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If you think this is specifically about this specific incident, you'd be wrong.
We were once so close to heaven, St. Peter came out and gave us medals; declaring us "The nicest of the damned".
“Anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.'”
feeder wrote: If you think this is specifically about this specific incident, you'd be wrong.
That's just using faulty reasoning to find some basis to excuse violent criminal behavior. The idea that anytime a black person gets shot by cops is now automatically a grave injustice that necessitates and justifies a violent criminal rampage is both patronizing and absurd. Looting and destroying stores isn't by any training the only way or even an effective way to enact governmental reforms.
I'm not sure lamenting that things have come to this point, and holding neglect of the social problems behind it as responsible is the same thing as excusing violent criminal behavior.
curran12 wrote: I find it harder and harder to have sympathy for the police in these instances. As Vakthai has put it, this is not some wild, isolated incident, this has been a long-building anger and frustration that is now reaching a flashpoint. Years, decades of this kind of thing are coming home to roost, and the police shoulder some of this responsibility. They've burned their goodwill so badly that the perception is that all shots are abuses and crimes.
The police shoulder responsibility that a man was brandishing a weapon and approaching them?
Sure looks like snow on the ground in that picture.
LordofHats wrote: I'm not sure lamenting that things have come to this point, and holding neglect of the social problems behind it as responsible is the same thing as excusing violent criminal behavior.
Neglect of social problems is bad and has been going on for the last 50+ years and it's long past time for politicians to stop using it as a wedge issue to pander for votes and start treating it seriously. Years of neglect didn't go on a violent rampage in Charlotte, people chose to do that and when you deflect the responsibility for that criminal behavior away from the individuals who committed the acts and put on social neglect instead it's excusing/justifying that criminal behavior. The people in the community have every right to be upset and to protest but they don't have the right to break the law, endanger people's lives and destroy property and there's no excuse for that kind of behavior.
Choices are not made in a vacuum, and expecting people to be blind and dumb about the history of law enforcement violence, particularly towards African American communities, that has led to this event is being rather obtuse. I don't see anyone saying rioting is a good thing, or not a crime. Harping on how rioting is bad and criminal, isn't really going to resolve the problem that led to the rioting.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/09/22 00:37:23
curran12 wrote: I find it harder and harder to have sympathy for the police in these instances. As Vakthai has put it, this is not some wild, isolated incident, this has been a long-building anger and frustration that is now reaching a flashpoint. Years, decades of this kind of thing are coming home to roost, and the police shoulder some of this responsibility. They've burned their goodwill so badly that the perception is that all shots are abuses and crimes.
The police shoulder responsibility that a man was brandishing a weapon and approaching them?
Sure looks like snow on the ground in that picture.
It's those late summer snowfalls the south is famous for.
LordofHats wrote: Choices are not made in a vacuum, and expecting people to be blind and dumb about the history of law enforcement violence, particularly towards African American communities, that has led to this event is being rather obtuse. I don't see anyone saying rioting is a good thing, or not a crime. Harping on how rioting is bad and criminal, isn't really going to resolve the problem that led to the rioting.
Rioting isn't going to solve the problem that contributed to the riot either. Rioting will hep nothing and will only make matters worse. Ig a group feels oppressed or mistreated by the police and/or are falsely stereotypes as dangerous criminals having them go on a violent rampage and threaten to continue the violent rampage only puts that group in a negative light as they commit wrongdoing to protest wrongdoing. The absurdity of black people protesting police brutality by going ons rampage that requires riot cops to put down the unrest should be obvious to everyone.
My OT Stan Marsh moment of today;
People discriminating against Muslims because of recent terror attacks is wrong and people should not be judged by the actions of a small minority. No argument there. But when it comes to the police? feth those guys. Even when they shoot someone brandishing a gun that was recovered at the scene. Because not judging people you have an axe to grind against is hard.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/09/22 01:53:51
Prestor Jon wrote: Rioting isn't going to solve the problem that contributed to the riot either.
Really? Because there was an awful lot of rioting back during the Civil Rights era, which was no where near as peaceful as your history book told you and it worked.
Sitting and waiting has gotten them nothing. Rising up and speaking out merely has them dismissed with inane prattle like "all lives matter."
They have been ignored and belittled at every attempt, and years of protest has achieved little more than occasional media coverage between "Hillary's Emails" and "Look what Trump said now" and "Look how cute Kim and Kanye's baby is."
It really should be abundantly obvious at this point that this;
Spoiler:
Isn't going to go away by telling them to stop breaking the law. I don't think they care what the law says, because they don't think the law does them any good (and they have a pretty good case for it). But please. Go on and preach to us about how rioting is bad. Maybe there's some who didn't know that before entering this thread.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/09/22 01:54:23
Prestor Jon wrote: Years of neglect didn't go on a violent rampage in Charlotte, people chose to do that and when you deflect the responsibility for that criminal behavior away from the individuals who committed the acts and put on social neglect instead it's excusing/justifying that criminal behavior.
Thing is, if you go around calling people ugly then you aren't making anyone punch you in the mouth. Each person still has a choice, and the one who does decide to punch you in the mouth has broken the law. But you'd be an incredible kind of idiot if you wandered around calling people ugly and then being surprised when someone did punch you in the mouth. Because while each person makes their own choice, obviously certain kinds of choices are going to be much more common under some circumstances.
Recognising that a long history of poor relations between police and the black community, including a lot of needless deaths, has produced a circumstance where a lot more black people are inclined to riot is, well, kind of obvious. It doesn't excuse the riots, it just recognises it is what it is, and if you don't want future riots, then maybe working on that relationship might be a good starting point (including maybe not shooting so many people).
“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”
Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something.
In a simple attempt to lighten the mood of this very heavy subject, it looks like there'll be a lot more citizens wearing 'Batum' jerseys in the near future.
TheCustomLime wrote: This is so ignorant of Black american history I don't even know where to begin. In short, just because blacks are nominally equal under the law doesn't mean they are treated equally. Mistreated groups have a tendency of getting really angry about the their oppression.
Equality under law is nice in theory but are there really countries where minorities ARE treated equally? None come to mind. Certainly not even in Finland. And blacks in america have had long and bloody history.
While the riots are not good it's not unexpected. Trust on both sides has shrank to stage any spark can ignite this kind of behavior.
feeder wrote: If you think this is specifically about this specific incident, you'd be wrong.
That's just using faulty reasoning to find some basis to excuse violent criminal behavior. The idea that anytime a black person gets shot by cops is now automatically a grave injustice that necessitates and justifies a violent criminal rampage is both patronizing and absurd. Looting and destroying stores isn't by any training the only way or even an effective way to enact governmental reforms.
Justifies? No. Efficient? No. But we are talking about EMOTIONS here. Humans are emotional. Very few can honestly say they don't let emotions decide their actions at all. Frankly I know no such person. And when emotions take control...Well rationality, logic and efficiency are forgotten.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/09/22 06:52:53
I really don't get why you guys in America get riots all over the place time and time again. On top of that the people that do riot are only there to loot and pillage most of the time. These people don't riot for the person shot, but riot for the sake of rioting and stolen loot most of the time.
Hell they are broadening their stereotypes even further to the point you mention riots that people immediately think of afro-americans pillaging and looting.
Poor ignorant guardsmen, it be but one of many of the great miracles of the Emperor! The Emperor is magic, like Harry Potter, but more magic! A most real and true SPACE WIZARD! And for the last time... I'm not a space plumber.
The Grumpy Eldar wrote: I really don't get why you guys in America get riots all over the place time and time again.
I don't know how other fields might identify it, but Historians call it the "Revolutionary Spirit." It's a concept that defines a culturally ingrained value among Americans that some have argued explains our habit of engaging in radical action against perceived domestic injustice. It's connected to why a groups like the Ku Klux Klan and Sovereign Citizens came into existence, the persistence of Confederate Pride in the South, and the long history of race based riots in many US cities.
On top of that the people that do riot are only there to loot and pillage most of the time. These people don't riot for the person shot, but riot for the sake of rioting and stolen loot most of the time.
Earlier this year there were riots in Salt Lake City resulting from the shooting of a 17 year old Somali refugee. Last year there were riots in Baltimore following the death of Freddie Gray. Ferguson in 2014 and 2015. The Oakland Riots in 2009. The Toledo Riot in 2005. Most of these were spawned by the shootings of young black men by law enforcement (Toledo occurred when some Neo-Nazis marched through a black neighborhood). Rioting isn't a spontaneous event of violence in this context, or an excuse to loot and pillage. It's part of the US' culture concerned race relations. Poor urban communities riot when they are misgoverned and ignored. It is indeed not just about the person shot. It's about the overarching state of race relations, which is an especially sensitive topic for black Americans. EDIT: If you remember the Hague Riot that occurred in 2015, it is similar, but imagine a history of such events spanning over 100 years.
I highly suggest you read a few books before assuming this is as simple as some people wanting to have fun at the expense of others. I suggest At the Dark End of the Street: Black Women, Rape, and Resistance--A New History of the Civil Rights Movement from Rosa Parks to the Rise of Black Power by Danielle L. McGuire for background information, and The New Jim Crow: Mass Incarceration in the Age of Colorblindness by Michelle Alexander and Cornel West for a very good description of the current state of things and why it's become such a problem.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/09/22 08:57:37
I do not assume it's that simple. I kinda blanked and forgot to write down some things.
I actually was talking about the view of them in media and other countries. Do they just not care?
I get the frustration for those people after so many times but I just don't get the hostility towards people who have nothing to do with this.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/09/22 09:38:19
Poor ignorant guardsmen, it be but one of many of the great miracles of the Emperor! The Emperor is magic, like Harry Potter, but more magic! A most real and true SPACE WIZARD! And for the last time... I'm not a space plumber.
The Grumpy Eldar wrote: I do not assume it's that simple. I kinda blanked and forgot to write down some things.
I actually was talking about the view of them in media and other countries. Do they just not care?
I get the frustration for those people after so many time but I just don't get the hostility towards people who have nothing to do with this.
They lose my respect when they damage their own communities.
The fact blacks get shot at a higher rate per head of population is, I'm sure, in no small amount caused by the higher crime rate among black communities.
The Grumpy Eldar wrote: I do not assume it's that simple. I kinda blanked and forgot to write down some things.
Apologies then.
I actually was talking about the view of them in media and other countries. Do they just not care?
I get the frustration for those people after so many time but I just don't get the hostility towards people who have nothing to do with this.
This is the result of 150+ years of trying to use band aids to fix one of the most perplexing and elusive injustices in America, and our own personal original sin (slavery). This riot is a small part of a much wider nation spanning social problem, and it's one Americans have at large ignored at most turns. Even when making progress in events like the Emancipation Proclamation and the Civil Rights Act of 1964, we have never full redressed the repercussions of what began over 200 years ago. We often do just enough to fix surface issues, and then promptly turned our attention elsewhere. We pretend that electing a black president means racism is dead, and that just because we aren't racist means we have no responsibility to fix in the present what was left unfixed in the past.
There is no hostility towards people who have nothing to do with it, because there is no one in this country who has nothing to do with it. The wealth of this nation began with billions of dollars in chattel*. We've all benefited from that. It's at the very core of where this country came from, and this just goes back to it. African American communities live in rampant poverty in no small part because American social policy put them there to begin with, and allowed them to continue to languish in that space even forcing them to exist in it for the benefit of other groups. The social conditions in these communities have bred crime and resentment, and we've simultaneously built very harsh laws that punish a lot of things in horrible disproportion for the actual deed to further that resentment and more crime. And for all this we choose to blame no one but these communities themselves because its a hell of a lot easier to say black people are lazy criminals who like to destroy their own community than it is to accept that over 200 years of the American past has given them little else.
*This number is based on James Huston's examination of slavery in Calculating the Value of the Union. Huston used a conservative estimate of the property value of the slaves held by white Americans that held that by 1850, the value of slaves was in excess of $3,000,000,000, a sum greater than the value of all American banks, shipping, railroads, textiles, and livestock put together.
EDIT EDIT: And this post came out a hell of a lot more depressing than we really wanted it to be...
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2016/09/22 10:24:53
feeder wrote: If you think this is specifically about this specific incident, you'd be wrong.
Alleged brother calls all white people devils.
Watch the video above. (Warning: Graphic language).
In it, he says, before angrily walking away from reporters: “I just know that all white people are f-cking devils.” Then he adds, “All white cops are f-cking devils, and white people.”
whembly wrote: Oh man... the person shot at the unrest tonight is deceased:
NBC Charlotte @wcnc 5m5 minutes ago
#BREAKING: CMPD Chief Kerr Putney confirms in interview w/Fox News that man who was shot in uptown has died
NOT shot by cops though, but by another person. Mayhaps rioter messed with the wrong person.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/09/22 11:12:06
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
LordofHats wrote: And for all this we choose to blame no one but these communities themselves because its a hell of a lot easier to say black people are lazy criminals who like to destroy their own community than it is to accept that over 200 years of the American past has given them little else.
Maybe you're referring to posts like mine when you say that, so I'll clarify my thoughts. I think black people are more likely to live in poor and gakky communities, thus are more likely to commit crimes and thus are more likely to be on the receiving end of police violence.
I don't blame the black people for that, I don't think black people are lazy criminals, certainly none of the ones I met while living in the US gave that impression.
I just think the way the problem is approached is so often arse backwards. Take race out of the equation and it's a problem in a lot of places that people who grew up in crap environments are less likely to make something good out of their lives and are more likely to end up with crippling drug problems, violence, thieving and having more run ins with the cops.
So it seems to me that it's less a race problem and more a socio-economic problem, and while a racist history has made it so that there's more blacks in poor socio-economic positions in this day and age it's not at it's core a racism issue and trying to approach it as a racism issue is less productive than trying to approach it as a socio-economic issue.
I don't think you can blame cops for shooting more black civilians when more black civilians are killing more civilians and it seems to me the solution to that problem is take the emphasis away from blacks being victimised by the cops and put it back on how can we improve these communities to reduce crime wholesale. (though you can certainly raise the issue of cops shooting anyone in the first place, that's another whole discussion that gets in to the gun debate)
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/09/22 11:22:20
LordofHats wrote: Choices are not made in a vacuum, and expecting people to be blind and dumb about the history of law enforcement violence, particularly towards African American communities, that has led to this event is being rather obtuse. I don't see anyone saying rioting is a good thing, or not a crime. Harping on how rioting is bad and criminal, isn't really going to resolve the problem that led to the rioting.
This a thousand times.
As was said earlier, the chickens are well and truly coming home to roost. Rightly or wrongly, African Americans think they're not getting a fair roll of the dice when it comes to criminal justice, and I'm only surprised that this didn't happen sooner.
As we know, North Carolina's relationship with African Americans is a wretched history of slavery, oppression, murder and terror during reconstruction, Klan violence, and further terror and murder during the civil rights era.
That legacy, that history, does not just disappear overnight.
Robert F Williams was a controversial figure, but I would recommended reading his book 'Negroes with guns.' It's an account of the civil rights movement in North Carolina, the violence inflicted on African Americans, their attempts to arm themselves for self-defence (the local police chief, who had links to the Klan, was 'surprisingly' reluctant to let them have guns, and is a real eye opener, especially the bit when they're trying and failing to get help from the NRA, that fearless protector of the 2nd amendment...
Moving on, a lot of people seem to be claiming that protest and action never changed anything.
Because sitting around with your thumbs up your rear has clearly done a lot of good for African Americans. We really need a sarcasm moticon on dakka.
1776 is calling - it wants its revolution back
"Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous
deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky. But is it true?" - Tom Kirby, CEO, Games Workshop Ltd
Because sitting around with your thumbs up your rear has clearly done a lot of good for African Americans. We really need a sarcasm moticon on dakka.
The problem of course is, most of us could care less if there is a riot. It doesn't harm us, makes the rioters look bad, and is great TV.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/09/22 12:17:05
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
Prestor Jon wrote: Rioting isn't going to solve the problem that contributed to the riot either.
Really? Because there was an awful lot of rioting back during the Civil Rights era, which was no where near as peaceful as your history book told you and it worked.
Sitting and waiting has gotten them nothing. Rising up and speaking out merely has them dismissed with inane prattle like "all lives matter."
They have been ignored and belittled at every attempt, and years of protest has achieved little more than occasional media coverage between "Hillary's Emails" and "Look what Trump said now" and "Look how cute Kim and Kanye's baby is."
It really should be abundantly obvious at this point that this;
Spoiler:
Isn't going to go away by telling them to stop breaking the law. I don't think they care what the law says, because they don't think the law does them any good (and they have a pretty good case for it). But please. Go on and preach to us about how rioting is bad. Maybe there's some who didn't know that before entering this thread.
I never claimed that anyone in this thread didn't know that rioting was criminal behavior and bad for society and deflecting to that straw man isn't helpful for civil discourse. Throwing childish self destructive temper tantrums isn't the way to convince people to take you seriously or to enact governmental reforms. The notion that looting and burning down walmarts is an effective way to reduce racially discriminatory police brutality would be laughable instead of incredulously saddening since it's so ardently defended as such in this thread.
If you think the Civil Rights Act was some sort of Danegeld that was extorted from the federal government via violent urban rampages you're wrong. MLK didn't deliberately avoid having violence in the movement and Malcolm X didn't renounce violence in his later years because it was really super effective.
Every police department in the US, be it the municipal, county or state level is subject to civil authority oversight. Police chiefs, mayors, city councils they could all enact meaningful policy reforms. Every major city in the US has a large enough black population that if that demographic group worked together to form the core of a voting bloc that prioritizing police reforms candidates and incumbent politicians would have to listen to them. Of course working to build a unified political movement, tabulating a list of grievances formulating policy reforms that address them and prioritizing them in preparation of negotiations with politicians and police unions and maintaining focus and enthusiasm in the movement is hard work and won't get a lot of media attention but it's a lot more effective than arson. It's also a lot less fun than getting together with friends and strangers to go wilding and loot and burn buildings on tv.
The Grumpy Eldar wrote: I do not assume it's that simple. I kinda blanked and forgot to write down some things.
Apologies then.
I actually was talking about the view of them in media and other countries. Do they just not care?
I get the frustration for those people after so many time but I just don't get the hostility towards people who have nothing to do with this.
This is the result of 150+ years of trying to use band aids to fix one of the most perplexing and elusive injustices in America, and our own personal original sin (slavery). This riot is a small part of a much wider nation spanning social problem, and it's one Americans have at large ignored at most turns. Even when making progress in events like the Emancipation Proclamation and the Civil Rights Act of 1964, we have never full redressed the repercussions of what began over 200 years ago. We often do just enough to fix surface issues, and then promptly turned our attention elsewhere. We pretend that electing a black president means racism is dead, and that just because we aren't racist means we have no responsibility to fix in the present what was left unfixed in the past.
There is no hostility towards people who have nothing to do with it, because there is no one in this country who has nothing to do with it. The wealth of this nation began with billions of dollars in chattel*. We've all benefited from that. It's at the very core of where this country came from, and this just goes back to it. African American communities live in rampant poverty in no small part because American social policy put them there to begin with, and allowed them to continue to languish in that space even forcing them to exist in it for the benefit of other groups. The social conditions in these communities have bred crime and resentment, and we've simultaneously built very harsh laws that punish a lot of things in horrible disproportion for the actual deed to further that resentment and more crime. And for all this we choose to blame no one but these communities themselves because its a hell of a lot easier to say black people are lazy criminals who like to destroy their own community than it is to accept that over 200 years of the American past has given them little else.
*This number is based on James Huston's examination of slavery in Calculating the Value of the Union. Huston used a conservative estimate of the property value of the slaves held by white Americans that held that by 1850, the value of slaves was in excess of $3,000,000,000, a sum greater than the value of all American banks, shipping, railroads, textiles, and livestock put together.
EDIT EDIT: And this post came out a hell of a lot more depressing than we really wanted it to be...
It's only depressing if you buy into the inane concept that we should feel some sort of collective guilt over actions done by other people who are now long dead.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/09/22 12:12:32
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