Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I think Word Eater Khorne Bezerkers are a potential unit worth mentioning. Especially with the icon that lets them re-roll failed charges.

 Melissia wrote:

 Yuber wrote:
It never occurred to me for the Stormraven to be OP. Can someone enlighten me further as to how this happened?

It's highly mobile, gives a -1 to hit it because it's a flyer, has a lot of firepower, and is hard to take down. Of course it's also about as expensive as a land raider crusader, while not being quite as durable, but it more than makes up for that in superior firepower (it has the hurricane bolters and assault cannons, but also adds heavy bolters and stormstrikes, exchanging the twin HBs and ACs for twin LCs and a typhoon launcher makes it a decent anti-tank unit as well for less points than a normal quad-las land raider; compare 4 S8 attacks and 2 S9 vs the raider's 4 S9 attacks).

I'd argue though that right now, the stormraven is approaching balance, because flyer units can't hold objectives and don't count for the purpose of determining if you have any models on the table. So you're paying ~270 points for a model that has a lot of mobility and firepower, but that's 270 points of stuff the opponent doesn't have to kill to table you. Whereas if you take a land raider, they DO have to remove that to table you.

At best that rule change just makes it harder to spam the Storm Raven, it's still broken.

If I had a 300 point 'Off Table' Nuke option that let me dominate and wreck my enemies army, I (and I'm pretty sure; everyone) would use it.

They really should have introduced a few hard nerfs, even if it was like a 40 point cost increase or a toughness decrease.

A 300-point "off-map" option wouldn't be able to be destroyed... because it'd be off-map. The Stormraven by comparison can be destroyed

Yes, it costs about as much as a land raider but is easier to destroy (for anything S8 and lower, the Raider's higher T value makes up for the raven being harder to hit, and has fewer wounds) and has less carry capacity. It could probably use a nerf. But the rule change made it a very risky tool to use. Like with most powerful options, if you use just one of them the enemy can focus fire and take it down pretty quickly.

 Melissia wrote:
A 300-point "off-map" option wouldn't be able to be destroyed... because it'd be off-map. The Stormraven by comparison can be destroyed

Yes, it costs about as much as a land raider but is easier to destroy (for anything S8 and lower, the Raider's higher T value makes up for the raven being harder to hit, and has fewer wounds) and has less carry capacity. It could probably use a nerf. But the rule change made it a very risky tool to use. Like with most powerful options, if you use just one of them the enemy can focus fire and take it down pretty quickly.

Not for Orks. For Orks killing three landraiders is a LOT easier than killing a single stormraven. Not that it really matters. With the FAQ you can just ignore the stormraven and grab objectives.

Ok.... Harlequins in a Starweaver SHOULD NOT be up there, are they strong? sure, is the starweaver effective? yes

but together "Are they OP for total points?" heck no.

The average cost of a 5man unit in a starweaver is 230pts.

If you look at spam lists and think this is spam and you take the maximum of these (but still have 2 Shadowseers, at least 1 Troupe Master and a Solitaire).

In an 1850 pts army your looking at 6 Drops (6 Starweavers and troupes with the HQ's and elite in them).

Are 6 units of starweavers/troupes scary? sure, are they op? not at all, Harlequins have huge weaknesses, 1 being Anti-Tanks/T8 units, 2 Huge hordes and mass shooting.

S: Im a Harlequin Player and i have to ally in either Eldar Fliers or DE Ravagers for dedicated AT.

pismakron wrote:
Not for Orks.

That's... not a very high standard right now.

Also Sisters: Exorcist is not very good at all for the points.

Repressors with Dominions are the OP thing (or Retributors with HB's) you can push out insane damage with a (basically open top Rhino) and when the Repressor's finally die, if you dont dedicate and kill the squads they will just shoot you twice (AoF).

The few games i played with them, i was able to kill 3 Storm Ravens in turn after he volleyed and killed 2 vehicles (out of 7) and the 2 units that fell out.

I road up and literally had no problem killing them, on turn 3 i tabled him b.c he didnt have enough damage to kill my vehicles and the SoB squads inside so at the start of my turn i AoF killed 1 more, then finished off the rest of the army.


Other than the ones everyone knows about, i Vote for SOB Fast/Heavy units in Repressors.

You can have 2 units in them (6 Fire points), take 2x5 man units with 3 weapons each, do this 6-7x to try and go 1st, the Repressor it self can have 2 SB's and a HF also. If you do this 6x with HB's, thats 108 shots turn 1 from HB's.

You can out range for 2 turns vs Conscripts if you play well, picking all that off and LoS away from the big guns as much as you can to win the attrition war

(I have not tested this out yet, b.c no one at my local likes to play this way nor has the models)

To be honest, Sisters don't need to outrange conscripts. They just need to get safely within rapid fire range with a fethton of cheap storm bolters. With dominion spam, they can boltershock most infantry in to submission.

There are a few ways to spam SOB, SB spam and HB spam. Conscripts are 24" HB are 36"

 Melissia wrote:

I'd argue though that right now, the stormraven is approaching balance, because flyer units can't hold objectives and don't count for the purpose of determining if you have any models on the table. So you're paying ~270 points for a model that has a lot of mobility and firepower, but that's 270 points of stuff the opponent doesn't have to kill to table you. Whereas if you take a land raider, they DO have to remove that to table you.

Flyers can't hold objectives? Was that also in the FAQ?

 Melissia wrote:
A 300-point "off-map" option wouldn't be able to be destroyed... because it'd be off-map. The Stormraven by comparison can be destroyed

Yes, it costs about as much as a land raider but is easier to destroy (for anything S8 and lower, the Raider's higher T value makes up for the raven being harder to hit, and has fewer wounds) and has less carry capacity. It could probably use a nerf. But the rule change made it a very risky tool to use. Like with most powerful options, if you use just one of them the enemy can focus fire and take it down pretty quickly.

I suppose I did leave that argument open, however the Raven is only slightly less durable than the LR against BS3 Lascannons. The ability to reduce accuracy is absolutely massive.
It's also vastly more mobile and provides a great amount more Fire Power.

The rule change made it risky to over-use it. Using a small amount of them is still completely viable, and still fairly safe.
Considering it's ALMOST as Survivable as a Land Raider, arguably more Survivable against many options... Forcing the opponent to focus it down is still a win.

Example Lascannon HWT
14 / (1/3 * 2/3 * 5/6 * 3.5) = 21.6 Lascannon Shots
16 / (1/2 * 2/3 * 4/6 * 3.5) = 20.5 Lascannon Shots

 Melissia wrote:

 Yuber wrote:
It never occurred to me for the Stormraven to be OP. Can someone enlighten me further as to how this happened?

It's highly mobile, gives a -1 to hit it because it's a flyer, has a lot of firepower, and is hard to take down. Of course it's also about as expensive as a land raider crusader, while not being quite as durable, but it more than makes up for that in superior firepower (it has the hurricane bolters and assault cannons, but also adds heavy bolters and stormstrikes, exchanging the twin HBs and ACs for twin LCs and a typhoon launcher makes it a decent anti-tank unit as well for less points than a normal quad-las land raider; compare 4 S8 attacks and 2 S9 vs the raider's 4 S9 attacks).

I'd argue though that right now, the stormraven is approaching balance, because flyer units can't hold objectives and don't count for the purpose of determining if you have any models on the table. So you're paying ~270 points for a model that has a lot of mobility and firepower, but that's 270 points of stuff the opponent doesn't have to kill to table you. Whereas if you take a land raider, they DO have to remove that to table you.

That doesn't always make a difference though, because when something hurts you really bad, you do have to remove it if you don't want to be tabled

One of the major advantages of a flyer over a tank is that it can get anywhere pretty quickly, allowing for both easy dodge and focus.

Is anybody else not even remotely surprised that the top 3 broken combos are all imperium

SemperMortis wrote:
Is anybody else not even remotely surprised that the top 3 broken combos are all imperium

Don't worry, they are heavily nerfing Brimstone Horrors.

SemperMortis wrote:
Is anybody else not even remotely surprised that the top 3 broken combos are all imperium

Only if you missed the last two editions. Plus, this poll is full of insanity. Rowboat getting more votes than conscripts? Okay...

Martel732 wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:
Is anybody else not even remotely surprised that the top 3 broken combos are all imperium

Only if you missed the last two editions. Plus, this poll is full of insanity. Rowboat getting more votes than conscripts? Okay...

Conscripts aren't scary, they are just the worlds cheapest tarpit and bubblewrap. Girlyman turns amazing Space marine shooting into ridiculous levels of SM shooting. Team it with a Banner and an apothecary and just spam heavy weapons and rapid fire weapons for one of this editions best gun lines.

As for the last 2 editions, SMs still had the most broken combos, Or did you forget about Super Friends and psychic shenanigans? Yeah eldar were right up there as well and Tau with their Anime style robots were good, but SMs were still king of the Hill after they got their buffs. And no martel I am not referring to all SMs just Smurfs and generic, I am well aware that your blood angels are still craptastic.

SemperMortis wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:
Is anybody else not even remotely surprised that the top 3 broken combos are all imperium

Only if you missed the last two editions. Plus, this poll is full of insanity. Rowboat getting more votes than conscripts? Okay...

Conscripts aren't scary, they are just the worlds cheapest tarpit and bubblewrap. Girlyman turns amazing Space marine shooting into ridiculous levels of SM shooting. Team it with a Banner and an apothecary and just spam heavy weapons and rapid fire weapons for one of this editions best gun lines.

As for the last 2 editions, SMs still had the most broken combos, Or did you forget about Super Friends and psychic shenanigans? Yeah eldar were right up there as well and Tau with their Anime style robots were good, but SMs were still king of the Hill after they got their buffs. And no martel I am not referring to all SMs just Smurfs and generic, I am well aware that your blood angels are still craptastic.

Eldar were still better than than the marines, I think. But my point is that Xenos were plenty broken in 7th. The Imperium has the most units, so statistically, they are most likely to get the broken ones. Don't forget chaos demons. They straight up beat death stars via 40 denial dice.

Space marines don't have amazing shooting in 8th. They have too few models for that. A Rowboat list will struggle in an objective-based scenario because they have to, you know, move. And it straight up loses to an IG conscript list. Even Rowboat fails to make marines efficient vs IG. Without the stupid gladius/deathstar shenanigans, marines are busted down to where they were in 5th.. mediocre at best.

Martel732 wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:
Is anybody else not even remotely surprised that the top 3 broken combos are all imperium

Only if you missed the last two editions. Plus, this poll is full of insanity. Rowboat getting more votes than conscripts? Okay...

Conscripts aren't scary, they are just the worlds cheapest tarpit and bubblewrap. Girlyman turns amazing Space marine shooting into ridiculous levels of SM shooting. Team it with a Banner and an apothecary and just spam heavy weapons and rapid fire weapons for one of this editions best gun lines.

As for the last 2 editions, SMs still had the most broken combos, Or did you forget about Super Friends and psychic shenanigans? Yeah eldar were right up there as well and Tau with their Anime style robots were good, but SMs were still king of the Hill after they got their buffs. And no martel I am not referring to all SMs just Smurfs and generic, I am well aware that your blood angels are still craptastic.

Eldar were still better than than the marines, I think. But my point is that Xenos were plenty broken in 7th. The Imperium has the most units, so statistically, they are most likely to get the broken ones.

Space marines don't have amazing shooting in 8th. A Rowboat list will struggle in an objective-based scenario because they have to, you know, move. And it straight up loses to an IG conscript list. Even Rowboat fails to make marines efficient vs IG.

If you go back to a Divided Imperium and keep Narrative Play in the Narrative Play section of the book...
Then they won't really have the most units huh?
(Actually, I bet some sections would probably still have among the highest amount of units, but it would still drastically reduce the amount)

Doesn't matter. I'm not purchasing and painting 150 conscripts to compete. If GW doesn't fix conscripts, I'm done with 8th. There's just no point.

Martel732 wrote:


Eldar were still better than than the marines, I think. But my point is that Xenos were plenty broken in 7th. The Imperium has the most units, so statistically, they are most likely to get the broken ones. Don't forget chaos demons. They straight up beat death stars via 40 denial dice.

Space marines don't have amazing shooting in 8th. They have too few models for that. A Rowboat list will struggle in an objective-based scenario because they have to, you know, move. And it straight up loses to an IG conscript list. Even Rowboat fails to make marines efficient vs IG. Without the stupid gladius/deathstar shenanigans, marines are busted down to where they were in 5th.. mediocre at best.

100pts for a Razorback with Twin Assault Cannons, 360(?)pts for Girlyman for 1060 you can field 6 Razorbacks and girlyman which puts out 72 S6 -1AP shots a turn. spend another 12pts and add on another 12 S4 shots at 24in and 24 shots at 12. worried about your opponent having vehicles? put 2 Pred annihilators in range of him as well, theres another 408pts. so now your army is 1468pts leaving you with 532pts for troops, what can you do with that? well lets see. 280pts nets you 2 tac squads with a Heavy bolter each and another 90pts gets you 5 scout snipers, more then enough points to grab you the HQs you need to field all this. So what is your level of dakka?

Razorbacks = 72 S6 -1AP shots and 12-24 S4 shots a turn
Preds = 8 S9 -3AP D6 damage shots and 4-8 S4 shots a turn
Tacts = 18-36 S4 shots and 6 S5-1AP shots a turn
Scouts = 5 S4 sniper shots a turn

And ALL of that is re-rolling hits and wounds because girlyman. And if you don't think you can cram that into his little bubble I can tell you that yes you can because I can cram 150 models into a KFF bubble without a problem.

So those scary Conscript bubbles you are so worried about? your 5 snipers with all those rerolls will statistically kill a commissar every turn (hitting on 3s rerolling and wounding on 3s rerolling, VS 5+ save) then use all those Razborbacks to annihilate conscripts from afar, if you kill 25 they will statistically wipe themselves out with morale. and if 25 seems hard to do, a razorback with rerolls is killing about 9 or 10 a turn. (hits on 3s rerolling and wounds on 2s rerolling with -1 armor) So with 6 you can wipe out 2 blobs of 50 without a problem (That isn't even counting the Stormbolters) so boom you have wiped out bubblewrap turn 1 and killed about 300pts worth of chaff. OF course you don't even need to kill them because you have range advantage on them so you can just start slaying their vehicles, keep in mind you have 8 TL Lascannons that reroll wounds. Against a T7 vehicles you will likely kill 2 vehicles a turn just with the Annihilators, add in those Razorbacks if you want and you are decimating IG opponents. Yeah I would take girlyman over conscripts.

Probably custodes. Our resident custode player only played one game with them and said "I'm not playing these until they are fixed."

 Melissia wrote:
A 300-point "off-map" option wouldn't be able to be destroyed... because it'd be off-map. The Stormraven by comparison can be destroyed

Yes, it costs about as much as a land raider but is easier to destroy (for anything S8 and lower, the Raider's higher T value makes up for the raven being harder to hit, and has fewer wounds) and has less carry capacity. It could probably use a nerf. But the rule change made it a very risky tool to use. Like with most powerful options, if you use just one of them the enemy can focus fire and take it down pretty quickly.

The nerf needs to come with a price increase to hurricane bolters. They are a 15 point weapon at least on a vehical.

Id say conscripts, brimstones, stormravens. Saying that, having played againdt the new grey knights. I think we'll be seeing them enter some units to this list.

Im surprised tau commanders would be voted for. Its not that theyre exceptionally good, its more that crisis suits (and most of the tau army not including fire warriors, gun drones, longstrike and pathfinders) are mediocre or overcosted. Same thing with cawl really, its not that hes super OP its more that admech in general are a bit meh (barring dunecrawlers and kastellans)

SemperMortis wrote:

Martel732 wrote:


Eldar were still better than than the marines, I think. But my point is that Xenos were plenty broken in 7th. The Imperium has the most units, so statistically, they are most likely to get the broken ones. Don't forget chaos demons. They straight up beat death stars via 40 denial dice.

Space marines don't have amazing shooting in 8th. They have too few models for that. A Rowboat list will struggle in an objective-based scenario because they have to, you know, move. And it straight up loses to an IG conscript list. Even Rowboat fails to make marines efficient vs IG. Without the stupid gladius/deathstar shenanigans, marines are busted down to where they were in 5th.. mediocre at best.

100pts for a Razorback with Twin Assault Cannons, 360(?)pts for Girlyman for 1060 you can field 6 Razorbacks and girlyman which puts out 72 S6 -1AP shots a turn. spend another 12pts and add on another 12 S4 shots at 24in and 24 shots at 12. worried about your opponent having vehicles? put 2 Pred annihilators in range of him as well, theres another 408pts. so now your army is 1468pts leaving you with 532pts for troops, what can you do with that? well lets see. 280pts nets you 2 tac squads with a Heavy bolter each and another 90pts gets you 5 scout snipers, more then enough points to grab you the HQs you need to field all this. So what is your level of dakka?

Razorbacks = 72 S6 -1AP shots and 12-24 S4 shots a turn
Preds = 8 S9 -3AP D6 damage shots and 4-8 S4 shots a turn
Tacts = 18-36 S4 shots and 6 S5-1AP shots a turn
Scouts = 5 S4 sniper shots a turn

And ALL of that is re-rolling hits and wounds because girlyman. And if you don't think you can cram that into his little bubble I can tell you that yes you can because I can cram 150 models into a KFF bubble without a problem.

So those scary Conscript bubbles you are so worried about? your 5 snipers with all those rerolls will statistically kill a commissar every turn (hitting on 3s rerolling and wounding on 3s rerolling, VS 5+ save) then use all those Razborbacks to annihilate conscripts from afar, if you kill 25 they will statistically wipe themselves out with morale. and if 25 seems hard to do, a razorback with rerolls is killing about 9 or 10 a turn. (hits on 3s rerolling and wounds on 2s rerolling with -1 armor) So with 6 you can wipe out 2 blobs of 50 without a problem (That isn't even counting the Stormbolters) so boom you have wiped out bubblewrap turn 1 and killed about 300pts worth of chaff. OF course you don't even need to kill them because you have range advantage on them so you can just start slaying their vehicles, keep in mind you have 8 TL Lascannons that reroll wounds. Against a T7 vehicles you will likely kill 2 vehicles a turn just with the Annihilators, add in those Razorbacks if you want and you are decimating IG opponents. Yeah I would take girlyman over conscripts.

Sure. Your losses.

I stopped reading at snipers for full disclosure. Snipers kill zero commisars in practice.

We have a trend:
1. Conscripts/Commissar
2. Guilliman
3. Stormraven
4. Brimstone Horrors
The rest not so much.

 wuestenfux wrote:
We have a trend:
1. Conscripts/Commissar
2. Guilliman
3. Stormraven
4. Brimstone Horrors
The rest not so much.

If you're going by number of votes, shouldn't Guiliman be #1?

Sure, count him as number 1, but that's insanity I think.

Martel732 wrote:
Sure, count him as number 1, but that's insanity I think.

Blame democracy.

Martel732 wrote:


Sure. Your losses.

I stopped reading at snipers for full disclosure. Snipers kill zero commisars in practice.

Snipers hit on 3s with rerolls. on the first batch you should statistically hit 10/3 times the rerolls will net you another 4/3 minimum, so you are looking at better then 4 hits on average. So lets roll with 5 because that is more likely with all those rerolls. 5 wounding on 3s with rerolls. Lets say 1 doesn't go through to make things about right with the hits/wounds. So 4 wounds. you have a 2/3rd chance to roll a 6 which inflicts an automatic Mortal wound ON TOP OF inflicting a normal wound. So the chances are again likely you will inflict 4 regular wounds and 1 Mortal wound which means he needs to save 3 of the sniper shots on a 5+ to keep his character alive. SO yes, statistically you will kill a commissar every turn with 5 Scout snipers, but if you really want to beat the chance game you can always add in another sniper for 18pts (Camo Cloak) and then ensure you kill that one Commissar. OR really conservatively, take out 1 tac squad and bring 3 units of 5 snipers and really ensure you remove your target, it doesn't matter all that much and since scouts can take a heavy bolter it doesn't even effect your loss of S5 -1AP shooting. So what is the next point you wish to argue because I have now shown without a shadow of a doubt that a handful of scouts can destroy the entire commissar/conscript combo.

SemperMortis wrote:

Martel732 wrote:


Sure. Your losses.

I stopped reading at snipers for full disclosure. Snipers kill zero commisars in practice.

Snipers hit on 3s with rerolls. on the first batch you should statistically hit 10/3 times the rerolls will net you another 4/3 minimum, so you are looking at better then 4 hits on average. So lets roll with 5 because that is more likely with all those rerolls. 5 wounding on 3s with rerolls. Lets say 1 doesn't go through to make things about right with the hits/wounds. So 4 wounds. you have a 2/3rd chance to roll a 6 which inflicts an automatic Mortal wound ON TOP OF inflicting a normal wound. So the chances are again likely you will inflict 4 regular wounds and 1 Mortal wound which means he needs to save 3 of the sniper shots on a 5+ to keep his character alive. SO yes, statistically you will kill a commissar every turn with 5 Scout snipers, but if you really want to beat the chance game you can always add in another sniper for 18pts (Camo Cloak) and then ensure you kill that one Commissar. OR really conservatively, take out 1 tac squad and bring 3 units of 5 snipers and really ensure you remove your target, it doesn't matter all that much and since scouts can take a heavy bolter it doesn't even effect your loss of S5 -1AP shooting. So what is the next point you wish to argue because I have now shown without a shadow of a doubt that a handful of scouts can destroy the entire commissar/conscript combo.

Prepare for the "Commissar is never in Line of Sight" retort. Because, don'tchaknow, there's never ever been a game of 8th edition where the opponent could see a IG commissar. In fact, I could forgive most non-IG players for wondering if there even is a commissar model, what with how rarely they are seen...