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 Lance845 wrote:
It's an extra bit of randomness before you get to even attempt to do anything. Having an entire unit's effectiveness canceled out entirely because you couldn't roll high enough to get into range is crap.

You get an extra inch... ISN'T THAT ENOUGH!!?!!!?!

The not within 1" of a unit your not charging is the problem. Got 5 tac squads, just mix them up as one big blob on the table. Enemy wants to charge you, well they will have to charge all 5 units and take Overwatch from 50 guys.

And 40k has just become the big blob in the middle every game of AoS I've ever seen in progress is.

 Tamereth wrote:
The not within 1" of a unit your not charging is the problem. Got 5 tac squads, just mix them up as one big blob on the table. Enemy wants to charge you, well they will have to charge all 5 units and take Overwatch from 50 guys.

And 40k has just become the big blob in the middle every game of AoS I've ever seen in progress is.

Unless that rule applies to friendly units too.

I still hate the random charge ranges. I actually almost failed a 1" charge once. (Difficult terrain, rolled a 1 and a 2)

 Tamereth wrote:
The not within 1" of a unit your not charging is the problem. Got 5 tac squads, just mix them up as one big blob on the table. Enemy wants to charge you, well they will have to charge all 5 units and take Overwatch from 50 guys.

And 40k has just become the big blob in the middle every game of AoS I've ever seen in progress is.

Ah, the old 'checkerered formation means everyone has cover saves in the open'.....

Nice try

 Tamereth wrote:
The not within 1" of a unit your not charging is the problem. Got 5 tac squads, just mix them up as one big blob on the table. Enemy wants to charge you, well they will have to charge all 5 units and take Overwatch from 50 guys.

And 40k has just become the big blob in the middle every game of AoS I've ever seen in progress is.

Ok, and in that ridiculous example of 50 tac marines:

100 shots, assuming all rapid fire range.
Expected 16.67 hits
Wounding on 4s - 8.34 wounds.
Wounding on 5s - 5.56 wounds.
Wounding on 6s - 2.78 wounds.

So yeah, if you devote half your list to TAC squads, and throw them into the middle of the map, and they all magically get to rapid fire every overwatch, you will have some difficulty charging into that blob if you have a toughness less than 5, or a save worse than 3, and only 1 wound per model.

Of course ignoring that: (a) they won't all rapid fire, and (b) if you charge FIFTY marines, you will still MOST LIKELY BE OK!

Jbz` wrote:
I still hate the random charge ranges. I actually almost failed a 1" charge once. (Difficult terrain, rolled a 1 and a 2)

That's the negativity bias in action

 alanmckenzie wrote:
Not a lot of change.

To be honest, I was really hoping for a M+D6 charge range.

That is a pretty severe constraint on how fast they can make models. A model with a 10 inch movement is going deployment to deployment on a 3+ and every inch of movement increases that range by 2 inches.

People who parrot things like this never really bother to think about what you lose so that whatever 'favorite unit' you're imagining gets to do X cool thing consistently. 2D6 is fine, it creates a better space for them to work in when making the new dataslates.

Just to reiterate, a unit of thunderwolves assuming they keep their current movement are guaranteed to charge 26" every turn without a roll in the proposed system.

Problem is that if you're relying on 12" charges you're already in trouble, where as the threat of a 2" charge roll is always hanging over your head.

If they wanted to keep that element of randomness they could have made it M+1d6, since at least that's SOME level of reliability.

Or they could have, idk, removed pre-measuring if they didn't want people moving 12.1 inches away from assault units.

Every other reveal I was either okay with or at least willing to give a shot up to this point. This is just a straight up disappointment.

You do not know how your command points will influence charging yet. Since it is now its own phase, you will get to spend a command point here, and another during assault itself.

If anything, melee is going to be way too strong in this release.

 Marmatag wrote:
You do not know how your command points will influence charging yet. Since it is now its own phase, you will get to spend a command point here, and another during assault itself.

If anything, melee is going to be way too strong in this release.

Or it was a misspeak. There are plenty of times where they report one thing, and it ends up being another.

 Charistoph wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
You do not know how your command points will influence charging yet. Since it is now its own phase, you will get to spend a command point here, and another during assault itself.

If anything, melee is going to be way too strong in this release.

Or it was a misspeak. There are plenty of times where they report one thing, and it ends up being another.

Fair.

But "social media updates as written," you would get a command point here in addition to the other phases.

 alanmckenzie wrote:

nordsturmking wrote:

 alanmckenzie wrote:
Not a lot of change.

To be honest, I was really hoping for a M+D6 charge range.

That or just M for charge range. I hope Hormagants for example will get a bonus to the roll. Otherwise they would effectively move slower when charging because they will have like 8"-12" M.

Yeah, just to have it tied to the movement stat somehow.

Mostly so that you wouldn't need extra rules like fleet, etc.

Just to pile in, this is a disappointment for me, too. M for movement phase, 2xM for charging would even work in my book.

 Marmatag wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
You do not know how your command points will influence charging yet. Since it is now its own phase, you will get to spend a command point here, and another during assault itself.

If anything, melee is going to be way too strong in this release.

Or it was a misspeak. There are plenty of times where they report one thing, and it ends up being another.

Fair.

But "social media updates as written," you would get a command point here in addition to the other phases.

True, but Charging may be part of the Assault phase entire, so using such a Command Point would entail greater risk/reward calculations.

Heck, maybe defensive or assault grenades will help out. Who can say?

 Charistoph wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
You do not know how your command points will influence charging yet. Since it is now its own phase, you will get to spend a command point here, and another during assault itself.

If anything, melee is going to be way too strong in this release.

Or it was a misspeak. There are plenty of times where they report one thing, and it ends up being another.

Fair.

But "social media updates as written," you would get a command point here in addition to the other phases.

True, but Charging may be part of the Assault phase entire, so using such a Command Point would entail greater risk/reward calculations.

Heck, maybe defensive or assault grenades will help out. Who can say?

It would be neat if assault grenades granted you an extra inch, and defensive grenades subtracted it.

Failing a charge is so frustrating, when you expect or need to make it. Offering the option for command points here would be cool. Maybe not to guarantee a charge, but to add 2 inches or something to the distance rolled.

 Marmatag wrote:
Failing a charge is so frustrating, when you expect or need to make it. Offering the option for command points here would be cool. Maybe not to guarantee a charge, but to add 2 inches or something to the distance rolled.

No argument there. I would like a little randomness involved for excitement, but I like stability, too. When Fantasy went from 2M to M+2D6" for the Charge, it was a mistake. At best, either M+D6" or 2M+D6" would have been the better call. Heck, even 2M+D3" would have been better than that ridiculousness. In 40K, I would actually prefer a M+D3. Enough to be reliable and you can sink it, but enough randomness to make a long shot tempting.

Dwarfs went from Charging 6" to 15" in Fantasy. I'd like to know what Whiskey they were using to Tango that Foxtrot.

Dunno if i saw it or not but was there any limitation for charging after advancing?

 Desubot wrote:
Dunno if i saw it or not but was there any limitation for charging after advancing?

I think that was mentioned when they went over Advancing.

 Charistoph wrote:

 Desubot wrote:
Dunno if i saw it or not but was there any limitation for charging after advancing?

I think that was mentioned when they went over Advancing.

just checked it only mentioned at the expense of shooting. charging may potentially be 3d6 now which is awesome.

and depending on how transportation works might even be WAY better.

I know there is a lot of talk about random charging being bad, but the way I see it is that having a random charge distance is what allows pre-measuring (in a way)

I started 40k/Fantasy in editions that disallowed pre-measuring and it sucked. You had players that became really good at judging distances and therefore had a distinct advantage. And even worse, it often encouraged "cheating", or at the very least created opportunities to argue that other players may be cheating.

Random charges allow GW to keep the risk/reward aspect of charging while also allowing pre-measuring.

However, I will agree that M + D6" would have made the most sense over 2D6", I can at least see how 2D6" is more fair.
Lets pretend for Example:
Orks are M5". That gives them 5+5+D6", or 16" the can move + charge in a turn.
Eldar might be 7", so 7+7+D6" or 20" max.

That would give Eldar a distinct 4" average advantage over Ork, meaning they will almost always get the charge and thus go first. This may be 'fluffy' but it isn't balanced, or fun for the Ork player who most likely relies more on assault than the Eldar.
However if both only roll 2D6", that comes out to only a 2" difference which should have as dramatic an effect.

----------
Also, I hope that "failed" charges do not FORCE you to move forward. I see a lot of people in this thread saying this is good for the assault unit 'to get closer, at least". but that is actually very bad.
Being forced to be closer means enemy units can just shoot you with more guns/rapid fire, etc.
Sure they will be able to do this be falling back out of combat anyway, but at least that forfeits one of their units.
Failing a charge and still moving forward will mean giving them your unit on a silver platter.

-

I feel like I am missing something here. Anyone else worried this is going to turn into another Tau edition?

No more restrictions on overwatch means no one is going to get close to fire warrior/suit armies. Gonna be just Tau on the Table again and that most certainly is not fun.

Rickels wrote:
I feel like I am missing something here. Anyone else worried this is going to turn into another Tau edition?

No more restrictions on overwatch means no one is going to get close to fire warrior/suit armies. Gonna be just Tau on the Table again and that most certainly is not fun.

It all assumes tau still get a lot of there bonuses still. its entirely possible they are going to tweak support fire.

Rickels wrote:
I feel like I am missing something here. Anyone else worried this is going to turn into another Tau edition?

No more restrictions on overwatch means no one is going to get close to fire warrior/suit armies. Gonna be just Tau on the Table again and that most certainly is not fun.

I read a reply by GW on their Facebook post for this. Someone had a similar concern that gunline armies would just dominiate.
GW replied by saying to wait until tomorrow when they go over the Assault phase and I am paraphrasing, but "gunline armies will be a bad idea"

Speculation: This makes me thing that units will be able to pile-in and engage further units I the same turn. So you can have a tough/fast unit hit your lines and just plow through the enemy army in 1 turn. This could be why you get unlimited Overwatch to mitigate that.

-

 Galef wrote:

Rickels wrote:
I feel like I am missing something here. Anyone else worried this is going to turn into another Tau edition?

No more restrictions on overwatch means no one is going to get close to fire warrior/suit armies. Gonna be just Tau on the Table again and that most certainly is not fun.

I read a reply by GW on their Facebook post for this. Someone had a similar concern that gunline armies would just dominiate.
GW replied by saying to wait until tomorrow when they go over the Assault phase and I am paraphrasing, but "gunline armies will be a bad idea"

Speculation: This makes me thing that units will be able to pile-in and engage further units I the same turn. So you can have a tough/fast unit hit your lines and just plow through the enemy army in 1 turn. This could be why you get unlimited Overwatch to mitigate that.

-

Also not sure if model removing will be from the front anymore, AND with many models potentially getting multi wounds, its going to get harder to kill off certain units quickly before assault. me thinks its going to be interesting.

 Galef wrote:

Rickels wrote:
I feel like I am missing something here. Anyone else worried this is going to turn into another Tau edition?

No more restrictions on overwatch means no one is going to get close to fire warrior/suit armies. Gonna be just Tau on the Table again and that most certainly is not fun.

I read a reply by GW on their Facebook post for this. Someone had a similar concern that gunline armies would just dominiate.
GW replied by saying to wait until tomorrow when they go over the Assault phase and I am paraphrasing, but "gunline armies will be a bad idea"

Speculation: This makes me thing that units will be able to pile-in and engage further units I the same turn. So you can have a tough/fast unit hit your lines and just plow through the enemy army in 1 turn. This could be why you get unlimited Overwatch to mitigate that.

-

Or if you sweep one unit you can immediately make a charge against another.

Wow we get an extra inch, lets drink to that

alex0911 wrote:
Wow we get an extra inch, lets drink to that

Depending on your units it may be more than an inch, or less.

Terminators only have a 5" move, so that extra inch is basically lost in their movement phase.
Eldar and Tyranids will likely have 7+" moves and will thus get even more than 1" overall.

Either way, I'm excited.

Funny enough my GF keeps telling me that it would be nice if I had an extra inch....

Plz don't make such off topic jokes.

So much of this depends on stuff we don't know. Let's just w8 and see I guess.

Earth127 wrote:
Plz don't make such off topic jokes.

So much of this depends on stuff we don't know. Let's just w8 and see I guess.

I was kidding... Didn't mean to hurt you...

 kronk wrote:

 alanmckenzie wrote:

nordsturmking wrote:

 alanmckenzie wrote:
Not a lot of change.

To be honest, I was really hoping for a M+D6 charge range.

That or just M for charge range. I hope Hormagants for example will get a bonus to the roll. Otherwise they would effectively move slower when charging because they will have like 8"-12" M.

Yeah, just to have it tied to the movement stat somehow.

Mostly so that you wouldn't need extra rules like fleet, etc.

Just to pile in, this is a disappointment for me, too. M for movement phase, 2xM for charging would even work in my book.

Exactly.