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Martel732 wrote:
Well I'm just repeating what i see in successful guards lists. You are empirically incorrect because i've seen ig lists perform quite well. I've army swapped with ig twice in 7th and had no problem beating drop pod ba.

Guard lists can have a lot of variety, from having a gunline of lascannons and artillery to an armoured battlegroup entirely of leman russ tanks, to a swarm of Chimeras carrying veterans.

An Impy gunline is easy to run. You have no movement phase, except to plug holes in your conscript screen, and just pick targets and focus them down with your artillery until its dead.


Here's the thing with Drop Pods and Deep Strike lists.

With the latter list, I make sure to have a Master of the Fleet in my HQ squad to break up their strikes. The fewer of their units come in together, the better. Then, when they arrive, they have 1000 points versus my 2000 points. They get to shoot at me, but I'm behind an ADL with at least 6" of dudes between my tanks and their guys, so they can't really do much of anything besides burn some conscripts. Then I vaporize them with my tanks and artillery, and re-fill the hole in the conscript screen.

The same applies to Drop Pods, they're just less prone to getting deleted on first turn and can get more on their models down, but they're still half the size of my army.

I know, but when playing itc format, you need mobility. Or even generic maelstrom.

Martel732 wrote:
I know, but when playing itc format, you need mobility. Or even generic maelstrom.

Oddly enough, I needed less mobility in a tournament I played in than in regular maelstrom games. I wasn't playing Guard, though, and I was very mobile, which somewhat undermines the point.

Guard can't get the kind of mobility for maelstrom games, though, even with mechanization. Doesn't mean we can't do well, we're just not nearly fast enough to get every objective laid on our plate.

 master of ordinance wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
IG have a lot of mobility. You just choose not to use it. You won't win in 8th, either. I'm calling it now. BA have more legitimate problems than IG in 7th, and even *I* am not throwing in the towel over OUTFLANK.

What mobility? You mean the tanks that move 6"? Or the Infantry that walk 6"? Or the Cavalry that canter 12" and then die? Or the Storm Troopers whom deepstrike in, do nothing, and then die? Or the Taurox that costs a fair bit, drives up the field and then dies to small arms fire? Or the Chimera that was nerfed heavily and given a massive points hike for reasons?
Or did you mean allies?

You understand nothing about your own list. This won't change in 8th. Look forward to more losing.

I think, my friend, you do not understand the Guard at all. Seeing as you continue to claim the Wyverns are the be all and end all to all problems, and that the Russ should be left aside in favour of them. That and the continued claims that blobs of infantry solve all problems.

It sounds like you're suffering from 5th to 6th/7th shell-shock. Some amasec and bedrest should help settle your nerves.

Hull Points basically killed 5th-ed style mech guard. Which sucks, because I started in 5th ed and love my mech guard! But having 3 wounds tops is a joke for anything you expect to be a front line unit.

Regarding Wyverns: Wyverns are ridiculously under-costed for what they do. Effectively a 4-man mortar team for 75 points, with re-rolls to hit and re-rolls to wound on top? Ka-ching! Purely anti-infantry, sure, but probably the most cost-effective anti-infantry in the codex short of a FRFSRF Prescience Conscript blob (and 48" range plus indirect/barrage are arguably worth the points).

I'm not going to pretend Guard are tournament-competitive in 7th regardless of composition though. We don't have invisible deathstars. We don't have infinite summon spam. We don't have game-breaking formations stuffed full of free models or absurd unique rules (looking at you, Gladius, Riptide Wing, and Optimized Stealth Cadre). The Guard codex is technically solid aside from the curse of Hull Points, their infantry can put enough wounds on the table to make them very difficult to remove, new Orders are good, Divination is absolutely amazing. It's well-balanced, and that's its weakness: it's too well-balanced, it doesn't have cheese.

But that's why I see 8th as possibly the best thing that can happen to the Guard short of rolling back to 5th. We're not getting buffed per se, aside from the change to FRFSRF and our tanks getting more than 3 wounds (as much as I'll miss AV14), but pretty much all the cheese that we don't have is getting an Exterminatus! And that will likely allow our otherwise well-balanced codex to shine.

However, we should probably try to get back to the topic of deep-striking. After all, we haven't answered an important question yet: how will this affect Sly Marbo?

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I know, but when playing itc format, you need mobility. Or even generic maelstrom.

Oddly enough, I needed less mobility in a tournament I played in than in regular maelstrom games. I wasn't playing Guard, though, and I was very mobile, which somewhat undermines the point.

Guard can't get the kind of mobility for maelstrom games, though, even with mechanization. Doesn't mean we can't do well, we're just not nearly fast enough to get every objective laid on our plate.

Chimeras move 18", and Valkyries move 36". Sounds pretty fast to me.

I guess my silly theoretical outflank Buggy Beta Strike list won't be legal for matched play. Not a big loss, as I didn't want to spend the money on 45+ war buggies for a joke list anyway.

I've got two Trygons and their new rules sound fun. I'm excited to see the rules for the Mawloc, although I don't own any of those yet.

 Gloomfang wrote:
Not all units will have the option to just come out of reserve whenever. So it s a gamble with the units that have to check to be deployed

That might be the new version of Deep Strike mishap for some units. Rather than accidentally scattering onto something the unit just never appears on the board and counts as destroyed.

We don't know enough to know how things work now. With no more USRs each unit can be different and not from army to army, but from unit to unit.

We know how the Trygon is supposed to work basically
Then we got Deamons
Y'mal Geanstealers might be Deploy from the nearest piece of terrain still not within 9", but still Assault the turn they show up.
Drop Pods might be 9" + 3" for the disembarking Marines.
Terminators might not all have to show up all in base combat anymore.
'Tnunnler' Pods might make a reappearance leaving a tunnel themselves.
'Scouts' might get to show up along ant edge.

There is still so much we don't know yet.

Martel732 wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I know, but when playing itc format, you need mobility. Or even generic maelstrom.

Oddly enough, I needed less mobility in a tournament I played in than in regular maelstrom games. I wasn't playing Guard, though, and I was very mobile, which somewhat undermines the point.

Guard can't get the kind of mobility for maelstrom games, though, even with mechanization. Doesn't mean we can't do well, we're just not nearly fast enough to get every objective laid on our plate.

Chimeras move 18", and Valkyries move 36". Sounds pretty fast to me.

Valkyries don't score points [because flyer], and Chimerae moving 18" forgo all shooting and all the shooting of their passengers. And 18" still doesn't reach 2 to 3 of the 6 objectives on the board you might have to capture in any turn.

Valkyries absolutely score in hover mode.

Sometimes you have to forgo shooting to win the game. Quit thinking more dakka = victory all the time.

Martel732 wrote:
Valkyries absolutely score in hover mode.

Sometimes you have to forgo shooting to win the game. Quit thinking more dakka = victory all the time.

They're not moving 36" and scoring, though. It's important to score the objective on the turn you're dealt it. If they're hovering, they can move 30. That's ignoring the fact that Valkyries are pretty bad, anyway.

And yes, sometimes you do have to forgo shooting. But a Chimera forgoes it's shooting to move half the range a Jetbikes does [and the Bike still gets to shoot]

Ugh, WTF is this . I thought GW had learned from the idiocy of 7th edition's reserves rules and how they crippled thematic armies like deathwing, IG air cav, etc and would have crippled drop pods if space marines hadn't been given a special snowflake rule to let them ignore the limits. But nope, now we're back to 6th edition, except "normal" units can't even go into reserve at all. My level of interest in 8th is quickly dropping.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Valkyries absolutely score in hover mode.

Sometimes you have to forgo shooting to win the game. Quit thinking more dakka = victory all the time.

They're not moving 36" and scoring, though. It's important to score the objective on the turn you're dealt it.

And yes, sometimes you do have to forgo shooting. But a Chimera forgoes it's shooting to move half the range a Jetbikes does [and the Bike still gets to shoot]

Valkyries can parachute out obj sec units that can score, and yes, we know jetbikes are fething broken. That doesn't mean the IG can't move at all. It IS much harder to win with IG than Eldar, but they can still be middle tier with the right builds. That's all I'm saying.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Peregrine wrote:
Ugh, WTF is this . I thought GW had learned from the idiocy of 7th edition's reserves rules and how they crippled thematic armies like deathwing, IG air cav, etc and would have crippled drop pods if space marines hadn't been given a special snowflake rule to let them ignore the limits. But nope, now we're back to 6th edition, except "normal" units can't even go into reserve at all. My level of interest in 8th is quickly dropping.

I actually like this better, as most battles with outflankers need to have a pinning force to go with them.

Martel732 wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Valkyries absolutely score in hover mode.

Sometimes you have to forgo shooting to win the game. Quit thinking more dakka = victory all the time.

They're not moving 36" and scoring, though. It's important to score the objective on the turn you're dealt it.

And yes, sometimes you do have to forgo shooting. But a Chimera forgoes it's shooting to move half the range a Jetbikes does [and the Bike still gets to shoot]

Valkyries can parachute out obj sec units that can score, and yes, we know jetbikes are fething broken. That doesn't mean the IG can't move at all. It IS much harder to win with IG than Eldar, but they can still be middle tier with the right builds. That's all I'm saying.

I play decidedly middle tier with a gunline that only participates in the psychic and shooting phase. It just comes down to how many objectives can you make your opponent not get, and how many of yours can you get.

Mechvets is among the most effective IG lists I've seen because it had the option to move, but a gunline can be perfectly viable.



Back to the topic of reserves, though, I never really understood the value of reserving something you didn't have to. I took it as a penalty to being able to enter via deep strike or outflank, and if you didn't have deep strike or outflank or weren't going to be using it, start on the board. I like to have all my models around on turn one to maximize my early game firepower and shorten the time it takes for my melee units to get to assault.

Evidently MoO can't replicate your level of success, and I think that for particularly ITC (which is my meta), more movement is generally better. IG just can't gunline as well as Tau, so they need a slightly different niche. The mixture I fear most is mechvets/artillery/primaris diviation/blob/flyers. Very potent build for other mid tier lists to deal with.

Martel732 wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I know, but when playing itc format, you need mobility. Or even generic maelstrom.

Oddly enough, I needed less mobility in a tournament I played in than in regular maelstrom games. I wasn't playing Guard, though, and I was very mobile, which somewhat undermines the point.

Guard can't get the kind of mobility for maelstrom games, though, even with mechanization. Doesn't mean we can't do well, we're just not nearly fast enough to get every objective laid on our plate.

Chimeras move 18", and Valkyries move 36". Sounds pretty fast to me.

Moves 18" and then gets vaporised by anything that sniffs in its direction, costing you 65 points plus upgrades to have a unit isolated in no mans land.
Try again.

I do the same thing with Rhinos. Works fine, especially vs mid tier and worse. So I know it will work with Chimeras, especially if you don't fail keep as many opponents on your front as you can. Guard can knock out enemy transports faster than the enemy can knock out Chimeras usually, so the IG end up with a movement advantage in those cases. Bikes are a different bag, but your blobs have access to fire on my target, which is basically one dead bike squad a turn.

Martel732 wrote:
Evidently MoO can't replicate your level of success, and I think that for particularly ITC (which is my meta), more movement is generally better. IG just can't gunline as well as Tau, so they need a slightly different niche. The mixture I fear most is mechvets/artillery/primaris diviation/blob/flyers. Very potent build for other mid tier lists to deal with.

No. Guard has a stronger gunline. If you make a wall, and hide behind the wall, I'm going to sit here in my own wall just beyond your range and blast you to itty-bitty-bits with my superior long-range firepower. Because, to be honest, the Imperial Guard does have better long range firepower than the Tau. Tau have superior mid-range firepower, but our big guns are cheaper and better than theirs. They have superior mobility, we have superior stationary firepower.

It's good to be able to move if you have to, especially with random objectives, but Imperial Guard gunlines are very viable.

 master of ordinance wrote:

Martel732 wrote:


Chimeras move 18", and Valkyries move 36". Sounds pretty fast to me.

Moves 18" and then gets vaporised by anything that sniffs in its direction, costing you 65 points plus upgrades to have a unit isolated in no mans land.
Try again.

You're being melodramatic. I haven't had problems with Chimera suvivability, at least any more than I have issues with the survivability of my other units.

Martel732 wrote:
I do the same thing with Rhinos. Works fine, especially vs mid tier and worse. So I know it will work with Chimeras, especially if you don't fail keep as many opponents on your front as you can. Guard can knock out enemy transports faster than the enemy can knock out Chimeras usually, so the IG end up with a movement advantage in those cases. Bikes are a different bag, but your blobs have access to fire on my target, which is basically one dead bike squad a turn.

Patently wrong. Light transports are the Imperial Guard's second greatest weakness. Compared to our ability to delete heavy vehicles and our ability to delete all kinds of infantry, mechanized infantry really is a problem for us, right after monstrous creatures.

Rhinos are half the price of a Chimera.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Evidently MoO can't replicate your level of success, and I think that for particularly ITC (which is my meta), more movement is generally better. IG just can't gunline as well as Tau, so they need a slightly different niche. The mixture I fear most is mechvets/artillery/primaris diviation/blob/flyers. Very potent build for other mid tier lists to deal with.

No. Guard has a stronger gunline. If you make a wall, and hide behind the wall, I'm going to sit here in my own wall just beyond your range and blast you to itty-bitty-bits with my superior long-range firepower. Because, to be honest, the Imperial Guard does have better long range firepower than the Tau. Tau have superior mid-range firepower, but our big guns are cheaper and better than theirs. They have superior mobility, we have superior stationary firepower.

It's good to be able to move if you have to, especially with random objectives, but Imperial Guard gunlines are very viable.

Tau gunlines are better because their guns are immortal. Put some markerlights behind a void shield, and they become very tough as well. The best you can get with IG are 4++ blobs and aegis lines. There are a lot of ways around those. IG guns basically don't work on the big suits, so IG loses that one badly, and Tau firepower doesn't degrade as quickly as IG firepower. That's why Tau are higher tier.

Martel732 wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Evidently MoO can't replicate your level of success, and I think that for particularly ITC (which is my meta), more movement is generally better. IG just can't gunline as well as Tau, so they need a slightly different niche. The mixture I fear most is mechvets/artillery/primaris diviation/blob/flyers. Very potent build for other mid tier lists to deal with.

No. Guard has a stronger gunline. If you make a wall, and hide behind the wall, I'm going to sit here in my own wall just beyond your range and blast you to itty-bitty-bits with my superior long-range firepower. Because, to be honest, the Imperial Guard does have better long range firepower than the Tau. Tau have superior mid-range firepower, but our big guns are cheaper and better than theirs. They have superior mobility, we have superior stationary firepower.

It's good to be able to move if you have to, especially with random objectives, but Imperial Guard gunlines are very viable.

Tau gunlines are better because their guns are immortal. Put some markerlights behind a void shield, and they become very tough as well. The best you can get with IG are 4++ blobs and aegis lines. There are a lot of ways around those. IG guns basically don't work on the big suits, so IG loses that one badly, and Tau firepower doesn't degrade as quickly as IG firepower. That's why Tau are higher tier.

Tau are the higher tier because their big suits move and are tough. If mister Riptide and his 2 friends are going to camp cover over there, I'm going to win, through virtue of more firepower today. Every markerlight spent ignoring my barricade is a markerlight not improving his shooting, for firing a destroyer missile, and I only paid 50 points for that barricade. I got far more inches of barricade than he got inches of tideline for 1.5 times the price I paid for the barricade, I've got all the guardsmen I could ever need for a pittance, and the remainder went into tanks, artillery, and heavy weapons. I'm not going to lose the shootout.

Wyverns and Basilisks can scour the gunrigs, and I can Ignore Cover with almost any unit in my army too. I do it with cheaper units, though, so I have more, bigger guns.

But, deep-striking crisis suits, and the Optimized Stealth Cadre, and Riptidewing that Jump-Shoot-Jumps its way forward [because, as a gunline, I only control my 2 tiles of the board], are really where the Tau outshines us. I've played against the Tau a lot, and I've won against the Tau a lot.

I think the shootout is a stalemate, because he's got lots of points wrapped up in move shoot jump suits that you can't get off the table with Imperial heavy weapons. Ie, the Riptide and Stormsurge both being broken as feth dooms you in most games.

OSC is also a super hard counter to IG in general. Deep striking suits are a concern, I suppose, but not as much as immortal guns and OSC. At least your infantry can fire on my target against the OSC.

And the way you've described your IG, you've got very poor board control.

Martel732 wrote:
I think the shootout is a stalemate, because he's got lots of points wrapped up in move shoot jump suits that you can't get off the table with Imperial heavy weapons. Ie, the Riptide and Stormsurge both being broken as feth dooms you in most games.

OSC is also a super hard counter to IG in general. Deep striking suits are a concern, I suppose, but not as much as immortal guns and OSC.

And the way you've described your IG, you've got very poor board control.

But the OSC isn't a gunline, and the move shoot jump suits aren't the gunline. I'm not saying Guard is better than Tau. I'm saying that an Imperial Guard Gunline is better than a Tau Gunline.

Gunline guard has extremely poor board control.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I think the shootout is a stalemate, because he's got lots of points wrapped up in move shoot jump suits that you can't get off the table with Imperial heavy weapons. Ie, the Riptide and Stormsurge both being broken as feth dooms you in most games.

OSC is also a super hard counter to IG in general. Deep striking suits are a concern, I suppose, but not as much as immortal guns and OSC.

And the way you've described your IG, you've got very poor board control.

But the OSC isn't a gunline, and the move shoot jump suits aren't the gunline.

Gunline guard has extremely poor board control. I'm not saying Guard is better than Tau. I'm saying that an Imperial Guard Gunline is better than a Tau Gunline.

OSC and move shoot jump suits are a gunline. But they are a mobile gunline instead of an immobile gun line. And being functionally immortal helps a lot, too.

 MagicJuggler wrote:
So..."half the army on the table" is going to basically force the game back into 6th-ed gunlinehammer with no-man's land and minimum army variation, with Lictorshame, Ambush GSC, Drop Pod armies, even random stuff like Black Legion Speartip armies going the way of the dodo.

...yup, hard pass.

Thats a big jump to conclussions.

 Peregrine wrote:
Ugh, WTF is this . I thought GW had learned from the idiocy of 7th edition's reserves rules and how they crippled thematic armies like deathwing, IG air cav, etc and would have crippled drop pods if space marines hadn't been given a special snowflake rule to let them ignore the limits. But nope, now we're back to 6th edition, except "normal" units can't even go into reserve at all. My level of interest in 8th is quickly dropping.

We don't know this yet buddy.

FWIW, I'm praying that Deathwing will have it's own bespoke rule to override that deployment requirement, and instead half the number of units are auto-dropped in turn 1.

I wonder how disembark rules will interact with the DS rules.

If you DS a transport 9" away from an enemy unit and then disembark the model's you're automatically shaving inches. Even if the disembarked models must be placed B2B with the transport, you're looking at anywhere from 1-2" being shaved off that 9" distance.

And a 7" charge is alot more reliable then a 9" one.

I'm going to bet that everything that deep strikes has to end up more than 9" away. But they are eligible to assault.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
I wonder how disembark rules will interact with the DS rules.

If you DS a transport 9" away from an enemy unit and then disembark the model's you're automatically shaving inches. Even if the disembarked models must be placed B2B with the transport, you're looking at anywhere from 1-2" being shaved off that 9" distance.

And a 7" charge is alot more reliable then a 9" one.

Hopefully it ends up like the Trygon rules, where they must still remain outside the 9" but within X" of the transport.

 Peregrine wrote:
Ugh, WTF is this . I thought GW had learned from the idiocy of 7th edition's reserves rules and how they crippled thematic armies like deathwing, IG air cav, etc and would have crippled drop pods if space marines hadn't been given a special snowflake rule to let them ignore the limits. But nope, now we're back to 6th edition, except "normal" units can't even go into reserve at all. My level of interest in 8th is quickly dropping.

You're still in the mindset of 1 way to play. If you want to play an all drop deathwing army just play narrative game. The rules about starting on the table are only for matched play. Easy-peasy.

ERJAK wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:
Ugh, WTF is this . I thought GW had learned from the idiocy of 7th edition's reserves rules and how they crippled thematic armies like deathwing, IG air cav, etc and would have crippled drop pods if space marines hadn't been given a special snowflake rule to let them ignore the limits. But nope, now we're back to 6th edition, except "normal" units can't even go into reserve at all. My level of interest in 8th is quickly dropping.

You're still in the mindset of 1 way to play. If you want to play an all drop deathwing army just play narrative game. The rules about starting on the table are only for matched play. Easy-peasy.

Issue is how many people will play that way. A lot of people only play Matched in AoS because it's the easiest to balance.

Martel732 wrote:
I'm going to bet that everything that deep strikes has to end up more than 9" away. But they are eligible to assault.

Yeah, it's hard to say, really. Each one is going to be uniquely written, even if copy & paste settles in, and could have different ranges. Drop Pods may have similar Disembarking rules to the Trygon's tunnels, for example.

Flyers may be on the same Reserve schedule, too. I do wonder if the new version of Ongoing Reserves will be affected by the Turn 3 consideration.

Interesting to note that it's basically in-game Infiltrate, too.