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It appears that Thomas Mair may have had connections to Britain First despite their denials:



Zoomed in:

Well that looks convincing that he had a link. However how deep does that link go?

Was it surface or is there something more concrete. ?

 jhe90 wrote:
Well that looks convincing that he had a link. However how deep does that link go?

Was it surface or is there something more concrete. ?

No idea with Britain First specifically, but there is apparently evidence of him being a subscriber to a White South African Supremacist magazine, having spent about $600 on books from a US neo-nazi website and having been a member of (maybe attended - I didn't take in the full details) an ultra conservative group in London. If he's been 'around' the UK right-wing scene for 20 - 30 years, even if not physically but just by ordering books, magazine etc and on the internet, I don't see that he couldn't have been at least aware of Britain First as an organisation. That said, he isn't a name I've seen associated with any of the currently active far-right groups, although I wouldn't profess to be an expert. What I mean by that is there's names that if they had done this I would instantly recognise, his isn't one.

 jhe90 wrote:
Well that looks convincing that he had a link. However how deep does that link go?

Was it surface or is there something more concrete. ?

There's no evidence at all that he was an intrinsic part of the operation - I doubt he was. There's plenty of evidence that he was a rather inadequate, mentally ill person who fell prey to far-right propaganda. Those kind of folks are a key part of the far-right's constituency, after all.

I've also seen several claims on Facebook that this was a False Flag operation run by the Remain campaign. Once again, America leads, the UK follows.


.

The idea that this is some kind of false flag operation by the remain campaign is grossly offensive, and the very worst kind of conspiracy theory nonsense.

 Hivefleet Oblivion wrote:

 jhe90 wrote:
Well that looks convincing that he had a link. However how deep does that link go?

Was it surface or is there something more concrete. ?

There's no evidence at all that he was an intrinsic part of the operation - I doubt he was. There's plenty of evidence that he was a rather inadequate, mentally ill person who fell prey to far-right propaganda. Those kind of folks are a key part of the far-right's constituency, after all.

I've also seen several claims on Facebook that this was a False Flag operation run by the Remain campaign. Once again, America leads, the UK follows.


.

Like I said in the EU thread, going forward we're going to get a lot of "Everyone thats supports LEAVE are Far Right Fascists!", and the inevitable "Jo Cox was a False Flag!" conspiracy lunacy.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 General Kroll wrote:
The idea that this is some kind of false flag operation by the remain campaign is grossly offensive, and the very worst kind of conspiracy theory nonsense.

I agree. Exploiting Jo Cox's murder and trying to tar everyone on the Leave side as Far Right extremists is also offensive.

The more of the latter we see, the more it will encourage the former.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

 Hivefleet Oblivion wrote:

 jhe90 wrote:
Well that looks convincing that he had a link. However how deep does that link go?

Was it surface or is there something more concrete. ?

There's no evidence at all that he was an intrinsic part of the operation - I doubt he was. There's plenty of evidence that he was a rather inadequate, mentally ill person who fell prey to far-right propaganda. Those kind of folks are a key part of the far-right's constituency, after all.

I've also seen several claims on Facebook that this was a False Flag operation run by the Remain campaign. Once again, America leads, the UK follows.


.

Like I said in the EU thread, going forward we're going to get a lot of "Everyone thats supports LEAVE are Far Right Fascists!", and the inevitable "Jo Cox was a False Flag!" conspiracy lunacy.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 General Kroll wrote:
The idea that this is some kind of false flag operation by the remain campaign is grossly offensive, and the very worst kind of conspiracy theory nonsense.

I agree. Exploiting Jo Cox's murder and trying to tar everyone on the Leave side as Far Right extremists is also offensive.

The more of the latter we see, the more it will encourage the former.

I don't think I've seen anyone suggesting that everyone on the leave side is a far right extremist. That's a bit of a strawman argument frankly.

And while not everyone who votes leave is a racist, I'd be suprised if every far right racist doesn't vote leave. still I'd say this is the wrong thread for that kind of discussion.

Nobody here, no. Its not a straw man because I'm not accusing anyone in this thread.

As for your comment about everyone in the Far Right voting for Leave, well that goes without saying. Though how its possible for White Brits to be racist against White Europeans is beyond me. Xenophobia is a more accurate term.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
Nobody here, no. Its not a straw man because I'm not accusing anyone in this thread.

As for your comment about everyone in the Far Right voting for Leave, well that goes without saying. Though how its possible for White Brits to be racist against White Europeans is beyond me. Xenophobia is a more accurate term.

There's plenty of different categories of white people as far as the extreme right is concerned.

 General Kroll wrote:
The idea that this is some kind of false flag operation by the remain campaign is grossly offensive, and the very worst kind of conspiracy theory nonsense.

Not just that, but no-one will change their mind about how to vote because they think, "I hate immigration from the EU but I hate people shooting people who are in favour of immigration from the EU even more."

It's a plain stupid idea.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
It could just as easily be a double-false flag op by Leave campaigners.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

I agree. Exploiting Jo Cox's murder and trying to tar everyone on the Leave side as Far Right extremists is also offensive.

There have been a lot of pre-emptive comments along these lines, haven't there? I can't say that I've seen any evidence of what whatsoever - the nearest it's come to that, is people highlighting Farage's recent poster with Nazi overtones, and footage where he says there will be violence if people feelings on Europe are ignored, and citing it as an example of the irresponsibility of some of this debate. That's as far as people have gone - and it is surely a reasonable point to make?

Personally, I'd say the general media reaction has bent over backwards to placate the Brexit crew. the media have not ONCE suggested this was a right-wing terrorist attack - instead, it's talk of a mentally-deranged loner. Compare that with the Lee Rigby stabbing - which was universally described as terrorism.

My personal belief is, that had a Brexit campaigner been killed by a Muslim or left-winger, the Brexit campaign would have been all over it, invoking the fear of terrorism. Perhaps it's only people of colour who are terrorists .

Don't be silly.


Terrorism can never be caused by a person of the same race and colour of the majority of the country where the incident took place. :sarcasm:

 welshhoppo wrote:

Terrorism can never be caused by a person of the same race and colour of the majority of the country where the incident took place. :sarcasm:

Unless their Irish of course.

 welshhoppo wrote:
Don't be silly.


Terrorism can never be caused by a person of the same race and colour of the majority of the country where the incident took place. :sarcasm:

Nobody heres saying that. Of course he's a terrorist. Mentally ill Muslims off their heads on drugs are also still terrorists.

 Hivefleet Oblivion wrote:

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

I agree. Exploiting Jo Cox's murder and trying to tar everyone on the Leave side as Far Right extremists is also offensive.

There have been a lot of pre-emptive comments along these lines, haven't there? I can't say that I've seen any evidence of what whatsoever - the nearest it's come to that, is people highlighting Farage's recent poster with Nazi overtones, and footage where he says there will be violence if people feelings on Europe are ignored, and citing it as an example of the irresponsibility of some of this debate. That's as far as people have gone - and it is surely a reasonable point to make?

Like SCE said before, nobody in this thread has said it, but--rather fortunately--Off-topic doesn't represent everyone involved. My comment regarding it was hardly pre-emptive, given that it was based on the comments around various social medias that I had already seen when Jo was still fighting for her life. Just a few hours ago a Remainer on FB even posted about how tiring it is seeing an entire side of the referendum tarred with the same racist, bigoted brush, and others have since agreed. There's nothing pre-emptive about it; it's a proven fact that these comments have already been made, and they will likely continue to be made by people who are more interested in trying to make an entire chunk of the UK's population out to be fascists instead of choosing to debate with facts and logic. Hell, some Leavers have already switched to remain not because they support it, but because of the undeserved stigma that voting Leave may bring.

That is not to say that Remainers are to blame for this, either; I want to make that abundantly clear. These people may claim allegiance to the Remain campaign, but like the extremist Leavers they use to make these sweeping denunciations, they themselves are extremists, and to claim that they are indicative of an entire side of this referendum is pure lunacy.

 Avatar 720 wrote:
There's nothing pre-emptive about it; it's a proven fact that these comments have already been made, and they will likely continue to be made by people who are more interested in trying to make an entire chunk of the UK's population out to be fascists instead of choosing to debate with facts and logic..

AS far as I'm aware, on the record, one Labour MP and friend of Jo Cox said that people had been irresponsible. He was criticised for it. He said this: ": 'I think that the kind of nonsense that they inspire online from anonymous accounts and actually the core content of the poster they launched today, look at what they are putting out and I just think that they are a very dangerous, and they risk inspiring extremist elements on the hard right in this country.'

This is the only "leave-blaming" response, and it's been widely criticised as excessive.

Do you believe that, if a Muslim supporter of, say, Momentum, had murdered a prominent Brexiteer, there would have been more restrained, or less restrained, responses?


.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

 welshhoppo wrote:
Don't be silly.


Terrorism can never be caused by a person of the same race and colour of the majority of the country where the incident took place. :sarcasm:

Nobody heres saying that. Of course he's a terrorist. Mentally ill Muslims off their heads on drugs are also still terrorists.

Yet none of the media outlets are calling this a terrorist attack, and I doubt any of them will.


It's a sad fact that if the attacker was a Muslim/foreign it would have been a terrorist attack from the first reports.

I've seen people commenting on news articles to the effect that "Care in the Community is a joke", with mental health services being cut and dangerous mentally ill people being left to roam unsupervised. "The Westminster bubble has been burst" and "now MP's know what members of the public have to deal with".

Jo Cox's murder should at the very least prompt a review of these mental health services.

Hivefleet Oblivion wrote:AS far as I'm aware, on the record, one Labour MP and friend of Jo Cox said that people had been irresponsible. He was criticised for it. He said this: ": 'I think that the kind of nonsense that they inspire online from anonymous accounts and actually the core content of the poster they launched today, look at what they are putting out and I just think that they are a very dangerous, and they risk inspiring extremist elements on the hard right in this country.'

This is the only "leave-blaming" response, and it's been widely criticised as excessive.

You're ignoring the fact that thousands of regular voters are also capable of sharing their opinions. That may be the only 'official' response, but there have been many, many 'unofficial' ones made by regular people.

welshhoppo wrote:Yet none of the media outlets are calling this a terrorist attack, and I doubt any of them will.

The Times seems to have gotten the closest, with headline leading with his links to far-right terrorism and also detailing the high chance of him being tried on terrorism charges. They've stopped short of outright calling him a terrorist, but the article implies it clearly enough.

 Avatar 720 wrote:


You're ignoring the fact that thousands of regular voters are also capable of sharing their opinions. That may be the only 'official' response, but there have been many, many 'unofficial' ones made by regular people.

If we're talking the "Brexit as victim" card, I'm sure there will have been many Remain supporters overall who've linked Jo's murder with Brexit extremism. But we can't measure that, so I'm talking about what's been said in public.

Personaly, I've seen many people talking about how Farage's ads ape Nazi propaganda... but I've seen more deranged Brexiteers claim this was a False Flag attack. For instance, from a DJ in Yorkshire, yesterday morning: ". I believe 1000's of other people a voting to leave, but I seriously don't think it's gonna happen especially by how far their willing to go by having people murdered. ...The proof will be the remain then watch our country be flooded." On another thread, yesterday, someone talked about "Muslims breeding".

So, we can easily find extreme views on social media, and from what I've seen the hate talk has been confined to one side. But still, it's more meaningful for us to talk about the mainstream reaction, because that's something all of us here can see.

And, as pointed out, there's been claims that Jo's death has been "used" , in the headlines... when no-one on the Remain side has made explicit suggestions along those lines.

Like you're using it now?

If you look on social media, or forums for that matter, you can find and opinion you want. Unless those comments have been made by, or copied by, someone in the public eye, you can't point to them as evidence of anything other than the fact that the Internet gives everyone a public voice, no matter how bizarre their views. You can't claim it's a view of any group, unlese you have an agender yourself.

 notprop wrote:
Like you're using it now?

I'm saying this seems to be a terrorist murder. But isn't being reported as such. Disagree? tell us why.

I don't really care for the semantics of what you call him, he's a criminal and will face the appropriate charges.

You however seems to be drawing up your own narrative around it to sell a grubby veiw of people that would rather Britain remains a sovereign nation. Then you invoke "Jo's" name to underline the point.......because no Remainer would do such a thing....

Puzzling irony.

 notprop wrote:
I don't really care for the semantics of what you call him, he's a criminal and will face the appropriate charges.

You however seems to be drawing up your own narrative around it to sell a grubby veiw of people that would rather Britain remains a sovereign nation. Then you invoke "Jo's" name to underline the point.......because no Remainer would do such a thing....

Puzzling irony.

Hmmm. Your own judgement is so distorted that you think using someone's first name is offensive... in a scenario when you well know someone has been murdered for her political views. Certainly not for her views about Brexit or Remain, but something much more profound.

I will leave this here as it's beyond resolution on this thread.

 Hivefleet Oblivion wrote:
I'm saying this seems to be a terrorist murder. But isn't being reported as such. Disagree? tell us why.

I don't think it fits the profile. Terror attacks are supposed to spread fear and unrest through the general population. People need to feel like it could happen to them. The assassination of politicians doesn't really do that, unless you're an MP you're probably not any more concerned than usual about being murdered by a crazy person. I wouldn't call the assassination of JFK a terror attack, why should this be any different?

The assassination of politicians or prominent individuals of society can and should be considered an act of terrorism under certain circunstances.

 Hivefleet Oblivion wrote:

 notprop wrote:
I don't really care for the semantics of what you call him, he's a criminal and will face the appropriate charges.

You however seems to be drawing up your own narrative around it to sell a grubby veiw of people that would rather Britain remains a sovereign nation. Then you invoke "Jo's" name to underline the point.......because no Remainer would do such a thing....

Puzzling irony.

Hmmm. Your own judgement is so distorted that you think using someone's first name is offensive... in a scenario when you well know someone has been murdered for her political views. Certainly not for her views about Brexit or Remain, but something much more profound.

I will leave this here as it's beyond resolution on this thread.

No, she was murdered for the political views of her murderer.

What none of this has to do with is the referendum, though you seem to be trying your hardest to tarnish Leave campaigners by associating them with this act. Most distasteful.

Let's back off from calling other posters distasteful and what not specifically, it's hardly polite. Thanks

 Smacks wrote:

 Hivefleet Oblivion wrote:
I'm saying this seems to be a terrorist murder. But isn't being reported as such. Disagree? tell us why.

I don't think it fits the profile. Terror attacks are supposed to spread fear and unrest through the general population. People need to feel like it could happen to them. The assassination of politicians doesn't really do that, unless you're an MP you're probably not any more concerned than usual about being murdered by a crazy person. I wouldn't call the assassination of JFK a terror attack, why should this be any different?

Murders intended to make a point or terrorise people, to push a political agenda or to suppress certain views can certainly fall into that category. Previous murders of Tory MPs like Airey Neave were all categorised as terrorism. You tend to have to be "foreign" to be a terrorist in some people's view.

You can take two views about this horrible event, although they're not necessarily mutually exclusive; one is that this referendum has been negative, invoking barely-suppressed hatred and tensions, enough to sway a presumably easily-influenced individual. Secondly, political discourse has been debased - it's ok to say politicians are venal and cynical, and therefore we stop seeing them as human beings. One individual turned up on Radio 4 this evening saying, in effect, that they were all "at it"... seemed to think many of them deserved to die.

 notprop wrote:
...you seem to be trying your hardest to tarnish Leave campaigners by associating them with this act. Most distasteful.

You seem to keep saying that; I have said it nowhere, there are many Leave campaigners whose views I accept. If someone attacked Nigel Farage, I would admit it's an awful thing and say the debate has got too nasty and heated. Do you think that is the case? Or do you think Mrs Cox's murder is not connected with the imminent referendum?

If I'm criticising anyone specific, it's certain sectors of the press for an obvious double standard.

Edit. In any case, the daily Mail has now changed its editorial line, with updated information. It has run a story on the extremist groups who have instructed members to get involved with the Leave campaign. Of course, no-one is suggesting the typical Leave member shares their views, but it is on the record that some sectors of the Leave campaign believe that Immigration, rather than the economy or sovereignty, is the most effective tactic.