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So your plan for Dark Eldar to kill Riptides is....?

If he overcharges his invul to a 3++, Dark Lances bounce off of him, only Reavers would ever catch him. This would be a silly change. Even if you allowed Haywire to wound him on 2's we'd never be able to put that much firepower into him to force him to fail saves, and the only Melta in our army is found is Reavers Heat Lances which every Tau would either obliterate or force to jink. And even they only come 1 per 3 models.

Unless you drastically change how Dark Eldar play, this change would make Riptides essentially invulnerable to conventional DE shooting (spamming Dark Lances has never been effective, and Blasterborn rely on a Venom to get within 18'').

Disintegrators will still do a lot of work, and your scourges are now relentless due to being jet packs now. Also, your power weapons will now ignore armor and if he is powering up his shield he isn't getting more shots with his weapons that wipe out your army.

You'll notice that the upgrade to the big cannon and feel no pain are now more expensive as well. So the riptides will start edging out their markerlight support at a higher rate if you decide to increase survivability.

The reason for the difference in how ordinance works between monstrous creatures and vehicles is I wanted to limit hullpoint stripping and wanted ordinance to act like a weaker version of strD to help offset the weakness of the vehicle damage table for vehicles. Now if you have ordinance your chance of removing hullpoints is greater due to having a better chance to pen, and if it actually hurts a monster is causes more catastrophic damage to said monster due to surface area being affected by the blast/shrapnel.

The reason I didn't just make it do the same against characters is I already made it easier to kill them with instant death.

A character has multiple wounds to show how heroic they are. A monster has more wounds because of how much bigger they are. The hero miraculously surviving an explosion that would kill a dozen weaker dudes is cinematic. A monster being affected by a giant explosion in the exact same way it would a single high powered bullet just didn't feel right to me.

Also, making the imperial guard's tanks a viable weapon against the monsters of the game helped balance out the faction SIGNIFICANTLY.

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:

You'll notice that the upgrade to the big cannon and feel no pain are now more expensive as well. So the riptides will start edging out their markerlight support at a higher rate if you decide to increase survivability..

No, you made it cheaper. It's 35pts for a monstrous creature in the current codex and you put it at 20.

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
You'll notice that the upgrade to the big cannon and feel no pain are now more expensive as well. So the riptides will start edging out their markerlight support at a higher rate if you decide to increase survivability.

Huh? You made Stim Injectors 20 points for MC, when the default is 35. You decreased the cost for FnP for Tau MC, to the point you can take the Ion Accelerator and FnP for less than it cost to get FnP by default.

The reason for the difference in how ordinance works between monstrous creatures and vehicles is I wanted to limit hullpoint stripping and wanted ordinance to act like a weaker version of strD to help offset the weakness of the vehicle damage table for vehicles. Now if you have ordinance your chance of removing hullpoints is greater due to having a better chance to pen, and if it actually hurts a monster is causes more catastrophic damage to said monster due to surface area being affected by the blast/shrapnel.

Fair enough.

The reason I didn't just make it do the same against characters is I already made it easier to kill them with instant death.

A character has multiple wounds to show how heroic they are. A monster has more wounds because of how much bigger they are. The hero miraculously surviving an explosion that would kill a dozen weaker dudes is cinematic. A monster being affected by a giant explosion in the exact same way it would a single high powered bullet just didn't feel right to me.

Like Ogryns? Or Broadsides? Or Crisis Suits? or Centurions? They have multiple wounds to show how heroic the are, rather than as a function of their size and natural qualities?

Perhaps you could specifically call out models with the Character subtype to avoid the extra damage, since that would more closely represent the distinction you're making. Or not, s'all good.

Also, making the imperial guard's tanks a viable weapon against the monsters of the game helped balance out the faction SIGNIFICANTLY.

A worthy goal.


I take it from your lack of response that you intended the Stormsurge to continue choosing from the Support Systems (the infantry list) rather than switching to the Vehicle Battle Systems (the vehicle list) despite turning the Stormsurge into a vehicle? I'm not complaining, as its a stronger set of choices by far, just seeking clarity.

When I was doing this update, I was under the impression that monstrous creatures in the Tau book used the same price for "feel no pain" and that was the reason behind the complaints about that particular special rule being so cheap to add. Is there a page where it says otherwise, I didn't see it when I was going over all the units/ rules in the codex...

Also, yes they still use the same list for gear. I see the lists as different not based on their vehicle/monstrous creature category and more based on skimmer/ humanoid category. It wouldn't make sense for one classification of giant suit to have a shield generator but the other, larger, one to have a thing that helps with cover saves it would almost never get.

Disruptor pods work with the skimmers because they will dodge bullets fired at them. I don't see a storm surge (especially when locked down) dodging bullets neo style. (Though it would be funny due to throwing the little guys out of the top...)

Now, in regards to the larger infantry guys with better toughness/ wounds, that is a good point. My main fear was making Tyranid warriors weaker because of it, but they would be killed instantly by most ordinance weapons anyway. As it stands, the units with inherent toughness 5 have a leg up on those who have it due to gear since they are still killed by str8. I will talk to my group and see how they feel about that change for ordinance.

Thanks for the input!

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
When I was doing this update, I was under the impression that monstrous creatures in the Tau book used the same price for "feel no pain" and that was the reason behind the complaints about that particular special rule being so cheap to add. Is there a page where it says otherwise, I didn't see it when I was going over all the units/ rules in the codex...

On page 75 of my copy, Titled "Tau Empire Wargear List", look at the Support Systems sublist. Before it lists the gear and their point costs, it has text stating that Riptides, Ghostkeels, and Stormsurges use the second point cost where two are listed for the same piece of gear.

The only two support systems where that makes a difference are the Stim Injectors and the Shield Generator. Easy thing to miss.

Also, yes they still use the same list for gear. I see the lists as different not based on their vehicle/monstrous creature category and more based on skimmer/ humanoid category. It wouldn't make sense for one classification of giant suit to have a shield generator but the other, larger, one to have a thing that helps with cover saves it would almost never get.

Disruptor pods work with the skimmers because they will dodge bullets fired at them. I don't see a storm surge (especially when locked down) dodging bullets neo style. (Though it would be funny due to throwing the little guys out of the top...)

I always thought of Dpods as a poor-man's version of Eldar Holofields, but with more of a heat-wave disruption effect. You end up firing at where the image of the target bends, rather than the actual source of the image.

As I said, I think the Infantry Support Systems are the better set of systems, just wanted to clarify.

Now, in regards to the larger infantry guys with better toughness/ wounds, that is a good point. My main fear was making Tyranid warriors weaker because of it, but they would be killed instantly by most ordinance weapons anyway. As it stands, the units with inherent toughness 5 have a leg up on those who have it due to gear since they are still killed by str8. I will talk to my group and see how they feel about that change for ordinance.

Thanks for the input!

My pleasure.

Edited Tau changes in first post!

A 5+ invul followed by a 5+ FnP is statistically similar to a 4+ invul. So let's assume we have to cause 10 wounds to this Riptide. Dissies wound on 5's due to Str 5, so 30 hits, and hit on 3's so 45 shots. 9 Shots per ravager suggests we need 5 Ravagers firing into one riptide to statistically kill it. Considering ravagers aren't good in the first place, usually only 1 making its way into my lists, this is quite an ask.

Power swords? We have exactly one unit which comes with power swords (The Incubi) and if they ever find themselves in combat with a riptide then the Tau player has done something horribly wrong. The Archon has an instant death huskblade, but Str 3 Ap 3 means he won't be touching the riptide.

Scourges could act as Melta delivery I guess, 30'' threat range. But we also have to consider 4 shots, 3 hits, 1.5 wounds, 0.5 saved by invul, 0.33 saved by feel no pain. 4 Scourges do 0.66 x D3 wounds. Then die horribly in the following round.

Riptides don't deserve this buff against Dark Eldar, as I think Dark Eldar are the biggest advocates of ranged poison. We already find Tau hard to beat as it is.

I have to say, I'm surprised you left Tau largely untouched rule wise. You definitely upgraded the Stormsurge, that's for sure. looking at it with an armour value makes it seem so much more weighty.

Not hitting markerlights in your rules is a big thing that stuck out to me though. My Friend adamantly refuses to play tau simply because of how broken it is to completely strip a piece of it's saves using a few of these things (I tend to run Farsight battlesuit drop armies over Traditional Tau stand-and-fire gunlines). one thing I would recommend is that rather than tau stripping away an entire cover save with 2 markerlights spent. possibly making it 1 markerlight to a -1 cover save effect.

I did strip markerlights though. In particular I made it so they don't ignore stealth and shrouded bonuses (namely, they aren't "ignores cover" they just normally don't generate a save) so units that are stealth/shrouded are hit on 6's, even if there is a buffmander in the unit. As for the storm surge, now that it is a vehicle you can take off more hullpoints per turn and have the ability to blow off weapons/slow it down.

You will on average do 2 or 3 wounds to a riptide with your scourges. (Remember the bonus wound chance from ap1) Then they will jetpack away just like Tau can now.

I do however see your point, with all of their primary ranged weapons being poison they are highly limited in their ability to threaten the Tau mecha. I am going to playtest haywire wounding on a 2+ but it shouldn't be an issue to put that idea up for my Tau player

Archon w/Huskblade & Shadowfield v Riptide:

Edit: Let's say the Riptide has a HBC and TL SMS (kinda the best-case scenario for the Riptide's Overwatch without adding gear that is pretty much never included, like the Counterfire Defense System). That's either 8 or 12 6/4 shots, getting either 1.33 or 2 hits, with 1.11 or 1.67 after rolling to-wound. The Archon's Shadowfield means he dies from ID 18.5% or 27.8% of the time. The TL SMS gets 1.22 hits, or 1 wound, which negates the Archon's Shadowfield 17% of the time. If the Riptide is getting 12 shots, it has to rely on the 5++ save rather than the 3++.

Archon charges, getting 6 attacks (4 base +1 for two weapons +1 charge) at initiative 7. WS 7 against WS 2 means the Archon hits on a 2+, for 5 hits. (edited: Per Lythandire's house rules, the Archon hits on a 2+ due to being more than three times the Riptide's WS, rather than my initial 3+ presumption)

S3 vs T6 means the Archon is wounding on 6's, and thus gets an average of .83 wounds against the Riptide. As Lythrandire's Riptide is reduced to a 3+ armor save, and the Huskblade has AP3, the Riptide isn't allows an armor save. The 5++ save reduces that to .55 unsaved wounds. Because the Huskblade is Instant Death, the Riptide would not get its FnP.

Thus, more often than not, the Riptide dies before it has a chance to even attack.

Every additional round's damage output after the initial charge round would have a reduced amount of unsaved wounds equal to 5/6 of the charging round (having only 5 out of the 6 attacks of the charge round), or .46 unsaved wounds per round. It would thus take 2 rounds on average to inflict at least one unsaved ID wound.

A 3++ save halves the Archon's chances, so it takes just 4 rounds to inflict an average of 1 unsaved ID wound when the Riptide succeeds on Nova-ing every round.

If the Riptide has a chance to attack back, it gets 2 attacks per round. WS 2 vs WS 7 means the Riptide is hitting on 5's, for .66 hits. S6 v T3 means the Riptide gets an average of .56 wounds against the Archon. Presuming the Archon has a Shadowfield, the .56 wounds are reduced to .09 wounds per round, requiring 11 rounds to average an unsaved wound against the Archon.

TL;DR: A Shadowfield Archon with a Huskblade would be far more likely to kill a Riptide than a Riptide would be to kill the Archon in close combat, if Lythrandire's changes were implemented.

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:I did strip markerlights though. In particular I made it so they don't ignore stealth and shrouded bonuses (namely, they aren't "ignores cover" they just normally don't generate a save) so units that are stealth/shrouded are hit on 6's, even if there is a buffmander in the unit. As for the storm surge, now that it is a vehicle you can take off more hullpoints per turn and have the ability to blow off weapons/slow it down.

You made Markerlights hit on 6s for the most common markerlight sources of ML Drones and Pathfinders, so long as the target has Stealth and Shrouded, but Tetras still hit ~1/3 of the time, Skyrays hit 1/3 of the time, Drone Spotters still hit 1/2 of the time, and a Marker Drone squad accompanied by a MSSS Commander with Drone Controller have MLs that Ignore Cover, and thus hit 5/6 of the time, or even 35/36 of the time if the Commander also has the C&CN.

That isn't really stripping Markerlights, however, as that nerf only applies to targets with Stealth and/or Shrouded. Models in cover or otherwise obtaining cover saves (like, say, through Jink) would still be hit on 4+ for most Markerlight sources and would still have their entire Cover Save negated by 2 Markerlight tokens.

A fairly popular nerf to Markerlights is to require a Markerlight token for each -1 to cover saves.

As for the stormsurge, you did make it AV 13/13/12, which is roughly the equivalent of having T9/9/8 (except better, since S6 can't damage the front/side facings and S5 can't damage the back armor, unlike its closest toughness analogue). It lost its Armor save, but given it still has access to Shield Generators (and as I understand it, a vast majority of players already used Shield Generators on their Stormsurges), it doesn't lose much in that regard.

It is certainly more vulnerable to being stripped of its firepower, due to being subject to the vehicle damage table, and you can slow it down slightly, but the chance you'll remove its best weaponry is low (random chance) and it is arguably a tougher nut to crack than it was before, even while losing FnP, while being slowed is not necessarily a burden due to still being somewhat fast, having decent range to its weaponry, and having the ability to Anchor (though Anchoring a Stormsurge against DEldar seems somewhat dangerous, given the FAQ ruling).

Dropping markerlight accuracy by 50% for most of the book is pretty significant. As for the storm surge, hullpoints are much easier to take off than wounds, that's why it's armor values are so high.

What I did was add armor value until the points compensated for the difference in cost between wounds and hullpoints. Once I was done, I asked my Tau player which he wanted for the stats. Between the gargantuan creature or superheavy walker.

He went with the walker because the pilots being exposed showed they were driving a vehicle in analog as opposed to the battlesuit setup.

Also, with the storm surge being open topped anti tank weapons have a much better chance at removing extra hullpoints. (Melta guns will cause 1+d3 hullpoints on a 4+)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
(dropped up to 50% for units who specialise in hiding)

Dark eldar changes added to first post!

Suggestions to add to the Dark Eldar:
Add 'Blind' to all Darklight weapons (Blaster/dark lance etc.)
Change Void Mine to a D-weapon (Most D weapon description I've seen and as it's one use only it's hardly going to be OP)
Add Vector Dancer to Razorwing Jetfighter

I'd also add some serious maneuverability rules for their detachment (Probably instead of the +1 cover thing)
Something along the lines of:
All Dark Eldar Skimmer vehicles in this detachment count as moving 6" less for all purposes (Embarking/Disembarking/Passengers shooting etc.)

If I add vector dancer, I would add the points for it to do so.

Adding blind wouldn't do much for the darklight weapons. Big things with low initiative should be getting eliminated by poison rounds, and all vehicles are immune. I had thought about doing it for both dark and bright Lance's but I don't think it will do much.

Making the void mine strength D would actually weaken it with my houserules. Right now it wounds anything toughness 5 or less automatically and anything that has toughness 5 due to a wargear choice are killed instantly by strength 8+. So, drop a line on thunderwolves or bikes and they go straight to making saves or death. The D has a 1/6 chance to not wound, with the same chance to ignore saves. Either one will eliminate most of the unit, but the mine would get more expensive with strength D, and the big bird is already pretty pricey.

I've never seen people complain about the speed of dark eldar, but I've seen a lot of complaints about survivability. With the current MFD and rules alterations the army will either be a little more durable to start the game, or crazy durable at the end. A nightshield raider full of kabalite warriors is only hit on a 5 or 6 by most units and would have a 2+ jink during night fighting rounds and the kabalites would start with feel no pain.

With the shields on venoms granting the invul save against "no escape", and wytches having their dodge save the entire assault phase (meaning overwatch) they also see a significant boost to durability. (I especially have enjoyed the bonus for multi assault making the wytches look like blenders against clustered units, especially when combined with the new combat drugs)

Also, throwing a succubus into a chariot venom is HUGE in regards to threat and mobility. Soak overwatch with the av10 so most ranged weapons require two 6s to do anything and they gain hammer of wrath.

All in all, give the rules a sho, you should have a blast with the new options!

Edit:referenced wrong rule, derp!

You'd be surprised how painfully lacking in movement they can be.
Sure they can cross the entire battlefield in one turn but have to flat out/turbo boost to do it. (thus not being able to do anything else useful, if they want to shoot/disembark they are no faster than anyone else)
Craftworld eldar can literally run rings around them with battle focus and can keep up flat out without issue
In fact, with some of the White Scar formations Space marines can also outdo Dark Eldar with useable speed.

In regard to Vector dancer I feel that (and the flickerfield option) is the only thing missing from the Razorwing jetfighter which is otherwise a decent investment as is (wierdly more of a bomber than a fighter but that's a different issue)
Blind almost never does anything, I just feel it should be there because of the weapon's description
And if a Str9 weapon is more powerful than a D-weapon then that just needs altering
(I will say that the rulebook D-weapons are kinda meh with the exception of the 6, which is a bit much)

I think I like every other Dark Eldar suggestion in the opening post. ^_^; There are some really cool ideas in there, but I feel a lot of the proposed changes to the true kin kind of miss the mark.

* Making marines vulnerable to soulfright weapons is cool.
* Giving hellions a bajillion attacks makes them a bit better at assault, but I'm not sure it's warranted. With these changes, they machine gun attacks on the charge better than wyches. It just feels slightly...arbitrary I guess? I'd kind of like to see them count as troops in an army with the Baron again making them a cheap alternative to other troops who require transports to be effective. If drugs are addressed on top of that, they pack a pretty solid punch for their points. If you give them back the ability to yoink ICs out of units (like in the 5th edition book), you turn them into death star dismantlers.

* Hypex: This does make the drug a bit nicer, but I really don't have trouble getting my wych cult units where they're going; I have trouble getting them to murder or tarpit things once they get there. High mobility feels nice when you're moving models around. I'm just not sure it really puts cult units in a singificantly better place than they are now.
* Painbringer: This is arguably already the best drug as it makes reavers much tougher and helps wyches tarpit a bit more effectively. Adding shred to it not only buffs an already pretty good drug but also makes it step on the toes of the other damage-boosting drugs.
* Splintermind: I like this one. The hatred aspect is useful, though it's also significantly more useful than serpentin, and the fearless angle helps with tarpitting.
So hypex is fun but maybe not all that useful (and benefits reavers less than the other drugs), painbringer got buffed despite already bieng good, and splintermind was made useful but is also redundant with the other offensivedrugs (and is simply better than serpentin entirely).

*Venom chariots are a neat idea. I think you need to add a line about the chariot crew somewhere though.
*Hooray for the option to take bikes again! Why not let haemonculi in on the action though? Also, I'm not entirely sure whether or not it's unfluffy to let a succubus add on more armor. What with "daring the enemy to cut them" being part of the spectacle of the arena. No big deal though. I like these.

*Scourges as jetpackers is good stuff and makes much more sense for a lot of reasons. Heavy weapons become viable options. Their survival rate goes up. They feel more agile. Good stuff.

*Dark lances as a free upgrade works for me. I imagine someone spent a little time mulling over whether or not th 5 point upgrade cost was really necessary.

*Ravagers as transports: Hmmmm. Yeah, okay. It doesn't really address their main problems (they don't really do the gunboat thing as well as their cheaper or superior or more durable counterparts in other books), but you could theoretically take one in place of a venom. So you could spend a few extra points to get some lance or disi shots instead of yet more splinter shots. I can dig it. Maybe make them a DT option? Maybe. They're probably fine as heavies.

*Night Shields: Good stuff. Alternatively, just word them as "the model gains +1 to all cover saves (6+ when out in the open)." With the current wording, the conqueror of cities warlord trait makes your raider with night shields have a 4+ when in ruins without jinking or a 2+ save if it actually jinks or is actually obscured by the ruins. Which seems like it might be just slightly too good.

* Incubi ignoring the penalty for charging is mechanically sound but also slightly arbitrary. Every assault unit wants to ignore terrain penalties. What makes incubi special enough to swing at initiative? Perhaps give them plasma grenades to justify it? Or better yet, bring back the bloodstone as a piece of wargear (strength 3 ap 3 flamer) and add a rule that lets units equipped with bloodstones count as having assault grenades. Add a little utility to the incubi, brings back a nostalgic option, gives them some overwatch, and fixes their grenade problem.

* Blood Dancer: I like the rending part. The fleshbane part feels a bit much. There are very few enemies an archon or succubus won't beat in terms of WS and Initiative. Watching a succubus go toe to toe with a wraith knight makes for an amusing mental image, but probably isn't good balance.

Vect: He'll need rules regarding weapon AP and hull points for the dais.
Malys: Probably deserves Labrynthine Cunning plus an extra warlord trait at least as much as Vect if not more so. The dark eldar warlord trait table is mostly just "I'm frightful/hateful/slightly stabbier." None of which really plays to my lady Malys's niche. My suggestion? Give her Labrynthine Cunning for free, and let her roll an additional trait on the strategic or tacitcal table (player's choice). The options there fit her gimmick a bit better than things like blood dancer or Soulthirst. Also, she'll need rules for the lady's blade and maybe a redesign on her crystaline heart (though I think it mostly works as is).

* Sliscus: Cool

* The Baron : Nah. Let him make hellions troops again. See my first couple of bullets above. It opens up a new theme of army and gives a niche to hellions that they don't really have right now. I think he needs rules for his weapons too, right? Maybe make his hell glaive a power lance? I see him as a flavorful, versatile, relatively cheap HQ.

Points adjustments: My codex says those venom and raider prices are not adjustments. I'm not sure about the razowring. I've always viewed the razorwing's problem as being the fact that it's an anti-infantry unit in a codex full of anti-infantry units. A price reduction doesn't really fix that, but it does save you some points you could turn into missiles or upgrades for other units in the army. The voidraven's durability and mediocre attack power issues aren't really addressed by a price reduction either, but making it cheaper, once again, potentially lets you put points elsewhere. I'd probably rather see the voidraven's AV go back up to 11 again and maybe make void lances AP1 (so it's more likely to cripple or explode a target when it hits). This would make it the "bolter-proof" flyer and make it more viable in an anti-tank role. But a price reduction isn't a bad option either.

Five and ten point adjustments to the talos and cronos really don't seem worth taking the time to remember, really. :\ Both are perfectly good at what they do as they are, and making them barely cheaper isn't going to suddenly fix a perceived problem with them. Unless that problem is literally just, "These things are five and ten points too expensive." I'm curious as to why you felt the need to reduce their prices at all. Dark artisans and corpse thief claws are actually some of our more competitive options right now.

Shadow Harvest: Neat.

Dark Olympiad: I like the drug rule. The run and charge doesn't seem particularly helpful to me. As I've mentioned previously, I don't have trouble getting wyches into combat. I have trouble doing anything with them once they get there.

Kabalite War Party: I like the command benefits here, but I'm also confused by them. What is the fluff here? They're good at killing MCs or vehicles, but only every other turn, but they basically get twice the benefit if your opponent happens to have both? I get that the idea is to make your shooty elements better at cracking hard targets. I just don't understand the purpose or fluff of the limitations.

Carnival of Pain: I'm not sure I like being forced to take grotesques even though the grotesqueri is noramlly my go to coven formation. Not bad overall. You'll never take this detachment for its own sake (the covens book does it better), but the Shadow Harvest benefits might be tempting enough to make it worthwhile. Note that the normal PFP table is significantly less good for coven units than the Coven book's PFP table.

Sickle Squadron: Meh. That's a lot of points to spend on squishy planes. Getting to vector strike is neat, but this is another rule that doesn't really address the problems facing these units. It's a cool bonus if you were already going to take that exact combination of planes in the first place, but it wouldn't incentivize me to take those units if I wasn't going to already. I think being able to take a single flyer as an auxiliary might be more appealing.

Commorragh's Elite: Eh. Pinning and +1 WS are both extremely minor benefits, especially considering the two melee options already have pretty high WS stats. Once you're WS5, WS boosts are mostly pointless until you get up to 9 and 10. This is mostly a way to spam true born or maybe mix in some in some incubi for the lulz. I probably wouldn't take this formation for its own sake, but it works reasonably well in the decurion. The character tax isn't too big a deal, but I'm probably not going to feel compelled to do anything with the characters I wasn't doing before. I always take a klaivex when I take incubi. I may or may not toss haywires onto a dracon. The syren's upgrades are still too expensive, but blood brides have problems in general that are unrelated to this formation.

Sky Hunters: Cool. It gives you free rules for spamming an already pretty good unit, but it doesn't seem unreasonably powerful.

Murderhost: Cool. I'm not sure why incubi get to H&R away from the enemy when scorpions, banshees, and blood brides can't, but it's a fun rule to have. It's mechanically nice, but what's the justification for it? Incubi aren't especially known for their hit & run methodology. If anything, they're uniquely willing to engage in a straight up fight compared to most dark eldar.

Titan Hunters: Sure. Buffs a unit in need of buffing. I might argue that it would be better to fix the core issues facing the ravagers, but this is fine.





Automatically Appended Next Post:

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
If I add vector dancer, I would add the points for it to do so.

Adding blind wouldn't do much for the darklight weapons. Big things with low initiative should be getting eliminated by poison rounds, and all vehicles are immune. I had thought about doing it for both dark and bright Lance's but I don't think it will do much.

Making the void mine strength D would actually weaken it with my houserules. Right now it wounds anything toughness 5 or less automatically and anything that has toughness 5 due to a wargear choice are killed instantly by strength 8+. So, drop a line on thunderwolves or bikes and they go straight to making saves or death. The D has a 1/6 chance to not wound, with the same chance to ignore saves. Either one will eliminate most of the unit, but the mine would get more expensive with strength D, and the big bird is already pretty pricey.

I've never seen people complain about the speed of dark eldar, but I've seen a lot of complaints about survivability. With the current MFD and rules alterations the army will either be a little more durable to start the game, or crazy durable at the end. A nightshield raider full of kabalite warriors is only hit on a 5 or 6 by most units and would have a 2+ jink during night fighting rounds and the kabalites would start with feel no pain.

With the shields on venoms granting the invul save against "no escape", and wytches having their dodge save the entire assault phase (meaning overwatch) they also see a significant boost to durability. (I especially have enjoyed the bonus for multi assault making the wytches look like blenders against clustered units, especially when combined with the new combat drugs)

Also, throwing a succubus into a chariot venom is HUGE in regards to threat and mobility. Soak overwatch with the av10 so most ranged weapons require two 6s to do anything and they gain hammer of wrath.

All in all, give the rules a sho, you should have a blast with the new options!

Edit:referenced wrong rule, derp!

Blind isn't there to make dark light weapons better. It's there to help units like wyches mitigate the amount of damage they take from the enemy. Sort of the dark eldar version of a flashbang.

Speed isn't the problem of dark eldar, but agility kind of is. We're meant to be good at hitting and running, but we mostly just move 12", shoot moderately effectively, and then get blown away in return. Which is why I like the jetpack change to scourges. I also like the idea of our vehicles having access to an option that lets them make an assault move like a jetbike. It would allow us to duck behind terrain to hide or to get cover saves without jinking. Which feels suitable dark eldar-y. Currently, craftworlders and corsairs do the shoot and scoot thing much better than us.

I'm not in love with the "no multi-assault penalties" thing for wyches, personally. :( As is, I find they struggle to be especially good at tarpitting a unit and terrible at hurting units. Fighting more enemies at once means you're taking more punches back and splitting up your offensive killing powers. Meaning you're tarpitting worse as you die off faster and punching worse as you spread out your damage. I'd like this mechanic better if wyches had something to make them better at tarpitting or assaulting. Wyches currently do their job poorly. Doing your job even worse but against more units doesn't really help.

Notice wyches in a transport with hypex have a 22" charge range on average and after turn one in the olympiad they can run beforehand as well. The primary benefit for their multi-assault capability is to string them out and have a hard hitting unit help win combat. They will then overrun the enemy in mass to clear out space.

From a fluff perspective, they fight like the wyches do in the gathering Storm 2. They are there to flank and support their succubus. They help her kill and survive. My primary issue with them has always been a flamer or lucky overwatch killing most of them before they make it into combat. Now they aren't shredded by small arms fire as they go for the kill.

I always felt the dark eldar were never the "hit and run" types in the fluff, they simply got to a weak point and crushed it. Then moved way out and did it again. There isn't supposed to be any retaliation because everyone in the area died. So, I tried to make it so they would be able to overwhelm enemy units in an area en masse and then find another spot to do so. They are a very beta-strike army with their increasing durability as the game goes on and their weapons all benefit from escalating efficiency. Meaning the harder the target, the better off their weapons are in efficiency.

The shred bonus isn't in addition to, but instead of for pain bringer. Smash with the other drugs, these are replacements.

Vector dancer gives you a 90% turn which you get 5/6 times already due to agility.

The hellions have better attacks on the charge, but are much weaker to overwatch. Their best bet is to slam into something being held down by wyches (which would have a 4+ invul and feel no pain 6+ on turn one in the MFD)

I didn't give the incubi grenades because them having a ranged attack didn't seem to follow their fluff nowadays. Their ability to ignore cover for the charge was based on the possible background of the original striking scorpion being their originator. Him teaching his disciples how to get through terrain easily in order to murder more effectively seemed a perfectly good fluff reason for the change.

Any vehicle/monster changes made are because I rebuilt almost every one of them in the game using the updated design for more in my signature. So when you see slight differences, that is why.

The kabalite raiding party bonus is to show a dedicated setup and ambush combat style for the army. As was said above, they don't do much in regards to speed outside of flat out movement. So, this formation grants you an incentive to spend a turn getting into a better position for more damage later.

Fire long range shots down field to soften up a position, turn two dive into an area to threaten further damage where they may not be able to retaliate. Turn three, kill stuff again. Repeat as reserves arrive to ensure your enemy spends the game reacting instead of determining where the fight will happen.

As for the Baron, there isn't a reason to make the hellions troops besides having more of them. The core detachment allows up to six already. I will make a command for.ation this weekend for all the old named characters, the one for the Baron will include a significant number of hellions

I did like the old hellion rule, but it could be clunky with challenges etc. Maybe give them precision strikes instead of rage? They would have less attacks than wyches at that point (due to no extra weapon)

Finally, I love the idea of the warlord of the dark eldar army taking apart a wraithknight! Their best melee weapons steal souls for crying out loud! The knight would run out of power FAST! As an aside, make sure you take into account the changes made to the core rules in addition to these. If you think the wraithknight would survive long enough to get into melee to begin with, maybe you should check those out

Thanks for the feedback folks!

All of the changes to Adeptus Astartes armies (except deathwatch) are in the first post.

ATSKNF change, good.

The grav-amp thing is optional, right? Like, let's say I get 4 wounds on 5 dice, I don't HAVE to reroll all 5, but if I get 2 wounds on 5 dice, I can choose to reroll all 5, right?

Why is the Land Raider so damn pricey? It sucks.

I still don't agree with Space Marine Dreadnoughts having 4 attacks.
The only time when using a Dreadnought that 2 attacks feels insufficient is against Necrons.
They are not meant to slaughter infantry, they are for breaking vehicles/MC and with 2 attacks they do decent at that for how cheap they are (Especially as the average MC struggles to hurt them)

Also 588 for the Thunderhawk? Why not a multiple of 5?

So I'm going to try to analyse the stuff I know about since reviewing things like you DE changes would mean nothing (since - in this example - I know nothing about DE). So here goes.

General rules

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
Any model that is a character in a unit receives 1 additional wound as well as any other benefits, to a max of 3W. Codex Eldar, Skitarii, and Harlequins do not gain this benefit.

No. Just no. This is totally unnecessary and doesn't fix any problems. It probably will only cause problems.

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
Storm bolters are strength 5.

Definitely A solution, but not the only solution to the Storm Bolter Problem.

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
All twin linked weapons gain a +1 bonus to wound and for armor penetration rolls.

Why?

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
Vehicles are not limited in regards to shooting when performing a ram or tank shock action.

Again: Why? This limitation makes sense.

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
A charging unit only needs to get within 1” of their target to successfully charge.

For a this time: Why? What broken mechanic or problem does this fix?

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
When a non-superheavy vehicle or building suffers an “explodes!” or “detonates” result, treat the strength of the explosion as being equal to the starting hull points of the vehicle.

I kinda like this - it adds a bit more of a dynamic and proportionality to vehicles, buildings, and their Explodes! Result, but at the end of the day: The Strength of the explosion has never been an issue.

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
All missile launchers gain their flakk equivalent upgrade for free.

I think making the Missile Launcher and the Flakk Upgrade cheaper overall is the better option. Otherwise you're paying 15 Points for a Missile Launcher w/ Anti-Air capabilities.

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
Smoke launchers may be used when the unit equipped with it is targeted. This replaces the normal benefit (still one use only)

Think about how the idea of launching smoke works. A smoke grenade (or their equivalent in this scenario) isn't going to provide instantaneous cover. It takes time for the smoke to disperse and provide cover. This is represented by how the mechanic currently works and I don't think it needs changing. As for the Shooting being affected, maybe instead say that the vehicle may only shoot up to one weapon as Snap Shots or something.

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
If a piece of wargear increases the toughness of a model equipped, the model in question is still subject to instant death as if it were the original toughness.

That makes no sense as a general rule, not to mention trying to weed out which circumstances this does make sense in would be too annoying for most people to deal with in any given game.

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
Any weapon that is “strengthx2” is now considered “strength+4”

Why? Is this simply because of the prevalence of Strength 4? Or is it to fix a problem? Or....?

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
glancing hits on vehicles cause an unmodified roll on the vehicle damage table. penetrating hits are the only way to remove hull points.Fortifications take a -1 to rolls on their damage table caused by glancing hits (to a minimum of 1)

A concept that's been discussed many times and this seems to be the favoured option, but I don't think it's the right solution (though this is admittedly because I prefer the Initial Proposal I proposed a while back).

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
if a model has a weapon skill three times or better than the weapon skill of the unit they are targeting they hit on a 2+ (so a model with weapon skill 6 or 7 would hit a ws2 model on a 2+)

I agree with this hands down. It needed to happen a long time ago.

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
melta/fusion pistols are armorbane instead of melta

Why? Does being a pistol somehow change the nature of Melta Weapons?

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
Blast weapons do not need to place the center hole over an enemy base. Simply place the template to hit as many models as possible.

At least part of the reason I think the whole mechanic of placing the center of the blast over a model's base is to prevent shenanigans whereby players attempt to hit units outside the range of the weapon. For example, under your proposal, I could abuse this mechanic to try to scatter the Blast of a Vindicator's Demolisher Cannon onto a target that is more than 24" away. So I disagree with this proposal on the basis of mechanics abuse.

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
Any weapon with a strength 4 or higher than a target's toughness wounds automatically.

If this means what I think it means, than absolutely not! No way!


Adeptus Astartes

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
“... and they shall know no fear” only grants rerolls to fear tests as opposed to outright immunity.

Decent enough change.

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
black templar crusader squads may be chosen whenever a formation requires a tactical marine squad.

As much as people have been whining about this for ages, it's not the solution Black Templar players need. What they needed was all the Formations they're at least starting to get with the Gathering Storm books. Rather than try to piggyback off the formations used by the Codex-Compliant Chapters, they need their own.

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
A captain purchased in a formation may be upgraded to a chapter master.

This is already a thing. You can do this already.

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
You must reroll all of the dice when using grav-amps

So you're trying to say that you should re-roll all the 'To Wound' rolls when using Grav-Amps and not just failed 'To Wound' Rolls? Not much of a nerf in grand scheme of fixing Grav.

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
Tactical terminators may have two models equip a heavy weapon out of every five.

Another decent change.


Now onto the points costs. I'll do this as one big quote and put my responses in red.

As for the points adjustments you made to Space Marines, the only adjustment I agree with is the reduction in cost of the Vindicators. There are some adjustments that aren't actually adjustments (they're just the base cost). Then there's some weird adjustments, like the Thunderhawk Gunship being 588 Points... What's with that? It makes no sense. Then there's the price increase in the normal Land Raider! Land Raiders do NOT need to be more expensive. If anything Land Raiders and the two other variants need to be cheaper.

By increasing damage for all twin linked weapons the land raiders will perform significantly better than they currently do. Then there is the fact that it is harder to kill one outright due to the change to hullpoints and monsters/walkers closing the distance faster making durable melee units more necessary to slow them down makes the land raider a viable tool on the table top for only a couple more points.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
As for dreadnaughts, I gave walkers more attacks since they should be bullies on the table to other heavy hitting melee units. A horde of gretchen shouldn't have an easy time holding one down an entire game, and making them have better damage output as a trade off for the durability of monstrous creatures let's the two fill the same role but with different advantages.

With the Thunderhawk, that was just what it matter out to be. Changing it to 590 isn't an issue, I can do that in a minute.

Oh, also, your twin-linked changes make for some really weird situations.

A TL Bolter (S4) now wounds T7 better than a Heavy Bolter (S5).

The Bolter would wounds on 6s, +1 for TL, for 5+s. The Heavy Bolter wounds on 6s... Period.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Oh, also, your twin-linked changes make for some really weird situations.

A TL Bolter (S4) now wounds T7 better than a Heavy Bolter (S5).

The Bolter would wounds on 6s, +1 for TL, for 5+s. The Heavy Bolter wounds on 6s... Period.

I need to make it more clear then, it would move higher on the to wound chart. I have one written up at the house, so I didn't think to clarify it here.

They both need 6's to wound.

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Oh, also, your twin-linked changes make for some really weird situations.

A TL Bolter (S4) now wounds T7 better than a Heavy Bolter (S5).

The Bolter would wounds on 6s, +1 for TL, for 5+s. The Heavy Bolter wounds on 6s... Period.

I need to make it more clear then, it would move higher on the to wound chart. I have one written up at the house, so I didn't think to clarify it here.

They both need 6's to wound.

So +1 strength then?
But why? What's wrong with the current twin-linked rules?
Why does shooting more mean you're shooting harder?

Not a full +1 to strength, just the same bonus to wound. It won't cause instant death unless it already did.

You aren't hitting harder, you are increasing the chance to cause injury. It isn't as potent of a chance as the shred special rule, but throwing extra bullets at something should increase the likelihood of injuring them in addition to bettering your chance to hit.

So, a twin linked autocannons with my rule would automatically wound a space Marine, but wouldn't kill them instantly if they failed a save for example.

A lot of times I see people say they wish they could simply fire more shots for twin linked weapons. The price for twin linked is cheaper than an additional gun, but increasing the chance to wound is (in my opinion) a fair compromise.

Edit:because my phone hates me sometimes.

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:

Spoiler:

 IllumiNini wrote:
So I'm going to try to analyse the stuff I know about since reviewing things like you DE changes would mean nothing (since - in this example - I know nothing about DE). So here goes.

General rules

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
Any model that is a character in a unit receives 1 additional wound as well as any other benefits, to a max of 3W. Codex Eldar, Skitarii, and Harlequins do not gain this benefit.

No. Just no. This is totally unnecessary and doesn't fix any problems. It probably will only cause problems.

Hasn't caused any problems in the two years I've had it implemented. It allows for people to be more willing to pay points to upgrade characters as well as adding a slight boost to survivability for a lot of elite units in the game.

It's too much of a blanket rule. On a Unit-By-Unit basis, this could work in the sense that Terminators (not just their Sergeants who are Characters) from the Space Marine Codeces arguably need this boost, but the Centurion Sergeants (who are Characters) do not. And implementing it over two years means nothing to me. Have you implemented it across all the armies that you suggest it should apply to? Have you introduced enough variability in the games you've played with all of these armies to negate the effects of specific match-ups? These and other factors are the ones you need to account for, not time.

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:

Spoiler:

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
Storm bolters are strength 5.

Definitely A solution, but not the only solution to the Storm Bolter Problem.

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
All twin linked weapons gain a +1 bonus to wound and for armor penetration rolls.

Why?

Because it allows them to increase maximum damage capacity without making them completely overshadow weapons with a higher strength.

But as pointed out by other users, it adds another element to being Twin-Linked that isn't always going to work. See their posts if you want to know why this is a bad idea. If you like this idea so much, make a separate USR and give it this property, then add it only to those weapons that would benefit from it without being overpowered. That way you avoid the crossover that creates problems (but even this sounds like an unnecessary and bad idea).

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:

Spoiler:

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
Vehicles are not limited in regards to shooting when performing a ram or tank shock action.

Again: Why? This limitation makes sense.

No, it doesn't. A tank driving straight ahead doesn't care if there are infantry there or not. The people Manning the gun emplacement on the side wouldn't be so preoccupied with the tank driver rolling over them that they forget how to shoot. Especially when you realise that this penalty applied to things like baneblades and the Lord of skulls.

Well then make it specific to SHV's and units like the Lord of Skulls. Consider a tank 'Tank Shocking' an infantry squad: This would probably require notably increased acceleration and speed in order to achieve since - let's be honest - infantry tend to be a little more nimble than a tank. With than in mind, do you really think that a gunner's ability to aim will not be affected by a sudden, relatively unexpected increase in acceleration and speed? If so, take a minute to come to the same conclusion. Also, Ramming: Do you honestly think that the tank a gunner is riding in hitting another tank is not going to affect their shooting ability? Again, take a minute to think about it. Should either of these actions negate their ability to shoot at all? Probably not from both a game perspective and a real life perspective, but you can't honestly tell me that shooting will be unaffected from either standpoint.

Find the middle ground, here.

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:

Spoiler:

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
A charging unit only needs to get within 1” of their target to successfully charge.

For a this time: Why? What broken mechanic or problem does this fix?

It allows you first turn charges and also negates some of the "you are just out of range for this charge" because all you need is to get within a certain distance as opposed to direct contact.

First Turn Charges are largely considered to be a little overpowered. Your reasoning also sounds lazy. What if I applied the same to shooting weapons? Take the good ol' Demolisher Cannon again: Why can it not shoot at something that is 25" away as opposed to it's Maximum Range of 24"? This rule is unnecessary and does nothing to improve the game.

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:

Spoiler:

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
When a non-superheavy vehicle or building suffers an “explodes!” or “detonates” result, treat the strength of the explosion as being equal to the starting hull points of the vehicle.

I kinda like this - it adds a bit more of a dynamic and proportionality to vehicles, buildings, and their Explodes! Result, but at the end of the day: The Strength of the explosion has never been an issue.

Dark eldar in venoms would disagree. The idea that a land raider exploding is the same strength as a truck or a vyper is a bit nuts

Please explain to me why they would disagree? What benefit does this give them? And is this house rule you're proposing in place simply to benefit them? Or does it benefit units and armies from across the spectrum?

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:

Spoiler:

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
All missile launchers gain their flakk equivalent upgrade for free.

I think making the Missile Launcher and the Flakk Upgrade cheaper overall is the better option. Otherwise you're paying 15 Points for a Missile Launcher w/ Anti-Air capabilities.

Which allows it to fill the role of generalist weapon much better. When combined with my change to wounding models (ie the krack missile wounding t4 and instant death on things like normal bikes) makes them a more viable option. Also giving you a better chance to pen than str6-7 makes them a decent way to kill medium sized vehicles

Counter-claim: 15 Points is too cheap, but 25 is too expensive. 20 Points for all three is fair. You have versatility and appropriate points cost.

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:

Spoiler:

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
Smoke launchers may be used when the unit equipped with it is targeted. This replaces the normal benefit (still one use only)

Think about how the idea of launching smoke works. A smoke grenade (or their equivalent in this scenario) isn't going to provide instantaneous cover. It takes time for the smoke to disperse and provide cover. This is represented by how the mechanic currently works and I don't think it needs changing. As for the Shooting being affected, maybe instead say that the vehicle may only shoot up to one weapon as Snap Shots or something.

But it would be a single push of a button done when they see they're being targeted. Considering how quickly unleashing a smoke screen is now, 30,000+ years from now I expect it to be pretty fast.

Dispersal of smoke is relatively fast now, but not apparently as fast as you might think. The speed of dispersal is also highly dependent on the dispersal method and environment. Also, if I turn my Missile Launcher towards your tank and fire in a matter of the 2 or three seconds (tops) it takes me to stand up and depress the trigger, I doubt any smoke that you launch is going to disperse in time to affect my aim or my ability to see my target clearly. Just saying.

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:

Spoiler:

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
If a piece of wargear increases the toughness of a model equipped, the model in question is still subject to instant death as if it were the original toughness.

That makes no sense as a general rule, not to mention trying to weed out which circumstances this does make sense in would be too annoying for most people to deal with in any given game.

Basically anything that is riding a mount that a character can choose is counted a one T less for instant death purposes. Easy.

Well let's what about Characters on Bikes that are part of - for example - a Space Marine Bike Squad. Are you telling me that the Biker (Veteran) Sergeant is supposed to be Toughness 4 while all the other Bikers are still Toughness 5 for the purposes of Instant Death?

And why are we only ignoring the addition to Toughness with regards to Instant Death?

Again, this seems a quite silly and doesn't fix any problem with the game that I know of, so if you'd care to enlighten us...?

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:

Spoiler:

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
Any weapon that is “strengthx2” is now considered “strength+4”

Why? Is this simply because of the prevalence of Strength 4? Or is it to fix a problem? Or....?

It solves the problem of fixed points for upgrades while also taking down some of the math for damage

Strength + 4 isn't going to fix the points issue. Going on a unit-by-unit or even a codex-by-codex basis would be better. For example, a Power Fist may be worth the 25 Points when equipped to a Space Marine, but only 15 or 20 Points when equipped to a Guardman. That's not an issue with the profile of the weapon, that's simply an issue with points costs. If you want to address points costing, address points costing. Don't address something else in the hopes that it will address points costing.

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:

Spoiler:

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
melta/fusion pistols are armorbane instead of melta

Why? Does being a pistol somehow change the nature of Melta Weapons?

No, but needing to get within 3" for a (hopeful) explodes result is rediculous. So, I changed the stats of the weapon to show it having the same power but weakening faster than the rifle version

If that's what you're trying to do with a Melta Pistol, then maybe you should re-think how you try to use them. I still don't see the issue and I don't think this particular point needs 'Fixing'.

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:

Spoiler:

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
Blast weapons do not need to place the center hole over an enemy base. Simply place the template to hit as many models as possible.

At least part of the reason I think the whole mechanic of placing the center of the blast over a model's base is to prevent shenanigans whereby players attempt to hit units outside the range of the weapon. For example, under your proposal, I could abuse this mechanic to try to scatter the Blast of a Vindicator's Demolisher Cannon onto a target that is more than 24" away. So I disagree with this proposal on the basis of mechanics abuse.

You could already try to scatter the template by putting near the edge of the group. This change actually forces them to place it near the center (since it stipulates hitting as many models as possible)

You've clearly missed my point. What if 'Placing it over as many models as possible' doesn't actually cover any models or allow you to hit models you wouldn't otherwise be allowed to hit? If the person is targeting something well within the weapons Range, this rule works all well and good, bu you're effectively fething with the rules with regards to to any given weapon's Maximum and Minimum Range.

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:

Spoiler:

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
Any weapon with a strength 4 or higher than a target's toughness wounds automatically.

If this means what I think it means, than absolutely not! No way!

It makes single shot high strength weapons as viable as mutlti-shot medium strength weapons. Totally fine.

Why not nerf Multi-Shot, Medium Strength Weapons instead? There's no need to up the power level of these other weapons. That's Power Creep, not Balance.

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:

Spoiler:

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
You must reroll all of the dice when using grav-amps

So you're trying to say that you should re-roll all the 'To Wound' rolls when using Grav-Amps and not just failed 'To Wound' Rolls? Not much of a nerf in grand scheme of fixing Grav.

Forcing them to reroll all results keeps it from being a viable option mathematically against lightly armored targets.

Then fix the Gravitation Mechanic, not the Grav-Amps Mechanic. Also, if you think the re-rolls as they stand in the current rules are the problem, wouldn't it be easier and more streamlined to simply remove the mechanic all together (i.e. remove Grav-Amps)?

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:

Spoiler:

As for the points adjustments you made to Space Marines, the only adjustment I agree with is the reduction in cost of the Vindicators. There are some adjustments that aren't actually adjustments (they're just the base cost). Then there's some weird adjustments, like the Thunderhawk Gunship being 588 Points... What's with that? It makes no sense. Then there's the price increase in the normal Land Raider! Land Raiders do NOT need to be more expensive. If anything Land Raiders and the two other variants need to be cheaper.

I've used the extra wound rule with every eldar army, chaos marines, space Marines (including space wolves and dark angels), astra militarum, Orks, Tau, skitarri, daemons, and the lost and the damned army list from forgeworld. Again, never been a negative impact to the game in 2 years.

Tank shocking vehicles aren't accelerating any faster than a vehicle normally would, speed is determined by distance moved, and that already affects accuracy. A leman Russ tank isn't going to be going any farther than normal, but if there are three dudes standing d ctly in front of the tank when they start to move, for some reason the guy in the turret, forward gun, heavy stubber, and the side sponsons suddenly can't fire effectively.

Venom riding wyches used to get hit with a str3 blast because of open topped bonuses. I thought about​ bringing it back, but decided to vary the damage output from explosions more. So, when their transport explodes now they'll be hit with a str2 boom as opposed to a str4 one and be much less likely to die because of it.

The other posters didn't say it was a bad rule, they didn't understand the reasoning behind it. I explained my side.

With smoke launchers, the same could be said for jink. If you are shooting a beam of light at a vehicle, the idea it can dodge said weapon is absurd. I made a rule work better to allow for most tracked vehicles a one time defensive boost if they're caught in the open. Also allowing the player more choices in their opponents' turn is a good thing.

My rule for blast doesn't change the fact you have to target a unit or allow you to target units outside of normal range. It just allows you to not have your big kaboom negated by people standing a couple feet away from each other.

All bikes, thunderwolves, blood crushers, etc are affected by the rule for instant death in my house rules, not just characters. The reason I stipulated ones that can be taken by characters is to show a difference between normal bike and say an attack bike or deff kopta. They are special units that should stand out compared to their more prevalent counterparts in the armies. The problem it fixes is how hard it is to cause instant death to multi-wound models on bikes or cavalry. So, a battle cannon with my rules wouldn't get to wound automatically (because toughness 5) but would eliminate an entire thunderwolf riding iron priests if he failed a save.

Making power fists a flat +4 to strength is much easier than trying to adjust point values on a unit by until basis accross every codex in the game. The difference between str7 ap2 and str8 ap2 can be perfectly accounted for by the difference in price between the base models.

Changing the high strength weapons isn't power creep, it is keeping damage capability within the game even. If something has a toughness 4+ higher than a weapon's strength, it cannot wound. With this change the opposite is true. It allows for plasma guns to help more against hordes, and if your space Marine battle tank hits a guardsman with it's primary gun the idea that he has just as much chance of ignoring that injury as he does a heavy bolter doesn't make any sense. Weapons have a better bell curve at higher strength to let them be a viable choice on the table.

Grav isn't good at taking down hordes. Even with their volume of fire they are still wounding guardsmen as a str2 ap2 (str1 ap2 for Tyranids) weapon. It is when you allow people to reroll FAILED wounds that the balance skews heavily because it is then greatly increases the odds of wounding these lightly armored targets. By making the grav amp follow this rule (which is contentious as to whether or not it is the rule to begin with) the grav cannon and amp fill their primary role of heavy infantry/monster hunting as opposed to being the best all around option (in excess of the point cost)

The land raider is only weak due to the core rule set. There are too many escalating efficiency weapons that negate the durability of the tank itself. By lowering the lethality of these weapons to a point where it will hinder the tank as opposed to destroying it outright, and creating a meta where the ability to deliver heavy melee based infantry effectively is necessary in most games the land raider is priced more effectively.

If you play a game using these rules, you will see what I mean. It will take a bit of learning, there are a LOT of changes. But my group has been building this list for years because we are like minded role-playing game nerds who never had a problem modifying games when we noticed balance issues.

Just give it a shot, it might surprise you

So... Screw Space Wolves, amirite?
I mean, the stuff you buff is so terrible to begin with that it's not really helpful (Wolf Scouts and Wolf Guard Terminators are still going to suck,) nerf our ability to work with allies so that we're worse than Space Marines (who don't lose Chapter Tactics when attached to Guardsmen or Sisters or whoever else that isn't a Marine,) nerf our Psykers by arbitrarily limiting what powers we can roll, and between the Astartes rules and the main rule changes, you take our only two good units and make them pretty mediocre.
It's already difficult to make a competitive Space Wolf army. Your 'changes' would make it nigh-impossible.

(Though I will point out that you seem to not understand something about TWC. You *seem* like you think they would be vulnerable to Instant Death against S8, but unless you are editing them just to shaft even more Space Wolf stuff, the TWC aren't having their Toughness boosted by Wargear, it's a direct stat modification, as supported by the official FAQ that clarifies that a Power Fist is still S10, when wargear that just gives a bonus would result in a S9 power fist.)