game begins.
Spoiler:
THE TURN
Behold the terrible splendour of war! Squads of courageous warriors pick their
way through the rubble and ruin, advancing under the covering fire of mighty
war engines. Lances and bolts of energy pierce the smoke-wreathed air, and
power-armoured brutes hurl themselves into the enemy ranks, letting fly with
chainsword and power axe.
A Warhammer 40,000 battle is a chaotic affair. To bring a modicum of order to the
anarchy of battle, players alternate moving and fighting with their units. So, one player
will move and fight with his forces, and then their opponent will move and fight. This
process is then repeated, with the first player moving and fighting again, and so on, until
the game is done.
During his turn, a player can usually move and fight once with each of his units. For
convenience and flow of game play, we divide a player’s turn into four main phases:
Movement, Psychic, Shooting and Assault.
This means that you move any models you want to first, then when you are finished all of
your moving, your psykers can invoke the power of the Warp. Then you can shoot with
your models, and finally, once your shooting is all completed, you can charge into assault
and resolve any close combats. This process helps to keep track of what is going on and
makes it easier to know when one player’s actions are over and their opponent can start
his turn (and take his revenge).
col_impact wrote:I fully accept the title of bad listener. You have the title of 'man with no argument'. I am still waiting for you to present a case.
I have presented my case, right at the beginning. Your counter is your case. You need to support your case with something more than broad assumptions.
Now you are just dodging. You have failed to present a case of models outside of unit. You weren't able to. And now you are trying to obscure that fact.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/05/29 04:13:07
And yet the rule flat out tells us to add warriors to a unit. if a unit of warriors loose a few models and repair barge is used to add warriors, warriors are added to the unit. Add a number of Necron Warriors to the
unit equal to the result
There is no permission to use replace necron warriors that were removed from play back to that unit. We do have permission to add warriors to it.
Still waiting on rules supported proof that the wording has to have base in it for it to be adding to the unit or not.
a unit of scarabs have 5 models in play, one is destroyed, a spyder then adds one to the unit. What is the unit's size?
A unit of warriors have 5 models in play, one is destroyed, a ghost ark then adds one to the unit. What is the unit's size?
The unit of scarabs is now unit size 6. Scarab Hive adds bases to the unit and is permitted to increase the unit's size/
The unit of warriors remains unit size 5. Repair Barge is forbidden from increasing the unit size.
I have provided rules support. Repair Barge forbids you from increasing the unit size so if add a warrior then you need to insure a warrior is removed from the casualty pile. The unit size cannot increase.
col_impact wrote:Per the rules, the Battlefield is where the game is played. A model doesn't have permission to participate in Game Play (unless a rule expressly permits it) unless the model is on the Battlefield. Them's the rules.
Insisting that in order to add a necron warrior to the unit it must come from the "casualty pile" is going against the rules you have posted. There is no permission granted to take a warrior from the "casualty pile" and replace it on the battle field. There IS permission to add a necron warrior to the unit.
Does that unit of scarabs have 24 melee attacks then if you think that it is now 6?
Edit: Still waiting on rules supported proof that the wording has to have base in it for it to be adding to the unit or not. If you think you have posted a rule that states that a base is what matters when adding anything to a unit re-post it and highlight it for me because currently I have not seen you post one.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/05/29 04:20:39
It's easy to assume that people arguing an interpretation you disagree with are just looking for an advantage for themselves... But it's quite often not the case.
col_impact wrote:I will not answer questions that are patently obvious. You have to be prepared to present a full counter-argument in good faith for it to be worthy of my attention. Bad faith arguments are ignored.
Sorry, no, bad listener strikes again.
Asking for references to your arguments is an indication that it is not patently obvious to a person, and it hasn't been just me asking them. If you want this to be a reliable case, you need evidence. Evidence in this case is proper references. Aside of a definition of where "in play" is, you have provided zero references WHAT "in play" actually means to fit your case.
And if you refuse to properly answer the question, it means one of two things, you are either to lazy to find and present your evidence or you know you have no evidence and prefer to just keep repeating it in hopes that others will just accept it. This is part of what is called The Big Lie in politics and media.
My argument is super simple and follows RAW precisely. I have done nothing but have been super straightforward from the start about textual support since I have so much of it.
Scarab Hive adds bases to the unit. Those bases get removed from the battlefield as casualties. From the Sands, We Rise returns the unit to play after it is wiped out. If you obey the rules you have no choice but to return the unit designated completely destroyed on the side of the table to the battlefield.
The Battlefield is where the game is played and game play involves the Turn Sequence. If something is not on the Battlefield it is not permitted to do the Turn Sequence or much of anything at all unless it has specific rules to do so (such as the case of units in Reserve having specific permission to do certain things but cannot participate in the Turn Sequence since they are not on the Battlefield)
Insisting that in order to add a necron warrior to the unit it must come from the "casualty pile" is going against the rules you have posted. There is no permission granted to take a warrior from the "casualty pile" and replace it on the battle field. There IS permission to add a necron warrior to the unit.
Edit: Still waiting on rules supported proof that the wording has to have base in it for it to be adding to the unit or not. If you think you have posted a rule that states that a base is what matters when adding anything to a unit re-post it and highlight it for me because currently I have not seen you post one.
In order to follow the rule you must not change the size of the unit. This has been explained to the umpteenth time. If you change the size of the unit you are cheating. Adding bases to the unit changes the unit size. That is cheating and not following the rules. This is a forum on interpreting the rules, not willfully cheating.
col_impact wrote:Is this the best you guys can do? Throw a bunch of bad faith arguments that no one will take seriously? My RAW argument stands uncontested.
You have yet to present anything that would allow us to accept any good faith arguments from you. To us, all you have presented are bad faith arguments and why we keep questioning where you are getting them from.
That's what I figured. You are unable to present substantial counter arguments. My argument remains uncontested.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/05/29 04:28:36
You may have models to the side of the table that were never Incorporated into the unit, so simply having models at the side doesn't mean you can bring them back. So no, not simple.
Or, what if you simply had the models but never got the unit above its maximum size. Would you conclude that the unit brought back should ADD the models that were replaced earlier?
No. No you would not. Since the size of the unit at the time of death has no bearing on what unit was selected at the time the army was created, and there is nothing telling you to take into account the unit's size when destroyed the only conclusion that may be made is the unit that was purchased originally, in it's entirety, with no modifications is subject to the rule granted to it via the formation.
Anything that you would point to allowing the resurrection of models not originally purchased can be used as definitive proof of being forced to resurect the unit at a smaller size due to casualties sustained before the point the unit was destroyed. Until you can prove that not to be the case, you have no case to the opposite.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, if a unit may not be increased behind its starting g size, the units size is still modified when a model is removed or added. A 9 man strong warrior unit is NOT still a 10man unit. It is a 9 man unit.
So yes, when you add models to a unit of warriors, you are actually changing the unit size. Just not the size it was when purchased. So the argument that a unit of scarabs is modified when "bases" are added, but a unit of warriors is not modified when "models" are added is patently false.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/05/29 05:50:27
Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote: You may have models to the side of the table that were never Incorporated into the unit, so simply having models at the side doesn't mean you can bring them back. So no, not simple.
Or, what if you simply had the models but never got the unit above its maximum size. Would you conclude that the unit brought back should ADD the models that were replaced earlier?
No. No you would not. Since the size of the unit at the time of death has no bearing on what unit was selected at the time the army was created, and there is nothing telling you to take into account the unit's size when destroyed the only conclusion that may be made is the unit that was purchased originally, in it's entirety, with no modifications is subject to the rule granted to it via the formation.
Anything that you would point to allowing the resurrection of models not originally purchased can be used as definitive proof of being forced to resurect the unit at a smaller size due to casualties sustained before the point the unit was destroyed. Until you can prove that not to be the case, you have no case to the opposite.
No proof needed from me. The rule says "the unit", not the "original unit" or the "purchased unit". You are the one coming up short in the rules department.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, if a unit may not be increased behind its starting g size, the units size is still modified when a model is removed or added. A 9 man strong warrior unit is NOT still a 10man unit. It is a 9 man unit.
So yes, when you add models to a unit of warriors, you are actually changing the unit size. Just not the size it was when purchased. So the argument that a unit of scarabs is modified when "bases" are added, but a unit of warriors is not modified when "models" are added is patently false.
Feel free to point to rules in the BRB which discuss how unit size is tracked. You will not find a discussion anywhere in the BRB on unit size. So it is a static characteristic that only certain USR can change, like the Scarab Hive rule.
A 10 man unit with 1 model on the side of the table and 9 models in play is not a unit with a unit size of 9. That unit may have 9 models on the Battlefield but it is a unit with a unit size of 10 (with one casualty).
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/05/29 06:21:11
nosferatu1001 wrote: The unit is completely destroyed. Yet you are claiming there is a unit that exists... the two cant coexist
At the end of the game you are told to score victory points for units that have been destroyed, how does that work? I'm not even sure how this fits with the OP's question
That said, Charistoph got it correct in his first message. We are not told to include newly added models, so we won't. What is written in the roster is what the unit's size is and that is the only allocation we have.
2016/05/29 07:42:43
Subject: Re:Retribution Phalanx and Canoptek Spyder
Morale. If we were to follow your logic, then morale would never be taken as the unit would always cou t as being the original unit size. If you believe that the unit always counts as the starting number of models, when would you need to roll double ones to regroup? Those are explicit examples of a unit's size changing due to gameplay circumstances.
Also, if you were to follow your own logic further you would notice that the permission to bring back the whole unit would require you to have every single base created to bring back. So, if you took casualties and replaced them in addition to adding models over time you would reach a point where you may not have enough models to bring back.
Since you have decided that the new total is the unit that must be brought back, and have no rules stating you can return less than the full unit, then you are now never going to be able to bring the unt back. You logic falls flat in every situation besides one where you have an unlimited number of scarab bases while also flying in the face of common sense.
As for it being RAW, you are assuming unit size to be a static number where there is no rule telling you to do so. Since the rules require the interactions of units by way of number of models in a unit performing an action there is no basis for you belief that changing the unit size by way of removing g them is different from adding to the unit with a special rule. A unit may be larger or smaller in model count based on timing and gameplay, what you are arguing is that only the one that is a benefit to your unit should count when there is no rule stating that to be seen anywhere.
nosferatu1001 wrote: The unit is completely destroyed. Yet you are claiming there is a unit that exists... the two cant coexist
At the end of the game you are told to score victory points for units that have been destroyed, how does that work? I'm not even sure how this fits with the OP's question
That said, Charistoph got it correct in his first message. We are not told to include newly added models, so we won't. What is written in the roster is what the unit's size is and that is the only allocation we have.
'From the Sands, We Rise' resurrects the unit, not the original unit or the starting unit. You are not permitted to add 'original' or 'starting' to the rule.
Apparently, I am the only one who is going to follow the straight read of the rules as they are written and not add anything or subtract anything from that read.
There is a difference between wanting a rule to read a certain way and being honest about what the rule actually says. I am being honest about what the rule actually says.
Everyone else on this thread simply needs to just read the rules as they are.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote: Morale. If we were to follow your logic, then morale would never be taken as the unit would always cou t as being the original unit size. If you believe that the unit always counts as the starting number of models, when would you need to roll double ones to regroup? Those are explicit examples of a unit's size changing due to gameplay circumstances.
Also, if you were to follow your own logic further you would notice that the permission to bring back the whole unit would require you to have every single base created to bring back. So, if you took casualties and replaced them in addition to adding models over time you would reach a point where you may not have enough models to bring back.
Since you have decided that the new total is the unit that must be brought back, and have no rules stating you can return less than the full unit, then you are now never going to be able to bring the unt back. You logic falls flat in every situation besides one where you have an unlimited number of scarab bases while also flying in the face of common sense.
As for it being RAW, you are assuming unit size to be a static number where there is no rule telling you to do so. Since the rules require the interactions of units by way of number of models in a unit performing an action there is no basis for you belief that changing the unit size by way of removing g them is different from adding to the unit with a special rule. A unit may be larger or smaller in model count based on timing and gameplay, what you are arguing is that only the one that is a benefit to your unit should count when there is no rule stating that to be seen anywhere.
You need to pop open the BRB and see what "unit size" refers to. Do your research first then let's continue the discussion. As it is, your argument is not grounded in anything.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/05/29 08:09:49
I looked around and saw nothing talking about unit size at all.
Do you have a page number? Since (near as I can tell) you are making up the idea that a unit's size is a static number that can only be added to not subtracted from then you have no basis in the rules for your argument as well.
Also, I noticed you ignored my point. Since the scarab swarm adds models to a unit, and may increase the unit beyond its original size, why are you not counting models added that don't go over that capacity? Is it because you may have realised that this would mean you would run out of models and therefor NOT be able to bring them back with the from the sNds rule? Since you are bringing back the unit, and you yourself have said that includes models added to the unit via scarab swarm, AND nowhere does it say you may resurect part of the unit, then once you have created a situation where you added more bases than you have when adding them to the original scarab swarm you are not allowed to bring the unit back.
It says the unit, you changed what that entailed, you made it so the unit may never return even though you have the models to do so.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Perhaps I should make my case clearer with actual numbers.
You have 6 scarab bases.
4 start in the unit.
I kill three of them.
You, over the course of the game, bring in three bases of scarabs before I eliminated ate the unit.
Now, according to your stance the unit has had bases added to it. These are a part of the unit for all rules purposes even after being eliminated (because scarab farm says you add to the unit, you are not replacing dead bases)
Now, since you have a unit you want to return to play, you would have to return the unit. Not part of, the whole unit. Except now the unit of scarabs is 7 bases in number (the original four + the three you ADDED later) but you only have 6 bases to place on the table. The scarabs can no longer be resurected because (according to you) the unit size is now 7. Remember that scarab farm ADDS bases, and may be increased beyond the starting size of the unit. It doesn't say anywhere that the addition of bases only counts as an addition if you exceed the starting number. You are adding bases to the unit.
So, unless you want this entirely possible yet nonsensical situation to plague you whenever you attempt to use the ideas you posted it may be better to go with the idea that the unit referenced for a special rule FROM a formation should be the exact unit purchased FOR the formation.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/05/29 08:57:08
nosferatu1001 wrote: The unit is completely destroyed. Yet you are claiming there is a unit that exists... the two cant coexist
At the end of the game you are told to score victory points for units that have been destroyed, how does that work? I'm not even sure how this fits with the OP's question
That said, Charistoph got it correct in his first message. We are not told to include newly added models, so we won't. What is written in the roster is what the unit's size is and that is the only allocation we have.
'From the Sands, We Rise' resurrects the unit, not the original unit or the starting unit. You are not permitted to add 'original' or 'starting' to the rule.
I am not adding anything, you are. You are changing the unit's size even when you are not told to do so. The _only_ time you are allowed to do that is in the movement phase where _another_ special rule lets you do so.
Apparently, I am the only one who is going to follow the straight read of the rules as they are written and not add anything or subtract anything from that read.
There is a difference between wanting a rule to read a certain way and being honest about what the rule actually says. I am being honest about what the rule actually says.
Everyone else on this thread simply needs to just read the rules as they are.
Please quote the permission to bring in any other amount of scarabs than what your roster says. The parts you quote do not cover this and you know it.
So I haven't read this whole argument, as it gets frustratingly repetitive at points, so excuse me if this has been answered already, but I have a question for Col.
I am just curious as to how you play it, RAW or RAI?
I feel playing RAW could make it pretty broken as a concept.
There is reasoning to play it as RAW, but I feel RAI is fairer to both sides.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/05/29 10:08:13
Scenario: Basic Retribution Phalanx, no upgrades starts at 3 Canoptek Scarabs. Turn 1, the Spyder from your CAD adds one to the Scarab Unit, you move them and run them max distance into cover. The ork Burna boys that you forgot were near and in a Truk move over disembark for max flamer template coverage and wipes out the whole unit. Ork Player finishes their turn.
Start of Necron turn 2, the formation sets up a set of logic gate questions to see if that unit is able to return.
Is it the owner's next turn yet? Yes.
Is the Overlord from the formation still on the battlefield? Yes.
What unit was wiped out last turn? Canoptek Scarabs from the formation.
What size was the unit when it was wiped out? Four.
The game now has the answers that the formation needs to return a unit of 4 Scarabs starting within 3" of the Overlord from this formation.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2016/05/29 14:17:10
nosferatu1001 wrote: The unit is completely destroyed. Yet you are claiming there is a unit that exists... the two cant coexist
At the end of the game you are told to score victory points for units that have been destroyed, how does that work? I'm not even sure how this fits with the OP's question
That said, Charistoph got it correct in his first message. We are not told to include newly added models, so we won't. What is written in the roster is what the unit's size is and that is the only allocation we have.
'From the Sands, We Rise' resurrects the unit, not the original unit or the starting unit. You are not permitted to add 'original' or 'starting' to the rule.
I am not adding anything, you are. You are changing the unit's size even when you are not told to do so. The _only_ time you are allowed to do that is in the movement phase where _another_ special rule lets you do so.
The unit size has been changed. I just follow the From the Sands, We Rise rule to bring the unit back after it is wiped out.
col_impact wrote:Apparently, I am the only one who is going to follow the straight read of the rules as they are written and not add anything or subtract anything from that read.
There is a difference between wanting a rule to read a certain way and being honest about what the rule actually says. I am being honest about what the rule actually says.
Everyone else on this thread simply needs to just read the rules as they are.
Please quote the permission to bring in any other amount of scarabs than what your roster says. The parts you quote do not cover this and you know it.
From the Sands, We Rise brings the unit back. You don't have permission to go back to the start of the game and re-construct the unit from scratch. The From the Sands, We Rise does not specify "original" or "starting" so you do not get to reset the unit to "original" or "starting". It's as simple as that.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
nosferatu1001 wrote: "The unit" is not defined, and does not exist. Cold problem remains that their contention is, as ever, unsupported by the actual rules.
Your inability to keep Game Concepts separate from physical concepts continues to be humorous.
Please keep on with your argument. It only underscores how weak the counter-argument is.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2016/05/29 18:23:22
Draco765 wrote: Scenario: Basic Retribution Phalanx, no upgrades starts at 3 Canoptek Scarabs. Turn 1, the Spyder from your CAD adds one to the Scarab Unit, you move them and run them max distance into cover. The ork Burna boys that you forgot were near and in a Truk move over disembark for max flamer template coverage and wipes out the whole unit. Ork Player finishes their turn.
Start of Necron turn 2, the formation sets up a set of logic gate questions to see if that unit is able to return.
Is it the owner's next turn yet? Yes.
Is the Overlord from the formation still on the battlefield? Yes.
What unit was wiped out last turn? Canoptek Scarabs from the formation.
What size was the unit when it was wiped out? Four.
The game now has the answers that the formation needs to return a unit of 4 Scarabs starting within 3" of the Overlord from this formation.
Go ahead and follow you exact same logic, but the burna boyz kill all but one and charge the last, killing it then. Since you feel you can only resurect the unit based on size when killed, you get to bring back one scarab base.
There is no rules difference whatsoever whenever you add or subtract a model from the unit. The size of the unit still changes. So, either you have to use it the same way all the time, or you bring back the same unit you purchased as part of the formation. No other interpretation can be made because the distinction you are looking for does not exist.
Draco765 wrote: Scenario: Basic Retribution Phalanx, no upgrades starts at 3 Canoptek Scarabs. Turn 1, the Spyder from your CAD adds one to the Scarab Unit, you move them and run them max distance into cover. The ork Burna boys that you forgot were near and in a Truk move over disembark for max flamer template coverage and wipes out the whole unit. Ork Player finishes their turn.
Start of Necron turn 2, the formation sets up a set of logic gate questions to see if that unit is able to return.
Is it the owner's next turn yet? Yes.
Is the Overlord from the formation still on the battlefield? Yes.
What unit was wiped out last turn? Canoptek Scarabs from the formation.
What size was the unit when it was wiped out? Four.
The game now has the answers that the formation needs to return a unit of 4 Scarabs starting within 3" of the Overlord from this formation.
Yup. You just follow the rules as they are written. As you note, it couldn't be any simpler.
Draco765 wrote: Scenario: Basic Retribution Phalanx, no upgrades starts at 3 Canoptek Scarabs. Turn 1, the Spyder from your CAD adds one to the Scarab Unit, you move them and run them max distance into cover. The ork Burna boys that you forgot were near and in a Truk move over disembark for max flamer template coverage and wipes out the whole unit. Ork Player finishes their turn.
Start of Necron turn 2, the formation sets up a set of logic gate questions to see if that unit is able to return.
Is it the owner's next turn yet? Yes.
Is the Overlord from the formation still on the battlefield? Yes.
What unit was wiped out last turn? Canoptek Scarabs from the formation.
What size was the unit when it was wiped out? Four.
The game now has the answers that the formation needs to return a unit of 4 Scarabs starting within 3" of the Overlord from this formation.
Go ahead and follow you exact same logic, but the burna boyz kill all but one and charge the last, killing it then. Since you feel you can only resurect the unit based on size when killed, you get to bring back one scarab base.
There is no rules difference whatsoever whenever you add or subtract a model from the unit. The size of the unit still changes. So, either you have to use it the same way all the time, or you bring back the same unit you purchased as part of the formation. No other interpretation can be made because the distinction you are looking for does not exist.
Incorrect. Whenever you add bases to the unit the unit size changes. So if you add 3 bases to a unit of 4 then the unit size is now 7. If that unit is then wiped out next turn you are told by the rule to return 7 and not 1.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
EnTyme wrote: Can we at least agree that the rule is too ambiguous for this argument to be settled unless this is addressed in the Necron FAQ?
The rules couldn't be more clear. There is no ambiguity.
Let's be honest here, the problem is people don't like the 'broken interaction'.
I have tested the Formation played out as RAW and I found that the formation is not broken.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/05/29 18:29:42
12,000 
2000 Khorne Bloodbound (Skullfiend Tribe- Aqshy)
1000 Tzeentch Arcanites (Pyrofane Cult - Hysh) in progress
2000 Slaves to Darkness (Ravagers)
