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Still think DE should get better jink saves than anyone else, no matter how they work. I see those guys in my mind jinking like mofos as they tear up the field.

Certainly DE should be better than Eldar.

 JimOnMars wrote:
Still think DE should get better jink saves than anyone else, no matter how they work. I see those guys in my mind jinking like mofos as they tear up the field.

Certainly DE should be better than Eldar.

Now please don't take this the wrong way, but understand, this sounds REALLY, petty.

But I do agree in some aspect but if you really wanna get more outta dark eldar you need to load up their party barge and jink it all the time with recent FAQ models inside a vehicle don't count as jinking if the transport jinks, so, open top fire away!

Why would fluffy rules be petty? I don't think it petty that Thousand Suns have a lot of psychic dice. Nor is it petty that Necrons are durable, nor Deathwatch are versatile nor genestealers stealthy. Why would it be petty that Dark Eldar are good at jinking?

Not sure I get where you're coming from.

 Backspacehacker wrote:

 JimOnMars wrote:
Still think DE should get better jink saves than anyone else, no matter how they work. I see those guys in my mind jinking like mofos as they tear up the field.

Certainly DE should be better than Eldar.

Now please don't take this the wrong way, but understand, this sounds REALLY, petty.

But I do agree in some aspect but if you really wanna get more outta dark eldar you need to load up their party barge and jink it all the time with recent FAQ models inside a vehicle don't count as jinking if the transport jinks, so, open top fire away!

There is good fluffy reason for it though. Eldar have better reflexes than Space Marines and Dark Eldar being melee preference have better reflexes again, it doesn't get represented by a higher initiative in melee but I think that a better jink save would be fair.

 The Shadow wrote:

The only suggestion I like, which I think someone mentioned (I only skimmed the post - pun intended) was to make Jink worse on higher AV vehicles, which does make sense as they would be heavier and therefore less agile. Perhaps a less messier fix would to reduce standard Jink to a 5+ but to say that Fast Skimmers, Jetbikes and (maybe Bikes too) get a 4+. This would reduce the power of Jink on certain things that could do with a nerf, such as deathstars surrounding the use of Jinking bikes as a save mechanic, but keep things that really need that Jink, such as the DE vehicles that have mentioned, equally as survivable while making a lot of sense. In my opinion, at least.

So, if skimmers, jetbikes and bikes get to jink...who doesn't? Is there anyone else jinking?

 JimOnMars wrote:
Why would fluffy rules be petty? I don't think it petty that Thousand Suns have a lot of psychic dice. Nor is it petty that Necrons are durable, nor Deathwatch are versatile nor genestealers stealthy. Why would it be petty that Dark Eldar are good at jinking?

Not sure I get where you're coming from.

I understand its a fluffy thing, but the way it comes off is, your saying my army should be the best army at this because fluff, when i use the same argument for space marines it sounds the same.

Lore wise the bolter is a mini RPG that does not detonate until it is inside a target, so because of that, lore wise they should be S5 AP 3 and marines should have at least T5 or W2 because in lore they can loose and entire limb or get a hole blown through them and keep fighting.

It just does not hold actual water. That said, I would not be against Dark Eldar having skilled rider or the ability to buy the upgrade to one of their vehicles that can jink.

1) There is nothing wrong with jink, just take Ignore cover
2) Only things that are stupidly strong are things thats GW knew had jink and they gave it more rules to make it better, this isnt jink being to strong its inbalance
3) Just melee, yes 40k is more of a shooting game, but you can still melee.....
4) To many things need jink to even be playable
5) Its to fluffy of a good rule to remove, we dont have enough good fluffy rules
6) Fix the power between the armies and rules then if its to strong we can talk...

 Amishprn86 wrote:
1) There is nothing wrong with jink, just take Ignore cover

This isn't a solution that should even be touted about.

Jink shouldn't force units that rely on Cover Saves to be crap, which ends up happening by virtue of people taking a lot of Ignores Cover stuff just to counteract Jinking units.

Jink should be its own save,separate from a Cover Save, and AA weapons should get the ability to negate or reduce a Jink Save if they land a hit. End of story.

2) Only things that are stupidly strong are things thats GW knew had jink and they gave it more rules to make it better, this isnt jink being to strong its inbalance

Reaver Jetbikes.
Flyers.

3) Just melee, yes 40k is more of a shooting game, but you can still melee.....

Try getting into melee with Guardian Jetbikes.

4) To many things need jink to even be playable

You could remove Jink from Guardian Jetbikes and they'd still be playable.

5) Its to fluffy of a good rule to remove, we dont have enough good fluffy rules
6) Fix the power between the armies and rules then if its to strong we can talk...

This is just the kind of "L2P" attitude that is not conducive to quality discussion.

Jink could just be declared when they're targeted, as it is now, but an initiative test (or a flat 4+) that's done before they roll to shoot. If they pass the unit shooting at them suffers -1 to hit (I guess -2 for skilled rider/pilot but I'm not so sure on pushing it too much).

Don't want it to be too complex though so I'm not sure of this idea.

 koooaei wrote:

 The Shadow wrote:

The only suggestion I like, which I think someone mentioned (I only skimmed the post - pun intended) was to make Jink worse on higher AV vehicles, which does make sense as they would be heavier and therefore less agile. Perhaps a less messier fix would to reduce standard Jink to a 5+ but to say that Fast Skimmers, Jetbikes and (maybe Bikes too) get a 4+. This would reduce the power of Jink on certain things that could do with a nerf, such as deathstars surrounding the use of Jinking bikes as a save mechanic, but keep things that really need that Jink, such as the DE vehicles that have mentioned, equally as survivable while making a lot of sense. In my opinion, at least.

So, if skimmers, jetbikes and bikes get to jink...who doesn't? Is there anyone else jinking?

What's your point here? I think one of us doesn't quite understand the other...

All the unit types you've listed jink anyway in the current rules so if you're complaining about the prevalence of jink that's nothing to do with my suggestions (not that I'd suggest removing it from anything either though). But I'm guessing you knew that already.

Note that I said Fast Skimmers get the 4+ Jink. So regular Skimmers like a Tau Hammerhead would only get a 5+, whereas stuff like Dark Eldar Raiders would get an improved 4+ to represent the fact that they're lighter and more agile. Is that what's causing confusion? I also said Bikes were a maybe. While they're certainly not as agile as Jetbikes and light skimmers like Raiders, they're probably a lot more agile than a Hammerhead, so they're kind of borderline. I'd probably put them in the less agile category of 5+, if it were up to me, but I imagine there are those who'd disagree.

Does that clear things up? If it doesn't I'm afraid I'm not sure what you're getting at

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:
1) There is nothing wrong with jink, just take Ignore cover

This isn't a solution that should even be touted about.

Jink shouldn't force units that rely on Cover Saves to be crap, which ends up happening by virtue of people taking a lot of Ignores Cover stuff just to counteract Jinking units.

Jink should be its own save,separate from a Cover Save, and AA weapons should get the ability to negate or reduce a Jink Save if they land a hit. End of story.

2) Only things that are stupidly strong are things thats GW knew had jink and they gave it more rules to make it better, this isnt jink being to strong its inbalance

Reaver Jetbikes.
Flyers.

3) Just melee, yes 40k is more of a shooting game, but you can still melee.....

Try getting into melee with Guardian Jetbikes.

4) To many things need jink to even be playable

You could remove Jink from Guardian Jetbikes and they'd still be playable.

5) Its to fluffy of a good rule to remove, we dont have enough good fluffy rules
6) Fix the power between the armies and rules then if its to strong we can talk...

This is just the kind of "L2P" attitude that is not conducive to quality discussion.

Reaver Jetbikes are not good without Jink, they are 5+ armor with 0 invul unlike Eldar bikes with 3+ armor or Harle bikes with 4+/4++/5++
Fliers are worthless if they jink, Look at Orc and DE fliers, without jink they wouldnt last 1 turn on the table.
Jink improved the game IMO
Eldar Jetbikes are just to good in general, they dont need a special weapon on each model, they arnt good b.c oh Jink, they are good b.c many other reasons.
Yes it is a L2P discussion IMO. ever sense Jink came out and got better it never made a game 1 sided in all my 300+ 7th ed games (I play DE, Eldar, Harlequins and Corsairs) so I know all about jinking. Jink in most cases made the game more fun and even. I even play my friend that brings 3 Storm Ravens (he likes the model) he jinks with them many times, I dont get made, Im glad at least I forced 750pts to be 1/4 as effective as it was with a few shots and just ignore them getting objectives.

My input into this discussion is Jink is fine the way it is, b.c you dont agree with it doesnt mean you can ignore what I have to say and say "its not conductive" no it is, there is always 2 sides to the coin. :p

I find this topic rather ridiculous for Dark Eldar players. I mean we're made out of tissue paper. I realize some armies that get it probably don't need it but what are you proposing to replace it with?

Also kanluwen if you have issue with reaver jetbikes then i'm sorry but learn to play. They have 5+ armor and toughness 4. If they didn't have jink and skilled rider almost nobody would run them and yeah to my knowledge you have multiple blast weapons in guard that ignore cover anyway. This is also considering you have to be careful with this melee unit because if it fails to reach base contact it can't use it's cluster caltrops for 'hammer of wrath' (which doesn't allow a separate pile-in which is super stupid and they don't have fleet on dark eldar jetbikes which is also stupid) which you will cry at if you fail because the rest of their melee is pretty garbage. Also if your reavers get charged in all likelihood they will do next to no damage and die en masse. Even after rolling an extra +1 toughness on their combat drugs (which is a 1/6 for a whopping toughness 5) they still got destroyed by ork boyz after killing their targets.

The other thing you might use reavers for is their heat lances which would be ok if you could jump shoot jump effectively with it (heat lances with 18" and 9" range for tank hunting is somewhat tough) and you can only take one special weapon per 3 unlike the eldar ones which can take a special weapon on every bike. It's not super easy though as you'd need cover and the short range means you'd either have to be out of line of sight or in cover. Of course skilled rider doesn't boost your cover save in terrain but just jinks. It does however prevent DT which would absolutely murder reaver jetbikes otherwise.

Btw you want to know what's really BS? Tau smart missile systems. Oh hey it's nice that you have cover saves and aren't in line of sight. Too bad we still hit you anyway and avoid everything you can do (cover, armor, lack of line of sight) and wound your bikes on 2's. There's a lot of cheese in tau and they counter dark eldar hardcore but smart missile systems are pretty high up on the list.

Besides dark eldar deserve some good toys. It's fair that reavers are decent. Without jink reavers would be so much worse that they might rate only a bit better than hellions. I mean we don't even have grenades on most of our combat units or armor even. So much for the famed dark eldar initiative when charging into cover. If reavers got ruined here handling units in cover would be even harder than it already is. Haemonculus covens would pretty much be the only possible thing dark eldar players could play even more so than it already is.

Amishprn86 wrote:
Reaver Jetbikes are not good without Jink, they are 5+ armor with 0 invul unlike Eldar bikes with 3+ armor or Harle bikes with 4+/4++/5++
Fliers are worthless if they jink, Look at Orc and DE fliers, without jink they wouldnt last 1 turn on the table.

What was your statement?

2) Only things that are stupidly strong are things thats GW knew had jink and they gave it more rules to make it better, this isnt jink being to strong its inbalance

Jink improved the game IMO

Jink, by itself, isn't what's wrong here. More on that in a second.

Eldar Jetbikes are just to good in general, they dont need a special weapon on each model, they arnt good b.c oh Jink, they are good b.c many other reasons.
Yes it is a L2P discussion IMO. ever sense Jink came out and got better it never made a game 1 sided in all my 300+ 7th ed games (I play DE, Eldar, Harlequins and Corsairs) so I know all about jinking. Jink in most cases made the game more fun and even. I even play my friend that brings 3 Storm Ravens (he likes the model) he jinks with them many times, I dont get made, Im glad at least I forced 750pts to be 1/4 as effective as it was with a few shots and just ignore them getting objectives.

My input into this discussion is Jink is fine the way it is, b.c you dont agree with it doesnt mean you can ignore what I have to say and say "its not conductive" no it is, there is always 2 sides to the coin. :p

Jink is awful the way it is.

If Jink existed, by itself, and did not allow for rerollable saves or Psyker abilities didn't exist granting units that had Jink Shrouded or make them so they could only ever be hit by Snap Shots(many of the 'counters' to bikes are Blast or Template weapons, which cannot be snap fired, and the kinds of weapons that counter FMCs but not Flyers are high S but low ROF...unless you're Grav, which is a whole different bucket of bananas).

Jink is the key issue in regards to 7th edition though. It never should have been made a Cover Save. It should have been made its own save, and weapons that they wanted to counteract such a thing should have been given "Ignores Jink".

PS:
I can completely ignore what you have to say and write it off as "not conducive" to the discussion as when your only input was to say "take Ignores Cover stuff", and then blatantly ignore the point I made about how the proliferation of Ignores Cover as a means of screwing with Jinking armies has been a negative impact on units that traditionally rely solely on Cover Saves to get things done(SM Scouts, Ratlings, Eldar Rangers, Tyranids...)...it makes it seem like you are only here to argue on behalf of your pet army, not actually engage in discussion.

flamingkillamajig wrote:I find this topic rather ridiculous for Dark Eldar players. I mean we're made out of tissue paper. I realize some armies that get it probably don't need it but what are you proposing to replace it with?

Also kanluwen if you have issue with reaver jetbikes then i'm sorry but learn to play.

I would suggest that you learn to read before making inane comments like this.

The example of Reaver Jetbikes was posted alongside of Flyers as a counter to this ridiculous statement:

2) Only things that are stupidly strong are things thats GW knew had jink and they gave it more rules to make it better, this isnt jink being to strong its inbalance

 Amishprn86 wrote:
1) There is nothing wrong with jink, just take Ignore cover

My entire army has 2 weapons with Ignores Cover, Burnas and Skorchas. That is it. Neither is good, both are highly over priced and both are hard to get and short ranged template weapons.

2) Only things that are stupidly strong are things thats GW knew had jink and they gave it more rules to make it better, this isnt jink being to strong its inbalance

I agree with this a bit. Ork Bikers have Jink and are not considered OP. Good? yes, OP? No.
Eldar Jetbikes have Jink and a dozen other rules and easy access to psychic powers which make those rules even better.
Or my favorite, the Eldar Skimmers that have easy access to improved Jink.

3) Just melee, yes 40k is more of a shooting game, but you can still melee.....

Melee in 7th has been reduced to Super units and Death Stars, Everyone else is struggling hugely to get into CC, let alone win once they get there. Nobody is afraid of Blood Angels Assault Marines or a Mob of 10 ork boyz anymore because they die before they get into CC and if they do survive to get there they are so depleted that they can do very little and even less after Overwatch.

4) To many things need jink to even be playable

I agree, to an extent. Ork Biker Boyz need Jink, but if they didn't have it they could lose a few points off their price (6) and it would be fine. Skimmers? to an extent but again a price decrease would fix that as well.

5) Its to fluffy of a good rule to remove, we dont have enough good fluffy rules

To an extent, 2+ and 3+ rerollable Jink saves is a bit fething stupid. "Ohh I got nailed by that lascannon even though i shifted to my left, better shift to my right! much better" To put this another way, this should be HARD TO GET, not almost army wide and easily attainable. Eldar have easy access to rerollable saves and improving Jink saves by psychic shenanigans. Dark Angels have the easiest and most reliable way of doing this. Orks? Orks need Zhadsnark, a Warboss on bike and DLS as well as Nightfghting or First turn TurboCharge to get that all important 2+ rerollable jink save.

6) Fix the power between the armies and rules then if its to strong we can talk...

Yup.

I dont like to be that guy but to be that guy. ITs your own fault if you dont bring more ignore cover weapons to a fight you know is going to have jink, i mean, cmon man, you are kinda asking for it.

I hate to pull this line but, with all the posts in here complaining about jink, it honestly boils down to, Get Good, or Learn how to play.

Im not saying full blown list tailor, but at least think about what you bring.

 Backspacehacker wrote:
I dont like to be that guy but to be that guy. ITs your own fault if you dont bring more ignore cover weapons to a fight you know is going to have jink, i mean, cmon man, you are kinda asking for it.

I hate to pull this line but, with all the posts in here complaining about jink, it honestly boils down to, Get Good, or Learn how to play.

Im not saying full blown list tailor, but at least think about what you bring.

And to those players who have armies that don't have access to ignores cover weapons like Orks and such? Or are you suggesting I should bring 2-3 Mobs of Burna Boyz and a Burna Bommer whenever I play against Dark Angels?

This is a useless post to help players with because their are armies that don't have easy access to Ignores Cover weapons like SM, Tau and a few others have. Also, if your going to a Tournament you can't list tailor.

So Get good and L2P are yet again terrible advice.

Get in melee? Yeah melee is weak, and yes i agree orks are gimped, but you cant say you dont have anything because you do, its called melee.

And again, orks are in a really bad place, so of course you are going to get stopped, but thats not because of jink thats because of all the bullgak thats available for marines.


IF anything you just sound like a pissed off person because you codex is crap right now, which hey man, im sorry blame GW for not updating it, its not jinks fault.

 Backspacehacker wrote:
Get in melee? Yeah melee is weak, and yes i agree orks are gimped, but you cant say you dont have anything because you do, its called melee.

And again, orks are in a really bad place, so of course you are going to get stopped, but thats not because of jink thats because of all the bullgak thats available for marines.


IF anything you just sound like a pissed off person because you codex is crap right now, which hey man, im sorry blame GW for not updating it, its not jinks fault.

If you read up, I am actually OK with Jink, I just think certain armies have abused it, like your own army, Dark Angels.

Easy access to 2+ and 3+ Rerollable Jink saves is just stupid. I wouldn't have a problem with Jink when playing Dark Angels if it was still just a 4+ Save without a reroll.

To put that into perspective, my Army can have a single model with a 3+ Rerollable cover save or a 2+ if he turbo boosts or its nightfighting, but to do so I have to field a FW IC (Zhadsnark) Buy a warboss and put him on a bike and give him DLS, that costs roughly 260pts, and it is only for that 1 model.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, to get into CC against bike armies is rather hard and only possible if your opponent is a bit of a moron, or he wants his bikes in CC.

SemperMortis wrote:

 Backspacehacker wrote:
I dont like to be that guy but to be that guy. ITs your own fault if you dont bring more ignore cover weapons to a fight you know is going to have jink, i mean, cmon man, you are kinda asking for it.

I hate to pull this line but, with all the posts in here complaining about jink, it honestly boils down to, Get Good, or Learn how to play.

Im not saying full blown list tailor, but at least think about what you bring.

And to those players who have armies that don't have access to ignores cover weapons like Orks and such? Or are you suggesting I should bring 2-3 Mobs of Burna Boyz and a Burna Bommer whenever I play against Dark Angels?

This is a useless post to help players with because their are armies that don't have easy access to Ignores Cover weapons like SM, Tau and a few others have. Also, if your going to a Tournament you can't list tailor.

So Get good and L2P are yet again terrible advice.

The funniest part is that all SM don't even have easy access to Ignores Cover. Raven Guard detachments using their flavor rules require you to bring the Pinion and a bunch of Scouts(the Sergeants are what grant Ignores Cover) to grant Ignores Cover to units within a certain distance.

Backspacehacker wrote:Get in melee? Yeah melee is weak, and yes i agree orks are gimped, but you cant say you dont have anything because you do, its called melee.

I love how "melee" has become the answer to anything people don't want changed.

And again, orks are in a really bad place, so of course you are going to get stopped, but thats not because of jink thats because of all the bullgak thats available for marines.

IF anything you just sound like a pissed off person because you codex is crap right now, which hey man, im sorry blame GW for not updating it, its not jinks fault.

If anything, you sound like a person who relies on the crutch that is Jink and don't want any changes made that would impact it.

Personally? I think Jink needs the following things to be done to make it less easily abused:
A) Cover Save aspect removed from it. No more stackables. If you want to Jink, you get your 4+ and that's it barring any kind of unique special rule that improves your Jink.
B) Weapons with Skyfire and/or Interceptor need to be changed to match the Imperial Armour Hydra Flak Tank rules.

Auto-Targeting System wrote:The Hydra's twin-linked autocannon ignore any Cover Saves or Cover Save bonuses provided by the Supersonic and Jink special rules, and prevent it from moving Flat Out.

By doing this, you've created a solution that directly impacts Jink without screwing with armies that rely upon Cover Saves to survive.

Yep, as to the part where you say Space Marines don't have easy access to ignores cover, I was referencing FW as well. Since SMs can take those ridiculous Sicarian Battle Tanks and the NON-FW Thunderfire Cannons which have a S5 AP6 Heavy 4 blast Ignores Cover mode which can effectively mutilate things that rely on Cover.

im in agreement imo i want jink to work like this

Can only snap fire after
Only effected by stealth, shrouded, skilled rider.
Precision shots over ride jink
Blasts can not be jinked
Jink can never exceed 3+

this is all in the context of bikes, as for flyers thats a whole other can of worms.

Which for refrence i do have a bike army, but the only reason its there is because i need it to run my actual army, the deathwing. So it turned into a ravenwing deathwing combo i play for fluff not WAAC.

But the fact still remains, orcs are in a crappy place so its not a vary good comparison to use them as the "This army sucks against x" since well, they kinda suck against everything.

which they have access to burna boyz so you can say we dont have ignore covers because you do.


also you cant count FW because the second a FW model/rules hit the table all bets are off because they are their own flavor of cheddar cheese.

SemperMortis wrote:

Yep, as to the part where you say Space Marines don't have easy access to ignores cover, I was referencing FW as well. Since SMs can take those ridiculous Sicarian Battle Tanks and the NON-FW Thunderfire Cannons which have a S5 AP6 Heavy 4 blast Ignores Cover mode which can effectively mutilate things that rely on Cover.

To be fair, those things are going to require you to ally in a CAD in order to take them if playing certain SMs.

Raven Guard, again, can't take any of that stuff as part of their special detachment. They can't even take a Librarian or a Conclave.

 Backspacehacker wrote:
im in agreement imo i want jink to work like this

Can only snap fire after
Only effected by stealth, shrouded, skilled rider.
Precision shots over ride jink
Blasts can not be jinked
Jink can never exceed 3+

this is all in the context of bikes, as for flyers thats a whole other can of worms.

Which for refrence i do have a bike army, but the only reason its there is because i need it to run my actual army, the deathwing. So it turned into a ravenwing deathwing combo i play for fluff not WAAC.

But the fact still remains, orcs are in a crappy place so its not a vary good comparison to use them as the "This army sucks against x" since well, they kinda suck against everything.

which they have access to burna boyz so you can say we dont have ignore covers because you do.


also you cant count FW because the second a FW model/rules hit the table all bets are off because they are their own flavor of cheddar cheese.

I mentioned Burna Boyz if you read up, but they really don't count because THEY WILL NEVER GET CLOSE ENOUGH. A Burna Boy can move 6 and his template can shoot..what? 6 inches? A DA Biker can move 12 and shoot 24, so there is literally no situation in which I can catch you unless you WANT to be caught. And even if you mess up and I do catch you, you still have a 3+ armor save against it so that 1 turn won't do a whole lot before those over priced burnas are killed.

And even if you take out FW, Most SM chapters have access to Thunderfire cannons which are cheap and pretty damn effective across the board.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kanluwen wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:

Yep, as to the part where you say Space Marines don't have easy access to ignores cover, I was referencing FW as well. Since SMs can take those ridiculous Sicarian Battle Tanks and the NON-FW Thunderfire Cannons which have a S5 AP6 Heavy 4 blast Ignores Cover mode which can effectively mutilate things that rely on Cover.

To be fair, those things are going to require you to ally in a CAD in order to take them if playing certain SMs.

Raven Guard, again, can't take any of that stuff as part of their special detachment. They can't even take a Librarian or a Conclave.

True, but it isn't exactly hard to get that in tournaments or in casual play.

 Backspacehacker wrote:
im in agreement imo i want jink to work like this

Can only snap fire after
Only effected by stealth, shrouded, skilled rider.
Precision shots over ride jink
Blasts can not be jinked
Jink can never exceed 3+

None of the above.

Stealth and Shrouded are Cover Saves. Jink shouldn't be a Cover Save. It should literally be called a "Jink Save" and be its own thing, mitigated by things that would mitigate Jink Saves and not Ignores Cover.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Backspacehacker wrote:
im in agreement imo i want jink to work like this

Can only snap fire after
Only effected by stealth, shrouded, skilled rider.
Precision shots over ride jink
Blasts can not be jinked
Jink can never exceed 3+

None of the above.

Stealth and Shrouded are Cover Saves. Jink shouldn't be a Cover Save. It should literally be called a "Jink Save" and be its own thing, mitigated by things that would mitigate Jink Saves and not Ignores Cover.

But at the same time, woundnt it be harder to hit something thats jinking if its harder to see?

Also, there is a thing called cover for burna boys, they also have transports. You should also be thankful you went up against ravenwing bikers, not black knights, black knights only have 18 inches.

Again, your complaining about a power unit for being a power unit, its the same with warp spiders, and knights, they are a cheese unit that do cheesy things. Its not the mechanic, its the abusive unit thats running it.

Wanna know how to beat an army like that? Numbers, the weakness of a bike army is its limit to wounds, you throw enough models and shots at it, they will eventually roll a 1.

 Backspacehacker wrote:


But at the same time, woundnt it be harder to hit something thats jinking if its harder to see?

Also, there is a thing called cover for burna boys, they also have transports. You should also be thankful you went up against ravenwing bikers, not black knights, black knights only have 18 inches.

Again, your complaining about a power unit for being a power unit, its the same with warp spiders, and knights, they are a cheese unit that do cheesy things. Its not the mechanic, its the abusive unit thats running it.

Wanna know how to beat an army like that? Numbers, the weakness of a bike army is its limit to wounds, you throw enough models and shots at it, they will eventually roll a 1.

Let me explain this to you barney Style then if I am putting Burnas in cover they are now slower then that 6in move and will never reach you, so they are effectively out of the game. If I put them in a Trukk, they are now the perfect target for your Plasma weapons and other AP1-2 weapons. Why? Because 10 Burnas in a Trukk with a ram = 195pts If you fire 3 Plasma Guns at rapid fire range (easy to get with a bike) you have 6 shots, 4 hits, 2 pens and a better then 50% chance to have it explode. When that Trukk explodes it will KILL about half the boyz inside, they will take a leadership and Pinning check they will fail one of them and they are either running away or pinned and useless.

And no, I am not complaining about a power unit, Power units have their place. In the context of Jink, I am complaining about how EASY it is to give your bikes a 2+ or 3+ rerollable cover save. And as to your comment about putting out dakka? Orks don't have dakka anymore.

Put orks in cover next to an objective, you just made it so those bikes will never get near you or that objective, you now have a secured objective.

You throw more bodies at them, i have seen it work.

Also you are implying they have not jinked before shooting, so in actuality assuming perfectly average statistics.

3 guns, 6 shots, twin linked. 1 will hit, rerolling the other 5, less then 1 hits but lets assume 1 anyway so 2 hits out of the 6, then you need to roll for pen, then for damage.

Also not taking gets hot into account, also assuming they dont take a nade launcher.

If you have not opened fire on a set of bikes running toward you to try and get them to jink so they snap fire, again, that's not he bikes fault.

Dont get me wrong, the Ravenwing bike start is a power/cheese unit thats not being argued. But again, thats not because of jink, thats because of the bullgak that is the darkshroud giving them all stealth for the 2+.

 Backspacehacker wrote:
Put orks in cover next to an objective, you just made it so those bikes will never get near you or that objective, you now have a secured objective.

You throw more bodies at them, i have seen it work.

Also you are implying they have not jinked before shooting, so in actuality assuming perfectly average statistics.

3 guns, 6 shots, twin linked. 1 will hit, rerolling the other 5, less then 1 hits but lets assume 1 anyway so 2 hits out of the 6, then you need to roll for pen, then for damage.

Also not taking gets hot into account, also assuming they dont take a nade launcher.

If you have not opened fire on a set of bikes running toward you to try and get them to jink so they snap fire, again, that's not he bikes fault.

Dont get me wrong, the Ravenwing bike start is a power/cheese unit thats not being argued. But again, thats not because of jink, thats because of the bullgak that is the darkshroud giving them all stealth for the 2+.

That is what I have been trying to point out this entire time! LMAO

SemperMortis wrote:

 Backspacehacker wrote:
Put orks in cover next to an objective, you just made it so those bikes will never get near you or that objective, you now have a secured objective.

You throw more bodies at them, i have seen it work.

Also you are implying they have not jinked before shooting, so in actuality assuming perfectly average statistics.

3 guns, 6 shots, twin linked. 1 will hit, rerolling the other 5, less then 1 hits but lets assume 1 anyway so 2 hits out of the 6, then you need to roll for pen, then for damage.

Also not taking gets hot into account, also assuming they dont take a nade launcher.

If you have not opened fire on a set of bikes running toward you to try and get them to jink so they snap fire, again, that's not he bikes fault.

Dont get me wrong, the Ravenwing bike start is a power/cheese unit thats not being argued. But again, thats not because of jink, thats because of the bullgak that is the darkshroud giving them all stealth for the 2+.

That is what I have been trying to point out this entire time! LMAO

GLORIOUS DAYS FOR UNDERSTANDINGS!!!

No i feel you on the darkshroud i feel dirty as hell when i use it.
But i dont think its so much and issue with jink, stealth, or shrouded effecting jink, its the ease of availability that makes it OP. Its the same thing with scatter lasers and bikes. Alone neither is over powered, but what makes them over powered is the platform they can be run on, bikes, and how cheap they are.

For what the darkshoud can do for how cheap it is, thats over powered and cheesy. Double, maybe even tripple its price, now we are getting to be more reasonable.

 Backspacehacker wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Backspacehacker wrote:
im in agreement imo i want jink to work like this

Can only snap fire after
Only effected by stealth, shrouded, skilled rider.
Precision shots over ride jink
Blasts can not be jinked
Jink can never exceed 3+

None of the above.

Stealth and Shrouded are Cover Saves. Jink shouldn't be a Cover Save. It should literally be called a "Jink Save" and be its own thing, mitigated by things that would mitigate Jink Saves and not Ignores Cover.

But at the same time, woundnt it be harder to hit something thats jinking if its harder to see?

What part of "Jink shouldn't be a Cover Save" are you missing?

Stealth and Shrouded would be fine on Bikers or Jetbikes IF they no longer had Jink adding into it.