Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 WrentheFaceless wrote:
This whole "Lasgun" thing is being blown way out of proportion.

Nobody is talking about killing Land Raiders with Lasguns or anything. Don't bring that crap here.

Before the Cruddace book, Sergeants could take Lasguns.

That's all that I mentioned here. I like the aesthetic of having a squad full of riflemen.

 frozenwastes wrote:


Posts on Warhammer 40000 facebook might put things in perspective.

Instant field promotion...does that mean a meat shield might get upgraded to a meat shield squad leader for taking the last wound from a HQ or a pawn promotion to anything type deal?

Eh, I am not trusting GW with anything. AOS style morale system plus Marines have already been set at Morale 7..... We take more than a casualty and we remove the squad.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 WrentheFaceless wrote:
This whole "Lasgun" thing is being blown way out of proportion.

Nobody is talking about killing Land Raiders with Lasguns or anything. Don't bring that crap here.

Before the Cruddace book, Sergeants could take Lasguns.

That's all that I mentioned here. I like the aesthetic of having a squad full of riflemen.

The very first post in this thread brought up that gak

No save mod for bolters because it's not needed against guardsman with no saves?

 Rippy wrote:
No save mod for bolters because it's not needed against guardsman with no saves?

This.

I'm convinced that now they have license to redo pretty much everything, the game will be optimised for very expensive *large* armies instead of expensive small ones.

Rock on 8th

 Humble Guardsman wrote:

Jbz` wrote:

I have a feeling that marines will have 2 wounds each to compensate somewhat for being easier to hurt.

I'd be happy with this. I don't play SM but I'd be glad to see their superhuman endurance more accurately represented on the tabletop by more than a mere +1 Toughness.

Not so, based on yesterday's reveal:

 MacPhail wrote:

 Humble Guardsman wrote:

Jbz` wrote:

I have a feeling that marines will have 2 wounds each to compensate somewhat for being easier to hurt.

I'd be happy with this. I don't play SM but I'd be glad to see their superhuman endurance more accurately represented on the tabletop by more than a mere +1 Toughness.

Not so, based on yesterday's reveal:

Spoiler:

But we haven't seen everything else based around that...

 Rippy wrote:

 MacPhail wrote:

 Humble Guardsman wrote:

Jbz` wrote:

I have a feeling that marines will have 2 wounds each to compensate somewhat for being easier to hurt.

I'd be happy with this. I don't play SM but I'd be glad to see their superhuman endurance more accurately represented on the tabletop by more than a mere +1 Toughness.

Not so, based on yesterday's reveal:

Spoiler:

But we haven't seen everything else based around that...

Of course... there's lots of detail to come. Just saying that the basic Marine is clearly a 1-wound model.

 MacPhail wrote:

Of course... there's lots of detail to come. Just saying that the basic Marine is clearly a 1-wound model.

Sorry, I should have read the rest of the context.

 Ankhalagon wrote:

Killing templates is pretty stupid, though.

Killing templates is the best decision ever! I can finally use my footslogging horde without having to meticulously measure 2" between all the 30+ models every damn phase.

Yeah, it takes away a bit of the geeky template placing that we all know and love and rolling extra dice, doing extra measurements to see where it scatters and it did add a bit of realism into a game but it had a devastating effect on the longevity of the game. It doesn't really matter all that much when you play a small army with a bunch of vehicles or monsters. But when you want to field a bit more than that, you're doomed to spend half the game measuring 2" between your dudes.

Another good thing about this is that your leman russ and flamer dudes will finally be able to inflict d6 hits to monsters and vehicles. Making a battlecannon finally good!

And yep, bolters have no rend - that's a surprise. I guess they'll make marines cost appropriately as the playtesters say that most stuff seems to be balanced and they're working hard on making EVERYTHING playable. And i'm pretty sure marines are gona be ok. Don't forget, they have a lot of added stuff like chapter tactics, grenades, atsknf. While guards might be a tad sturdier now than they've been before, and can potentially hurt a landraider, i'm pretty sure that leadership is back. You can no longer simply ignore it by adding a 25 pt character. So, ld checks will take their toll. Get ready for that.

 master of ordinance wrote:
Eh, I am not trusting GW with anything. AOS style morale system plus Marines have already been set at Morale 7..... We take more than a casualty and we remove the squad.

I'm not trusting that you know a thing about AoS.

With the way that Freeguild (closest analogue to IG) heroes and synergies work, unless you're operating them with spectacular incompetence, you basically have to cripple the entire army before they start taking remotely meaningful losses to battleshock.

I'd be happy (as a Renegades player) if Heavy Weapons teams had 2 seperate guardsmen so that everytime one guy gets hit in the chest with a lascannon/krakmissile etc his mate doesn't just look at him and die of a heart attack/panic attack/sunstroke every.damn.time.

Poly Ranger wrote:
I'd be happy (as a Renegades player) if Heavy Weapons teams had 2 separate guardsmen so that every time one guy gets hit in the chest with a lascannon/krakmissile etc his mate doesn't just look at him and die of a heart attack/panic attack/sunstroke every.damn.time.

Can't argue with that.
Though weapon teams will be more durable than they were before because many Str 6+ weapons won't instant death them anymore as they'll likely only do 1 damage(Scatter lasers/Assault cannons etc.)
(Plus actual armour saves from basic weapons!)

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/04/27/new-warhammer-40000-movement/

New movement information.

Running occurs in the movement phase like in AoS. That would mean orders are definitely getting an overhaul because orders occur now at the start of the shooting phase and the Move, Move, Move order that makes you run faster would be useless. Likely going to be a “Hero Phase” like AoS for orders if there are any.

"If you’re in combat at the start of your turn, you can Fall Back by moving away from the enemy. You’ll lose the ability to advance, shoot or charge that turn, and crucially, enemies will be able to shoot at you! This does, however, open up a vast range of tactical options for armies like the Astra Militarum, who will now be able to effectively deploy in firing lines, with each row falling back from any assaults in good order (if they survived) while the unit behind them fires at the attackers. It goes both ways though – if you have a dedicated assault unit that specializes in killing infantry (like Warp Talons) your opponent will find it much harder to pin them down in combat with heavily armoured units for the entire game."

No real comment here, I think what they said here says it all.

 Fafnir wrote:

With the way that Freeguild (closest analogue to IG) heroes and synergies work, unless you're operating them with spectacular incompetence, you basically have to cripple the entire army before they start taking remotely meaningful losses to battleshock.

This is a critical point.

The combination of character auras replacing independent characters joining units, warscroll/dataslate special rules, and command abilities means that unit synergy and placement are a huge part of how an AoS army plays. The big unknown of Command Points adds another layer onto 8th edition's questions.

Basically, extrapolating how a particular army plays from what we know about the core rules is totally meaningless until we get our hands on specific unit rules. Not that that'll stop me, or anyone.

Jbz` wrote:

Poly Ranger wrote:
I'd be happy (as a Renegades player) if Heavy Weapons teams had 2 separate guardsmen so that every time one guy gets hit in the chest with a lascannon/krakmissile etc his mate doesn't just look at him and die of a heart attack/panic attack/sunstroke every.damn.time.

Can't argue with that.
Though weapon teams will be more durable than they were before because many Str 6+ weapons won't instant death them anymore as they'll likely only do 1 damage(Scatter lasers/Assault cannons etc.)
(Plus actual armour saves from basic weapons!)

If its anything like Skaven weapon teams it will be 3 wounds but be able to act normally since it is its own "unit" instead of a whole paragraph describing how they combine like voltron.

One thing I'm actually worried about is how hot shots will be used. Even if it follows what we see now with lascannons that means it will be Str 3 rend-2.....which actually makes it much worse than it is now

 generalchaos34 wrote:
One thing I'm actually worried about is how hot shots will be used. Even if it follows what we see now with lascannons that means it will be Str 3 rend-2.....which actually makes it much worse than it is now

Only if it's the same point value, which is unlikely.

One great plus to the ASM system: it removes the absurd premium on AP3 that infantry weapons have been saddled with for years.

 Formerly Wu wrote:

 generalchaos34 wrote:
One thing I'm actually worried about is how hot shots will be used. Even if it follows what we see now with lascannons that means it will be Str 3 rend-2.....which actually makes it much worse than it is now

Only if it's the same point value, which is unlikely.

One great plus to the ASM system: it removes the absurd premium on AP3 that infantry weapons have been saddled with for years.

Hopefully that will drop the price of Scions by 5 points apiece! If they are the same price and have worse weapons I feel they will make me very very sad

I don't really want cheap Scions, at this this point they might as well not exist, especially with the Vets in the way. I'd rather they have a good AP and stay a bit pricy, to distinguish themselves from the rest of the Guard infantry.

Units are only overpowered if they're undercosted. Guardsmen will most likely get better armour, shooting and melee damage output with the new rules. But even if hypothetically they were twice as powerful as they are now, if they cost twice as much then they don't become any more powerful as an army. In reality they might end up being 15-20% more powerful, and will be costed as befits them.

 Bobthehero wrote:
I don't really cheap Scions, at this this point they might as well not exist, especially with the Vets in the way. I'd rather they have a good AP and stay a bit pricy, to distinguish themselves from the rest of the Guard infantry.

agreed, I hope they get a special rule to help reflect that, and with non scattering deeptrike that will go a long way to making them more powerful. Scions should be special, they even have some real snazzy models and my favorite little gatling truck to reflect that. The real hope is they get easy access to orders and hopefully something along the lines of the old "doctrines" where they would pick infiltrate, deepstrike, or explosives, but of course be more geared to what the new set of rules would be (maybe something that pins if it exists? or causes extra battleshock damage?maybe even something that slows down a target unit "suppressing fire!!")

As an owner (but not proud >< ) of 60 scions, old and new, and 8 Tauroxes, I would like to see this army have some sort of viability

 thegreatchimp wrote:
Units are only overpowered if they're undercosted. Guardsmen will most likely get better armour, shooting and melee damage output with the new rules. But even if hypothetically they were twice as powerful as they are now, if they cost twice as much then they don't become any more powerful as an army. In reality they might end up being 15-20% more powerful, and will be costed as befits them.

Unless there's a massive shake up on prices I doubt AM prices will change too much, they've been hurting for 6th and 7th - Mostly because blob guard works best against melee armies who until early last yearwere only competitive with deathstars that AM blobs just bounced off. What do you call an army that struggles against the only army type it shines against and the army it 'shines' against is mid tier?

I just hope that lasguns, and other small arms fire becomes more powerful. I'm tired of only special weapons mattering.

 Sledgehammer wrote:
I just hope that lasguns, and other small arms fire becomes more powerful. I'm tired of only special weapons mattering.

Lasguns can now hurt anything. GW claims it would take a few hundred shots for Lasguns to pop a Rhino and a few thousand to off a Landraider but it's no longer pointless firing on them.

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

 Sledgehammer wrote:
I just hope that lasguns, and other small arms fire becomes more powerful. I'm tired of only special weapons mattering.

Lasguns can now hurt anything. GW claims it would take a few hundred shots for Lasguns to pop a Rhino and a few thousand to off a Landraider but it's no longer pointless firing on them.

I'm talking about infantry engagements. Rifles should be effective against their intended targets. Each lasgun should not be so weak that it has a 16% chance of killing an ork out in the open. I shouldn't have to focus an entire armies worth of lasguns just to kill a squad that is out in the open and away from cover.

Lasgun effectiveness is essentially a moot point against vehicles. It will take at minimum 36 shots to statically get 1 wound off a vehicle assuming they have a save and are t 5+

 Sledgehammer wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

 Sledgehammer wrote:
I just hope that lasguns, and other small arms fire becomes more powerful. I'm tired of only special weapons mattering.

Lasguns can now hurt anything. GW claims it would take a few hundred shots for Lasguns to pop a Rhino and a few thousand to off a Landraider but it's no longer pointless firing on them.

I'm talking about infantry engagements. Rifles should be effective against their intended targets. Each lasgun should not be so weak that it has a 16% chance of killing an ork out in the open. I shouldn't have to focus an entire armies worth of lasguns just to kill a squad that is out in the open and away from cover.

Lasgun effectiveness is essentially a moot point against vehicles. It will take at minimum 36 shots to statically get 1 wound off a vehicle assuming they have a save and are t 5+

Well in the first place small arms fire should never do anything to vehicles.

But coming back to the Lasgun, you are indeed correct good sir. I for one am fed up with seeing an MEQ squad sit there and tank 50+ Lasguns quite easily, with the only meaningful damage being that done by my specialist weapons.... And then next turn the target moves on as though nothing happened, and half an army did not just open up on it.