Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

First off, you cannot count them as deploying from deep strike by virtue of leaving the gate. The gate is an, at the start of your turn, event and as such cannot deploy anything the turn it deployed as the start of the turn passed when it came down itself. This is noted in the faq.

Secondly, the death marks have a contingent effect, IF they arrive from deep strike reserve, X happens.

The Eternity Gate replaces this by deploying them as though they disembarked. This does not conflict with the death marks because their ability is reactionary, not an absolute.

They are placed as though they disembarked, disembarking and arriving are two different things. The rule does not care about where they were, it cares about how they arrive.

They arrived by disembarking, not arrived from deep strike reserve.

They arrived by disembarking from deep strike reserve.

What Jasksmiles said. They were placed in Reserves and declared to be deep striking, That qualifies them to be arriving from Deep Strike Reserves, no matter how they arrive. That is determined by your declaration when you are put into Reserves, not by how you come out. Ceann, your argument is irrelevant.

Jacksmiles wrote:They arrived by disembarking from deep strike reserve.

doctortom wrote:What Jasksmiles said. They were placed in Reserves and declared to be deep striking, That qualifies them to be arriving from Deep Strike Reserves, no matter how they arrive. That is determined by your declaration when you are put into Reserves, not by how you come out. Ceann, your argument is irrelevant.

Except they are not Disembarking from Deep Strike Reserve. They are Disembarking from a Vehicle which did not Deep Strike.

Arriving from Deep Strike Reserves is Arriving from Reserves by Deep Strike. That's Deep Strike Reserves definition. If you are arrive from Reserves in any other way, it would not be from Deep Strike Reserves.

Okay, looking back at the quote I'll buy it. It does say that you state you arrive from Deep Strike Reserves when you put him in, not that you're saying he's in deep strike reserves. My mistake! The Deathmarks wouldn't count as arriving from Deep Strike Reserves even though they were in Reserves.

Codex supersedes BRB is no longer a valid argument because both have gone the way of the dodo. I hereby coin, "Army Data Sheet supersedes Generals Handbook"!

 Brother Ramses wrote:
Codex supersedes BRB is no longer a valid argument because both have gone the way of the dodo. I hereby coin, "Army Data Sheet supersedes Generals Handbook"!

But what if the General's Handbook is issued later than the data sheet and contains corrections?

Col_Impact, Ceann, and Charistoph all in a thread. Thats a bet to see how long it goes before being locked.

 Akar wrote:

Quickly going to jump in and note that the living Tomb Formation states that it must be placed in Deep Strike Reserve. Without separate instructions on creating this entity, we have to refer to what the BRB instructs us. Which is when placing the unit in Reserve, we must inform them that the Living Tomb will be arriving by Deep Strike. They're still only in Reserve. The only other exception is the Obelisk overrides the need to roll and automatically arrives on turn 2. Since the formation must arrive at the same time, they all auto arrive... from Reserve. (Not Deep Strike Reserve)

I'm pretty sure you have to roll for the Monolith to arrive. Nothing in the rule says the entire formation arrives at the same time.


Furthermore, I find this is a core consideration:

 doctortom wrote:
"When placing the unit in Reserve, you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserves)" (page 162. You are placed in Reserves, but declare you will be deep striking, that is how they define Deep Strike Reserves. You are still in Reserves, and would be eligible for the Monolith's Eternity Gate. As he declared he was going to deep strike when he was put in Reserves, he was in the state they call Deep Strike Reserves - they never refer to it as separate from reserves or ongoing reserves. So, Deathmarks could be pulled from Reserves and deployed via the Monolith's Eternity Gate. As Deathmarks said they were going to deep strike when they were put in, they are arriving from Deep Strike Reserves, whether it is via deep strike or via being deployed by the Eternity Gate rules. The condition for Deep Strike Reserve was determined when they went into Reserves, not when they come out.

Deep Strike Reserves is Reserves with an informed intention of arriving by Deep Strike.

It doesn't say "unit is in deep strike reserves if it eventually arrives by deep strike". The intention of that future event is enough.

Now the method of arrival when that turn comes, doesn't change that intention, the turn it arrives through the Gate, it came from Reserves with an intention to Deep Strike.

Now on turn 2, if my Monolith arrives, and I choose to bring in Deathmarks and I am to consider the unit as disembarking from a transport, that FAQ entry clearly says the deathmarks are to be considered as arriving via Deep Strike, there should be no doubt left about that case.

Still it would also be nice to be able to bring it in on a later turn if I decided not to use it the turn the Monolith arrives or if I have more Deathmark units and manage to hold one back, like in that LVO 2016 list, which is really what the discussion is about.

If the Deathmarks are in Deep Strike Reserve at the start of the turn that you use Eternity Gate then you will satisfy the Hunter from Hyperspace rule.

The Hunters from Hyperspace rule does not care if you arrive by Deep Strike.

The Hunters from Hyperspace rule only cares if you arrived FROM Deep Strike Reserves.

Provided that you placed the Deathmarks in Deep Strike Reserve at the start of the game then Hunter from Hyperspace rule is satisfied when you use Eternity Gate.

Brother Ramses wrote:Codex supersedes BRB is no longer a valid argument because both have gone the way of the dodo. I hereby coin, "Army Data Sheet supersedes Generals Handbook"!

Until the Age of the Emperor book comes out, the 7th Ed BRB and codices are still valid. They aren't dead yet.

Fragile wrote:Col_Impact, Ceann, and Charistoph all in a thread. Thats a bet to see how long it goes before being locked.

Careful. Some may take offense to that.

torblind wrote:Deep Strike Reserves is Reserves with an informed intention of arriving by Deep Strike.

It doesn't say "unit is in deep strike reserves if it eventually arrives by deep strike". The intention of that future event is enough.

Now the method of arrival when that turn comes, doesn't change that intention, the turn it arrives through the Gate, it came from Reserves with an intention to Deep Strike.

Intention is never stated, though. They are in Reserves to arrive by Deep Strike. If they do not arrive by Deep Strike, did they truly arrive from Deep Strike Reserves, or just arrive from Reserves?

torblind wrote:Now on turn 2, if my Monolith arrives, and I choose to bring in Deathmarks and I am to consider the unit as disembarking from a transport, that FAQ entry clearly says the deathmarks are to be considered as arriving via Deep Strike, there should be no doubt left about that case.

Still it would also be nice to be able to bring it in on a later turn if I decided not to use it the turn the Monolith arrives or if I have more Deathmark units and manage to hold one back, like in that LVO 2016 list, which is really what the discussion is about.

This would only work if the Monolith is part of the Living Tomb. It would not work if the Monolith was part of a CAD or Reclamation Legion. The Eternity Gate cannot be used on the same turn the Monolith arrives, Deep Strike or Skimming.

 Charistoph wrote:

Intention is never stated, though. They are in Reserves to arrive by Deep Strike. If they do not arrive by Deep Strike, did they truly arrive from Deep Strike Reserves, or just arrive from Reserves?

The rules for Deep Strike unequivocally put them in Deep Strike Reserves at the beginning of the game. No rule takes them out of there.

So when Eternity Gate is used the Deathmarks are indeed arriving FROM Deep Strike Reserves.

Therefore, Hunters from Hyperspace rule is satisfied.

It is not satisfied. You want them to count as being in the reserve area if your choice but neglect the fact that the gate is not given permission to pull from deep strike reserve.

If you take them out of reserve then they are no longer in deep strike reserve. Additionally you cannot ARRIVE by disembarking.

1. Either deploying strike reserve is or is not a particular sub section of reserves.

2. If it is a sub section then Eternity Gate is not permitted to remove them from deep strike reserve.

3. If it is not a sub section then they never arrive from deep strike reserves, because it doesn't exist.

You want it to exist just enough for it to count for the death marks, then have it not exist to count for the gate, then have it exist again to count for arriving.

You cannot do both.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And you are wrong a rule does put them there, the deep strike special rule, which supersedes a non special rule.

Ceann wrote:
It is not satisfied. You want them to count as being in the reserve area if your choice but neglect the fact that the gate is not given permission to pull from deep strike reserve.

If you take them out of reserve then they are no longer in deep strike reserve. Additionally you cannot ARRIVE by disembarking.

1. Either deploying strike reserve is or is not a particular sub section of reserves.

2. If it is a sub section then Eternity Gate is not permitted to remove them from deep strike reserve.

3. If it is not a sub section then they never arrive from deep strike reserves, because it doesn't exist.

You want it to exist just enough for it to count for the death marks, then have it not exist to count for the gate, then have it exist again to count for arriving.

You cannot do both.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And you are wrong a rule does put them there, the deep strike special rule, which supersedes a non special rule.

The rules haven't changed since the last time I corrected you on this point in this thread.

A unit that is in Deep Strike Reserves is also at the same time in Reserves by definition.

In order for a unit to be able to Deep Strike, all models in the unit must have the Deep Strike special rule and the unit must start the game in Reserve. When placing the unit in Reserve, you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve).

I follow the rules. The Deathmarks are in Deep Strike Reserves at the same time as they are in Reserves. The Eternity Gate causes the Deathmarks to arrive from Deep Strike Reserves. The Eternity Gate explicitly uses the term "arrive".

Hunters from Hyperspace rule is satisfied. The Deathmarks did indeed arrive FROM Deep Strike Reserves. If you have a problem with this then you have a problems with rules that are plainly stated and unequivocal.

Reserves is not deep strike reserves.
It is a sub section of reserves.
If any unit in deep strike reserves was just in reserve you could decide to walk the unit onto the table instead, which you cannot.

Deep strike is a special rule and eternity gate is not, it does not have permission to take units from the sub section deep strike reserve, it only has permission for reserve and on going reserve.

Deep strike is a special rule attached to the death marks, you do not have permission to remove them from deepstrike reserve.

Just like if a unit has relentless you couldn't decide to make it snap fire on your own, you don't have that choice.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The rules for deepstrike dictate how you arrive you cannot arrive via another method.

Ceann wrote:
Reserves is not deep strike reserves.
It is a sub section of reserves.
If any unit in deep strike reserves was just in reserve you could decide to walk the unit onto the table instead, which you cannot.

Deep strike is a special rule and eternity gate is not, it does not have permission to take units from the sub section deep strike reserve, it only has permission for reserve and on going reserve.

Deep strike is a special rule attached to the death marks, you do not have permission to remove them from deepstrike reserve.

Just like if a unit has relentless you couldn't decide to make it snap fire on your own, you don't have that choice.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The rules for deepstrike dictate how you arrive you cannot arrive via another method.

Ceann, you keep arguing against plainly stated rules.

In order for a unit to be able to Deep Strike, all models in the unit must have the Deep Strike special rule and the unit must start the game in Reserve. When placing the unit in Reserve, you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve).

Per the rules, the Deathmark unit is both in Reserves and in Deep Strike Reserves.

If you have a problem with that then I suggest you contact GW.

Meanwhile, I will follow the rules. The Deathmarks are in Deep Strike Reserves at the same time as they are in Reserves. The Eternity Gate causes the Deathmarks to arrive from Deep Strike Reserves. The Eternity Gate explicitly uses the term "arrive".

Hunters from Hyperspace rule is satisfied. The Deathmarks did indeed arrive FROM Deep Strike Reserves. If you have a problem with this then you have a problems with rules that are plainly stated and unequivocal.

No, you keep arguing against plainly stated rules.

Using deepstrike is an entire process involving the special rule deep strike.

Deep strike has a process by which you arrive by.

Eternity Gate is not a special rule, therefore Deep Strike has precedence. If you try to use Eternity Gate then you are breaking the deep strike process, which is a conflict, so the special rule has precedence.

Per the rules, you cannot use Eternity Gate because it conflicts which the deployment process you are told to use for deep strike.

If you have a problem with that then I suggest you contact GW.

Ceann wrote:
No, you keep arguing against plainly stated rules.

Using deepstrike is an entire process involving the special rule deep strike.

Deep strike has a process by which you arrive by.

Eternity Gate is not a special rule, therefore Deep Strike has precedence. If you try to use Eternity Gate then you are breaking the deep strike process, which is a conflict, so the special rule has precedence.

Per the rules, you cannot use Eternity Gate because it conflicts which the deployment process you are told to use for deep strike.

If you have a problem with that then I suggest you contact GW.

I will stick to the rules that tell me that the Deathmarks are in Deep Strike Reserves as well as Reserves.

In order for a unit to be able to Deep Strike, all models in the unit must have the Deep Strike special rule and the unit must start the game in Reserve. When placing the unit in Reserve, you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve).

You are once again on the wrong side of the rules in this argument, Ceann. I am pointing to rules and you aren't pointing to anything. Your argument is therefore invalid.

The Deathmarks are in Deep Strike Reserves (and also Reserves) at the start of the turn. When they "arrive" by way of the Eternity Gate, they will arrive having come FROM Deep Strike Reserves. Hunters from Hyperspace is satisfied.

Them's the rules.

"Them's" not the rules.

Deepstrike has a process, once you start the process you follow it through to its completion.

Eternity gate is not a special rule and is not permitted to break the chain of events of arrival by deepstriking onto the board.

"Arriving by Deep Strike
Roll for the arrival of all Deep Striking units as specified in the rules for Reserves and then deploy them as follows:"

This is the only process you are allowed to use, Eternity Gate is not this process it conflicts with special rule, so you are not permitted to use Eternity Gate.

Ceann, you are caught up in stuff that is simply not relevant to the Hunters from Hyperspace rule.

If the Deathmarks are in Deep Strike Reserve at the start of the turn that you use Eternity Gate then you will satisfy the Hunter from Hyperspace rule.

The Hunters from Hyperspace rule does not care if you arrive by Deep Strike.

The Hunters from Hyperspace rule only cares if you arrived FROM Deep Strike Reserves.

Provided that you placed the Deathmarks in Deep Strike Reserve at the start of the game then Hunter from Hyperspace rule is satisfied when you use Eternity Gate.

Fragile wrote:
Col_Impact, Ceann, and Charistoph all in a thread. Thats a bet to see how long it goes before being locked.

I know you meant this half in jest, but unless someone else has something to add, should we put in a vote to see it locked before we get another 10 pages of C&C circling?

As I scroll up, I see the same sentences over and over.

Since it's a deadlock, I'm locking this thread. If any new perspectives show up, please start a new thread on this topic.