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 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:

I think the dev team just overvalued dedicated CC dreads a bit too much.

Maybe the point guys heard you could assault out of deepstrike, but not that dreads can’t ride in pods anymore.

If it were still raining dreads, I think the points might be worth it.

broxus wrote:
I still think it is an error. If it was a 5-points more to take a fuirioso I would think anything of it. However, paying 52-points more to have the opportunity to pay more points for more upgrades is insane. All of the upgrades people mentioned cost more points.

To get the ability to reroll hits (all 4 attacks) requires a second close combat weapon (50pt upgrade). This makes the Furioso cost 172pts over the cost of normal dreadnaught 110pts that can't reroll their attacks. Not to mention the Furioso cant take any ranged weapons if it does. Also the Furioso does not get black rage or any other special rules.

It is very wonky and I hope it gets a FAQ. There would be zero reason to EVER take a Furioso over a normal dreadnaught. For his points differences I would just buy a chaplain to allow rerolls for failed attacks.

I dunno, took me a while to see it but I think a Furioso is quite potent - you will automatically take the Frag Cannon and Magna Grapple. Being able to move 9-14" and shoot the auto-hitting Frag Cannon, that then also auto-hits during overwatch at full potency, is quite nice. You can also pump off a Meltagun shot (albeit at -1 after advancing). Stick the Dread in with a bunch of Rhinos or Razors that your driving across the table to meet up with your jumpers dropping turn 2/3 (never suicide them turn 1).

Can also see the same potential in the Eldar Wraithlord with the double Shuricannons and double Flamers

Bartali wrote:
I dunno, took me a while to see it but I think a Furioso is quite potent - you will automatically take the Frag Cannon and Magna Grapple. Being able to move 9-14" and shoot the auto-hitting Frag Cannon, that then also auto-hits during overwatch at full potency, is quite nice. You can also pump off a Meltagun shot (albeit at -1 after advancing). Stick the Dread in with a bunch of Rhinos or Razors that your driving across the table to meet up with your jumpers dropping turn 2/3 (never suicide them turn 1).

Can also see the same potential in the Eldar Wraithlord with the double Shuricannons and double Flamers

But you just highlighted issues...The moment you see "you automatically take X" you know there's a problem with balance.

Howabout furioso without frag cannon or magna-grable? Still worth the points? If those 2 are required for it to be worth it then the base cost should be cheaper and those upgrades should be more expensive. Not so that part of the worth of those 2 upgrades are included in base version...

Bartali wrote:
I dunno, took me a while to see it but I think a Furioso is quite potent - you will automatically take the Frag Cannon and Magna Grapple. Being able to move 9-14" and shoot the auto-hitting Frag Cannon, that then also auto-hits during overwatch at full potency, is quite nice. You can also pump off a Meltagun shot (albeit at -1 after advancing). Stick the Dread in with a bunch of Rhinos or Razors that your driving across the table to meet up with your jumpers dropping turn 2/3 (never suicide them turn 1).

Can also see the same potential in the Eldar Wraithlord with the double Shuricannons and double Flamers

I can also see the two-fister having potential uses. With the option of two heavy flamers they can deal some devastating damage against hordes for a mere 17 points more. The frag cannon + Heavy Flamer fist can do even more since it puts out a total of 3D6 of superhappyfuntime, at the expense of some close combat prowess.

Frag-cannon Furioso is clearly better than the pure CC dread because he can move and advance and still shoot (with negative modifiers). But he still only has an 8" range weapon.

Any other dreadnought variety is already far more useful at this point, and again - cheaper.

The pure CC dreads, the "two-fister", of course it has potential uses; the Pyrovore had potential uses in 7th edition too. Against hoards the CC dread is really effective... otherwise, not so much.
It's situational - at best, at a very premium price for limited utility...

That is the point, not that it has no use - that it costs WAY too much as compared to other dreads and as compared to potential output.

I am disappointed in my BA dreads in general. Of the close combat dreads, the Death Company is the one worth taking as it gets the Black Rage buffs as well as the good fist rules. The Furioso is just subpar now since the template weapons it had lost effectiveness with their new range and no drop pod use. I am considering changing my Furiosos to DC dreads after I try the constant advance and fire strategy in a few games.

The DC dread is better than the Furioso now... though yet even more expensive. Weird that he has the lowest Ld of any dread too, but I guess that's because he's crazy?

With a drop-pod this guy could wreck face and keep consolidating into more havoc, but alas -- a CC dread walking the field is always, and has always been - meh.

 Gunzhard wrote:
Frag-cannon Furioso is clearly better than the pure CC dread because he can move and advance and still shoot (with negative modifiers)But he still only has an 8" range weapon.

Any other dreadnought variety is already far more useful at this point, and again - cheaper.

The pure CC dreads, the "two-fister", of course it has potential uses; the Pyrovore had potential uses in 7th edition too. Against hoards the CC dread is really effective... otherwise, not so much.
It's situational - at best, at a very premium price for limited utility...

That is the point, not that it has no use - that it costs WAY too much as compared to other dreads and as compared to potential output.

Negative modifiers with the Frag Cannon ? No. It auto-hits, even after firing after advancing.
Also auto-hits at full potential during overwatch.

The Meltagun is at -1 of course though after advancing.

New GW points system explained for all those who can't get their heads around it.

Base unit costs and weapons costs were separated to make it easier to balance units and weapons across multiple platforms in an index/codex. A heavy bolter on a dreadnaught does not have the same table value as a heavy bolter on a marine. But rather than having every single unit have a different cost for the same weapon, they have weapons that can be taken by multiple units in a faction have the same universal cost. And they use the base cost of the unit to balance out the difference in relative value.

The value you see for any type of dreadnaught isn't the relative value of that unit before weapons are added. As has been pointed out stats can be identical before weapons are added but points are wildly different. This is because the relative value of the options available to each are factored into the base unit cost. For dreadnaughts that can take standard options (such as standard heavy weapons) they have to pay points cost for weapons other units can take. This means the relative worth of those weapons is placed in the cost of the weapon itself. Because multiple units are buying the same gun it has to share a common value, which is payed for by selecting that weapon. For units where they take unique weaponry or have rules that adjust the way they operate on the table then the value of those are factored into the cost of the base unit instead.

Look at it this way. If GW needs to determine if plasma cannons are OP they have to work out if if is in fact the gun that's costed wrong (they can adjust the value of the gun universally and it affects all units with access to it) or they can see if it's only certain units that are OP with it, in which case they can adjust the cost of the unit because it has the potential to take that weapon option. You can more easily pinpoint where the power imbalance lies and adjust the costs accordingly.

In the case of the Furioso, the relative table value of the unit is costed into it's base cost rather than the options it can take. Whereas the regular dreadnaughts have a much lower base cost but the relative table value of their options are factored into the weapons themselves. Because the Furioso is a more specialised unit you can do this, but vanilla dreads are more generic and can be more more easily compared to devastator squads and tanks in terms of relative worth and effectiveness. So like dev's and tanks they have a lower base cost but share the same weapon costs, because now you can alter their cost if they're outperformed by devs and tanks, without throwing off the balance of those devs and tanks. And because the Furioso doesn't have an obvious rival fulfilling the same job you can just throw the relative worth onto the unit itself without worrying other units.

Now if the Furioso does appear to be overcosted through player feedback GW can very easily adjust it's value without throwing anything else off.

As for the value of dreadnaughts walking across the table, the same can be said of any unit. Every unit has an ideal operating environment and each comes with drawbacks. how you use them on the table is important. If walking dreads across the board is weak, then don't do it. Keep your rifle dreads, or use CC dreads to counter deep striking assault units, or wait for the dread drop pod from the Forgeworld index and use that to get it into combat quickly. Don't use poor tactics to justify not taking something. Driving an empty land raider right at your enemy with nothing supporting it is a stupid strategy, doesn't mean the land raider is a bad unit.

Yeah I mean if you just read through the rest of the thread... the Furioso is overcosted period, regardless of the choice of armament it works out way too expensive for its potential output.

There are other, better, cheaper, dreads that also have more options, and mostly the same options as the Furioso.

As to your "poor tactics" comment - you're way off buddy. As stated many times here, the CC has some uses - but they are all highly situational, especially walking across the table. If you're waiting around for deep striking units with a pure-CC dread you're already losing, especially given that the deep striking unit can land anywhere on the table, likely far far away from your dread. GW has made it clear a major goal for this edition is balance, because in previous editions some units were just NOT good, despite "poor tactics" or otherwise. Walking CC dreads were NEVER good in any edition, but they always had some situational potential uses with the right match-up.

A CC dread, and especially the Furioso has far less VALUE than a shooty dread, and that is the entire point - it has uses, it can be used (if you're lucky), but it should cost LESS.