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mchammadad wrote:
First off, independant characters that join other units count as part of that squad for rules purposes, but this comes with it's own exceptions.

Mostly it is to do with kill points and abilities that involve killing a unit. In this regards an IC counts as a separate unit, even if he has joined a squad (Much like how transports are their own unit)

this is even clarified in the "purge the alien" mission which even states that IC's count as a separate unit, and in the Unit part of the BRB.

Actually, they are never listed as being their own unit within a unit in these cases, because the IC has been removed from the unit by the time you are counting up Kill Points.

If you can demonstrate this during Tactical Objectives, please reference the point where it states this.

mchammadad wrote:
Second, about psykers

This one is a tricky thing to comprehend so it can have it's own subsectors of clarification because of how it's worded, but the gist is this.

an IC psyker that has joined a squad that is BoP/BoS still counts his own warp charges to the total warp charge cause of being a separate "unit" cause of the rules, but you could also argue about the IC rules in this instance aswell.

Since the example shown in the generate warp charge states all the units separately, even if they were in the same unit they would count separately for the ruling cause example is giving context of how it should work.

(Also as clarification of this, independant characters are not conferred the special rules of the squad, and vice versa unless the rule in question specifies (like stubborn))

Now, in terms of generating powers, the rule underneath is very specific. no unit can attempt to manifest the same psychic power more than once per psychic phase.

Actually with the Warp Charges make sense if you consider that there are multiple Mastery Levels within the unit, so adding them up makes sense.

BUT, that doesn't mean they are considered their own unit. You have provided nothing which allows them to be treated as a separate unit. You are operating under the premise that it has to be recognized as its own unit in order for things to work your way.

Please provide explicate statements which state that we get to recognize the IC as his own unit, or NOT recognize the IC as his own unit.

 Charistoph wrote:

mchammadad wrote:
First off, independant characters that join other units count as part of that squad for rules purposes, but this comes with it's own exceptions.

Mostly it is to do with kill points and abilities that involve killing a unit. In this regards an IC counts as a separate unit, even if he has joined a squad (Much like how transports are their own unit)

this is even clarified in the "purge the alien" mission which even states that IC's count as a separate unit, and in the Unit part of the BRB.

Actually, they are never listed as being their own unit within a unit in these cases, because the IC has been removed from the unit by the time you are counting up Kill Points.

If you can demonstrate this during Tactical Objectives, please reference the point where it states this.

Units

Warriors tend to band together to fight in squads, teams, sections or similarly named
groups – individuals do not normally go wandering off on their own on the battlefields of
the 41st Millennium for obvious reasons! In Warhammer 40,000, we represent this by
grouping models together into units. A unit usually consists of several models that have
banded together, but a single, powerful model, such as a lone character, a tank, a war
engine or a rampaging monster, is also considered to be a unit in its own right.

CHARACTER TYPES
Most characters are fielded in units from the start of the game, and represent squad
leaders, such as a Space Marine Veteran Sergeant. They have their own profile, but do not
have a separate entry. They are effectively just another trooper in their unit, with
enhanced characteristics and perhaps a wider selection of weapons and wargear choices.
Other characters, such as Mephiston of the Blood Angels, fight as units on their own.
They are either mighty enough, or feared enough by their own kind, that they don’t take
to the battlefield with other warriors. Regardless of their potency, all follow the rules for
characters.

INDEPENDENT CHARACTER
Mighty heroes go where they are needed, charging at the forefront of the most vital
charges and leading their troops to victory.
Independent Characters can join other units. They cannot, however, join units that
contain vehicles or Monstrous Creatures. They can join other Independent Characters,
though, to form a powerful multi-character unit!

Joining and Leaving a Unit

An Independent Character can begin the game already with a unit, either by being
deployed in unit coherency with it or, if the unit is in Reserve, by you informing your
opponent of which unit it has joined.

In order to join a unit, an Independent Character simply has to move so that he is within
the 2" unit coherency distance of a friendly unit at the end of their Movement phase. If
the Independent Character is within 2" of more than one unit at the end of its Movement
phase, the player must declare which unit it is joining. If an Independent Character does
not intend to (or cannot) join a unit, it must (where possible) remain more than 2" away
from it at the end of the Movement phase. This is to make clear whether they have joined
a unit or not. Note that, after an Independent Character joins a unit, that unit can move
no further that Movement phase.

An Independent Character can leave a unit during the Movement phase by moving out of
unit coherency with it. He cannot join or leave during any other phase – once shots are
fired or charges are declared, it is too late to join in or duck out!

An Independent Character cannot leave a unit while either he or the unit is in Reserves,
locked in combat, Falling Back or has Gone to Ground. He cannot join a unit that is in
Reserves, locked in combat or Falling Back. If an Independent Character joins a unit, and
all other models in that unit are killed, he again becomes a unit of one model at the start
of the following phase.

While an Independent Character is part of a unit, he counts as part of the unit for all rules
purposes, though he still follows the rules for characters.

Special Rules
When an Independent Character joins a unit, it might have different special rules from
those of the unit. Unless specified in the rule itself (as in the Stubborn special rule), the
unit’s special rules are not conferred upon the Independent Character, and the
Independent Character’s special rules are not conferred upon the unit. Special rules that
are conferred to the unit only apply for as long as the Independent Character is with
them.

Independent Characters and Ongoing Effects
Sometimes, a unit that an Independent Character has joined will be the target of a
beneficial or harmful effect, such as those bestowed by the Blind special rule, for
example. If the character leaves the unit, both he and the unit continue to be affected by
the effect, so you’ll need to mark the character accordingly.

For example, Farseer Mehiledrin and his unit of Eldar Guardians are set ablaze by a
weapon with the Soul Blaze special rule. If Mehiledrin leaves the unit, both he and the
Guardians will still be ablaze and the ongoing effects of the Soul Blaze rule must be
resolved separately.

Conversely, if an Independent Character joins a unit after that unit has been the target of
an ongoing effect (or joins a unit after himself having been the target of an ongoing
effect) benefits and penalties from that effect are not shared.

I bolded the parts that are relevant to this. Characters that are single model units (a.k.a Independant characters) are still considered units of their own, the IC rule still states that they still follow the character rules, and in the character rules still state single model units

Also i found this in the FAQ

Q: Can killing an Independent Character joined to another
unit, without wiping out the leftover unit, result in First Blood?
A: Yes.

First blood is the following rule:

First Blood
The first unit, of any kind, to be completely destroyed during the game is worth 1 Victory
Point to the opposing player at the end of the game.

If two or more units from opposing forces are destroyed simultaneously (for example, at
the same Initiative step in an Assault phase) then both players get 1 Victory Point (in
addition to any Victory Points from the mission).

This would mean that the IC is in fact still a unit in itself, because of the character rules

mchammadad wrote:
Second, about psykers

This one is a tricky thing to comprehend so it can have it's own subsectors of clarification because of how it's worded, but the gist is this.

an IC psyker that has joined a squad that is BoP/BoS still counts his own warp charges to the total warp charge cause of being a separate "unit" cause of the rules, but you could also argue about the IC rules in this instance aswell.

Since the example shown in the generate warp charge states all the units separately, even if they were in the same unit they would count separately for the ruling cause example is giving context of how it should work.

(Also as clarification of this, independant characters are not conferred the special rules of the squad, and vice versa unless the rule in question specifies (like stubborn))

Now, in terms of generating powers, the rule underneath is very specific. no unit can attempt to manifest the same psychic power more than once per psychic phase.

Actually with the Warp Charges make sense if you consider that there are multiple Mastery Levels within the unit, so adding them up makes sense.

BUT, that doesn't mean they are considered their own unit. You have provided nothing which allows them to be treated as a separate unit. You are operating under the premise that it has to be recognized as its own unit in order for things to work your way.

Please provide explicate statements which state that we get to recognize the IC as his own unit, or NOT recognize the IC as his own unit.

mchammadad wrote:

I bolded the parts that are relevant to this. Characters that are single model units (a.k.a Independant characters) are still considered units of their own, the IC rule still states that they still follow the character rules, and in the character rules still state single model units

Yes, characters that are single model units are considered units of their own.

When that character joins another unit, he is no longer a single-model unit.


You can't have an IC still count as a separate unit as well as a member of the unit he has joined. The rules break down in horrible ways. Not least because any time you try to take an action with the unit containing the character, you're suddenly trying to activate two units at the same time. You just made it impossible to ever move the unit, shoot with it, or charge into combat with it.

IC count as a part of the unit they have joined for all rules purposes. The only exceptions to this are the things (like victory conditions) that are specifically called out as exceptions.

mchammadad wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:
Actually, they are never listed as being their own unit within a unit in these cases, because the IC has been removed from the unit by the time you are counting up Kill Points.

If you can demonstrate this during Tactical Objectives, please reference the point where it states this.

As Insaniak pointed out, nothing you posted allowed it to operate or be recognized as a unit wtihin a unit. Nor did you reference one single point during Tactical Objectives.

But let's get to specifics.

mchammadad wrote:
Units

Warriors tend to band together to fight in squads, teams, sections or similarly named
groups – individuals do not normally go wandering off on their own on the battlefields of
the 41st Millennium for obvious reasons! In Warhammer 40,000, we represent this by
grouping models together into units. A unit usually consists of several models that have
banded together, but a single, powerful model, such as a lone character, a tank, a war
engine or a rampaging monster, is also considered to be a unit in its own right.

You seemed to miss the fact that it is talking about "single, powerful models" in this context. We're talking about a model being recognized as its own group while also being considered in another group of more models. Being part of another group of models usually loses the "single" aspect of the statement.

mchammadad wrote:
CHARACTER TYPES
Most characters are fielded in units from the start of the game, and represent squad
leaders, such as a Space Marine Veteran Sergeant. They have their own profile, but do not
have a separate entry. They are effectively just another trooper in their unit, with
enhanced characteristics and perhaps a wider selection of weapons and wargear choices.
Other characters, such as Mephiston of the Blood Angels, fight as units on their own.
They are either mighty enough, or feared enough by their own kind, that they don’t take
to the battlefield with other warriors. Regardless of their potency, all follow the rules for
characters.

Fighting on their own is not fighting as part of a group. This is not support for recognizing a unit while in another unit.

mchammadad wrote:
INDEPENDENT CHARACTER
Mighty heroes go where they are needed, charging at the forefront of the most vital
charges and leading their troops to victory.
Independent Characters can join other units. They cannot, however, join units that
contain vehicles or Monstrous Creatures. They can join other Independent Characters,
though, to form a powerful multi-character unit!

Joining and Leaving a Unit

An Independent Character can begin the game already with a unit, either by being
deployed in unit coherency with it or, if the unit is in Reserve, by you informing your
opponent of which unit it has joined.

In order to join a unit, an Independent Character simply has to move so that he is within
the 2" unit coherency distance of a friendly unit at the end of their Movement phase. If
the Independent Character is within 2" of more than one unit at the end of its Movement
phase, the player must declare which unit it is joining. If an Independent Character does
not intend to (or cannot) join a unit, it must (where possible) remain more than 2" away
from it at the end of the Movement phase. This is to make clear whether they have joined
a unit or not. Note that, after an Independent Character joins a unit, that unit can move
no further that Movement phase.

An Independent Character can leave a unit during the Movement phase by moving out of
unit coherency with it. He cannot join or leave during any other phase – once shots are
fired or charges are declared, it is too late to join in or duck out!

An Independent Character cannot leave a unit while either he or the unit is in Reserves,
locked in combat, Falling Back or has Gone to Ground. He cannot join a unit that is in
Reserves, locked in combat or Falling Back. If an Independent Character joins a unit, and
all other models in that unit are killed, he again becomes a unit of one model at the start
of the following phase.

While an Independent Character is part of a unit, he counts as part of the unit for all rules
purposes, though he still follows the rules for characters.

Special Rules
When an Independent Character joins a unit, it might have different special rules from
those of the unit. Unless specified in the rule itself (as in the Stubborn special rule), the
unit’s special rules are not conferred upon the Independent Character, and the
Independent Character’s special rules are not conferred upon the unit. Special rules that
are conferred to the unit only apply for as long as the Independent Character is with
them.

Independent Characters and Ongoing Effects
Sometimes, a unit that an Independent Character has joined will be the target of a
beneficial or harmful effect, such as those bestowed by the Blind special rule, for
example. If the character leaves the unit, both he and the unit continue to be affected by
the effect, so you’ll need to mark the character accordingly.

For example, Farseer Mehiledrin and his unit of Eldar Guardians are set ablaze by a
weapon with the Soul Blaze special rule. If Mehiledrin leaves the unit, both he and the
Guardians will still be ablaze and the ongoing effects of the Soul Blaze rule must be
resolved separately.

Conversely, if an Independent Character joins a unit after that unit has been the target of
an ongoing effect (or joins a unit after himself having been the target of an ongoing
effect) benefits and penalties from that effect are not shared.

I bolded the parts that are relevant to this. Characters that are single model units (a.k.a Independant characters) are still considered units of their own, the IC rule still states that they still follow the character rules, and in the character rules still state single model units.

The fact that they start as their own unit means little when we are then to consider him part of another unit as soon as they join. They either operate as part of the unit for all rules purposes, or they don't.

Character rules do absolutely nothing to allow a unit to be singled out from the unit, with the exception of Challenges. If they do, you failed to present that information. It's not supported by anything above. All that is noted is that some Characters do start as separate units, which every single one does (from their datasheets which all have a unit composition of 1 model). However, the Independent Character rules alter that function.

mchammadad wrote:
Also i found this in the FAQ

Q: Can killing an Independent Character joined to another
unit, without wiping out the leftover unit, result in First Blood?
A: Yes.

First blood is the following rule:

First Blood
The first unit, of any kind, to be completely destroyed during the game is worth 1 Victory
Point to the opposing player at the end of the game.

If two or more units from opposing forces are destroyed simultaneously (for example, at
the same Initiative step in an Assault phase) then both players get 1 Victory Point (in
addition to any Victory Points from the mission).

This would mean that the IC is in fact still a unit in itself, because of the character rules.

I bolded and underlined the key point. This isn't processed until the game ends. By which point, any IC killed for First Blood would be considered would already have been considered left the unit by virtue of being removed from Unit Coherency. This has been pointed out several times.

A bit late on this but Jesus with the rules lawyering. If I recall it is stated that all units in the game, if they have a rule or codex that conflicts with a rule in the BRB, then you use the rules explicit for that unit. If an IC rules allow them to do something that conflicts with BRB they are allowed to do that. If you want to shoot at a conscript squad with an IC in it and single him out you cannot UNLESS you have a rule on your shooter that is super ceding the BRB. If you don't then this is simply a case of you being upset about special units. If you want to kill a specific guy in a squad then bring sniper rifles or a vindicare. Who cares if soul burst counts him as a unit? Soul burst says it does. If you are firing lasguns or bolters, they have precision shots? No they dont. So unless you have something that contradicts base rules you can't use that as an excuse to do so because something else has a circumstance that allows it too.

Ceann wrote:
A bit late on this but Jesus with the rules lawyering. If I recall it is stated that all units in the game, if they have a rule or codex that conflicts with a rule in the BRB, then you use the rules explicit for that unit. If an IC rules allow them to do something that conflicts with BRB they are allowed to do that. If you want to shoot at a conscript squad with an IC in it and single him out you cannot UNLESS you have a rule on your shooter that is super ceding the BRB. If you don't then this is simply a case of you being upset about special units. If you want to kill a specific guy in a squad then bring sniper rifles or a vindicare. Who cares if soul burst counts him as a unit? Soul burst says it does. If you are firing lasguns or bolters, they have precision shots? No they dont. So unless you have something that contradicts base rules you can't use that as an excuse to do so because something else has a circumstance that allows it too.

Per the original OP, why can I not identify the IC as his own unit when joined to another? What subsumes that identity so it cannot be tracked?

The line regarding "for all rules purposes" is sufficient for me, but it is not sufficiently literal for a computer processing system.

Well sadly GW doesn't possess the savvy rules structure of say... MTG, where the basics and exceptions are clearly defined and maintained. The issue with the OP is that he is not providing a situational example correctly. He is trying to use basic rules to supercede the IC rules, while a rule precision shots exists that can perform the action he wishes. The shooting rules allow you to shoot at a unit and the wounds allocated to the closest model. The IC rule says that he counts as part of the unit for rules purposes which some try to extrapolate that he is no longer his own unit. However he is a unit on your roster or list with a point value and the consideration for a unit being eliminated seems contingent upon how it is on your list with the exception being things like combat squads that allow you to split a listed unit. So VP to me would be referring to units in that regard.

Ceann wrote:
Well sadly GW doesn't possess the savvy rules structure of say... MTG, where the basics and exceptions are clearly defined and maintained. The issue with the OP is that he is not providing a situational example correctly. He is trying to use basic rules to supercede the IC rules, while a rule precision shots exists that can perform the action he wishes. The shooting rules allow you to shoot at a unit and the wounds allocated to the closest model. The IC rule says that he counts as part of the unit for rules purposes which some try to extrapolate that he is no longer his own unit. However he is a unit on your roster or list with a point value and the consideration for a unit being eliminated seems contingent upon how it is on your list with the exception being things like combat squads that allow you to split a listed unit. So VP to me would be referring to units in that regard.

No, the OP's trying to find justification for the IC rules which would require us to no longer recognize the IC's unit while joined to another. This is not a scenario-based situation, it is something needs to be recognized in the first place.

Being part of a unit does not preclude one from being recognized as their own unit. You yourself said this is "extrapolation", meaning we are making a judgement based on surrounding data and how we need to see the game properly progress.

And the game doesn't recognize the difference between a unit on the roster and a unit on the table, at least until we are told otherwise. Where does the IC rules state otherwise?

I don't really see the contention. Give me a scenario and I can state specifics.

If he joins a unit he counts as a part of that unit for rules purposes. He is still an individual unit but for purposes of leadership tests, shooting, assault etc he is just another man in the squad. I would assert he counts as a unit because he has the IC rule, that rule doesn't go away if he dies, he still has it, so any IC is a unit and credits anything requiring a unit to die, you can't shoot him as an individual because is attached to another unit. So he is always his own unit but once he attaches himself you have to treat him as a member of that unit and you can't do whatever you want to a unit. Just like you can't decide you want to shoot the guy with a plasma gun in the back of his squad.

So if you have an example of a contentious situation. Let's look at that.

Ceann wrote:
I don't really see the contention. Give me a scenario and I can state specifics.

Considering the language involved, the base language has to be either or and ALL scenarios would fall into them unless a special rule specifically states one or the other (of which, I'm not sure one exists).

Ceann wrote:
If he joins a unit he counts as a part of that unit for rules purposes.

Indeed, but do THEY count as part of his unit? There is a follow up question, but it is better addressed next.

Ceann wrote:
He is still an individual unit but for purposes of leadership tests, shooting, assault etc he is just another man in the squad.

Why? Or in other words, what prevents me from being able to recognize a Librarian's unit during ANY of those situations? What states that he is just another member of Vanguard Veteran Squad and cannot also be seen as Librarian unit for these specific circumstances?

Furthermore, what language would cause the Librarian model to be recognized as Librarian Unit when joined to another unit at one of those times you didn't mention?

Ceann wrote:
I would assert he counts as a unit because he has the IC rule, that rule doesn't go away if he dies, he still has it, so any IC is a unit and credits anything requiring a unit to die, you can't shoot him as an individual because is attached to another unit. So he is always his own unit but once he attaches himself you have to treat him as a member of that unit and you can't do whatever you want to a unit. Just like you can't decide you want to shoot the guy with a plasma gun in the back of his squad.

So if you have an example of a contentious situation. Let's look at that.

The thing is, as has been brought up, is that there are people who want the IC to be recognized as his own unit for a variety of reasons. One of which, as has been pointed out, it makes running Librarians in Marine Squads easier to handle, as we can just recognize his Psychic Unit and go forwards. However, by being able to "just recognize" it during this point, why can't I, as your opponent, "just recognize" the Librarian's own Unit when it comes to Shooting and just gun him down without any means of diverting Wounds?

This one had always bugged me. Counting as part of the joined unit doesn't say to me that he loses his own status as a unit. That seems like it would need to be clearly stated for it to be the case. Since it counts for all rules purposes I would agree you can't do much of anything with it as a separate unit (so no targeting it directly for example), but if you are just checking to see the presence of a unit it seems like it would still have that status.

Fhionnuisce wrote:
This one had always bugged me. Counting as part of the joined unit doesn't say to me that he loses his own status as a unit. That seems like it would need to be clearly stated for it to be the case. Since it counts for all rules purposes I would agree you can't do much of anything with it as a separate unit (so no targeting it directly for example), but if you are just checking to see the presence of a unit it seems like it would still have that status.

At which point, if you are recognizing the unit is there when you Shoot, you can directly Shoot the unit. If you are recognizing the unit is there when you Charge, then you are setting up the requirement of a Multiple Charge. And so on. The game doesn't recognize the difference. If you think it does, please provide the quote to support that.

Either the IC's unit is recognized when it is joined to another unit, or it is not until it leaves. The IC rules do not give another option in this regard.

 Charistoph wrote:

Fhionnuisce wrote:
This one had always bugged me. Counting as part of the joined unit doesn't say to me that he loses his own status as a unit. That seems like it would need to be clearly stated for it to be the case. Since it counts for all rules purposes I would agree you can't do much of anything with it as a separate unit (so no targeting it directly for example), but if you are just checking to see the presence of a unit it seems like it would still have that status.

At which point, if you are recognizing the unit is there when you Shoot, you can directly Shoot the unit. If you are recognizing the unit is there when you Charge, then you are setting up the requirement of a Multiple Charge. And so on. The game doesn't recognize the difference. If you think it does, please provide the quote to support that.

Either the IC's unit is recognized when it is joined to another unit, or it is not until it leaves. The IC rules do not give another option in this regard.

Those would be rules purposes for which it clearly states it counts as part of the unit it joined.

When building your army they are organized into units. By virtue of being a line item on the army list an IC is a unit. Counting as X does not mean it stops being Y and no rule removes that status as a unit so even when party of another unit it is one.

By virtue of the"counts as part of the unit" clause if you were to target a unit you can't target the IC separately and when applying unit based effects you can't choose to exclude the IC or only apply to the IC. In practice I see very few situations that it could matter with that clause, but there are rules that make it a unit and no rules that say it is no longer a unit. Off hand I think the only situations I would consider it relevant is counting number of units or checking for existence of said units.

 Charistoph wrote:

Ceann wrote:
I don't really see the contention. Give me a scenario and I can state specifics.

Considering the language involved, the base language has to be either or and ALL scenarios would fall into them unless a special rule specifically states one or the other (of which, I'm not sure one exists).


Why? Or in other words, what prevents me from being able to recognize a Librarian's unit during ANY of those situations? What states that he is just another member of Vanguard Veteran Squad and cannot also be seen as Librarian unit for these specific circumstances?

Furthermore, what language would cause the Librarian model to be recognized as Librarian Unit when joined to another unit at one of those times you didn't mention?

The thing is, as has been brought up, is that there are people who want the IC to be recognized as his own unit for a variety of reasons. One of which, as has been pointed out, it makes running Librarians in Marine Squads easier to handle, as we can just recognize his Psychic Unit and go forwards. However, by being able to "just recognize" it during this point, why can't I, as your opponent, "just recognize" the Librarian's own Unit when it comes to Shooting and just gun him down without any means of diverting Wounds?

Page 166 BRB - While he is a part of the unit for rules purposes HE still follows the rules for characters it doesn't say your opponent gets to decide when he is no longer part of the unit that is determined during the owners movement phase. So if he gets killed by a large blast or something that kills him in the back of a squad and there are rules that say "if a unit dies etc" then those count because HE still follows the rules for characters once a piece is removed that is when it counts as something dying, the rules don't care if he was joined to a unit, died in a flying transport crash or deepstrike mishap off the board.. It is the character rule that counts him as being an individual unit.

Why can't I just pick up my opponents imperial knight and chuck it across the room and remove it play? It doesn't say in the BRB that I can't. We can't start with this premise that if there isnt a rule that says I can't do something then I should be allowed to do it.

There are rules that allow you to select an individual out of a unit, such as precision strikes, or a Psyocculum. You can't just decide your pieces have the rule because you want to shoot an IC. There is not a rule in basic shooting that allows you to "just recognize" an IC who has joined a unit and single him out. When he joins a unit he counts as a member of that unit while still following character specific rules.

It seems you are implying that an IC is somehow breaking certain rules while he is part of a unit and because he is breaking those rules he should always count as a unit and be able to be fired at, at any time. So again, if you have a specific rule you are using as the basis for that argument, then out with it.

Fhionnuisce wrote:Those would be rules purposes for which it clearly states it counts as part of the unit it joined.

Then it counts for ALL rules purposes, not just some. Something that some people seem to forget. That could mean that we do not recognize the IC's unit for a person capable of extrapolation, but it would not for the literal computer. That means it is just an assumption, not RAW.

Fhionnuisce wrote:When building your army they are organized into units. By virtue of being a line item on the army list an IC is a unit. Counting as X does not mean it stops being Y and no rule removes that status as a unit so even when party of another unit it is one.

It is not a question of having it removed, it is a question of recognizing it. There is a significant difference.

It having a datasheet is what makes it a unit. Indeed, for some reason the FAQ team seems to think that if a Codex Techmarine has Servitors, it cannot access its Independent Character rule and leave the Servitors until the Servitors are dead.

Fhionnuisce wrote:By virtue of the"counts as part of the unit" clause if you were to target a unit you can't target the IC separately and when applying unit based effects you can't choose to exclude the IC or only apply to the IC. In practice I see very few situations that it could matter with that clause, but there are rules that make it a unit and no rules that say it is no longer a unit. Off hand I think the only situations I would consider it relevant is counting number of units or checking for existence of said units.

The FAQ group seems to feel differently. They don't think that unit special rules that address "the unit" affect an IC, just the original members of the unit.

It is relevant conversation because we have not been told to ignore the IC's unit. If the IC's unit can be recognized, then I can shoot it just as much as the unit it joins. If it is to be recognized, then I almost certainly MUST Multiple Charge the unit it is in, because I am getting within 1" of an enemy unit.

Ceann wrote:Page 166 BRB - While he is a part of the unit for rules purposes HE still follows the rules for characters it doesn't say your opponent gets to decide when he is no longer part of the unit that is determined during the owners movement phase. So if he gets killed by a large blast or something that kills him in the back of a squad and there are rules that say "if a unit dies etc" then those count because HE still follows the rules for characters once a piece is removed that is when it counts as something dying, the rules don't care if he was joined to a unit, died in a flying transport crash or deepstrike mishap off the board.. It is the character rule that counts him as being an individual unit.

The Character rules do not support such an action. Character is a unit type which applies to models which may or may not be an Independent Character. Indeed, the most common Character you will see on the table are the squad leaders such as Sergeants. These Characters cannot be separated from the unit at any point. The Character rules do not support an IC being recognized (or not) as its own unit when joined to another unit at all. It is only the IC rules which do anything regarding that. Indeed, the IC rules augment the Character rules more than anything.

If you feel differently, please quote the section in the Character rules which provides that information.

Ceann wrote:Why can't I just pick up my opponents imperial knight and chuck it across the room and remove it play? It doesn't say in the BRB that I can't. We can't start with this premise that if there isnt a rule that says I can't do something then I should be allowed to do it.

Which actually supports my questions on this more than counters it. I have asked the question several times in this thread, but no one seems to take it seriously. I know a few people can't seem to grasp that when you already have instructions to do one thing, I can keep doing it until I am told to do otherwise.

I keep asking why I can't recognize the IC's unit. It has been established that they are their own unit. Why do we stop recognizing it? I'm not told to stop recognizing it, so why should I?

If I can still recognize the unit then I can Shoot it. If I Charge the unit the IC is in, I MUST recognize that I will likely be Charging two units at the same time.

Ceann wrote:There are rules that allow you to select an individual out of a unit, such as precision strikes, or a Psyocculum. You can't just decide your pieces have the rule because you want to shoot an IC. There is not a rule in basic shooting that allows you to "just recognize" an IC who has joined a unit and single him out. When he joins a unit he counts as a member of that unit while still following character specific rules.

That is not quite accurate. There are rules which bypass Wound Allocation or change how it operates. This is not the same as selecting an individual model out of the unit. Assuming you can ignore the IC's unit, the only known way to separate an IC from a unit it has joined is to physically separate them. This is most commonly done by Movement, but can be done by casualties (either the IC or the rest of the unit).

But that is assuming we have instructions to ignore the IC's unit (which have yet to be found and provided for). If we can recognize the IC's unit on the table, then it can be Shot. Those are the rules. If I am Shooting at a Librarian unit, there are no other models in that unit, so it means that LOS will not work.

Ceann wrote:It seems you are implying that an IC is somehow breaking certain rules while he is part of a unit and because he is breaking those rules he should always count as a unit and be able to be fired at, at any time. So again, if you have a specific rule you are using as the basis for that argument, then out with it.

An IC IS breaking rules. If they weren't, there would be no need to have their rules. Indeed, the whole point of Special Rules is to break the basic rules. From the introduction to Special Rules:

Whenever a creature or weapon has an ability that breaks or bends one of the main game rules, it is represented by a special rule.

And yes, to bring it back to your statement, "if there isnt a rule that says I can't do something then I should be allowed to do it.".

The IC rules state he is a part of the unit for all rules purposes. Show me the rule that allows you to separate him. He is following special rules that allow him to break basic rules, is says HE follows character rules, not YOU. So you don't get to decide when he is or is not a unit. So show me the rule that allows you to do what you are saying.

The game is only the game while you are following the rules once you decide to start taking actions not in the rules you are no longer playing the game. You are at that point where you are playing with plastic dolls and using our imaginations.

Ceann wrote:
The IC rules state he is a part of the unit for all rules purposes. Show me the rule that allows you to separate him. He is following special rules that allow him to break basic rules, is says HE follows character rules, not YOU. So you don't get to decide when he is or is not a unit. So show me the rule that allows you to do what you are saying.

Already established. The IC starts as a unit of one. Wherein do I being ignoring that unit? Just because he is part of another unit? Does a cop stop being a cop because he is sitting in the congregation of a church? By your assertion, he does.

Character rules do absolutely NOTHING that subordinate a Character to the unit. Everything that makes a Character unique can be processed by the IC while it is an independent model (with the exception of Look Out Sir), so that means nothing in regards to the IC's original unit, recognizing it or not. If you feel otherwise, please reference and quote the passage in the Character rules which does this. I just asked this, and you ignored it. It's been asked before, and it has been ignored or presented with information which means nothing.

Ceann wrote:
The game is only the game while you are following the rules once you decide to start taking actions not in the rules you are no longer playing the game. You are at that point where you are playing with plastic dolls and using our imaginations.

But I am taking actions which are in the rules. I have explained them. You have presented zero evidence, but an assertion based on an assumption.

The actions I am taking are this:
* The IC starts as its own unit.
* It joins a unit and becomes part of that unit.
* We are NOT told to ignore the IC's original unit, therefore the unit exists on the table.
* Because the unit exists on the table, I can Shoot it. Correct? The base rule is my units can Shoot any unit they have in Range and can see.
* - Because the unit doesn't count as part of the IC's unit, Wounds allocated to the IC's unit can only be processed against the IC model.
* Because the unit exists on the table, I MUST recognize it when I go to Charge, which makes it almost required to make it a Multiple Charge due to where ICs are usually positioned in a unit. The base rule is that Multiple Charges are to be declared if I think I will engage another unit during the Primary Assault. If my unit Charges the unit the IC is in, what is the likelihood of engaging the IC? Also keep in mind, that my units can only Charge against units they declare a Charge against. If I do not declare a Charge against the IC's unit, I cannot get within 1" of the IC because there is another unit there.

Now, if you feel that we are not supposed to recognize the IC's unit, where are the instructions to do so? It has been the question from the OP and myself from the beginning, but no one has answered it but with one line that needs to be taken in abstraction in order for it to work.

He becomes a part of that unit for rules purposes. There is no rule that allows a unit to be a unit within a unit which is why once he joins the unit he is allowed to break coherence rules and be within the minimum distance of the rest of the unit.

If he is a part of that unit then you don't have a base rule to single him out. You could even say I want to shoot at your librarian. Cool. You can shoot him at say you are shooting at him. However because he is a part of that unit the wound allocation roles still prevent you from directly applying wounds to him because the player being shot at gets to allocate wounds in the unit towards the direction of fire and remove intervening models first. So even if he possess a dual nature your opponent can simply follow the rules of the unit he joined and circumvent you decision even if it were allowed because there is nothing that says they can't choose to apply wounds that way. So at best all you could propose is that your opponent has the option to let you shoot his IC and tank wounds from anywhere within a unit at their discretion.

Ceann wrote:
He becomes a part of that unit for rules purposes. There is no rule that allows a unit to be a unit within a unit which is why once he joins the unit he is allowed to break coherence rules and be within the minimum distance of the rest of the unit.

There is no rule for ignoring the unit within a unit, either. Without that, I MUST treat it the same as any other unit.

The IC can only break Coherency rule by returning to being his own unit or joining another unit. An IC can only join units it can get within 1" of without Charging. Those are the written IC rules.

Ceann wrote:
If he is a part of that unit then you don't have a base rule to single him out. You could even say I want to shoot at your librarian. Cool. You can shoot him at say you are shooting at him. However because he is a part of that unit the wound allocation roles still prevent you from directly applying wounds to him because the player being shot at gets to allocate wounds in the unit towards the direction of fire and remove intervening models first. So even if he possess a dual nature your opponent can simply follow the rules of the unit he joined and circumvent you decision even if it were allowed because there is nothing that says they can't choose to apply wounds that way. So at best all you could propose is that your opponent has the option to let you shoot his IC and tank wounds from anywhere within a unit at their discretion.

Do not bother answering this again until you can demonstrably prove that I must ignore the IC's unit. Without that, everything you have stated is meaningless since it requires operating under an assumption.

For example, I never said I was singling out a model in a unit, I was identifying the unit that was already there and attacking that. The Librarian model is a part of the Tactical Squad, but the Marines are NOT part of the LIbrarian Unit. The rules for Wound Allocation (which Look Out Sir) only allow for Allocating Wounds against the models in the unit that was attacked. How many models are in a Librarian unit at that point?

He counts as a part of that unit for rules purposes. Meaning the owner of the unit must assign wounds to intervening models. How are you overriding that he counts as a member of that unit as they obviously now count as a part of his unit as well, you assume it is a one way relationship. The tac marines or conscripts or whatever are now a librarian also.

The rule says he counts as part of the unit since he counts as part of the unit wound allocation rules must still be followed. You can't choose to have him not count as part of the unit, his rule says he counts. His special rule supercedes the basic shooting rule so even if you can declare him as your shooting target his rule let's him allocate to the unit and you can't prevent that.

Ceann wrote:
He counts as a part of that unit for rules purposes. Meaning the owner of the unit must assign wounds to intervening models. How are you overriding that he counts as a member of that unit as they obviously now count as a part of his unit as well, you assume it is a one way relationship. The tac marines or conscripts or whatever are now a librarian also.

Try listening. I've repeated it almost every single time.

He counts as member of that unit, but that unit does not count as a member of HIS. I do not assume this is a one way relationship, the rules specifically state it is a one way relationship. You have repeated the statement several times, but apparently do not read it or understand it as it has been written.

By treating the Marines and Conscripts as part of the Librarian unit, you are doing the very exact thing you have preached against, doing something without permission. The Tac Squad or Conscripts are not part of a Librarian unit. ZERO permission is made for this interaction as you are suggesting. The Tac Squad stays a Tac Squad. The Conscript Squad stays a Conscript Squad. There is no permission to do anything else in this manner.

Ceann wrote:
The rule says he counts as part of the unit since he counts as part of the unit wound allocation rules must still be followed. You can't choose to have him not count as part of the unit, his rule says he counts. His special rule supercedes the basic shooting rule so even if you can declare him as your shooting target his rule let's him allocate to the unit and you can't prevent that.

Actually, it doesn't matter if the model counts as part of another unit, if I am shooting a different unit. That is something you do not seem to understand, and it is based in the simple question:

"What tells me or requires me to no longer recognize the IC unit when it joins another?"

The only way for "it counts as a member of the unit for all rules purposes" to work in this manner is if we assume that the Librarian unit counts as gone, as all of its models are now part of another unit. This unit is not removed from the table, but put in standby until the Librarian model is all alone again, be it by Death or Movement. But it still requires the term "assume" to be used, which makes it RAI/HIWPI, not RAW.

"It COUNTS as a member of the unit for all rules purposes"

count - take into account; include.

include - comprise or contain as PART of a WHOLE.

whole - all of something, all of; entire, in an unbroken or undamaged state; in one piece.

"if we assume that the Librarian unit counts as gone, as all of its models are now part of another unit."

No, by the definition of the word count, he is a part of the other unit.
By include he is part of a whole and by whole it is ONE entity.
For ALL rules purposes, so for the purpose of picking a unit to shoot he is the unit he joined.

He is a librarian IN a unit, part of the whole, just like a tac with a plasma gun is a member of the unit.

If you want to have a semantical discussion with Merriam-webster or the Oxford dictionary guys feel free.

So he is still a unit, but you cannot shoot him because he counts as a member of the unit he joined and you cannot choose to shoot at an individual who is part of a unit you can choose to shoot at the unit. Him joining prevents you from shooting at him directly as an individual.

Ceann wrote:
"It COUNTS as a member of the unit for all rules purposes"

count - take into account; include.

include - comprise or contain as PART of a WHOLE.

whole - all of something, all of; entire, in an unbroken or undamaged state; in one piece.

"if we assume that the Librarian unit counts as gone, as all of its models are now part of another unit."

No, by the definition of the word count, he is a part of the other unit.
By include he is part of a whole and by whole it is ONE entity.
For ALL rules purposes, so for the purpose of picking a unit to shoot he is the unit he joined.

He is a librarian IN a unit, part of the whole, just like a tac with a plasma gun is a member of the unit.

If you want to have a semantical discussion with Merriam-webster or the Oxford dictionary guys feel free.

So he is still a unit, but you cannot shoot him because he counts as a member of the unit he joined and you cannot choose to shoot at an individual who is part of a unit you can choose to shoot at the unit. Him joining prevents you from shooting at him directly as an individual.

Now, we also need to look at how GW uses "counts as". It is a very common phrase in 40K rules. It uses it in every case where a change is temporary and may not be permanent. Does it also mean we get to ignore what it was before? In most cases it does.

Let's take Pistols for example, which "count as a close combat Weapon in the Assault Phase". Does a pistol change? Yes. Is it permanent? No. Can we use the Shooting Profile for it while it is doing so? If you say, "yes", then the Librarian unit can still be seen and shot at specifically as I have been saying all along. If you say, "no", then it cannot be used for Overwatch. See the logical conundrum.

I should point out that Librarians can reference two things, a model and a unit. They are not always the same thing. The key point you seem to be missing is the need to be ignoring the Librarian unit. It is only if we consider "counts as" to be replacing its membership from the Librarian unit to membership in the Tactical Squad unit on a temporary basis, that this phrase can work.

Unfortunately, all this still requires some leaps in logic and semantics in order to work. Nothing is clearly written to ignore that Librarian unit. I'm really just pointing that out, and it seems a concept that a few are unwilling to accept just how bad it is.

 Charistoph wrote:


I should point out that Librarians can reference two things, a model and a unit. They are not always the same thing. The key point you seem to be missing is the need to be ignoring the Librarian unit. It is only if we consider "counts as" to be replacing its membership from the Librarian unit to membership in the Tactical Squad unit on a temporary basis, that this phrase can work.

Incorrect. The Librarian never loses his unit status. That status is merely being overridden by the unit status of the Tactical Squad and not replaced. No where do the rules say that the Librarian's unit status is replaced by unit membership in the tactical squad. This is key because any rule that circumvents the 'counts as part of the unit' clause can access the Librarian's unit status which he never lost.

There is no logical conundrum. His special rule for counting as part of a unit supersedes your desire to shoot him as a unit.

Your shooting is a rule.
The rules say you can shoot at a unit.
The Librarian is always a unit.
So you want to shoot him.
Simple right?

When you try to shoot him, it kindly directs you to fire at his unit that he has currently attached himself too because he counts as that unit for all rules purposes.

I want to shoot the librarian, the librarian counts as the tactical squad, I shoot at the tactical squad.

col_impact wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:


I should point out that Librarians can reference two things, a model and a unit. They are not always the same thing. The key point you seem to be missing is the need to be ignoring the Librarian unit. It is only if we consider "counts as" to be replacing its membership from the Librarian unit to membership in the Tactical Squad unit on a temporary basis, that this phrase can work.

Incorrect. The Librarian never loses his unit status. That status is merely being overridden by the unit status of the Tactical Squad and not replaced. No where do the rules say that the Librarian's unit status is replaced by unit membership in the tactical squad. This is key because any rule that circumvents the 'counts as part of the unit' clause can access the Librarian's unit status which he never lost.

I don't see how you differentiate between being overridden and being replaced. If it's overridden it would be replaced for the duration of its being overridden, at least for rules purposes. And it doesn't matter if he retains his unit status outside of rules purposes.

Ceann wrote:
There is no logical conundrum. His special rule for counting as part of a unit supersedes your desire to shoot him as a unit.

Your shooting is a rule.
The rules say you can shoot at a unit.
The Librarian is always a unit.
So you want to shoot him.
Simple right?

When you try to shoot him, it kindly directs you to fire at his unit that he has currently attached himself too because he counts as that unit for all rules purposes.

I want to shoot the librarian, the librarian counts as the tactical squad, I shoot at the tactical squad.

Actually nothing you have presented states that at all. It suggests it, and I have acknowledged that at several points during this thread, but only if we take certain rules in doing things outside of normal parlance, such as "counts as" disallowing a Pistol to fire in Overwatch.

Let's consider it from a literal instruction set. You have two arrays known as Librarian.unit with Librarian.unit(LibrarianModel) and TacticalSquad.unit with TacticalSquad.unit(Sergeant), and nine instances of TacticalSquad.unit(MarineModel). I have rules that say I can Shoot any unit I can see, so I can Shoot Librarian.unit or TacticalSquad.unit.

Then, per the current instruction set, Librarian.unit moves to within 2" of TacticalSquad.unit. A procedure called JoinUnit is brought in to play. JoinUnit then puts a reference to Librarian.Unit(LibrarianModel) in to TacticalSquad.unit, BUT no instructions are made to remove Librarian.Unit(LibrarianModel) from Librarian.Unit, and so Librarian.Unit still carries the exact same Librarian.Unit(LibrarianModel) that existed before. The instances of TacticalSquad.unit(Sergeant) and TacticalSquad.unit(MarineModel) are not added to the Librarian.Unit. Futhermore, JoinUnit, does not drop Librarian.Unit from the available target list.

It is this lack of instruction within the Joining and Leaving a Unit that I am pointing out.

My unit goes to Shoot and still sees Librarian.Unit and TacticalSquad.Unit. I can then instruct the unit to Shoot the Librarian.Unit since it still exists. Since Librarian.Unit only carries one model, Librarian.Unit(LibrarianModel), Wounds directed at that unit cannot be reallocated to any other model.

Shooting is a basic rule. Not a special rule.
When you decide to shoot librarian.unit you are redirected to tactical squad.unit because he counts as tactical squad.unit for all rules purposes. His join unit function is causing this to happen and the effect ceases when he leaves. If anything this is something as simple as you using an url for a page that then redirects you a different named page because that is what it actually resolves too. You are shooting at the librarian but a replacement effect is occurring, it is a valid url to type it has always existed as a url and still does but using his join function is redirecting you. Does the librarian.unit still exist? Yes, you just cant get to it anymore. Your attempt to apply the shooting rule to him is superseded by him counting as tacticalsquad.unit your basic rule is trumped by a special rule.

In the case of pistols it is the same except it directs you count it as a melee weapon but only in the assault phase.

 Charistoph wrote:

Ceann wrote:
He counts as a part of that unit for rules purposes. Meaning the owner of the unit must assign wounds to intervening models. How are you overriding that he counts as a member of that unit as they obviously now count as a part of his unit as well, you assume it is a one way relationship. The tac marines or conscripts or whatever are now a librarian also.

Try listening. I've repeated it almost every single time.

He counts as member of that unit, but that unit does not count as a member of HIS. I do not assume this is a one way relationship, the rules specifically state it is a one way relationship. You have repeated the statement several times, but apparently do not read it or understand it as it has been written.

By treating the Marines and Conscripts as part of the Librarian unit, you are doing the very exact thing you have preached against, doing something without permission. The Tac Squad or Conscripts are not part of a Librarian unit. ZERO permission is made for this interaction as you are suggesting. The Tac Squad stays a Tac Squad. The Conscript Squad stays a Conscript Squad. There is no permission to do anything else in this manner.

Ceann wrote:
The rule says he counts as part of the unit since he counts as part of the unit wound allocation rules must still be followed. You can't choose to have him not count as part of the unit, his rule says he counts. His special rule supercedes the basic shooting rule so even if you can declare him as your shooting target his rule let's him allocate to the unit and you can't prevent that.

Actually, it doesn't matter if the model counts as part of another unit, if I am shooting a different unit. That is something you do not seem to understand, and it is based in the simple question:

"What tells me or requires me to no longer recognize the IC unit when it joins another?"

The only way for "it counts as a member of the unit for all rules purposes" to work in this manner is if we assume that the Librarian unit counts as gone, as all of its models are now part of another unit. This unit is not removed from the table, but put in standby until the Librarian model is all alone again, be it by Death or Movement. But it still requires the term "assume" to be used, which makes it RAI/HIWPI, not RAW.

He loses the independant part of his rules while attached to a unit and is only considered a character with a few additional bonuses (such as LoS on 2+ rather than 4+). Specific codex rules also come into effect such as the triggering of soulburst.

You have already stated that you can´t pick out the Sgt of a unit even though he is a character. The same is now to be considered for the librarian.

Ceann wrote:
Shooting is a basic rule. Not a special rule.

Irrelevant to what you have been misquoting. This counts as part of the unit for ALL rules, not just basic ones. You will not find any support that this only applies to basic rules.

Nor does this change the simple fact that I need a special rule to start ignoring the Librarian's unit, something you don't seem to grasp.

Ceann wrote:
When you decide to shoot librarian.unit you are redirected to tactical squad.unit because he counts as tactical squad.unit for all rules purposes. His join unit function is causing this to happen and the effect ceases when he leaves. If anything this is something as simple as you using an url for a page that then redirects you a different named page because that is what it actually resolves too. You are shooting at the librarian but a replacement effect is occurring, it is a valid url to type it has always existed as a url and still does but using his join function is redirecting you. Does the librarian.unit still exist? Yes, you just cant get to it anymore. Your attempt to apply the shooting rule to him is superseded by him counting as tacticalsquad.unit your basic rule is trumped by a special rule.