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Face it. Imperial Guard is only here to be the bland vanilla punching bag to make every other army feel special.

IronJack wrote:
Face it. Imperial Guard is only here to be the bland vanilla punching bag to make every other army feel special.

That's the Space Marines. They've got bland covered very well.

We just want the stuff that's supposed to make us special to be actually good, since those two characteristics don't necessarily equate.

The thing is they could make guard cool, make plastic Steel Legion kits, update the range and people would flock to it.

Martel732 wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
Also one will notice that the now AV13 Knight and AV14 Russ will have the same T valur of 8, in just about every conceivable respect the Russ is losing out on resiliency relative to other vehicles.

Knights should have been more durable than a Russ anyway.

Thats not my point, I have no problems with a Knight being more durable than a Russ, as you noted, it should be. I have a problem with the Russ, already not known for being terribly hardy, becoming even weaker in a relative sense, unless they are getting a massive relative cost discount. Particularly as the Russ originally started out when introduced being as well or better armored as a Land Raider all around, the Demolisher even moreso.

Especially for what they cost. The predator should never have had AV 11 sides, either. That's not a tank at that point.

To be fair, the Predator is an APC with a turret stuck to it, it was never designed from the ground up as a main battle tank, but rather as a logistically simple fire support option to back up power armored super soldiers. The AV11 made perfect sense from that perspective at least.

Maybe it's weaker in a relative sense, but it's stronger overall. No single shot grav shenanigans, and drop melta has been crumped hard. And no immobilization on a shrub.

Sort of. It's more resilient against Grav, but that was only an issue with loyalist SM's, and just about everything benefits from that. Drop melta will probably be just as effective if not moreso looking at total average number of shots needed to kill, though the one-off random shots wont have a chance to kill a healthy tank anymore Against weapons like Lascannons, these are much more deadly against units like the Russ now, the 7E Leman Russ requires 50% more Lascannon shots to kill on average than the 8E Russ will.

The immobilization thing will be nice, but given how little Russ tanks can and generally do move, it will be extremely minor.

One should not make a tank by putting a turret on an APC.

well, if you're looking to make an MBT, no, but if you're looking for a mobile heavy weapons platform that can be easily produced and supported by existing logistics, and the bulk of your fighting power is in power armored super soldiers, well, then that's fine. The problem was with casting the Predator as an MBT instead of a fire support vehicle.

Going to T7 W11 makes the pred far more playable than it ever has been before.

By the accounts I've seen so far, the Rhino will be T7 W10 so the Predator wont have much of a leg up there unless the Rhino has a worse save than 3+.

 Vaktathi wrote:
Sort of. It's more resilient against Grav, but that was only an issue with loyalist SM's, and just about everything benefits from that. Drop melta will probably be just as effective if not moreso looking at total average number of shots needed to kill, though the one-off random shots wont have a chance to kill a healthy tank anymore Against weapons like Lascannons, these are much more deadly against units like the Russ now, the 7E Leman Russ requires 50% more Lascannon shots to kill on average than the 8E Russ will.

The immobilization thing will be nice, but given how little Russ tanks can and generally do move, it will be extremely minor.

One should not make a tank by putting a turret on an APC.

well, if you're looking to make an MBT, no, but if you're looking for a mobile heavy weapons platform that can be easily produced and supported by existing logistics, and the bulk of your fighting power is in power armored super soldiers, well, then that's fine. The problem was with casting the Predator as an MBT instead of a fire support vehicle.

Going to T7 W11 makes the pred far more playable than it ever has been before.

By the accounts I've seen so far, the Rhino will be T7 W10 so the Predator wont have much of a leg up there unless the Rhino has a worse save than 3+.

Dominions versus Leman Russ Tank, 7e vs. 8e.


A Leman Russ is will be considerably more resilient against meltaguns.

Lascannons aren't particularly more effective in 8e either:

How are you measuring that? I dont have the meltagun stats in front of me, but looking at the average number of BS3 Lascannon shots required to kill a Russ in 7E through HP's you get 18, or 72 required to average 1 "Explodes" result (which is only relevant for the first two HP's as the third kills it either way), whereas in 8E you will only need an average of 12.43 BS3 Lascannons to chew through 12 T8 3+sv wounds. The average number of shots/resources that an opponent will have to allocate to neutralize the threat a Russ tank poses is going to be dramatically less than in 7E.

 Vaktathi wrote:
How are you measuring that? I dont have the meltagun stats in front of me, but looking at the average number of BS3 Lascannon shots required to kill a Russ in 7E through HP's you get 18, or 72 required to average 1 "Explodes" result (which is only relevant for the first two HP's as the third kills it either way), whereas in 8E you will only need an average of 12.43 BS3 Lascannons to chew through 12 T8 3+sv wounds.

I just wrote up a file that executes an attack by a Dominion squad and a Devastator squad against a Leman Russ Tank, then performed 2500 iterations, and then plotted the amount of wounds/HP inflicted on the tank.

Notably, Meltaguns are no longer drastically more effective at tank killing than Lascannons.

Powerfists are completely ineffective against Leman Russes

Powerfists are dramatically less effective, absolutely, but Lascannons should be dramatically more effective and I'm not sure how your math is coming to another conclusion.

Looking at the Lascannon (again because I dont have the melta stats in front of me) it's wounding on 3's instead of shooting for 5's (doubling damage output alone right there). The tank gets a save but only a 6+. 3HP vs 12 Wounds should be about identical againdt a weapon doing an average of 3.5 Wounds vs 1 HP.

As such, there should be no reason why a Lascannon is less effective in 8E aside from the Explodes result chance to plink the tank in one hit, which is 1/36 for any single Lascannon hit in 7E (and again, only relevant for the firet two HP's anyway) and too low to offset that average significantly.

 Vaktathi wrote:
Powerfists are dramatically less effective, absolutely, but Lascannons should be dramatically more effective and I'm not sure how your math is coming to another conclusion.

Looking at the Lascannon (again because I dont have the melta stats in front of me) it's wounding on 3's instead of shooting for 5's (doubling damage output alone right there). The tank gets a save but only a 6+. 3HP vs 12 Wounds should be about identical againdt a weapon doing an average of 3.5 Wounds vs 1 HP.

As such, there should be no reason why a Lascannon is less effective in 8E aside from the Explodes result chance to plink the tank in one hit, which is 1/36 for any single Lascannon hit in 7E (and again, only relevant for the firet two HP's anyway) and too low to offset that average significantly.

Because the average number of wounds inflicted tells you very little, actually.

It's not a bell curve, it's some weird stepped distribution, and a long "tail" skews the average.

And, if you look at the Devastator's graph I plotted, it looks like the average percent of the Leman Russ Destroyed per shooting attack is higher and chance of total failure is lower. Devastators may be marginally better, but not by a whole lot. The distribution is pretty much the same.

It definitely looks like the Russ' durability is going up against most weapons. Other than small arms, but then it's hard to go up from "infinite".

The small arms vulnerability is small enough that it should only be a problem against factions that can *really* throw masses of them at you though... so basically only when facing other Imperial Guard players.

Like I said, I definitely see the exterminator autocannon stealing the spotlight in 8th. It has a good, non-random rate of fire, and the autocannon statline is much stronger under 8e's wound/save system. The Punisher is looking at good times too, since being able to spam 29 S5 shots is going to be a strong trick in 8th. especially if you stick Pask in there for BS3+, re-rolling 1s, and Rending. The Demolisher might be able to get by as an AV weapon by sheer virtue of being S10.

The Battlecannon is in an awkward spot. It's definitely losing efficiency against massed infantry, but it's going to be putting out a lot more wounds than it used to against one-model multi-wound targets like vehicles and MCs. The catch is those targets are getting more wounds to spare, so its overall effectiveness is not necessarily gaining ground (though that does push it a bit more into a specific role).

The Vanquisher cannon is going to continue to be an oddball that almost seems strong on paper but isn't really. Sure, it's a 72" range melta shot. But on the other hand, you basically just have one melta gun as your main cannon and that's kind of underwhelming when you can stick one of those on a Guardsman for much cheaper.

The executioner plasma cannon is potentially great for the same reason the exterminator is looking good: it's going to be tossing lots of S7 shots around with good AP, and S7 is in a really good spot in 8th. The only catch with that is whether Gets Hot will come back to bite it. Like the Punisher though, Pask might be able to make it shine (rather than glow).

The biggest hang-up for Guard though, is going to be weighing it against the option of going Blob Guard. Blob Guard is looking really strong in 8th, their lasguns can wound anything, and universal price increases for vehicles mean that they will be incredibly cost-effective relatively speaking. The changes to AP means they'll be getting more and better saves, and their ability to eat multi-wound weapons with expendable models will make them very hard to sweep off the table. Commissars will also be more effective than ever when every Commissar is effectively a Lord Commissar, though watch out for snipers.

They can split-fire, they can move and fire heavy weapons, FRFSRF got a 33% buff in rapid-fire range, and if their Psyker can put re-rolls to hit, re-rolls to wound, and/or Rending on their lasguns they could become absolutely terrifying. That's going to be the big hang-up for Guard vehicles: can they compete with all the buffs their infantry are getting?

I don't think anything has said orders can't be used on vehicles as well. So they will possibly be able to be multiplied just like guardsmen.

jaxor1983 wrote:
I don't think anything has said orders can't be used on vehicles as well. So they will possibly be able to be multiplied just like guardsmen.

Except this

IG/Astra Militarum has regiment keyword and Orders are given automatically to same regiment kw unit within 6".

I bet you that vehicles won't have the 'regiment' keyword.


Automatically Appended Next Post:


I was actually playing with the thought of having vehicles, since they are no so durable, screen the infantry, and not the other way around
The infantry can be buffed and can take objectives. Gotta keep em protected!

No, they will have the regiment keyword. Because they're part of your regiment. That's just your colors, just like Chapters for space marines, Septs for Tau, or Fleets for Tyranids.

You can't give orders to differently-colored Guardsmen because they're not in your chain of command. But vehicles are fine.

Small arms are not what's wrong with the new Leman Russ.
Mid strenghts weapons are.
An example: a carnifex squad of 3, with twin linked devourers (is it the same name in English ?)couldn't even hurt a LRBT in 7th.
Now, they almost wreck it in a single row,.

Small arms, in deed, won't do much.
But things like autocannons, easy to spam, totally inefficient before, can hurt him on a 5, with an -1 ap IIRC, doing 2 damages.
LRBT are now very vulnerable to this kind of weapons I think.
I need to do the maths to be sure, however

S5-7 weapons are definitely seeing huge indirect buffs with the change to how toughness works. Which is why I've predicted those will be favorite main guns for the Russ. Their threat range is absolutely massive now. As I mentioned in the sniper thread, I REALLY hope camo-netting still works in the open (camo-cloaks for infantry, sadly, have been changed to only work if you're already in cover). If they do, they're going to be a must-take at all times: 2+ saves on our tanks!

If they don't, well they won't be quite as awesome since a +1 from cover already puts them at 2+ assuming you manage to get them into cover. But at least the surplus from camo netting will probably mean that in cover they can get hit by an AP-1 weapon and still get a 2+ save.

Yeah, maybe the offensive output due to the others weapons will make the LRBT an offensive beast.
But with BS3, I doubt it.

It sure would be nice if whoever leaked Sisters of Battle would go ahead and put Imperial Guard out there too. They're in the same book!

ross-128 wrote:It definitely looks like the Russ' durability is going up against most weapons. Other than small arms, but then it's hard to go up from "infinite".

The small arms vulnerability is small enough that it should only be a problem against factions that can *really* throw masses of them at you though... so basically only when facing other Imperial Guard players.

Like I said, I definitely see the exterminator autocannon stealing the spotlight in 8th. It has a good, non-random rate of fire, and the autocannon statline is much stronger under 8e's wound/save system. The Punisher is looking at good times too, since being able to spam 29 S5 shots is going to be a strong trick in 8th. especially if you stick Pask in there for BS3+, re-rolling 1s, and Rending. The Demolisher might be able to get by as an AV weapon by sheer virtue of being S10.

Maybe.

Though the Demolisher definitely ain't going to be doing gak.

ross-128 wrote:The Battlecannon is in an awkward spot. It's definitely losing efficiency against massed infantry, but it's going to be putting out a lot more wounds than it used to against one-model multi-wound targets like vehicles and MCs. The catch is those targets are getting more wounds to spare, so its overall effectiveness is not necessarily gaining ground (though that does push it a bit more into a specific role).

Mathematically, it averages a whole .25 more wounds on a MC than it does now. That's a lot more wounds!

ross-128 wrote:The Vanquisher cannon is going to continue to be an oddball that almost seems strong on paper but isn't really. Sure, it's a 72" range melta shot. But on the other hand, you basically just have one melta gun as your main cannon and that's kind of underwhelming when you can stick one of those on a Guardsman for much cheaper.

The Vanquisher is only good because ABG lets it have Instant Death. We'll have to see what Beast Hunter shells do. Right now, Annihilator will be better than Vanquisher.

ross-128 wrote:The executioner plasma cannon is potentially great for the same reason the exterminator is looking good: it's going to be tossing lots of S7 shots around with good AP, and S7 is in a really good spot in 8th. The only catch with that is whether Gets Hot will come back to bite it. Like the Punisher though, Pask might be able to make it shine (rather than glow).

Maybe. I'm not a massive fan of either, but we'll have to see what get's hot does to the thing.

ross-128 wrote:The biggest hang-up for Guard though, is going to be weighing it against the option of going Blob Guard. Blob Guard is looking really strong in 8th, their lasguns can wound anything, and universal price increases for vehicles mean that they will be incredibly cost-effective relatively speaking. The changes to AP means they'll be getting more and better saves, and their ability to eat multi-wound weapons with expendable models will make them very hard to sweep off the table. Commissars will also be more effective than ever when every Commissar is effectively a Lord Commissar, though watch out for snipers.

They can split-fire, they can move and fire heavy weapons, FRFSRF got a 33% buff in rapid-fire range, and if their Psyker can put re-rolls to hit, re-rolls to wound, and/or Rending on their lasguns they could become absolutely terrifying. That's going to be the big hang-up for Guard vehicles: can they compete with all the buffs their infantry are getting?

 ross-128 wrote:
It sure would be nice if whoever leaked Sisters of Battle would go ahead and put Imperial Guard out there too. They're in the same book!

It was probably a Sisters player who got their hands on it for a limited time. Understandable that they would quickly snap the few pages most important to them, instead of getting the whole book.

From a guy on /tg/ claiming to have the book:

Leman Russ base cost 132
battlecannon 22
heavy bolter 8
thats the base setup. so 162

If the basic Russ really is only 6 points cheaper then it is now I'm going to lose my mind.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
Powerfists are dramatically less effective, absolutely, but Lascannons should be dramatically more effective and I'm not sure how your math is coming to another conclusion.

Looking at the Lascannon (again because I dont have the melta stats in front of me) it's wounding on 3's instead of shooting for 5's (doubling damage output alone right there). The tank gets a save but only a 6+. 3HP vs 12 Wounds should be about identical againdt a weapon doing an average of 3.5 Wounds vs 1 HP.

As such, there should be no reason why a Lascannon is less effective in 8E aside from the Explodes result chance to plink the tank in one hit, which is 1/36 for any single Lascannon hit in 7E (and again, only relevant for the firet two HP's anyway) and too low to offset that average significantly.

Because the average number of wounds inflicted tells you very little, actually.

It's not a bell curve, it's some weird stepped distribution, and a long "tail" skews the average.

And, if you look at the Devastator's graph I plotted, it looks like the average percent of the Leman Russ Destroyed per shooting attack is higher and chance of total failure is lower. Devastators may be marginally better, but not by a whole lot. The distribution is pretty much the same.

Apologies if I misread something there on the Lascannons, but they should be notably more effective, doubling the wound output (wounding on 3's instead of 5's), while keeping the "wounds" almost the same when compared with the average Damage (multiplying wounds vs HP by 4 and Damage vs HP lost by an average of 3.5) and only a 1/6 chance to save, which should fundamentally result in notably, not marginally, higher kill rates with that weapon.


Given the flat variability of D6 rolls (as opposed to something like 2d6 or 2d3) and the static number of HP's and Wounds in each example, the variance shouldn't be all *that* weird.

I'll see if I can try it once I'm home from work and not fiddling on a phone, I can look up the melta stats then too. Hrm...

Melta is strength 8 pen5 d6 damage, I believe, re-rolling damage take the higher at half-range.

 SeraphimXIX wrote:
From a guy on /tg/ claiming to have the book:

Leman Russ base cost 132
battlecannon 22
heavy bolter 8
thats the base setup. so 162

If the basic Russ really is only 6 points cheaper then it is now I'm going to lose my mind.

Thanks, but can you poke him for more?

The pricing seems really fair, it's the chasis that I think is too expensive.

 SeraphimXIX wrote:
If the basic Russ really is only 6 points cheaper then it is now I'm going to lose my mind.

If the base russ is any cheaper, at all, I would call that a victory. Have you seen the point changes to other vehicles?

 SeraphimXIX wrote:
From a guy on /tg/ claiming to have the book:

Leman Russ base cost 132
battlecannon 22
heavy bolter 8
thats the base setup. so 162

If the basic Russ really is only 6 points cheaper then it is now I'm going to lose my mind.

As in... lose your mind in a good way?

With the massive price hikes all the other faction's vehicles are getting, staying roughly the same seems like a nice win for the IG.

It seems like it would be hard for the difference to be as little as 0.25 unless you're assuming 100% accuracy on the old BC.


Let's say we're looking at a 60mm MC base. GW lists base sizes in diameter, so that's a 30mm radius or 1.18". The large blast template is a 5" diameter, so 2.5" radius.

So, we need to scatter by less than 3.68" in order to hit. So 3" or less is a hit, 4" or more is a miss. Plus 33% for the two hit results on the scatter dice.

We are applying our BS to reduce the scatter, so on the 2d6 roll it's a hit on 7+. Conveniently, that's exactly 50% on a 2d6. 50% out of our 66% chance of getting a scatter result in the first place is 33%, so conveniently that's a 66% chance of hitting.

Though, of course, anything that scatters in the roughly 180 degrees facing your opponent's board edge will probably hit *something*, just not your original target. I'm definitely going to miss being able to do that.

Anyway, for now we're looking at about a 66% chance of hitting (your original target). Let's say they're T7. So you wound on 3+, then they don't get a save because most MCs are 3+ save. You have a 4/9 chance of doing just one wound, and a 5/9 chance of doing nothing at all.

Where as on the new BC, it looks like for whatever target you were using you only have a 45% chance of doing nothing, a ~12% chance of doing one wound, a ~14% chance of two wounds, a ~16% chance of three wounds, a 5% chance of four wounds, and then an increasingly trivial chance of more than four.

So you're going to be wounding at all more consistently, and on a successful wound your two most common results will be two or three wounds. It's no wunderwaffen, but that is a non-trivial improvement against an MC.

The catch, of course, is I'm expecting the extra wounds MCs and vehicles are getting will pretty much completely offset it.

 Trickstick wrote:

 SeraphimXIX wrote:
If the basic Russ really is only 6 points cheaper then it is now I'm going to lose my mind.

If the base russ is any cheaper, at all, I would call that a victory. Have you seen the point changes to other vehicles?

Yeah, is not only about being cheaper, is about everything is being made more expensive, so even staying at the same point cost as today, in relation to other vehicles the difference is gonna be huge.


EDIT: Ninjad by Humble Guardsman.

Some more stuff.

the sponson and hull mounted weapons no longer have to snapfire and can fire on different targets, they got overall better. playtested them a bit.

>>53521030
how about some orders aswell?

aim! reroll to hit rolls of 1 for the target unit

first row second row fire! all lasguns and high energy lasguns are rapidfire 2 for the target unit

destroy it! reroll to wound rolls of 1 for the target unit

onward for the emperor! the target unit may fire even if it advanced this turn

get a grip! the target unit may fire, even if it disengaged from combat

go go go! instead of firing, the target unit may move as if it is its movement phase. cant assault though

get the bajonett! may only issued to units within 1" of a enemy, the target unit may attack as if it is the close combat phase

guardsmen remained the same basically, can move 6" and are 4 points each.

baneblade variants are t 8 w 26 with 3+ each btw.

>>53521081
yarrik is 130 pts
m6 ws 2+ bs 2+ s 3 t 4 w 4 a 3 ld 9 sv 4+
his claw is s x2 ap -3 dmg d3 and -1 on to hit rolls

astra militarum units within 6" may use his ld

each time yarrik loses his last wound roll a d6 on 3+ he wont lose the last wound

astra militarum units within 6" may never lose more than 1 model when doing leadship tests

6" reroll 1's to hit bubble against orks

4+ invul

rough riders are 10 points with gear (8 base lance is 2)
can come from the side of the board at the end of any movement phase with 7" range up to 9" from the enemy. can assault of course.
their lances are s5 ap -2 dmg d3

 Trickstick wrote:

 SeraphimXIX wrote:
If the basic Russ really is only 6 points cheaper then it is now I'm going to lose my mind.

If the base russ is any cheaper, at all, I would call that a victory. Have you seen the point changes to other vehicles?

 Humble Guardsman wrote:
As in... lose your mind in a good way?

With the massive price hikes all the other faction's vehicles are getting, staying roughly the same seems like a nice win for the IG.

It doesn't matter what vehicles from other codices cost. If other vehicles are worse, all that means is that the BC Russ is king of the useless units pile.

 SeraphimXIX wrote:
From a guy on /tg/ claiming to have the book:

Leman Russ base cost 132
battlecannon 22
heavy bolter 8
thats the base setup. so 162

If the basic Russ really is only 6 points cheaper then it is now I'm going to lose my mind.

Lol so in an 1850 points game you can bring 11 standard battle tanks. This is laughably pathetic.

 SeraphimXIX wrote:

 Trickstick wrote:

 SeraphimXIX wrote:
If the basic Russ really is only 6 points cheaper then it is now I'm going to lose my mind.

If the base russ is any cheaper, at all, I would call that a victory. Have you seen the point changes to other vehicles?

 Humble Guardsman wrote:
As in... lose your mind in a good way?

With the massive price hikes all the other faction's vehicles are getting, staying roughly the same seems like a nice win for the IG.

It doesn't matter what vehicles from other codices cost. If other vehicles are worse, all that means is that the Russ is king of the useless units pile.

If other vehicles are worse... maybe the power level is changing, and thats makes by relation the Leman Russ more powerfull and optimal for its point cost?
Maybe the Leman Russ in 8th is a unusable pile of garbage. But being even cheaper than in 7th is a big deal in 8th with all the big price hikes everything is having.