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 Dreadclaw69 wrote:

 Desubot wrote:
IIRC a wounded suspect also costs a gak ton more money than a dead one.

i would love/hate to see this confirmed.

but i have a feeling the training mentality comes from a liability and management standpoint over whats right or wrong.

In the heat of the moment with an exchange of gun fire lasting seconds do you believe that the officers are weighing up the cost of litigation/burden to the public purse? I very much doubt that it is a part of training to kill suspects because it is cheaper. That requires documentation, and with 1.1 million LEOs on a State and local level (so excluding Federal agents), and not counting the admin personnel who would be compiling and preparing these documents, I find it hard to believe that a widespread and systemic shoot to save liability policy has not come to light.

im not saying they actively do it with that intent, im saying that is probably how they are trained by administration.

and also dont think the number of killings would really put a burden on paper jockys all that much. especially considering the amount of paper work they have to do for just about anything and everything.

There was an interesting show last night on PTSD in the police force here in Australia. It was mostly about the terrible way PTSD sufferers were treated after they made their claim and left the police force, but it did go in to some detail about how PTSD affects officers and their performance. One point it made was that people who are suffering PTSD and continuing to be exposed to stressful incidents will commonly increase their aggression as a response.

It isn't a complete answer for the shooting problems in the US, as it sounded like PTSD is a problem for police forces everywhere and the US kind of stands alone in its rate of police shootings, but it could be a part of a bigger answer.

 sebster wrote:
There was an interesting show last night on PTSD in the police force here in Australia. It was mostly about the terrible way PTSD sufferers were treated after they made their claim and left the police force, but it did go in to some detail about how PTSD affects officers and their performance. One point it made was that people who are suffering PTSD and continuing to be exposed to stressful incidents will commonly increase their aggression as a response.

It isn't a complete answer for the shooting problems in the US, as it sounded like PTSD is a problem for police forces everywhere and the US kind of stands alone in its rate of police shootings, but it could be a part of a bigger answer.

Seb. That's an entirely new thread of discussion with PTSD. If this thread go into PTSD debate it will seriously derail the thread. The bold part I did above. I am the exact opposite is an example. I am not a subject matter expert on PTSD. Though I have been trained and taught to recognize potential "issues" that might be developing. Though if you do start that thread Seb I have no issue discussing and debating that issue. I think (actually a feeling0 that there are quite a few posters who have been "Jaded"(?) towards those of us with PTSD.



Besides Since I started on Dakkadakka we never had a actual PTSD thread.

Edit

"as an example".

Question: Do most European nations have a nation-wide police academy that all officers attend?

I'm trying to recall what the officers from the U.K. told me when I was working with them in college, but I honestly can't recall.

 gunslingerpro wrote:
Question: Do most European nations have a nation-wide police academy that all officers attend?

At least we do but then Finland is a small country and doesn't need to train that many policemen per year. 1,5 years of school and then a full year of work practice (paid though) as a junior constable. Seeing as we're more bureaucratic than the US (in some things at least) I'd imagine most other European countries also have nation-wide standards for police training even if some might have several academies due to population size, having different states (like Germany) or needing police capable of working in many languages.

Our police does shoot to kill in the rare cases they can't do anything else, like a crazy axeman charging them in a stairwell. But a guy out in the open threatening people with what looks like a weapon, well, the solution isn't automatically shoot to kill. The police will try to make him put the weapon down first (shouting from a safe distance). If he doesn't comply and it doesn't seem safe to go closer with something non-lethal like a tazer they'll either send a dog if they have one or try a leg shot. Very few people continue waving a gun around when they realize they've been hit. Actual shooters are rare - police will shoot if they or bystanders are in immediate danger but often the shooter can be isolated so there's time to bring in a negotiator and heavier gear. Last one in my home town was some guy who, because of various personal problems, started shooting out from his apartment at random. He didn't manage to harm anyone, the police quickly sealed off the area and then brought in specialists. Guy sadly offed himself rather than surrender, but on the other hand the police didn't need to risk their lives storming the place.

 Jihadin wrote:
Seb. That's an entirely new thread of discussion with PTSD. If this thread go into PTSD debate it will seriously derail the thread. The bold part I did above. I am the exact opposite is an example. I am not a subject matter expert on PTSD. Though I have been trained and taught to recognize potential "issues" that might be developing. Though if you do start that thread Seb I have no issue discussing and debating that issue. I think (actually a feeling0 that there are quite a few posters who have been "Jaded"(?) towards those of us with PTSD.

Yeah, that's a fair point. I know PTSD has been a touchy subject here, because of the misconception some people have towards sufferers as dangerous, and (quite reasonable) sensitivity others have to that misconception.

But moving on from that, it isn't an entirely new thread, because it is a suggested hypothesis for the subject in this thread - police shootings. That PTSD might touch on other issues that have been sensitive on dakka doesn't mean we can't ever discuss it in any other context.

 gunslingerpro wrote:
Question: Do most European nations have a nation-wide police academy that all officers attend?

I found this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Police_College

In Germany it's regionally (but probably nationally coordinated) and it takes 2,5 or 3 years (depending on your schooling, the longer one is for people whose school education qualified them for University/technical college, the system is a bit different here). There are slightly different job prospects as a civil servant/public officer depending on which way you go.

Here's the main overview on wikipedia (all in german): https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polizeiausbildung_in_Deutschland
the bavarian version with some details: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polizeiausbildung_in_Bayern
and the two routes: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mittlerer_Dienst and https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gehobener_Dienst

But before you get to do this you need to pass about 4 days of screening and it seems that some state like the 3 year extended course for university qualified people more because they expect a higher educated students and better results.

There also seems to be this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_ju-jutsu where they essentially stole from everywhere to build a weaponless self defense system for the police force.


That's after some googling, somebody with a police background can probably explain it better.