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Last I heard of Tetrad people were complaining it was too weak.

It's hard to use but not weak. The problem is the Slaanesh Prince. Moment he dies the tetrad starts falling apart due to losing bonuses. As long as you keep him alive the Tzeentch Prince and Khorne Princes are absolute monsters.

pm713 wrote:
Last I heard of Tetrad people were complaining it was too weak.

In person? I haven't really seen weakness complaints online, so just curious.

BossJakadakk wrote:

pm713 wrote:
Last I heard of Tetrad people were complaining it was too weak.

In person? I haven't really seen weakness complaints online, so just curious.

Online. It was generally that it was too few models.

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
It's hard to use but not weak. The problem is the Slaanesh Prince. Moment he dies the tetrad starts falling apart due to losing bonuses. As long as you keep him alive the Tzeentch Prince and Khorne Princes are absolute monsters.

Is it really hard to keep a flying MC with 2++ rerolls alive? I assure you - this is not in the least way difficult.

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
It's hard to use but not weak. The problem is the Slaanesh Prince. Moment he dies the tetrad starts falling apart due to losing bonuses. As long as you keep him alive the Tzeentch Prince and Khorne Princes are absolute monsters.

It opened my mind to a whole new level of critical thinking on the tabletop. But I came from Eldar


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pm713 wrote:

BossJakadakk wrote:

pm713 wrote:
Last I heard of Tetrad people were complaining it was too weak.

In person? I haven't really seen weakness complaints online, so just curious.

Online. It was generally that it was too few models.

Ah yeah. That was my first concern, actually. But the buff to toughness helps a lot, at least in my games so far. Scatbike spam against it would be a totally different story, but that just rolls most things anyway.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
It's hard to use but not weak. The problem is the Slaanesh Prince. Moment he dies the tetrad starts falling apart due to losing bonuses. As long as you keep him alive the Tzeentch Prince and Khorne Princes are absolute monsters.

Is it really hard to keep a flying MC with 2++ rerolls alive? I assure you - this is not in the least way difficult.

How does a Slaanesh Prince get a 2++ rerolling?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

BossJakadakk wrote:

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
It's hard to use but not weak. The problem is the Slaanesh Prince. Moment he dies the tetrad starts falling apart due to losing bonuses. As long as you keep him alive the Tzeentch Prince and Khorne Princes are absolute monsters.

It opened my mind to a whole new level of critical thinking on the tabletop. But I came from Eldar


Automatically Appended Next Post:

pm713 wrote:

BossJakadakk wrote:

pm713 wrote:
Last I heard of Tetrad people were complaining it was too weak.

In person? I haven't really seen weakness complaints online, so just curious.

Online. It was generally that it was too few models.

Ah yeah. That was my first concern, actually. But the buff to toughness helps a lot, at least in my games so far. Scatbike spam against it would be a totally different story, but that just rolls most things anyway.

I'm quite happy that it's decent actually.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
It's hard to use but not weak. The problem is the Slaanesh Prince. Moment he dies the tetrad starts falling apart due to losing bonuses. As long as you keep him alive the Tzeentch Prince and Khorne Princes are absolute monsters.

Is it really hard to keep a flying MC with 2++ rerolls alive? I assure you - this is not in the least way difficult.

This falls under the points limit allowing these shenanigans again, I think. In most standard-size games, 2++ isn't going to be as widespread through the army as it was in your game, let alone getting rerolls on everything.

pm713 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
It's hard to use but not weak. The problem is the Slaanesh Prince. Moment he dies the tetrad starts falling apart due to losing bonuses. As long as you keep him alive the Tzeentch Prince and Khorne Princes are absolute monsters.

Is it really hard to keep a flying MC with 2++ rerolls alive? I assure you - this is not in the least way difficult.

How does a Slaanesh Prince get a 2++ rerolling?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

BossJakadakk wrote:

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
It's hard to use but not weak. The problem is the Slaanesh Prince. Moment he dies the tetrad starts falling apart due to losing bonuses. As long as you keep him alive the Tzeentch Prince and Khorne Princes are absolute monsters.

It opened my mind to a whole new level of critical thinking on the tabletop. But I came from Eldar


Automatically Appended Next Post:

pm713 wrote:

BossJakadakk wrote:

pm713 wrote:
Last I heard of Tetrad people were complaining it was too weak.

In person? I haven't really seen weakness complaints online, so just curious.

Online. It was generally that it was too few models.

Ah yeah. That was my first concern, actually. But the buff to toughness helps a lot, at least in my games so far. Scatbike spam against it would be a totally different story, but that just rolls most things anyway.

I'm quite happy that it's decent actually.

It's harder to get him there but it's possible. He will at least be flying correct? with a 4+ invo at the very least?

I don't play Daemons but the closest I can think of with a Slaanesh Prince is 3++.

pm713 wrote:
I don't play Daemons but the closest I can think of with a Slaanesh Prince is 3++.

That's jsut standing a cursed earth and being within 9 inches of the +1 invo bubble warlord trait. That's not even counting possible warp-storm table.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
It's hard to use but not weak. The problem is the Slaanesh Prince. Moment he dies the tetrad starts falling apart due to losing bonuses. As long as you keep him alive the Tzeentch Prince and Khorne Princes are absolute monsters.

Is it really hard to keep a flying MC with 2++ rerolls alive? I assure you - this is not in the least way difficult.

To have a Slaanesh Prince with a 2++ reroll, you'll need to buff it with the Grimoire, the Warlord trait or Cursed Earth, and a third buff that actually grants rerolls to it (Slaanesh Daemons don't have rerollable invul saves. That's Tzeentch Daemon speciality). Without a whole suite of special rules backing it up, a Slaanesh Prince has 4 wounds, T6 (due to the Formation buff) and a 5+ invul save and that's it. 3+ armor save if you decide to shell out the 40 points for Warpforged Armor (which most people don't due to the formation already bleeding points as it is).

If your opponent told you his non-Tzeentch Daemons had rerolls as well, he was either using a Psychic Power I wasn't aware of OR he lied to you. Only Tzeentch Daemons get rerolls and only rerolls of 1, nothing else.

 Xenomancers wrote:

pm713 wrote:
I don't play Daemons but the closest I can think of with a Slaanesh Prince is 3++.

That's jsut standing a cursed earth and being within 9 inches of the +1 invo bubble warlord trait. That's not even counting possible warp-storm table.

This explains A LOT. So the +1 invul WL trait is a Tz trait and the bubble only affect Tz units. If the WL is one of the Tetrad Princes, then all Princes share the trait, but there is no possible scenario to re-roll your WL trait for this formation, meaning only a 1 in 6 chance to get it. If that is what you're opponent rolled AND most of his army was Tzeentch, it's really no wonder you lost.

If your opponent had rolled literally ANY other trait, I suspect your game would have gone quite differently. At 3000pts, getting that specific trait pretty much won the game for the Daemon player.

--

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
It's hard to use but not weak. The problem is the Slaanesh Prince. Moment he dies the tetrad starts falling apart due to losing bonuses. As long as you keep him alive the Tzeentch Prince and Khorne Princes are absolute monsters.

Is it really hard to keep a flying MC with 2++ rerolls alive? I assure you - this is not in the least way difficult.

To have a Slaanesh Prince with a 2++ reroll, you'll need to buff it with the Grimoire, the Warlord trait or Cursed Earth, and a third buff that actually grants rerolls to it (Slaanesh Daemons don't have rerollable invul saves. That's Tzeentch Daemon speciality). Without a whole suite of special rules backing it up, a Slaanesh Prince has 4 wounds, T6 (due to the Formation buff) and a 5+ invul save and that's it. 3+ armor save if you decide to shell out the 40 points for Warpforged Armor (which most people don't due to the formation already bleeding points as it is).

If your opponent told you his non-Tzeentch Daemons had rerolls as well, he was either using a Psychic Power I wasn't aware of OR he lied to you. Only Tzeentch Daemons get rerolls and only rerolls of 1, nothing else.

He had 3 Tzeetch daemons - thats why I said rerolls by mistake. There is an item I think that grants reroll invo save in the incursion book - not sure is that is mark specific ether.


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 Galef wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

pm713 wrote:
I don't play Daemons but the closest I can think of with a Slaanesh Prince is 3++.

That's jsut standing a cursed earth and being within 9 inches of the +1 invo bubble warlord trait. That's not even counting possible warp-storm table.

This explains A LOT. So the +1 invul WL trait is a Tz trait and the bubble only affect Tz units. If the WL is one of the Tetrad Princes, they all share the trait, but there is no possible scenario to re-roll your WL trait for this formation, meaning only a 1 in 6 chance to get it. If that is what you're opponent rolled AND most of his army was Tzeentch, it's really no wonder you lost.

If your opponent had rolled literally ANY other trait, I suspect your game would have gone quite differently.

It only effects TZ units?

There is no relic that grants rerolling invul saves that I know of that a non-Tzeentchian Daemon would have access to, so I assumed it was one of the Psychic Powers.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The Warp Tether Warlord Trait grants it to the Warlord AND daemons of Tzeentch within 9", so a DP of Slaanesh can get it if he made the Tzeentch Prince in the Tetrad as the Warlord and got extremely lucky on the roll.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
It's hard to use but not weak. The problem is the Slaanesh Prince. Moment he dies the tetrad starts falling apart due to losing bonuses. As long as you keep him alive the Tzeentch Prince and Khorne Princes are absolute monsters.

Is it really hard to keep a flying MC with 2++ rerolls alive? I assure you - this is not in the least way difficult.

To have a Slaanesh Prince with a 2++ reroll, you'll need to buff it with the Grimoire, the Warlord trait or Cursed Earth, and a third buff that actually grants rerolls to it (Slaanesh Daemons don't have rerollable invul saves. That's Tzeentch Daemon speciality). Without a whole suite of special rules backing it up, a Slaanesh Prince has 4 wounds, T6 (due to the Formation buff) and a 5+ invul save and that's it. 3+ armor save if you decide to shell out the 40 points for Warpforged Armor (which most people don't due to the formation already bleeding points as it is).

If your opponent told you his non-Tzeentch Daemons had rerolls as well, he was either using a Psychic Power I wasn't aware of OR he lied to you. Only Tzeentch Daemons get rerolls and only rerolls of 1, nothing else.

He had 3 Tzeetch daemons - thats why I said rerolls by mistake. There is an item I think that grants reroll invo save in the incursion book - not sure is that is mark specific ether.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Galef wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

pm713 wrote:
I don't play Daemons but the closest I can think of with a Slaanesh Prince is 3++.

That's jsut standing a cursed earth and being within 9 inches of the +1 invo bubble warlord trait. That's not even counting possible warp-storm table.

This explains A LOT. So the +1 invul WL trait is a Tz trait and the bubble only affect Tz units. If the WL is one of the Tetrad Princes, they all share the trait, but there is no possible scenario to re-roll your WL trait for this formation, meaning only a 1 in 6 chance to get it. If that is what you're opponent rolled AND most of his army was Tzeentch, it's really no wonder you lost.

If your opponent had rolled literally ANY other trait, I suspect your game would have gone quite differently.

It only effects TZ units?

TZ units and the other daemon princes in the tetrad (assuming the dp of tzeentch was the warlord), because they share the WL trait, and it calls out "The warlord and tzeentch units within *yada yada yada*"

The trait effects the WL and all Tz units within 9". Since the Tetrad share WL traits, it would also effect the non-Tz Princes. But that's ONLY if his WL was a member of the Tetrad.

There is a Greater reward that grants re-roll invuls. This is available to any Daemon that can buy Greater rewards, which Tetrad DPs will most assuredly have 2 of.

-

His warlord had to be the Tzeentch Daemon Prince too, not just any prince since the other princes can't roll on the Tzeentch Warlord trait.

EDIT: Ah right, Greater Rewards. I'm the guy who usually trade those for weapons instead >.>

There are always bad matchups. My KDK love playing deathstar, small unit number lists. Riptides, eldar bikes, marine bikes, etc.

Why? Because they do not have enough firepower to stop me from taking objectives. I have limitless numbers of models to cover the board, and I generate more units as they kill them.

Against Space Marine MSU? Ugh, just a slogfest that usually ends in a draw or close loss.

Point is, that daemon list is good at some things, and falls flat on it's face against any anti-psyker armies. (Grey Knights with santic, assasins, etc)

 Xenomancers wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Oldmike wrote:
Daemons are all about luck of the dice if it is bad you lose
Seen a warlord roll 1 twice and get vaporized

he failed a 2++ reroll and failed a leadership of 10?

What? No, double 1's on Warp Storm forces an Instability check on a character. 3D6 Leadership test, no saves except FNP. I've had it kill my warlord too. Stop spreading gak.

That doesn't happen anymore...double 1's on warpstorm is impossible with demonic incursion - the worst you can do is a result of a 2 - which I honestly don't know what it is - but it's not that bad PLUS - if it happend you would just reroll the result with fate-weaver for a more pleasant result. Sure I guess it's possible they could roll another 1 with the re-roll but it's very unlikely.

I figured he was talking about impossible robes since I already have made it abundantly clear that double 1's on warp-storm table can not happen with daemonic incursion.

Dude a 3 is much worse than a 2, a roll of double ones requires your whole army to take instability checks, this means (with most units at LD 7) you will lose a buttload of models, not including if you roll double 6 and lose whole units, then there is a roll of a 3... like mentioned before a random character has to take a 3d6 leadership which is very likely to kill any warlord, again not including rolling any double 6's.

This danger far outweighs the pro's of rolling a 12 or 11 (unless enemy warlord is a psyker)

I've never found Daemons to be broken, just infuriating, and it's not even losing to them that irritated me the most it was watching them lose to everything else and wondering Why the hell did he get all the luck against me?

The main problem with Daemons is that if you roll really good or really bad, it's a curb stomp (just changes direction) and there's absolutely nothing you can do about it. Which is probably why it's frustrating. If a streak hits you, even a mild one, it no longer feels like you're playing the game since angry Khorne fists will literally start appearing from the skies to kick you.

Reavas wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Oldmike wrote:
Daemons are all about luck of the dice if it is bad you lose
Seen a warlord roll 1 twice and get vaporized

he failed a 2++ reroll and failed a leadership of 10?

What? No, double 1's on Warp Storm forces an Instability check on a character. 3D6 Leadership test, no saves except FNP. I've had it kill my warlord too. Stop spreading gak.

That doesn't happen anymore...double 1's on warpstorm is impossible with demonic incursion - the worst you can do is a result of a 2 - which I honestly don't know what it is - but it's not that bad PLUS - if it happend you would just reroll the result with fate-weaver for a more pleasant result. Sure I guess it's possible they could roll another 1 with the re-roll but it's very unlikely.

I figured he was talking about impossible robes since I already have made it abundantly clear that double 1's on warp-storm table can not happen with daemonic incursion.

Dude a 3 is much worse than a 2, a roll of double ones requires your whole army to take instability checks, this means (with most units at LD 7) you will lose a buttload of models, not including if you roll double 6 and lose whole units, then there is a roll of a 3... like mentioned before a random character has to take a 3d6 leadership which is very likely to kill any warlord, again not including rolling any double 6's.

This danger far outweighs the pro's of rolling a 12 or 11 (unless enemy warlord is a psyker)

Well - in the incursion you will never be forced to take a 3 result. The worst you would be forced to take is a 1 or 2 if you roll double ones. So as far as I can tell - the main weakness of the daemons has been removed with incursion. The enemy warlord or any psyker is still at risk every turn of becoming a herald - while you can always take the best of your 3 options.

 Dakka Wolf wrote:
I've never found Daemons to be broken, just infuriating, and it's not even losing to them that irritated me the most it was watching them lose to everything else and wondering Why the hell did he get all the luck against me?

Yeah, the one loss I had against an all Khorne list my friend was running, and I was using my Tyranids, he rolled an 11 on the Warp Storm, and my Swarmlord rolled an 11 on his LD check. Rip him.

Otherwise, they're completely luck based, unless you run strict cheese and know exactly what you're doing, and even then you still need a lot of luck.

 krodarklorr wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:
I've never found Daemons to be broken, just infuriating, and it's not even losing to them that irritated me the most it was watching them lose to everything else and wondering Why the hell did he get all the luck against me?

Yeah, the one loss I had against an all Khorne list my friend was running, and I was using my Tyranids, he rolled an 11 on the Warp Storm, and my Swarmlord rolled an 11 on his LD check. Rip him.

Otherwise, they're completely luck based, unless you run strict cheese and know exactly what you're doing, and even then you still need a lot of luck.

I sympathize mate, he got my Wolf Lord. Three possible rolls to fail and I got one of them.

Let's also not forget that models in the Incursion also re-roll Instability checks. So even if you roll a 2 (or bump it to a 3) the models taking the test(s) will get to re-roll the result.

Note that while an Incursion allows you to add/subtract from the Warp Storm and that will apply to ALL Daemons, not just the ones in the Incursion, the re-roll Instability only applies to models in the Incursion. So if there is a CAD alongside, the models in the CAD do not get to re-roll Instability.

For the Warp Storm, the only bad results for the Daemons are 2, 3, & 4. 4 being the absolute worst. If you roll a 4, you bump to 5. If you roll a 3, you probably keep it, if you roll a 2, you bump to 3.

-

In regards to the 2++ reroll Slaanesh discussion above, the Greater Reward table does allow for Dark Blessing (re-roll failed invuln saves) on a roll of 4. Rare but possible. Not as good as Daemon of Tzeentch (re-roll ALL saves) but that argument is situational.

 reiner wrote:
In regards to the 2++ reroll Slaanesh discussion above, the Greater Reward table does allow for Dark Blessing (re-roll failed invuln saves) on a roll of 4. Rare but possible. Not as good as Daemon of Tzeentch (re-roll ALL saves of '1') but that argument is situational.

Underlined edit added for clarity. I'm sure you knew this, but just in case someone read it wrong

 Galef wrote:

 reiner wrote:
In regards to the 2++ reroll Slaanesh discussion above, the Greater Reward table does allow for Dark Blessing (re-roll failed invuln saves) on a roll of 4. Rare but possible. Not as good as Daemon of Tzeentch (re-roll ALL saves of '1') but that argument is situational.

Underlined edit added for clarity. I'm sure you knew this, but just in case someone read it wrong

Appreciate the backup on clarification, Galef, because yes.

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:
I've never found Daemons to be broken, just infuriating, and it's not even losing to them that irritated me the most it was watching them lose to everything else and wondering Why the hell did he get all the luck against me?

Yeah, the one loss I had against an all Khorne list my friend was running, and I was using my Tyranids, he rolled an 11 on the Warp Storm, and my Swarmlord rolled an 11 on his LD check. Rip him.

Otherwise, they're completely luck based, unless you run strict cheese and know exactly what you're doing, and even then you still need a lot of luck.

I sympathize mate, he got my Wolf Lord. Three possible rolls to fail and I got one of them.

Yeah, doesn't happen often. But when it does, it stings.