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Gibs55 wrote:


More as in three or four squads?

Yeah, i would go with 4 so you have some room to experiment a little. with 2, and possibly 3, your going to probably be hamstrung into running more Knights than might be efficient. Plus you could mess around with larger squad sizes too

 axisofentropy wrote:
I agree that Terminator Librarians are too expensive.

I think Deathwing Knights and Belial are the reason to play Deathwing, and maybe even the reason to play Dark Angels. The shooty terminators aren't much better than the other chapters (tho Belial certainly helps).

The Deathwing Apothecary is a good deal if you have more than two other Deathwing units. For 75 points he has everything a bare 26 point Terminator has, plus 3 Wounds so he's already worth at least 40. Then for the remaining 35 points you can heal maybe 3 or 4 Wounds and maybe resurrect a model in the course of a game? Value. But I'd rather have a Sanguinary Priest!

I'm not sure about the Champion. The Ancient might be worth it next to two units of Deathwing Knights.

I recommend the Lascannon Land Raider. The Crusader isn't much of a threat once it's empty.

Shooty dreadnoughts compare favorably to Predators. While they may not be as efficient or as tough shooting platforms as Razorbacks, they have the advantage of swinging back at infantry.

Regarding this, I am currently working on a Deathwing list that I would like to run through you guys. I am only unsure if I should take one or two Knight units in Land Raiders. and I will make extensive use of Dreadnoughts.

What are you guys seeing as the best way to equip your Deathwing Terminator squads?

Gibs55 wrote:
What are you guys seeing as the best way to equip your Deathwing Terminator squads?

as Deathwing knights

Gibs55 wrote:
What are you guys seeing as the best way to equip your Deathwing Terminator squads?

If you want melee guys, do what the guy above said and go with Deathwing Knights instead of TH/SS guys. They are better in every way. If you want shooty ones, go with Assault Cannons for the heavy, perhaps a Cyclone Launcher if you're feeling spicy.

Gibs55 wrote:
What are you guys seeing as the best way to equip your Deathwing Terminator squads?

With storm bolters becoming rapid 2, its hard for me to think of equipping them other than with the SBs. DS in and shooting 4 shots per guy, and if belial comes in with a couple squads, they re-roll all to hits is really good. I've been contemplating equipping the sergeants with TH/SS just to soak hits the high AP shots, but even then i'm not sure if the extra points are worth it. a

As far as heavy weapons, point for point, assault cannons seem like the best option to me so far. Cyclones would be nice but for 50 points, I can't bring myself to equip them at 2.5 times the cost of an assault cannon when the assault cannon, imo, is far superior to the frag missile, and I get my anti tank from other sources, like twin lascannon dreads anyways. I'm not a fan of the other options. terminators are too slow for Heavy flamers, and since you have to DS outside of 9", you can't even come down and flame a squad anymore. The plasma cannon is just too inconsistent and at str 7, is really no better then str 6 assault cannon with how the wound table is now.

i saw in a battle report the black knights with their plasma talons just tore some necrons up. anyone else playtest?

bobafett012 wrote:

Gibs55 wrote:
What are you guys seeing as the best way to equip your Deathwing Terminator squads?

With storm bolters becoming rapid 2, its hard for me to think of equipping them other than with the SBs. DS in and shooting 4 shots per guy, and if belial comes in with a couple squads, they re-roll all to hits is really good. I've been contemplating equipping the sergeants with TH/SS just to soak hits the high AP shots, but even then i'm not sure if the extra points are worth it. a

As far as heavy weapons, point for point, assault cannons seem like the best option to me so far. Cyclones would be nice but for 50 points, I can't bring myself to equip them at 2.5 times the cost of an assault cannon when the assault cannon, imo, is far superior to the frag missile, and I get my anti tank from other sources, like twin lascannon dreads anyways. I'm not a fan of the other options. terminators are too slow for Heavy flamers, and since you have to DS outside of 9", you can't even come down and flame a squad anymore. The plasma cannon is just too inconsistent and at str 7, is really no better then str 6 assault cannon with how the wound table is now.

50 pts does seem quite pricey for the Cyclones and assault cannons look nice after looking through some math hammer.

I am starting to that that only one unit of Knights might be the way to go. Also is there any value in putting them in a Land Raider, over DS them in?

Also does anyone have a view on the Predator, seems like a beast this addition? Or do you think it is outshined by the LR and Dreads?

haven't playtested yet, but excited for black knights. looking forward to advancing with them while still shooting.

I'm also excited plasma doesn't hurt you if you don't overcharge. i feel like it makes it great against infantry, and then you have the option to turn on the pain with overcharge.

First I'm going to try out black and green wing. A blob of Sammael, two dark talons, black knights, and a darkshroud to light things up on the move.
Green portion would be two devastators (plas on one, las/MLs on the other), being babysat by a company master and primaris lt. for some reroll action. Sprinkle in some tacs and scouts as troops and a vindicare for commissar hunting.

Are we seeing *anything* in the DA list that's reasonable to use in a drop pod? Just painted one prior to the edition change and I'd like to use it if possible.

So it sounds like a unit or two of DW terminators and maybe one gang of knights striking in with Belial is a thing that could be worked into a list?

 GrimDork wrote:
Are we seeing *anything* in the DA list that's reasonable to use in a drop pod? Just painted one prior to the edition change and I'd like to use it if possible.

Drop Pods are not looking great, but IMO the classic Melta+Combimelta combo might still be legit. Sure, you're out of half range on the guns, but still a potential for 2d6 damage on something big isn't too bad, especially when you can use a command reroll to mitigate bad rolls.

So it sounds like a unit or two of DW terminators and maybe one gang of knights striking in with Belial is a thing that could be worked into a list

I actually did that today, and so did one of my opponents, and it seemed to work great. All those rerolls with Belial are amazing, especially if you do what I did and take a CML on one of your termie units. Belial is going to be a must take for a list that has a decent Deathwing component for sure.

I think Azrael and some heavy support type stuff sitting in the backfield is going to be a thing for sure. I was loving all the rerolls to hit with my lascannons on my Dreads, Devastators, and Predator today. Azzy is like a Void Shield Generator with a smaller bubble but extra effects, including that extra CP he gives.

Speaking of CP, I don't really think it's going to be worth it to manhandle DA into a brigade detachment. Yes, it can be done, but I think you have to dilute your firepower way too much to get much use out of all those command points. Maybe whenever DA get an actual codex we'll get some unique stratagems that will make it worth it, but I doubt it.

 GrimDork wrote:
Are we seeing *anything* in the DA list that's reasonable to use in a drop pod? Just painted one prior to the edition change and I'd like to use it if possible.

devastator squads

Hmm so what kind of Devastators? Melta seems like the thing but its awful expensive this edition. Maybe the good old heavy bolter team? With the plasma cannon, of course, to take advantage of that Signum. Perhaps a combi-plasma too, to drive the point home and kind of acquire a secondary role. Add ammo cherub for the PC and along with the Sgt recklessly overheating his gun you could slag some two wound targets or a vehicle too.

Would it be worth loading up the extra 5 marines to combat squad off of the main team to take full advantage of the transport or is that possibly wasting points?


I like the sound of Belial + 2x DWT + Knights. Shooty, punchy, thematic, and a nice load of points in relatively few figures. Maybe a DW apothecary to be cheeky and battle Rez some of these monsters? What about the Champion, that halberd can help thin numbers(of anything) but he's not a lightweight in the points department.

Yes, Deathwing knights backed by Belial and a Deathwing Ancient may be the most competitive Dark Angels combo right now. See previous pages here.

I don't know what's best in a drop pod. I feel jump pack assault Marines will usually be more efficient with deep strike.

What are thoughts right now on how to build/equip Belial? Sword of silence, lightning claws, or TH/SS?

 temoinlanuit wrote:
What are thoughts right now on how to build/equip Belial? Sword of silence, lightning claws, or TH/SS?

I would go with the sword. It wounds anything that's not a vehicle on 2's, plus he really doesn't need the shield as much since he already has a 4++. I think the claws are probably the least good option. Sure he gets an extra attack with rerollable wounds, but he might still struggle against some targets. At least the hammer deals a lot of damage. Honestly all three are probably viable though. It may depend on what you are dropping Belial with.

If you bring him with knights I'd definitely take the sword.
no 3++ needed if you keep him positioned well.
And against vehicles the Knights will do the trick on their own.

There's a lot of talk about knights in here. DeathWing have never previously fared well as an assault army, and now they're slower than other armies. And now they have worse saves against most power weapons.

Has it really changed that much?

 Russell's teapot wrote:
There's a lot of talk about knights in here. DeathWing have never previously fared well as an assault army, and now they're slower than other armies. And now they have worse saves against most power weapons.

Has it really changed that much?

Being able to swing first even with powerfists is HUGE. It allows you to potentially kill what you attack before it can strike back. Also, Deathwing Termies (and other Termies in general) got an extra wound, so there will be less losing 2 models to a couple of lucky Guardsmen with flashlights...

As far as Knights go, they are strictly better than other Assault-oriented Termies. Those Maces are really brutal. I think they are better off riding in a Land Raider Crusader along with a Deathwing Ancient than trying to teleport in. I got really lucky in the game where I teleported them in, but that won't happen every game. It's probably more consistent to let them charge out of a metal bawks.

This line of reasoning intrigues me Zergsmasher.

Which variant of metal box? I could use more lascannons but driving them right up to my opponent to unload seems counter productive.

Definitely go with a Crusader. You can't take a character with your Knights in a Godhammer. And as for the Redeemer: no, just no. Even more expensive than a Godhammer for inferior weapons unless you would rather engage hordes instead of big baddies. And you really don't want your Land Raider getting close enough to the enemy to use the Flamestorm Cannons (although their overwatch would be disgusting...). The Crusader is under 300 points unless you take the optional Multi-melta, which I do recommend as it is a powerful weapon.

I played the LR Crusader in one game yesterday and its intimidation factor alone was very satisfying. My opponent had very little that could deal with it at all. The DW Knights inside did their job admirably too.

Hmmm LRC huh. Wonder if I have bits for one of those kicking around or not. Would have to supplement it with some armor piercing shots elsewhere.

I've finally gotten my Deathwing army rolling, so this thread is golden. Good stuff, guys!

I haven't played with them yet, but I agree that Knights seem awfully tempting. They pack a ton of punch and have those invaluable storm shields to keep rolling through high AP fire and tough melee opponents. On the other hand, dropping in a bunch of storm bolters with Belial rerolls seems pretty devastating. I'm not sure there's enough room for both, though. Decisions, decisions.

On the topic of METAL BAWKS delivery systems, while the LRC seems great due to capacity, I think you'd be better off with a LR that has more threatening firepower. Scads of bolter shots is okay, I guess, but I'm not terribly impressed. I'm considering going with a Spartan (or two!), depending on the cost, and dropping Belial and friends in nearby before unleashing a charge.

I know it's probably not the absolute most competitive way to go, but I'm dedicated to a pure Deathwing army (only Terminators and tanks, baby!), with the possible exception of characters.

Dreads are a good and fluffy way to get some weapons with more punch for Deathwing. If you have 2-3 Dreads with Lascannons and either Missiles or Dreadnought Combat Weapons, you will be okay with a LRC. Indeed, a firebase of 2-4 Dreads with Azrael protecting them and giving them rerolls is a good strategy.

Huh that's kinda neat.

No off-hand autocannon? I like 4 vs 1 shot but I guess str 8 is pretty useful on the missile. What about venerable, worth it?

I looked at dreads but found the autolas predator came out to about the same price as a twinlas+twinauto dread but with more wounds and toughness. Of course the dread doesn't degrade and maybe that's not an optimal load for one.

Yes Deathwing knights are the best terminators and probably the best Dark Angels unit.of Shootywing wouldn't be any better than other chapter's terminators except for access to Belial and Ancient buffs.

I found the Crusader is not much of a threat after it's empty. The lascannon Land Raider is always terrifying; its ability to shoot Heavy weapons at full BS after moving makes it better than two laser Razorbacks. But I'll keep trying the Crusader, it could be worth it.

So how about we take the classic land raider with five knights and have the Dw ancient teleport strike into range, much the same as we might do with Belial and his shootynators. The DWK can then be driven up close so they're in better controlled conditions to charge and the rest can just port in close enough for auras to hit. The lascannons raider can then tactical retreat to a better distance for tank sniping. Ehh?

I like the Azrael-buffed dreads idea to some extent, but that seems like a crapload of points to have chilling in your backfield for a medium amount of firepower. They all have to be kind of clumped together, too. I'd rather just roll with 450-ish pts of Spartan, lascannoning the piss out of things and dumping essentially your whole army wherever they need to be. Maybe dropping a unit or two of Termies in your opponent's face will prevent your mega-tank from getting mercilessly focus fired. Like, consider a Belial and storm bolters drop plus Knights, a Champion, and an Apothecary rolling in the Spartan? Perhaps an Ancient, too?

I think I'm still missing the point on assault terminators...

So you get into combat, on turn 2 or 3 (perhaps turn 1) and each assault unit wipes out a squad - of chaff if your opponent has any sense. Then what? You're slow, the opponent is backing away, and has the rest of their army to light them up, or ignore them take out your fire Base to then concentrate on them later.

My point is, that with good use of terrain, and concentrated fire a shooty squad has a far better threat bubble than an assaulty squad. And is only marginally less good in combat.

Assay terminators look like one of those units that look good on paper, but fail to impact as you'd expect on the table.

 Russell's teapot wrote:
I think I'm still missing the point on assault terminators...

So you get into combat, on turn 2 or 3 (perhaps turn 1) and each assault unit wipes out a squad - of chaff if your opponent has any sense. Then what? You're slow, the opponent is backing away, and has the rest of their army to light them up, or ignore them take out your fire Base to then concentrate on them later.

My point is, that with good use of terrain, and concentrated fire a shooty squad has a far better threat bubble than an assaulty squad. And is only marginally less good in combat.

Assay terminators look like one of those units that look good on paper, but fail to impact as you'd expect on the table.

It's the Storm Shields. Played a game just yesterday where my deathwing knights took all the dark lance and disintegration cannon shots and kept marching forward. They can survive shooting just fine.

As for the shooty terminators, you're paying for those power fists so if they're not using them they're a big waste. If you really believe threat bubble is critical, then you want assault marines or the new inceptors or ravenwing, not shooty terminators. tactical terminators illustrate why it's better to have specialized units and not try to do two things at once.

And this is all in the context of the balanced lists that will do better in 8th edition than (almost) any spam list. Terminators and other assault units will thrive only when backed up and balanced by long-range, durable shooting platforms: land raiders, razorbacks, dreadnoughts, or, even better, allies like Astra Millitarum artillery or my favorite Adeptus Mechanicus. These can clear away chaff units allowing deep-striking assault units to do their job.