Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

The older I get, I find that I am starting to have a harder time hearing/seeing/reading irony from people younger than me. I wonder if this falls into that category. Maybe I'm just not getting their joke?

 Orlanth wrote:

Roadkill Zombie wrote:
The flat earthers did give a reason as to why but you probably aren't going to like it.

It has to do with Satan and God.

The basic idea is that God says the earth is flat somewhere in the bible. Satan uses science to convince the general population that the earth is a spheroid, thus calling God a liar. Flat earthers believe it is a giant cover up because the powers that be (the Rothschilds, illuminati, Rockerfellers, Cern, etc) are in league with Satan and have been tasked with helping him to destroy the souls of mankind. They do this by spreading lies about what the earth is really like, by faking things like the moon landings, by controlling the educational institutions around the world so that they stop believing in God and start believing in fake science, etc.

And that is a very basic reason as to why they believe what they do.

Sorry not so. Judaism hints that the world is round with God encompassing the girdle of the Earth, it never anywhere says the world is flat.
Islam is even clearer on this subject with the earth being a sphere actually mentioned in the Koran, though I don't know the verses pertaining to this.

In any case pre-Christian scence not only showed the world was round but also gave reasonable estimates as to size. This was however mostly forgotten during the dark ages. Medieval Catholicism resisted renaissance thought for its own purpose, though again the East Orthodox did not, as they inherited some science as an unbroken tradition through Constantinople.

The actual cause of medieval flat earthism is simple crude observation, the Earth appears flat to a casual observer. Modern flat earthism is an allusion to a simpler time, which can be appealing, or an excuse for some conspiracy thinking, or a spoof on either.

Lol. Tell that to the flat earthers. I never said I believed in what they believe. I just said what they believe, not that I believe it too.

One thing flat earthers have never been able to reconcile is how Radar works. If the flat earth theory were true I would not have had to worry about the curvature of the earth in my Radar Operator A school classes in the United States Navy.

I would bet money that the average flat earther has not once thought about how radar works...

Roadkill Zombie wrote:

 Orlanth wrote:

Roadkill Zombie wrote:
The flat earthers did give a reason as to why but you probably aren't going to like it.

It has to do with Satan and God.

The basic idea is that God says the earth is flat somewhere in the bible. Satan uses science to convince the general population that the earth is a spheroid, thus calling God a liar. Flat earthers believe it is a giant cover up because the powers that be (the Rothschilds, illuminati, Rockerfellers, Cern, etc) are in league with Satan and have been tasked with helping him to destroy the souls of mankind. They do this by spreading lies about what the earth is really like, by faking things like the moon landings, by controlling the educational institutions around the world so that they stop believing in God and start believing in fake science, etc.

And that is a very basic reason as to why they believe what they do.

Sorry not so. Judaism hints that the world is round with God encompassing the girdle of the Earth, it never anywhere says the world is flat.
Islam is even clearer on this subject with the earth being a sphere actually mentioned in the Koran, though I don't know the verses pertaining to this.

In any case pre-Christian scence not only showed the world was round but also gave reasonable estimates as to size. This was however mostly forgotten during the dark ages. Medieval Catholicism resisted renaissance thought for its own purpose, though again the East Orthodox did not, as they inherited some science as an unbroken tradition through Constantinople.

The actual cause of medieval flat earthism is simple crude observation, the Earth appears flat to a casual observer. Modern flat earthism is an allusion to a simpler time, which can be appealing, or an excuse for some conspiracy thinking, or a spoof on either.

Lol. Tell that to the flat earthers. I never said I believed in what they believe. I just said what they believe, not that I believe it too.

Sadly this is very likely true from your perspective.
The type of Flat Earth theorist I have experience of has a firmer grasp of these matters. Many have a strong suit in history, linguistics and/or theology.

Roadkill Zombie wrote:

One thing flat earthers have never been able to reconcile is how Radar works. If the flat earth theory were true I would not have had to worry about the curvature of the earth in my Radar Operator A school classes in the United States Navy.

Round Earth conspirators make up stories about how the curvature of the earth helps radar. If you look at it its unnecessary, zoning works by bands and this phenomena works just as well on a flat plane as on a curved.
To observe, sonar operates on a similar method to radar, only that the sound medium is reflected between the surface and the seabed. Now the seabed is neither flat not gently curved but highly irregular. Still convergence zones work. Sonar also works at ranges by which is the lies of the evil conspirators were to be believed would make negligible differences in any 'curvature' yet ranging underwater works similar to how it does in air.

To add to this radar components are black box, the operator is told how they work and they are collectively lied to from the top. Just because radar supposedly has amechanic to work in a curved space this is only what the operators are told, all calculations are taken up by the onboard software and hardware, which computes the radar plot without any bonus curvature which doesnt exist, and radar operators are blind to this as they only have access to doctored output.

They can make up stories like that sure, but it kinda falls apart when you demand proof of their accusations, because such proof does not exist. Sure, it's a legitimate way of honing your debating skills, but if you (generic Flat-Earther as opposed to Orlanth the Dakka poster) end up with "you're lying!" as your argument without being able to provide any proof you've really not done that good of a job with it.

 Orlanth wrote:

Roadkill Zombie wrote:

 Orlanth wrote:

Roadkill Zombie wrote:
The flat earthers did give a reason as to why but you probably aren't going to like it.

It has to do with Satan and God.

The basic idea is that God says the earth is flat somewhere in the bible. Satan uses science to convince the general population that the earth is a spheroid, thus calling God a liar. Flat earthers believe it is a giant cover up because the powers that be (the Rothschilds, illuminati, Rockerfellers, Cern, etc) are in league with Satan and have been tasked with helping him to destroy the souls of mankind. They do this by spreading lies about what the earth is really like, by faking things like the moon landings, by controlling the educational institutions around the world so that they stop believing in God and start believing in fake science, etc.

And that is a very basic reason as to why they believe what they do.

Sorry not so. Judaism hints that the world is round with God encompassing the girdle of the Earth, it never anywhere says the world is flat.
Islam is even clearer on this subject with the earth being a sphere actually mentioned in the Koran, though I don't know the verses pertaining to this.

In any case pre-Christian scence not only showed the world was round but also gave reasonable estimates as to size. This was however mostly forgotten during the dark ages. Medieval Catholicism resisted renaissance thought for its own purpose, though again the East Orthodox did not, as they inherited some science as an unbroken tradition through Constantinople.

The actual cause of medieval flat earthism is simple crude observation, the Earth appears flat to a casual observer. Modern flat earthism is an allusion to a simpler time, which can be appealing, or an excuse for some conspiracy thinking, or a spoof on either.

Lol. Tell that to the flat earthers. I never said I believed in what they believe. I just said what they believe, not that I believe it too.

Sadly this is very likely true from your perspective.
The type of Flat Earth theorist I have experience of has a firmer grasp of these matters. Many have a strong suit in history, linguistics and/or theology.

Roadkill Zombie wrote:

One thing flat earthers have never been able to reconcile is how Radar works. If the flat earth theory were true I would not have had to worry about the curvature of the earth in my Radar Operator A school classes in the United States Navy.

Round Earth conspirators make up stories about how the curvature of the earth helps radar. If you look at it its unnecessary, zoning works by bands and this phenomena works just as well on a flat plane as on a curved.
To observe, sonar operates on a similar method to radar, only that the sound medium is reflected between the surface and the seabed. Now the seabed is neither flat not gently curved but highly irregular. Still convergence zones work. Sonar also works at ranges by which is the lies of the evil conspirators were to be believed would make negligible differences in any 'curvature' yet ranging underwater works similar to how it does in air.

To add to this radar components are black box, the operator is told how they work and they are collectively lied to from the top. Just because radar supposedly has amechanic to work in a curved space this is only what the operators are told, all calculations are taken up by the onboard software and hardware, which computes the radar plot without any bonus curvature which doesnt exist, and radar operators are blind to this as they only have access to doctored output.

I'm sorry, but since you said " To add to this radar components are black box, the operator is told how they work and they are collectively lied to from the top. Just because radar supposedly has a mechanic to work in a curved space this is only what the operators are told, all calculations are taken up by the onboard software and hardware which computes the radar plot without any bonus curvature which doesn't exist, and radar operators are blind to this as they only have access to doctored output", then I think it falls to you to prove it. If the information is supposedly not available to a radar operator, then how did you get it?

So Shaq was joking, what about the other players? Is there some kind of secret debating club in the NBA

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
They can make up stories like that sure, but it kinda falls apart when you demand proof of their accusations, because such proof does not exist. Sure, it's a legitimate way of honing your debating skills, but if you (generic Flat-Earther as opposed to Orlanth the Dakka poster) end up with "you're lying!" as your argument without being able to provide any proof you've really not done that good of a job with it.

Conspiracy theory 101- Anything or anybody that disproves the conspiracy is part of the conspiracy.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
They can make up stories like that sure, but it kinda falls apart when you demand proof of their accusations, because such proof does not exist. Sure, it's a legitimate way of honing your debating skills, but if you (generic Flat-Earther as opposed to Orlanth the Dakka poster) end up with "you're lying!" as your argument without being able to provide any proof you've really not done that good of a job with it.

Essentially that is true. But it should never devolve into an ad hominem or blanket denial, it is part of a tongue in cheek global conspiracy mock hysteria which is part of the fun. Used sparingly with some creative science to back it up and it is valid Flat Earth debate. The Flat Earth advocate need not stick to established hard science, that is the other guy's job. After all the conventional answers found in hard sciences have been infiltrated by the round earth conspiracy, free thinking Flat Earthers have to use cunning to make up for the lack of scientific texts as the Truth has long been burned out of the dialectic.

For example.

Roadkill Zombie wrote:

I'm sorry, but since you said " To add to this radar components are black box, the operator is told how they work and they are collectively lied to from the top. Just because radar supposedly has a mechanic to work in a curved space this is only what the operators are told, all calculations are taken up by the onboard software and hardware which computes the radar plot without any bonus curvature which doesn't exist, and radar operators are blind to this as they only have access to doctored output", then I think it falls to you to prove it. If the information is supposedly not available to a radar operator, then how did you get it?

Roadkill Zombie, once you are freed from the mental shackles of the round earth conspiracy it will all become clear. You will see evidence for the conspiracy everywhere, which is why you know its true.

As for my proofs, they were given, radar convergencve and sonar convergence follows identical patterns, you get band of detection at distance based on reflections. However the conspiracy will have to know that the so called urvature of the earth is a major factor of convergence (because they never miss an opportunity to reinforce the conditioning). However atmospheric convergence is relatively stable as ground sky reflection occurs over vast distances and ranges are much larger than sonar.
Now sonar has identicle convergence pattern and has notable range banding to radar, however sonar ranges are so low that any curvature if there was any would not register. Most sonar has convergence zones at approximately 40km which is not enough for any notable curvature. Radar convergence is much further ranged and is supposedly effected by curvature, which it would be over huindreds of kilometres, but the patterns are similar to sonar convergence which only makes sense if they are working to the same model as a much smaller scaled environment. This strongly indicates the earth must be flat, or at least far flatter than the evil secret master's of round earth conspiracy and their unwitting stooges would have you believe..

 Orlanth wrote:
To add to this radar components are black box, the operator is told how they work and they are collectively lied to from the top. Just because radar supposedly has amechanic to work in a curved space this is only what the operators are told, all calculations are taken up by the onboard software and hardware, which computes the radar plot without any bonus curvature which doesnt exist, and radar operators are blind to this as they only have access to doctored output.

And this is why the "flat earth theory as a test of debating skills" idea is such a joke. What you just said is a terrible argument because radar isn't a black box if you understand the math behind it. So, while you might convince an audience with no understanding of how radar/GPS satellites/etc work, you're never going to convince an informed audience of anything. That isn't superior debating skills, it's learning how to be a good con man and lie with charisma.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Orlanth wrote:
The Flat Earth advocate need not stick to hard science, that is the other guy's job.

Like I said, the whole exercise teaches you to be a good con man, nothing more. Why you think teaching people such profoundly dishonest acts is a good thing, I have no idea.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Orlanth wrote:
The Flat Earth advocate need not stick to hard science, that is the other guy's job.

Like I said, the whole exercise teaches you to be a good con man, nothing more. Why you think teaching people such profoundly dishonest acts is a good thing, I have no idea.

You're the one defending this and writing long essays about how advocating flat earth theory is some kind of serious intellectual exercise done by respectable people at serious universities. If you want to sink to the level of posting stupid memes that's your problem, not mine.

GoatboyBeta wrote:
So Shaq was joking, what about the other players? Is there some kind of secret debating club in the NBA

Wouldn't surprise me. The Harlem Globetrotters are quantum physicists after all.

 Peregrine wrote:
You're the one defending this and writing long essays about how advocating flat earth theory is some kind of serious intellectual exercise done by respectable people at serious universities. If you want to sink to the level of posting stupid memes that's your problem, not mine.

It was a calculated response, highlighting two facts mentioned and explained, at length.

1. It has multiple benefits, an intellectual exercise, a counter culture and a piece of fun all in one. Dont take it too seriously, certainly don't get angry or judgemental about it, or apply values to it that are not there.

2. Flat Earthism (of this kind) doesn't work on the internet, you are giving good evidence as to why. Its mental subtleties may well be lost on you.

Flat Earth will not teach anyone to be a 'con man', it doesnt have that dynamic in the milieu it is presented, and the lowbrow variant doesn't have the depth to it. It can provide confidence and aplomb in rhetoric, but the psychology of deception is a separate skill to those exercised here. Debate has its peer forum, rules and standards; what works in say a courtroom doesnt work trying to pretend to be a Nigerian prince or generating interest in knock off goods sold in a pub.

Taking the flat earthers at face value, that means all the objects in the sky are really discs and somehow always showing us their flat side to us? And then not talking about the water not emptying over the side, wait the flat earth is a pizza with a crunchy crust keeping everything inside.

Shaq only responded to the public outcry, secretly he is really a flat-earther

 Jehan-reznor wrote:
Taking the flat earthers at face value, that means all the objects in the sky are really discs and somehow always showing us their flat side to us?

Very likely.

 Jehan-reznor wrote:

And then not talking about the water not emptying over the side, wait the flat earth is a pizza with a crunchy crust keeping everything inside.

Water doesn't escape because Antarctica is actually a wall of ice around the rim of the flat earth.
However due to interference from the conspiracy preventing accurate measure, there is disagreement between free scholars whether the earth is circular or square.

 Peregrine wrote:
You're the one defending this and writing long essays about how advocating flat earth theory is some kind of serious intellectual exercise done by respectable people at serious universities. If you want to sink to the level of posting stupid memes that's your problem, not mine.

Pere, obviously Orlanth's intellect has ascended beyond us mere mortals. Please don't burden his massive intelligence with such simple inquiries.

 jreilly89 wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:
You're the one defending this and writing long essays about how advocating flat earth theory is some kind of serious intellectual exercise done by respectable people at serious universities. If you want to sink to the level of posting stupid memes that's your problem, not mine.

Pere, obviously Orlanth's intellect has ascended beyond us mere mortals. Please don't burden his massive intelligence with such simple inquiries.

Well the intellectual explanation didn't work with some, more words aren't the answer, so I provided a simple captioned picture instead. Sometimes a meme is a good tool to use, it need not be provided randomly of frivolously, and from the context of my approach here I am not trolling the thrwead of lowering the argument.

Skepticism is inherently a good thing. When you combine it with gullibility and or don't keep it under control with a logical mind - this is where flat earth-ism comes from. There is a whole group of people in this world today who literally believe that everything they learned in school was a lie. Anything they hear about that goes against the status quo they ascribe to - and they really believe it. I've talk to many. Pff - such a waste of inquisitive minds.

Flat Earth theory and Creationism in the bloody XXI century. Thank you, 'murica. Really.

 Korinov wrote:
Flat Earth theory and Creationism in the bloody XXI century. Thank you, 'murica. Really.

It is shameful. I blame the 2 party system.

Guys, don't feed the troll. Orlanth is here for only one thing, and it has nothing to do with the OT. He stated his intentions some time ago in the Nuts and Bolts sub forum. Don't fall for it.

 Sarouan wrote:
Guys, don't feed the troll. Orlanth is here for only one thing, and it has nothing to do with the OT. He stated his intentions some time ago in the Nuts and Bolts sub forum. Don't fall for it.

Can I have a link?

 Korinov wrote:
Flat Earth theory and Creationism in the bloody XXI century. Thank you, 'murica. Really.

Many like comparing america to the rise of the nazi's, which is disturbing. I prefer to compare them to the middle east, at one point the arab world was the bastion of science and education til some religious nut said "math is evil" and they turned away from science and education and doubled down on religion. We can see the same thing happening in america, science is evil, global warming is a hoax, evolution is a lie, the earth is flat, and thus america will continue it's fall into obscurity, while whoever embraces science will become the new world power and leader of the free world.

sirlynchmob wrote:

 Korinov wrote:
Flat Earth theory and Creationism in the bloody XXI century. Thank you, 'murica. Really.

Many like comparing america to the rise of the nazi's, which is disturbing. I prefer to compare them to the middle east, at one point the arab world was the bastion of science and education til some religious nut said "math is evil" and they turned away from science and education and doubled down on religion. We can see the same thing happening in america, science is evil, global warming is a hoax, evolution is a lie, the earth is flat, and thus america will continue it's fall into obscurity, while whoever embraces science will become the new world power and leader of the free world.

Science is only evil in America because it's at odds with money. Hence why Global warming is a hoax

Worst of all, Flat Earth theory ruins friendships.
I had a best friend from kindergarten through high school and we grew apart when I went to college. I reconnected with him through Facebook, but after seeing several of his Flat Earth posts and Pro-Trump memes, I just gave up. An Entire childhood friendship gone because he became an illogical lunatic

 jreilly89 wrote:

sirlynchmob wrote:

 Korinov wrote:
Flat Earth theory and Creationism in the bloody XXI century. Thank you, 'murica. Really.

Many like comparing america to the rise of the nazi's, which is disturbing. I prefer to compare them to the middle east, at one point the arab world was the bastion of science and education til some religious nut said "math is evil" and they turned away from science and education and doubled down on religion. We can see the same thing happening in america, science is evil, global warming is a hoax, evolution is a lie, the earth is flat, and thus america will continue it's fall into obscurity, while whoever embraces science will become the new world power and leader of the free world.

Science is only evil in America because it's at odds with money. Hence why Global warming is a hoax

While that is certainly the truth of it, it's only persisted because of how easily the religious right bought into the hoax idea and now blindly defend it. Worse yet they spread the idea that it's a hoax, and create websites and articles to further perpetuate the lie. Climate change shouldn't even be a partisan issue, how did it become a religious one?

I don't understand the idea that the earth appears flat to a casual observer. Anyone who climbs up a tree or hill can see that he can see more of the earth from the top than from the bottom. This would not be the case if the earth was flat.

sirlynchmob wrote:
While that is certainly the truth of it, it's only persisted because of how easily the religious right bought into the hoax idea and now blindly defend it. Worse yet they spread the idea that it's a hoax, and create websites and articles to further perpetuate the lie. Climate change shouldn't even be a partisan issue, how did it become a religious one?

IMO stuff has become so intertwined that its hard for a lot of people to separate them out.

 Cheesecat wrote:

 Sarouan wrote:
Guys, don't feed the troll. Orlanth is here for only one thing, and it has nothing to do with the OT. He stated his intentions some time ago in the Nuts and Bolts sub forum. Don't fall for it.

Can I have a link?

Me too.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kilkrazy wrote:
I don't understand the idea that the earth appears flat to a casual observer. Anyone who climbs up a tree or hill can see that he can see more of the earth from the top than from the bottom. This would not be the case if the earth was flat.

That can be explained by uninterrupted LOS. Climb a hill and you have an uninterrupted vantage point. What works for TLOS in a game works for RL also.

You have to climb quite far to get a (mythical) curvature effect.