Grav vs Eldar Windriders

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**Galef**

Yarium wrote:
I read it. I don't think it holds water though. Instead, read this redone of mine that I think actually settles this. And best of all, no FAQ is required.

Yarium wrote:
I think I actually found a more concrete answer than just "sweep it under the rug, this isn't what they're talking about", which isn't really an answer.

Under Multiple Toughness Values, it lists what to do with units containing differing Toughness characteristics. All we have to do is substitute "Toughness" with "Armour Save", and the answer becomes apparent:

"Multiple Toughness Values

Quite rarely, a unit will contain models with differing Armour Values characteristics. When this occurs, roll To Wound using the Armour Value characteristic that is in the majority in the target unit. If two or more Armour Values values are tied for majority, use the highest of these tied values."

Okay, so it's quite clear here that you DON'T get to choose when WOUNDING (as opposed to making armour saves), and that you do have to use the highest. In this case, if a model has multiple armour saves and is hit by Grav, whichever is the numerically most superior save (the "highest") is the one that would be used.

Therefore, Grav's wounding these bikes on 3+'s, since there's an exactly equal number of 3+'s and 5+'s.

I'd buy that. The only wrinkle if when someone says that the "best" has been FAQ'd to be the controlling player's discretion, not the numeric best value.
In any case, I feel I have enough justification to continue using the 3+ without appearing to "handicap" myself.

**sangheili**

Id be ok with my opponent doing that. If he really want my grav to wound on his 5+ armor cuz he claims its a better save that the 3+ armor the bike gives ill let him do that. But when my ap5 bolter shoot theres no way he'll try to save on a 3+. You cant have the cake and eat it to. If earlier he claimed the 5+ was a better save he cant change it now

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Id be ok with my opponent doing that. If he really want my grav to wound on his 5+ armor cuz he claims its a better save that the 3+ armor the bike gives ill let him do that. But when my ap5 bolter shoot theres no way he'll try to save on a 3+. You cant have the cake and eat it to. If earlier he claimed the 5+ was a better save he cant change it now

**Happyjew**

Yarium wrote:
I read it. I don't think it holds water though. Instead, read this redone of mine that I think actually settles this. And best of all, no FAQ is required.

Yarium wrote:
I think I actually found a more concrete answer than just "sweep it under the rug, this isn't what they're talking about", which isn't really an answer.

Under Multiple Toughness Values, it lists what to do with units containing differing Toughness characteristics. All we have to do is substitute "Toughness" with "Armour Save", and the answer becomes apparent:

"Multiple Toughness Values

Quite rarely, a unit will contain models with differing Armour Values characteristics. When this occurs, roll To Wound using the Armour Value characteristic that is in the majority in the target unit. If two or more Armour Values values are tied for majority, use the highest of these tied values."

Okay, so it's quite clear here that you DON'T get to choose when WOUNDING (as opposed to making armour saves), and that you do have to use the highest. In this case, if a model has multiple armour saves and is hit by Grav, whichever is the numerically most superior save (the "highest") is the one that would be used.

Therefore, Grav's wounding these bikes on 3+'s, since there's an exactly equal number of 3+'s and 5+'s.

I read it and I disagree. You appear to want to change "Toughness" with "Armour Save" (which is fine), however, you are also changing the words of the sentence.

The rule says " If two or more Toughness values are tied for majority, use the highest of these tied values."

Note that it does not say the superior Toughness. It says "highest". As such if you replace Toughness with Save, you would use the higher Save, not the numerically most superior.

**Charistoph**

Galef wrote:I am requoting what I wrote because it doesn't seem like anyone read it.
Basically, MODELS can choose what armour is best when TAKING saves, but UNITs can only choose what saves to wound for Grav when their are different saves within the unit and no majority. Since all models in a Widrider unit, even with a Farseer of Warlock in the unit will all have a 3+ armour, so a clear majority exists no matter how you look at it.

Not quite. If there is no Warlock, then the ratio of Mesh to Bike is equal.

But with the Warlock, yeah, the bike has majority. I pointed this out pretty early.

Happyjew wrote:I read it and I disagree. You appear to want to change "Toughness" with "Armour Save" (which is fine), however, you are also changing the words of the sentence.

The rule says " If two or more Toughness values are tied for majority, use the highest of these tied values."

Note that it does not say the superior Toughness. It says "highest". As such if you replace Toughness with Save, you would use the higher Save, not the numerically most superior.

Agreed.

**Yarium**

After some deep digging with a Search function and the rulebook, I went to try and discover whether GW uses high/low vernacular when discussing saves. Most sections of the BRB use the terms "best" and "worst" when discussing saves. Right at the start of the book, under Models & Units, it discusses the Armour Save characteristic, saying:

Unlike other characteristics, the lower an Armour Save is, the better.

So, there you have it. Highest must mean actually highest (as in, a 6+ save is higher than a 2+ save).

My world is being shattered by this topic, as now I'm back again on it being a 5+ for those blasted Windriders.

**Traditio**

I'm reading the Space Wolves FAQ now. The very first question makes the answer to the OP reasonably clear:

"Q: For all models that can ride Thunderwolves (including Thunderwolf Cavalry and Wolf Lords on Thunderwolves), is the Strength bonus from the Thunderwolf applied before or after multiplying the user’s Strength by 2 for the purposes of weapons like power fists and thunder hammers?

A: The model’s Strength profile is improved by 1 for riding a Thunderwolf. This is not a modified profile, but is instead the model’s new profile (as demonstrated by the Thunderwolf Cavalry profile). As wielding a power fist or thunder hammer doubles the Strength characteristic on the model’s profile before any other modifiers are applied, this will mean the model’s Strength of 5 is doubled to 10"

Mutatis Mutandis for eldar jetbikes.

**Yarium**

While that indicates it being the RAI, until they say as such in the rules or an faq, the RAW remains the same. I hope they change it though and that's a good argument to have in your toolbox

**Charistoph**

Language does not match.

The Thunderwolf states it "increases their Strength, Toughness, Attacks and Wounds characteristics by 1".

Mesh Armour "confers a 5+ Armour Save."

Eldar Jetbike "has a 3+ Armour Save".

But then trying to understand the illogic and contradictory nature of these FAQ drafts leaves me wondering how much I wish to continue to invest in this game.

**NorseSig**

Charistoph wrote:
Language does not match.

The Thunderwolf states it "increases their Strength, Toughness, Attacks and Wounds characteristics by 1".

Mesh Armour "confers a 5+ Armour Save."

Eldar Jetbike "has a 3+ Armour Save".

But then trying to understand the illogic and contradictory nature of these FAQ drafts leaves me wondering how much I wish to continue to invest in this game.

Agreed, they are all over the place with these faqs.

**Yarium**

Well, I think the problem is obvious in that they have not carefully consulted their own rules. I mean, they literally state the order of operations for calculating altered characteristics in the rulebook. If they want to deviate from that, they need to be crystal clear about it. As it stands, most of these seem to be clearing up the intent, but that the intent has not been communicated appropriately.

Still, I applaud the effort. These weekly updates are LIGHTYEARS better than the "nothing at all" we've been served until now. Personally, they've reinvigorated my involvement in the game.

**Charistoph**

Yes, the FAQs are all over the place and inconsistent. However, I should note that it has not been uncommon for later FAQs to do a 180 on the answer, or come up with a different resolution all together.

**Lord Perversor**

Charistoph wrote:
Language does not match.

The Thunderwolf states it "increases their Strength, Toughness, Attacks and Wounds characteristics by 1".

Mesh Armour "confers a 5+ Armour Save."

Eldar Jetbike "has a 3+ Armour Save".

But then trying to understand the illogic and contradictory nature of these FAQ drafts leaves me wondering how much I wish to continue to invest in this game.

Wich is largely irrelevant as the FAQ says the Profile matters as it is not a modified one.

Windriders profile shows a T4 and 3+ save due Jetbike wargear built in wich should be the profile we should check when resolving attacks on them.

P.S: ludicrous thing a chaplain or marine captain may end with a 2+ / 3++ 4++ 5++ save due iron aura, termi armor, and storm shield, does that means they can choose their saves too should they be affected by grav weapons?

**Traditio**

LP:

Grav weapons are resolved against the armor save when making the to-wound roll. A chaplain in terminator armor takes an AP 2 wound on a 2+ to-wound roll.

If he has a storm shield, he then takes a 3+ invuln save, unless he has a better cover save.

At this point in the FAQs, I think we should all be very clear on what GW is telling us:

Stop rules lawyering. Use common sense. Play in a way that wouldn't make the average person roll his eyes.

**Charistoph**

Lord Perversor wrote:
Wich is largely irrelevant as the FAQ says the Profile matters as it is not a modified one.

Windriders profile shows a T4 and 3+ save due Jetbike wargear built in wich should be the profile we should check when resolving attacks on them.

P.S: ludicrous thing a chaplain or marine captain may end with a 2+ / 3++ 4++ 5++ save due iron aura, termi armor, and storm shield, does that means they can choose their saves too should they be affected by grav weapons?

Actually the FAQ does state it is a modified one. What it states instead is that the modification takes place before any others are applied.

And if the 3+ Save is the "built in" one, then the Mesh Armour takes precedence since it specifically is a modifier at that point.

Language is important in such a medium, and without proper usage one cannot apply things like common sense and logic to determining how it should work.

Traditio wrote:
At this point in the FAQs, I think we should all be very clear on what GW is telling us:

Stop rules lawyering. Use common sense. Play in a way that wouldn't make the average person roll his eyes.

Except they aren't using common sense and countering many of how they have written their words, and sometimes countering their own statements in different portions of their FAQs. "Common Sense" is not being applied by them here, so why should it be elsewhere?

**Happyjew**

Lord Perversor wrote:
P.S: ludicrous thing a chaplain or marine captain may end with a 2+ / 3++ 4++ 5++ save due iron aura, termi armor, and storm shield, does that means they can choose their saves too should they be affected by grav weapons?

Sure, however they only have one armour save to choose from (2+) for the purpose of wounding, but three that they can use for saving throws (since Grav is AP 2).