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Moosatronic Warrior wrote:
So if you go Ynnari your whole army has to be Ynnari and you can't mix in some Harlequins that keep Rising Crescendo or DE with PfP?

 Amishprn86 wrote:
Correct you lose those abilities.

No you don't.

When making an army the only condition is that they all have a common faction keyword. Anything you make ynary, gets the ynary keyword without losing aeldari, and in the process they lose their army rule to get sfD.

so you could have a unit of ynati dire avengers, who have both keywords ynary and aeldari in the same detachment as some troupes with rising crescendo who don't have ynary rule thus not getting SfD but they keep their rising crescendo and a unit of dhrukari witches that do not have y are thus they have the power from pain or whatever is the rule name

kaintxu wrote:

Moosatronic Warrior wrote:
So if you go Ynnari your whole army has to be Ynnari and you can't mix in some Harlequins that keep Rising Crescendo or DE with PfP?

 Amishprn86 wrote:
Correct you lose those abilities.

No you don't.

No, he's correct. Ynnari is an army wide thing, you have no choice. Please read Army of the Reborn.

 DarknessEternal wrote:

kaintxu wrote:

Moosatronic Warrior wrote:
So if you go Ynnari your whole army has to be Ynnari and you can't mix in some Harlequins that keep Rising Crescendo or DE with PfP?

 Amishprn86 wrote:
Correct you lose those abilities.

No you don't.

No, he's correct. Ynnari is an army wide thing, you have no choice. Please read Army of the Reborn.

I have and it talks about reborn army, but nowhere in the rule book or index specifies a reborn army has to have every unit with the ynary keyword. The rules for creating a battle forged army are that all unit must share a keyword. You can still use asuryani and ynari together, each having its own rule

kaintxu wrote:

 DarknessEternal wrote:

kaintxu wrote:

Moosatronic Warrior wrote:
So if you go Ynnari your whole army has to be Ynnari and you can't mix in some Harlequins that keep Rising Crescendo or DE with PfP?

 Amishprn86 wrote:
Correct you lose those abilities.

No you don't.

No, he's correct. Ynnari is an army wide thing, you have no choice. Please read Army of the Reborn.

I have and it talks about reborn army, but nowhere in the rule book or index specifies a reborn army has to have every unit with the ynary keyword. The rules for creating a battle forged army are that all unit must share a keyword. You can still use asuryani and ynari together, each having its own rule

Other than the Ynnari HQ units, it really is all or nothing. All other units only get SfD and the Ynnari keyword when taken as a part of an Ynnari army (based off that keyword). Since your army is all the models you bring and not just the detachment, it really is all or nothing. If you bring a non Ynnari Aeldari, it would disqualify any would be Ynnari that didnt have the keyword on their profile as standard.

Goobi2 wrote:

kaintxu wrote:

 DarknessEternal wrote:

kaintxu wrote:

Moosatronic Warrior wrote:
So if you go Ynnari your whole army has to be Ynnari and you can't mix in some Harlequins that keep Rising Crescendo or DE with PfP?

 Amishprn86 wrote:
Correct you lose those abilities.

No you don't.

No, he's correct. Ynnari is an army wide thing, you have no choice. Please read Army of the Reborn.

I have and it talks about reborn army, but nowhere in the rule book or index specifies a reborn army has to have every unit with the ynary keyword. The rules for creating a battle forged army are that all unit must share a keyword. You can still use asuryani and ynari together, each having its own rule

Other than the Ynnari HQ units, it really is all or nothing. All other units only get SfD and the Ynnari keyword when taken as a part of an Ynnari army (based off that keyword). Since your army is all the models you bring and not just the detachment, it really is all or nothing. If you bring a non Ynnari Aeldari, it would disqualify any would be Ynnari that didnt have the keyword on their profile as standard.

Again, could you please point me to were does it say that all units need to have the Ynnari army has to have all Ynari units?

I have been reading through the army building and it only says that all units in an army need to have the same keyword. There is no reference at all to Ynnary army having all Ynnari units. You need to remove that 7th mentality when building armies.

My army can be Ynnari army and have some Asuriany with battle focus (think of them as allies) and the common keyword would be Aeldai. Right now we don't have anything called Army of this, and there are actually no benefits for having such type of army.

Maybe in the future there will, but not right now.

kaintxu wrote:

Again, could you please point me to were does it say that all units need to have the Ynnari army has to have all Ynari units?

I have been reading through the army building and it only says that all units in an army need to have the same keyword. There is no reference at all to Ynnary army having all Ynnari units. You need to remove that 7th mentality when building armies.

My army can be Ynnari army and have some Asuriany with battle focus (think of them as allies) and the common keyword would be Aeldai. Right now we don't have anything called Army of this, and there are actually no benefits for having such type of army.

Maybe in the future there will, but not right now.

The rule that lets you give the Ynnari keyword to Aeldari units is the second sentence of "Army of the Reborn": "Any unit that does so gains the Ynnari keyword". There doesn't appear to be any choice here -- if "any unit that does so" means any Aeldari unit that's taken as part of an Ynnari army, then it's just automatic. They all get the keyword. How are you reading "any unit that does so" so that you're getting a choice?

I know what you mean but there is no where in the rules that say that you get army of this or army of that. There is no army of ultramarine thus all units hav ultramarine keyword so far. It will come in the future.

Right know that's they way of identifying ynnari, since Ynari don't have their own codex entry the units belonging to the army of the reborn twin ynari keyword, but they can still be mixed with asuriany with battle focus

Personally I play all ynari, so I don't use it, but if you wanted you could. The diferce with <legion> is that they replace that word, ynari just add it

kaintxu wrote:
I know what you mean but there is no where in the rules that say that you get army of this or army of that. There is no army of ultramarine thus all units hav ultramarine keyword so far. It will come in the future.

Right know that's they way of identifying ynnari, since Ynari don't have their own codex entry the units belonging to the army of the reborn twin ynari keyword, but they can still be mixed with asuriany with battle focus

Personally I play all ynari, so I don't use it, but if you wanted you could. The diferce with <legion> is that they replace that word, ynari just add it

This is very hard to make sense of. It sounds to me like you see exactly where in the rules it says that all Aeldari units taken as part of an Ynnari army gain the Ynnari keyword, and you just don't like that because other special factions that let you bring in units from other main factions don't work this way. I mean, it's not like it would have been hard for GW to allow people to mix and match Ynnari and Craftworld units; literally all they'd have had to do is add the word "may" in there.

It would not and I understand where all the doubt comes from.

If you see ynari army is not capped nor bolder. I quote "except..... any aeldari unit can be part of an Ynnari army. Any unit that does show gains the Ynnari keyword. These cannot use the following abilities..... Instead they gain SfD"

As I was saying when you make your army you are not making an Ynari army. What this is trying to say is which units bwlong to the Ynnari army, defining which units you can chose from for your detachment that can have the Ynnari keyword. Same as you have craftwork lists of entries (the craftwork army) or dhrukari.

Please look into the rules. On army building there is no such a thing called XXX army. The rule for building a list is that they must share a keyword. Is the same as you can have rubrics and plague marines as troops in a chaos lists as long as you give each of them the right keyword.

As I was saying my whole army goes by Ynnari, no unit plays with battlefocus, so I won't benefit from it, but if my opponent did it, this would be fine

kaintxu wrote:
It would not and I understand where all the doubt comes from.

If you see ynari army is not capped nor bolder. I quote "except..... any aeldari unit can be part of an Ynnari army. Any unit that does show gains the Ynnari keyword. These cannot use the following abilities..... Instead they gain SfD"

As I was saying when you make your army you are not making an Ynari army. What this is trying to say is which units bwlong to the Ynnari army, defining which units you can chose from for your detachment that can have the Ynnari keyword. Same as you have craftwork lists of entries (the craftwork army) or dhrukari.

Please look into the rules. On army building there is no such a thing called XXX army. The rule for building a list is that they must share a keyword. Is the same as you can have rubrics and plague marines as troops in a chaos lists as long as you give each of them the right keyword.

As I was saying my whole army goes by Ynnari, no unit plays with battlefocus, so I won't benefit from it, but if my opponent did it, this would be fine

I don't think that there's any reason to suppose that a "<faction> army" is meant to refer to all possible units that could have the <faction> keyword. You've just made this up out of thin air. This interpretation also doesn't really work because in this case, all Aeldari units (with exceptions) are part of "the Ynnari army" (this is why you use this exact phrase later in your post). The actual rules use "can be" and "an Ynnari army", suggesting that not all Aeldari units that can be part of an Ynnari army are part of one, and also that there are multiple possible Ynnari armies. You have to twist what's written there to make your interpretation even facially plausible.

Further, the rules are quite clear about what an "army" is -- it's the set of actual units that you're bringing to the table to play with. I don't think there's something explicitly saying what a "<faction> army" is, but note that the "Battle-forged Armies" rules on p108 of the Xenos 1 index give an example of how you might fill out an "Army Roster", and it includes an entry for one's "Army Faction". Surely any reasonable person would take "<faction> army" as almost certainly intended to refer to an army with <faction> as its Army Faction.

Everyone just needs to accept that you cannot have a Ynnari army with Rising Crescendo, no matter how you try to game the wording. Let's not use Battle Focus as the example here

No one is saying the Ynnari army has battle crescendo, but you can hace on a same detachment Ynnari units and harlequin units, each with its own rule, as they share aeldari.

Please do read the rules of how to make a battle forged army. There no no such thing as "Ynnary army" made of middles just with the ynary rule.

Think of Ynnary coded as all those units from aeldari, drukhary and harlequin with the y army word. That is one codex, then you have another codex which is craftworlds.

When building your detachment you chose one common faction keyword, aeldari, and since both codices have that word they can go on the same detachment. Same as ultramarine and blood angels go together. They each have their own codex but they share the imperium keyword.

The same thing happened in the thousand sons topic and it was taken to the rules forum and it was resolved favorably

But then you can just throw in the units that are specifically forbidden in a Ynnari army using that argument.

Of course you can, same as you can have haemonculous covens with crwftworld because they share aeldari keyworld.

What happens is that those haemoncolous covens. Not gain the Ynnari keyword so they don't have SfD rule, the just keep PfP.

I repeat, there is no such thing as an Ynnary army so far, not a Space marine army. There are armies that have to share a keyword but that's just about it. Please read the rules and stop going by assumptions. When decides drop, then we might have specific armies with specific rules, but not st the moment. This is like AoS, as long as all your you it's are chaos they can go together, but if all your units are tzeentzch you gain destiny dice. The narrower the keyword you use the better, but for now there is no such thing

By that logic, no unit other than the Ynnari HQs can be Ynnari. If there is no such thing as an Ynnari army then no other Aeldari can have the Ynnari keyword. They dont have a <Aeldari Faction> placeholder Ynnari to be placed. The only way to gain that keyword is in an Ynnari army ( which you say doesnt exist) and that cannot include certain units.

I do believe the safer bet is that there can be an Ynnari army,but following the stipulations mentioned (as everyone else seems to have interpreted it)

OMG, WHAT I MEAN RULES WISE IS THAT WHEN YOU MAKE YOUR ARMY List it is not classed as an Ynnari only army that just has Ynnari units.

They Ynnari army is the list of available units for the Ynnari pulled from the other three factions. That's not a term you use for your game. For your game you make a force based on keywords and you can pick units from the 4 different aeldari armies as they share the aeldari keyword.

please have a look at the rules of how to build an army, our guys are not reading it. The only thing that exist are detachment and having a common faction keyword, if they just wanted for you to only have Ynnari keyword there, they would have specified your detachment or battle forged army can only have units sharing the Ynnary keyword which they haven't so far as for now, you til códices arrive, we don't have race specific armies, but grand alliance armies

An army is not well defined in the book, but most people assume it means "all the models you bring".
A <keyword> army is therefore an army in which all the units share that same keyword. An army in which you have Aeldari Ynnari units and Aeldari Harlequin units isn't an Ynnari army, but instead just an Aeldari army. It would be perfectly legal, as all units share a common keyword.
However, the only way to transform a standard Aeldari unit into an Ynnari one, is to include it in an Ynnari army (as explained in the Army of the reborn section). If your army in an Ynnari army, it means that all the units in it have to have the Ynnari keyword. So you can only give the Ynnari keyword to a standard Aeldari unit if all the others units in your army also have that keyword. That's why you could never create an army in which you have non-Ynnari units and Ynnari units at the same time (expect if those Ynnari units are from the triumvirate, since they come with the Ynnari keyword by default, and don't require your whole army to be Ynnari in order to gain that keyword).

ARMY OF THE REBORN
"With the exception of < insert exceptions > any AELDARi unit can [= is allowed to] be part of an Ynnari army. Any unit that does so gains the Ynnari keyword".

I think the problem the interpretation of that "can" in the phrase above. It allows all said units - with exceptions clearly named - to be part of an Ynnari army; it's not allowing those units to choose whether or not they want to be part of the said Ynnari Army.

I hope this helps out a bit to clarify what is not that wonderfully stated in the rules. A couple of "must" here and there would have helped to be 100% sure what has to be Ynnari or not.

I am almost 100% sure that GW intended for Ynnari to be able to mix with non-Ynnari. Unfortunately they worded the army of the reborn section in a funny way that prevents it without explicitly stating it isn't allowed. The arguments come from the fact that everything else that explains how to build an army seems to allow it.

Will probably be fixed in the codexes, especially if people badger them about it.

fresus wrote:An army is not well defined in the book, but most people assume it means "all the models you bring".
A <keyword> army is therefore an army in which all the units share that same keyword. An army in which you have Aeldari Ynnari units and Aeldari Harlequin units isn't an Ynnari army, but instead just an Aeldari army. It would be perfectly legal, as all units share a common keyword.
However, the only way to transform a standard Aeldari unit into an Ynnari one, is to include it in an Ynnari army (as explained in the Army of the reborn section). If your army in an Ynnari army, it means that all the units in it have to have the Ynnari keyword. So you can only give the Ynnari keyword to a standard Aeldari unit if all the others units in your army also have that keyword. That's why you could never create an army in which you have non-Ynnari units and Ynnari units at the same time (expect if those Ynnari units are from the triumvirate, since they come with the Ynnari keyword by default, and don't require your whole army to be Ynnari in order to gain that keyword).

As you say, people is assuming army is "all the models you brin." No where in the rules say that and even all indexes have Their units under the main headline ARMY (craftworld army list, Drukhari army list or Ynnari army list). If you properly read the rules for making your battle forged.

Let me quote you a few things from the rulebook about army composition

"CHOOSE ARMIES: When choosing an army for a matched play game, your army must be battle-forges (pg 240) and its total points valor can not exceed the limit set for your game.

ARMY FACTION: All of the units in a matched play army, with the exception of those that are UNALIGNED, must have a least one Faction Keyword in common (e.g. IMPERIUM or CHAOS), even though they may be in different detatchments

BATTLE-FORGED ARMIES: If a mission you are playing instructs you to select a Battle-forged army, it means that you must organise all the units in detachments. ... To include a particular detachment in your army, simply organise some or all of your units so that they fit withing the restriction and limitations detailed for a particular Detachment. ...."

As you can see you have "Armies" but not "Army of XXXX". The restriction on army building is that they share a common faction keyword. Since the Ynnari army list is composed of units from three different army lists they are saying the the unit entries you can use are the Aeldari ones and you add the Ynnari keywords to them. When it talks about all those units that can be part of the Ynnari army, it says they CAN be part, but not they HAVE to be part, meaning if you want them to be pulled from they Ynnari pool of units, you have to give them they Ynnari keyword.

As we have said above, an army is just detachment with a common keyword, so if you want to pull units from different detachments, as long as they have the same keyword you can.

Bloodshade wrote:ARMY OF THE REBORN
"With the exception of < insert exceptions > any AELDARi unit can [= is allowed to] be part of an Ynnari army. Any unit that does so gains the Ynnari keyword".

I think the problem the interpretation of that "can" in the phrase above. It allows all said units - with exceptions clearly named - to be part of an Ynnari army; it's not allowing those units to choose whether or not they want to be part of the said Ynnari Army.

I hope this helps out a bit to clarify what is not that wonderfully stated in the rules. A couple of "must" here and there would have helped to be 100% sure what has to be Ynnari or not.

Again, read the above, there is no such thing a "Army of XXX" or "Ynnari army", what it reffers to with Ynnary army is the units you can use as we are under the Ynnari Army List header, same as for all other factions. For the time being there are armies with detachments that share keywords.

Leaving the Aeldari or Ynnari discussion aside I think Ynnari is very interesting. Here are some thoughts:

As SfD triggers from dead units, better bet on killing small units first and keeping our guys close. Meaning get into melee with the main forces and use shooting to support this.

Use snipers like Death Jester and Rangers. Their 1st job is getting Yncarne into play T1, trigger SfD and are both cheap Core and Elite choices for more CP.

To not leave Yncarne alone in their lines, get more stuff into SfD range asap and maximise Word, pick an Alpha strike unit in a transport to send in T1 by Yvraine. Fight, hopefully trigger SfD, and Consolidate to tie their line down. Follow up with cheaper assault units in transports for target saturation.

Yvraine should advance up escorted by some chaff unit to maximise Word and then get into melee T2.

Use small/solo Razorwings for tying down enemies, fill slots for CP and trigger SfD. Keep under Yncarnes umbrella to not die from Morale.

Get Psykers into range asap to get possible bonus Smites/Gaze. That´s alot of extra Mortal wounds.

Backline shooters should always work side by side to gain SfD when their buddy unit goes down. E.g. 2x Dark Reapers.

kaintxu wrote:
As you say, people is assuming army is "all the models you brin." No where in the rules say that and even all indexes have Their units under the main headline ARMY (craftworld army list, Drukhari army list or Ynnari army list). If you properly read the rules for making your battle forged.

Let me quote you a few things from the rulebook about army composition

"CHOOSE ARMIES: When choosing an army for a matched play game, your army must be battle-forges (pg 240) and its total points valor can not exceed the limit set for your game.

Ok, I'll stop you here first: this quote speaks about "choosing an army". What stops me from thinking that is already enough for the criterion "your X units can be part of an Ynnari army?"
Reasoning is: Am I choosing an army? Yes I am. Am I deciding to do an Ynnari army? Again, yes I am. Thus if we're going for RAW interpretations, you already have the word army mentioned for me to refer to it when I open Xenos 1 and look for an Ynnari army.
Be careful, I'm not saying that it's definitely like me and others think, I already convened that the rules are not clear enough, could be both ways. GW could say both and sound right, but it's GW word what we need.

kaintxu wrote:
ARMY FACTION: All of the units in a matched play army, with the exception of those that are UNALIGNED, must have a least one Faction Keyword in common (e.g. IMPERIUM or CHAOS), even though they may be in different detatchments

BATTLE-FORGED ARMIES: If a mission you are playing instructs you to select a Battle-forged army, it means that you must organise all the units in detachments. ... To include a particular detachment in your army, simply organise some or all of your units so that they fit withing the restriction and limitations detailed for a particular Detachment. ...."

As you can see you have "Armies" but not "Army of XXXX". The restriction on army building is that they share a common faction keyword. Since the Ynnari army list is composed of units from three different army lists they are saying the the unit entries you can use are the Aeldari ones and you add the Ynnari keywords to them. When it talks about all those units that can be part of the Ynnari army, it says they CAN be part, but not they HAVE to be part, meaning if you want them to be pulled from they Ynnari pool of units, you have to give them they Ynnari keyword.

This is exactly what my first post was about. The word can.
From my point of view, the word can is there to specify what units are allowed to be part of Ynnari army thus gaining the Ynnari keyword, not to say "they can choose whether to".
We have to clarify this thing first, because there is no clear RAW interpretation.

kaintxu wrote:
As we have said above, an army is just detachment with a common keyword, so if you want to pull units from different detachments, as long as they have the same keyword you can.


Again, read the above, there is no such thing a "Army of XXX" or "Ynnari army", what it reffers to with Ynnary army is the units you can use as we are under the Ynnari Army List header, same as for all other factions. For the time being there are armies with detachments that share keywords.

No dude, I honestly think that this works as per the Legion armies. They tell you that Noise Marines are Troops in Emperor's Children armies (here it is the term "army"), and for doing so you also have to replace all <LEGION> keywords with EMPEROR'S CHILDREN and <MARK OF CHAOS> with SLAANESH.

My reasoning was: same for Ynnari. All units must have Ynnari keyword if i want to do an Ynnari army.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Scactha wrote:
Leaving the Aeldari or Ynnari discussion aside I think Ynnari is very interesting. Here are some thoughts:

As SfD triggers from dead units, better bet on killing small units first and keeping our guys close. Meaning get into melee with the main forces and use shooting to support this.

Use snipers like Death Jester and Rangers. Their 1st job is getting Yncarne into play T1, trigger SfD and are both cheap Core and Elite choices for more CP.

To not leave Yncarne alone in their lines, get more stuff into SfD range asap and maximise Word, pick an Alpha strike unit in a transport to send in T1 by Yvraine. Fight, hopefully trigger SfD, and Consolidate to tie their line down. Follow up with cheaper assault units in transports for target saturation.

Yvraine should advance up escorted by some chaff unit to maximise Word and then get into melee T2.

Use small/solo Razorwings for tying down enemies, fill slots for CP and trigger SfD. Keep under Yncarnes umbrella to not die from Morale.

Get Psykers into range asap to get possible bonus Smites/Gaze. That´s alot of extra Mortal wounds.

Backline shooters should always work side by side to gain SfD when their buddy unit goes down. E.g. 2x Dark Reapers.

This is interesting, I was already thinking about snipers for cheeky stuff like Commisars that absolutely need to be taken care of.
And yes, always 2x and keep close the best shooting units.

Also, anyone has good opinions about Hellions? I think they are cheap enough for acting like chaff but they still have anti-infantry saturation fire and in cc each does 2 S4 attacks with 2 Dmg each (with drugs either S5 or 3A each). Having 10 is 170p, if they manage to do something it's good, if they die also good for SfD.

Scactha wrote:
Leaving the Aeldari or Ynnari discussion aside I think Ynnari is very interesting. Here are some thoughts:

As SfD triggers from dead units, better bet on killing small units first and keeping our guys close. Meaning get into melee with the main forces and use shooting to support this.

Use snipers like Death Jester and Rangers. Their 1st job is getting Yncarne into play T1, trigger SfD and are both cheap Core and Elite choices for more CP.

To not leave Yncarne alone in their lines, get more stuff into SfD range asap and maximise Word, pick an Alpha strike unit in a transport to send in T1 by Yvraine. Fight, hopefully trigger SfD, and Consolidate to tie their line down. Follow up with cheaper assault units in transports for target saturation.

Yvraine should advance up escorted by some chaff unit to maximise Word and then get into melee T2.

Use small/solo Razorwings for tying down enemies, fill slots for CP and trigger SfD. Keep under Yncarnes umbrella to not die from Morale.

Get Psykers into range asap to get possible bonus Smites/Gaze. That´s alot of extra Mortal wounds.

Backline shooters should always work side by side to gain SfD when their buddy unit goes down. E.g. 2x Dark Reapers.

I have played a few games of ynnari and SfD is absolutely bonkers and gives some really good flexibility to the army. Just a few notes on a couple of your points.
- I don't think melee is necessarily the way to go for ynnari. Eldar have some really powerful short range shooting options and quality psychic abilities which combo super well with sfd. Warp spiders, shining spears, dire avengers and even guardians pump out a ton of short range fire power. Sfd allows them to drop in, focus fire down a unit and jump back to safety. Getting two rounds of shooting with guide up is awesome. And doom will almost guarantee the first target is going to drop to trigger Sfd. I have had a couple of games where my guardian units parked on objectives in cover have moved out, shurikened down a unit then moved back into cover and claiming the objective with sfd. Or warp spiders suddenly jumping 4d6 across the field into the enemies backline troops because a unit nearby was shot down.
- Solo razorwings are awesome. I've used them backing up my shining spears where they charge first so the enemy either shoots them down and kills them allowing the spears another round of shooting before they too charge, or they get into combat and the spears get in unimpeded.
- even with Sfd you can't cast the same spell twice in a turn. So it's only a bonus smite if you cast all other spells. Ancestors grace is underrated tho. I love putting it on shining spears as they are dual threat and the reroll applies to both shooting and close combat. So gets double mileage out of it even before soulburst.

 Bloodshade wrote:


Ok, I'll stop you here first: this quote speaks about "choosing an army". What stops me from thinking that is already enough for the criterion "your X units can be part of an Ynnari army?"
Reasoning is: Am I choosing an army? Yes I am. Am I deciding to do an Ynnari army? Again, yes I am. Thus if we're going for RAW interpretations, you already have the word army mentioned for me to refer to it when I open Xenos 1 and look for an Ynnari army.
Be careful, I'm not saying that it's definitely like me and others think, I already convened that the rules are not clear enough, could be both ways. GW could say both and sound right, but it's GW word what we need.

Let me be the one to stop you there. I have provided quotes on how armies are built, still need you guys to provide some for your argument. If you read the rulebook and all the quotes I have pasted, there is no such thing a "Chaos Army" or "ynarry Army", that is a term you are making up yourself, please point to me where in the rulebook it specifies that XXX army if completely made of units with such keyword.

All the rulebook says is that your battle forged army has to have a common faction keyword, it never talks about that the army you make based on XXX keyword suddenly becomes "XXX army". So that concept you have about "Am I deciding to do an Ynnari army?Again. yes" is wrong as that is not defined anywhere. You are basing this thought on how armies are deffined, but it seems you don't play Age of Sigmar where this has been around for a while, and until the "codices" came out, there was not such a thing as specific armies.

 Bloodshade wrote:


No dude, I honestly think that this works as per the Legion armies. They tell you that Noise Marines are Troops in Emperor's Children armies (here it is the term "army"), and for doing so you also have to replace all <LEGION> keywords with EMPEROR'S CHILDREN and <MARK OF CHAOS> with SLAANESH.

My reasoning was: same for Ynnari. All units must have Ynnari keyword if i want to do an Ynnari army.

Of course it workd as the Chaos legions, but I think you are also misinterpreting chaos legions. Actually if you go to the Chaos posts (there was a big argument also at the Thousand sons tactica that was taken into the rules subforum and mostly everyone but a couple of people agreed it worked like I'm saying, the bigger general consensus is that I can have a Chaos Keyword army with both noise marines and rubrics and berserkers as troop choices, as again the common keyword is chaos, and in the Thousand sond army list it says that Rubrics that have the thousand sons legion are troops. So as long as you give them that keyword in a Chaos army, you could give berserkers also the Word eaters legion keyword and they would also be troops.

Again, nowere in the rules "Armys of XXXX" are defined. You have an ARMY, that shares keywords

kaintxu wrote:
Let me be the one to stop you there. I have provided quotes on how armies are built, still need you guys to provide some for your argument. If you read the rulebook and all the quotes I have pasted, there is no such thing a "Chaos Army" or "ynarry Army", that is a term you are making up yourself, please point to me where in the rulebook it specifies that XXX army if completely made of units with such keyword.

All the rulebook says is that your battle forged army has to have a common faction keyword, it never talks about that the army you make based on XXX keyword suddenly becomes "XXX army". So that concept you have about "Am I deciding to do an Ynnari army?Again. yes" is wrong as that is not defined anywhere. You are basing this thought on how armies are deffined, but it seems you don't play Age of Sigmar where this has been around for a while, and until the "codices" came out, there was not such a thing as specific armies.

It really all comes to what your think it is to be "defined" by the rules, dude. As the passage I quoted before it's mentioned in the rulebook, so if you ask for proofs it all goes to what you value as a written rule or not.

"CHOOSE ARMIES: When choosing an army for a matched play game, your army must be battle-forges (pg 240) and its total points valor can not exceed the limit set for your game."

"ARMY FACTION: All of the units in a matched play army, with the exception of those that are UNALIGNED, must have a least one Faction Keyword in common (e.g. IMPERIUM or CHAOS), even though they may be in different detachments."

"BATTLE-FORGED ARMIES: If a mission you are playing instructs you to select a Battle-forged army, it means that you must organise all the units in detachments. ... To include a particular detachment in your army, simply organise some or all of your units so that they fit within the restriction and limitations detailed for a particular Detachment. ...."

Ecc.

There is no "XXX army" or whatsoever. Because they do not need to have an adjective for every army. That "Ynnari" army we are talking about is an adjective, which I interpret as "an army that you choose to be Ynnari following the appropriate rules". Again, I think it's only a grammar interpretation of some words, whether they are nouns or adjectives.

From my personal and private point of view, waiting a couple of lines of FAQs by those gentlemen from GW to clarify, I read the lines above, read the passage from the Ynnari page, and think: "They are using the term army for the totality of my detachments. So, no matter what I'm including, all will be part of my army. Do I want an Ynnari army? I think so. So all my units will be Ynnari".
I value what they say as rules even if these are just phrases like those above, taking as rule for what I see rather than what I do not see and assume there should be.
In friendship.

kaintxu wrote:
Of course it workd as the Chaos legions, but I think you are also misinterpreting chaos legions. Actually if you go to the Chaos posts (there was a big argument also at the Thousand sons tactica that was taken into the rules subforum and mostly everyone but a couple of people agreed it worked like I'm saying, the bigger general consensus is that I can have a Chaos Keyword army with both noise marines and rubrics and berserkers as troop choices, as again the common keyword is chaos, and in the Thousand sond army list it says that Rubrics that have the thousand sons legion are troops. So as long as you give them that keyword in a Chaos army, you could give berserkers also the Word eaters legion keyword and they would also be troops.

Again, nowere in the rules "Armys of XXXX" are defined. You have an ARMY, that shares keywords

Yeah, ok, you could because of the good old "it's not written that I can not do it, so I'll do it".

I absolutely blame GW for not been enough explicative, but I really think you guys should not think it's how it works.
Like, player 1 says "My roster includes an EC's army (points towards 6 Noise Marines), a DG army (points towards 5 Plague Marines) and I also have two armies of World Eaters, one in each of my two detachments (points towards 8+8 Berzerkers)".

Seriously?

That said, it's pointless to continue much further. There are clear holes that need to be FAQed to clarify all that for now falls under common sense.

I agree there are holes and some FAQ would be good, but right now RAW as you say you are interpreting that adjective to be that all units have that word to get access to it, but that is an assumption.

RAW you creater your army, and the only rule to create and army is common faction keyword. Ynanri army is not even bolded, nor it says all units have to have the Ynnari keyword, so again that is your assumption and I agree it could be RAI, but it is not RAW.

For the chaos issue, rules clearly state that those list of units can be given the specific legion keyword, and if plague marines have death guard legion, then they are troops, so I could easily make a detachment that combines different legions under the Chaos faction keyword and there is nothing going against that right now.

Anyway, lets focus in some Ynnari tactics as we will never get to an agreement here.

People made this mistake in 7th as well. Never spend points on something you intend to just sacrifice. It's always the wrong choice.

The units you want to soulburst off most, are your opponents. Then your msu units next to each other. Never kill your own.

The Yncarne.

I bought this sucker and really want to use him but it's not easy. Only turning up when something dies is awkward and it seems you have to build your army (whatever one of those is lol) around him.

The approach that seems best to me is to use a Serpent rush.

-Advance 4 serpents full of goodies right into the enemy lines.

-Shoot all the shuri cannons at the weakest enemy unit.

-If it dies the Yncarne comes out and is hopefully not the closest unit to a lot of the enemy due to the Serpents being in their face.

-If you don't kill a unit your opponent will likely down a serpent in their turn and the Yncarne can appear behind the unit that was forced to disembark.


It worked to get him out in a game I had against DE but then they shot me off the board. Before he went down though the Yncarne was an absolute beast in combat, not many characters hit harder.

People made this mistake in 7th as well. Never spend points on something you intend to just sacrifice. It's always the wrong choice.

The units you want to soulburst off most, are your opponents. Then your msu units next to each other. Never kill your own.

This. Very much this.

I would also add that I don't think MSU is always the way to go: you trigger SfD more often but it's not used as well by a min sized unit as by a big one. The best things to SfD with are big units of Firedragons or Wraithguard getting to shoot twice or Shining Spears and WarpSpiders that can jump to safey after killing something.

Moosatronic Warrior wrote:
The Yncarne.

I bought this sucker and really want to use him but it's not easy. Only turning up when something dies is awkward and it seems you have to build your army (whatever one of those is lol) around him.

The approach that seems best to me is to use a Serpent rush.

-Advance 4 serpents full of goodies right into the enemy lines.

-Shoot all the shuri cannons at the weakest enemy unit.

-If it dies the Yncarne comes out and is hopefully not the closest unit to a lot of the enemy due to the Serpents being in their face.

-If you don't kill a unit your opponent will likely down a serpent in their turn and the Yncarne can appear behind the unit that was forced to disembark.


It worked to get him out in a game I had against DE but then they shot me off the board. Before he went down though the Yncarne was an absolute beast in combat, not many characters hit harder.

I'm also looking for a way to use the Yncarne as it's an awesome model and a terrific all-round piece. The problem I found to be that he cannot charge the turn you set him up, even if you later manage to make him Soulburst he can't use that to charge.
The solution could either be a WS force like yours or playing an extremely aggressive list that maximise his presence and his psychic phase, in both you have to use his 9 Wounds and screen him.
But yes, it's like build an army around him... and more importantly it's like him or Yvraine, due to the limit to only one WotP per turn.

Moosatronic Warrior wrote:

People made this mistake in 7th as well. Never spend points on something you intend to just sacrifice. It's always the wrong choice.

The units you want to soulburst off most, are your opponents. Then your msu units next to each other. Never kill your own.

This. Very much this.

I would also add that I don't think MSU is always the way to go: you trigger SfD more often but it's not used as well by a min sized unit as by a big one. The best things to SfD with are big units of Firedragons or Wraithguard getting to shoot twice or Shining Spears and WarpSpiders that can jump to safey after killing something.

I have to agree. Units from which you should get Soulbursting have to be you opponent's. For this reason I'm tinkering my Ynnari more like a fast-hitting elite force rather than pure MSU, which also has the flaw to not get multiple Soulburst actions (and I'm a MSU long-time fan).
Previously i was talking about Hellions, just as example of the type of units I'm thinking about.

Yes I agree that larger units making the most of the soulburst is good. But there is a lot to be said for dark eldar beasts as 1 man units running around among your lines. Razorwing flocks in particular are awesome at 7 points per unit. Run them in tandem with your combat dudes. Shining spears especially. Charge the flock in first. Opponent either overwatches the flock and kills it, letting the spears or whatever soulburst to shoot again, or they take the charge allowing the unit to charge in unhindered. 7 points ain't going to break the bank