40kenthusiast wrote:

Spoiler:

Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:

40kenthusiast wrote:
Dude, it's been gone over a few times in this post. How are you not getting this?

Codexes are balanced, not units. Stuff costs different amounts in different dexes, depending on how it is supported. Stealers in an Ork dex (with Trukks) would be way better than they are in the Nid dex.

The idea that CSM's entry for "Chaos Space Marines", is somehow comparable to SM's entry for "Tactical Marines" is silly. Why not compare with vets, with immortals or with fire warriors while you are at it?

SM's do some stuff better than CSM, and they also do those things better than, let's say, Dark Eldar.

I get that it feels unfair, but let that feeling go. You will make yourself unhappy expecting stuff to be the same in every book. It hasn't ever been, and it won't ever be.

There ARE comparisons to be made between the competitive lists which arise from every dex, and the more veteran players around here kick them around from time to time.

But, and you can trust me on this, no part of the CSM's codex deficiency comes from their troops costing more than SM units. Nobody who can read a dex plays tac marines. Nobody who is trying to win plays CSM units. They are just bad choices. It doesn't matter that one is slightly better than the other, they are both rubbish.

Okay I'm tired so I will make this quick. How do they balance Sorcs/Libs then, since they range from lvl 1 to lvl 4 and have access to multiple disciplines which have some very good effects and some mediocre effects, while others are just bad. All of which is determined by RNG on top of which the success of those are RNG so the RNG on top of RNG makes things almost unpredictable. Here is a quick example, Lvl 1 Sorc, rolls on Biomancy get Endurance, another level 1 Sorc rolls on Telepathy and gets Mental Fortitude. You pay THE EXACT SAME and yet they have two VERY different levels of power.

Why compare CSM with SM same stat lines with comparable special rules. It's the simplest compassion to make.

What do CSM do "better" then SM.

It doesn't "feel unfair" it is unfair when another army has access to more options with a wider variety for cheaper. That's objective. Unless you have some weird definition of fair which means one group gets everything they could possibly want, and the rest get fethed. They only way the two codices are the same is if every SM player is either totally inept or suffers from severe mental disabilities.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kaiyanwang wrote:

40kenthusiast wrote:


Codexes are balanced, not units.

Wew lad

Is that "wew" because what he said was stupid?

Dude, this isn't complicated. Ready?

Ok. Each dex is a set of choices. You use those to make armies. Each dex doesn't get the same choices. Sorcerers and Librarians are in different dexes. Tac marines and Chaos Space marines are in different dexes.

Comparing them to one another is pointless, and doesn't get you anywhere, at all.

When you ask how a librarian who rolls biomancy and gets one power is "balanced" against one who rolls another discipline and gets another power I don't even know what you mean? Like, what is "balanced", in your mind? Do you think that if I choose one thing, and you something different, we are going to have a fifty fifty chance to win? Like, every discipline that you could choose, every roll that is on every chart...should be equally good? Do you even think that is possible?

The meaningful comparison between codexes isn't making lists that are as close to the same as possible and then whining about which costs more points. Yes, a SM tac marine spam list has points left over when it faces off with a CSM equivalent list, but that doesn't matter, because those lists are jokes. The comparison that matters between CSM and SM codexes is what they can each contribute to a list that might win a game once in a while. When people say that the CSM codex is "bad", what they mean is that it isn't useful. If you are building a list to win games of 40k you don't need to own that codex, because it doesn't contribute to victorious armies.

By contrast when you say it is bad you go off and compare units that nobody uses to each other, and fixate on points costs. That's not relevant.

I'm not like "Huh, getting ready to play some 40k, what version of 'useless units that make saves until they die' should I deploy? Hmm....which codex are they cheapest in... Gosh, the CSM sure have a raw deal."

Here are the things that exist in the current battlefield.
Stuff that survives on cover saves, whose job is to exist and be in the way/score. This needs to be cheap and hard to shift unless you get into assault.
Things that are extremely durable and shoot unbelievably hard This is constantly changing, but basically looks like Oblits/Dev Cents/Tau shooty suits etc. This gets meaner as the game goes on.
Death stars (Lots of chars in a unit that give sthem special rules and moves 12" per turn)
Super Heavy Walkers & Gargantuan Creatures (antidote to Death Stars because of Stomp rules, generally immune to shooting for a while)

Here's a tau list I saw at ATC
Ghostkeels + stealth suits formation
2 Riptides
bunch of Broadsides
Some kroot scorers

Everything that you can shoot at in this list is either in reserve, hiding behind a 2+ cover save and T5+.

Here's an AoI list I saw at ATC
Dark Angel command squad
Lots of Space Wolfs on Wolfs joined to it
Some scoring bike units

Here's a chaos list I took to ATC

Renegade Knight
So many Vrax chumps
Ordnance tyrnat
All the artillery
Daemon psychic factory + GUO

Here's a Knight list I saw at ATC
5 Knights

Here's an Admech list I saw at ATC
That formation that everyone plays

Here's an Eldar list I saw this weekend
3 Wraith things
jetbikes to scoot around and score

If you build an AoI bundle, then from SM you might get:
Dev Cents (durable + shooty)
Scouts (cheap + cover saves + score)
maybe some of those shooty planes to do last minute scoring stuff

If you build a chaos bundle then from CSM you might get:
Some special characters?

THAT'S the axis on which SM is a viable book while CSM is nothing. Not the comparison of units that don't matter, but the fact that SM do a few things right, while CSM are built for a game that doesn't exist, a game where infantry squads fight infantry squads. But nowadays if you want wounds on the table for chaos you go with daemons, they are cheaper and have better saves. If you want killing done by Chaos once again Daemons have you covered, and if you want Super Heavies then Renegade Knights are generally better and cheaper than CSM choices.

You could take a tac spam against any of those lists, and literally take double the other player's points, and lose 7/10. Points don't matter if there is nothing worth spending them on.

If you don't read anything else, read the following:

CSM would be a garbage codex if the CSM unit entry was literally half its current point costs. They still wouldn't be worth taking.

40kenthusiast wrote:
They TRY to balance at the codex level (to the tiny extent that they try to balance anything). Obviously, it doesn't work, but that's what they are going for.