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Malachon wrote:
After reading it all, I'm with Arkaine. Khorne Berzerkers have 2 entries in the Index, one as elites, one as Troops. As far as I am concerned, I'd consider the Berzerker entry in the Codex to replace the Elite entry in the Index, but not the Troops one in the WE army part of the Index. Unless GW explicitly and specifically answers this question differently, that would be my reading of the rules. The FB question was not specific enough for me, it seems like a cookie-cutter answer from someone who glanced at the Codex when answering it, without looking at the Index and what this means for WE, DG, EC and TS.

Anything else makes no sense to me at this point. If in the DG codex Plaguemarines would be classified only as Elites for a DG Detachment, that would change my understanding of what GW wants the rules to say.

Edit: note I do not have a CSM army, so I have no horse in this race.

If someone put down World Eaters across from me and said they were using them as Troops because that's what's in the Index I'd be okay with it under the provision that they abide by JUST Index, meaning they don't get to use any additional rules like Stratagems or Relics from Codex:CSM.

I mean they only want to use them as troops for fluff reasons right? Not to try and wrangle an advantage via huge leaps in logic and rules lawyering.

Death Guard and Thousand Sons armys at this very moment, Cannot use the Codex for these forces, they must use the Index. (TS get to use the DH discipline though), No Tactics, No Stratgems or Relics.

WE & EC Must use the codex, GW have comfirmed this. It sucks. this goes almost without saying. But: its the rules.

However: This is for Competitive tourney lists that must stick rigidly to the rules provided for fairness sakes in a competition environment.

My local gaming group have "Allowed" Me, as a death guard Player to Use the Plague Marine entry (as troops as per the index Deathguard section), Several stratagems & the Renegades Chapter tactic until the Death Guard codex is released in Sept.

The Offical Rules for Fielding a CSM World eater Leigon Army is: You use the Codex and all relevent Entries, Zerkers are Elites and do not get Objective secured.

If this gets FAQ'd: Good.

If WE / EC get there own Codex with Noise & zerkers as troops: Good.

If you want to use the Index entry's and a mix-match of Codex CSM For NON TOURNEY EVENTS: Go ahead. Ask. But if your opponents/ group say no. Tough luck.

If you want to use a Mix match of the index and Codex in a touney Setting to get Zerkers/EC/Plague/Rubric with Objective Secured: you Cant.

Question: if DG get their codex and Plague Marines are Troops (with ObSec), would you then agree that it is ok for WE/EC to use their cult marines as Troops too?

Malachon wrote:
Question: if DG get their codex and Plague Marines are Troops (with ObSec), would you then agree that it is ok for WE/EC to use their cult marines as Troops too?

No.. as death guard probably won't have a Chaos Marine unit to fill the slot like WE/EC do

Malachon wrote:
Question: if DG get their codex and Plague Marines are Troops (with ObSec), would you then agree that it is ok for WE/EC to use their cult marines as Troops too?

Nope.

Only if its FAQ'd to say you can take them as troops *OR* they get there own codex's were it states as much.

*IF* DG / TS's codex's say that Plague marines and rubrics are Elites. Then that's how it will be.

If you were to ask me outside of YMDC / Tourney setting, feck it, I'd be ok with it.

If its at your gaming club who follow GW rules strictly, a Tournament (Official). Please See the big red writing.



If you play World Eaters, Khorne Beserkers are Elites. End of. No If's, And's or But's until they get an FAQ or GW says "No, this is what we intended"

If you play Emporer's Children, Noise Marines are Elites. End of. No If's, And's or But's until they get an FAQ or GW says "No, this is what we intended"

If you play Death Guard, You use the index, and only the rules in the Index. Until the Codex is released (Sept)

If you play Thousand Sons, You use the Index, and only the rules in the Index, apart form the Dark hereticas Discipline. Until the Codex is released (TBA)


Its really that simple, even if people on Dakka don't like it or agree with it! (Myself included!!!!!)

Big red letters fail to persuade me.

I am with Arkaine on this, there are army specific rules in the Index which are not in the Codex. Nothing overwrote them.

The fact that Berzerkers have been declared as elites on the Facebook page is a non-issue. They have always been elites.

The real question is whether or not the World Eaters Army Rules in the index have been replaced by something in the Codex. They have not. There's no mention about Army Rules in the Codex.

Yes, a FAQ would solve this, but then there's just a plain reading of things. I don't see what's so complex about it.

I would say if you want to use the index and make them troops then you can but you lose out to all the rules and relies and stuff from the codex just like thosand sons do. But honestly I don't see this as an issue either.

Ah, even with my CSM player glasses on, true cult units are elite no matter how you look at it.
There are specific data sheets for each type of named cult troop in the new Chaos Codex.
I am unsure how you could use "berserkers" in the index and say it is not contrary to the actual Chaos Codex.
It is no big deal, there is a formation that goes heavy on elites so I am unsure how that becomes an insurmountable problem.
The only time I could see using the index is if you do not see the named unit in the codex at all, it would be a good "loop-hole" to still field that unit.

Anyway, I would like to call this for what it is: It seems too much like trying to cherry-pick from each source to bypass some balancing efforts that were considered in one document.

 Talizvar wrote:
Anyway, I would like to call this for what it is: It seems too much like trying to cherry-pick from each source to bypass some balancing efforts that were considered in one document.

Or the Codex has nothing to do with balance and is the way it is purely because Elite Berzerkers are how Black Legion, Night Lords, etc would indeed take them. The World Eaters may well be getting back their troop mention once their codex releases, trashing any concepts from proponents of "For Balance!" and supporting the idea that it was always intended.

The real litmus test for this will be the Death Guard book. If cult Plague Marines are troops then you get bet every dollar you've got that the rest of the cult legions are supposed to have them too. The only argument against troop Berzerkers stems from the idea the World Eaters army rules have yet to receive an update, which will likely be in their codex, yet somehow the codex overrides them anyway. The original index treats the four legions as their own factions with their own rules that borrow from CSM rules. Little more, and that's how I'm sure GW will treat them in these coming books.

Oh, and fun tidbit. You actually can mix index armies with CSM stratagems. Per the Chaos codex, you only need to have any Chaos Space Marine Detachments to qualify for all of the stratagems. Field a single tiny patrol detachment of a sorcerer and some cultists and you instantly get access to all of the stratagems. As well as a Sorcerer. Heresy be damned. The limitations on what each stratagem can target are written directly on the cards and there is no need or precedence for segregating their effects according to detachment. Your general in one detachment can still buff some guys in another detachment, as long as they meet the requirements mentioned on the cards. In this way, Chaos Daemons can also benefit from CSM stratagems even though they are impossible to include in a Chaos Space Marines Detachment. As long as they meet the requirements, of course.

No, the strategems are for chaos marines only.

@Akaine: When the next codex comes out that is specific for the cult armies that will be a whole different animal.
I agree with Sharazad87 that it makes it clear that the CSM codex does not fully cover them until their respective codex comes out.

I would also agree that making a cult specific army is following history rather well.
If you are fielding a cult legion representing their respective gods they typically have been troop choices (I think 3rd edition had a good codex that did this).
I was just saying as things stand NOW you cannot have them as troop choices yet other than Death guard or Thousand Sons using their index.

I am unsure how "for balance" will be trashed.
All it will take is that nice little keyword "<World Eaters>" rather than "<Legion>" and then you have a very specific series of units to select if you get to use them as troops.
It will be interesting to see how keywords can cross-reference codex's.

" Fredrik Strand Does the no mentioning of Berzerers as troops in Codex overwrite the mentioning of same in Index?
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Warhammer 40,000
Warhammer 40,000 Hey Fredrik - as it stands, Bezerkers are an Elite choice in the new Codex. Of course, you can still take armies of them with the Vanguard Detachment from the rulebook. If this changes, you wil hear about it here first. ""

My copy pasta of what i found on fbook. If GW itself is coming out saying we cant use bezerkers as troops than thats really all there is to it. Sad to say. Its under the errata.

 Dayknight wrote:
" Fredrik Strand Does the no mentioning of Berzerers as troops in Codex overwrite the mentioning of same in Index?
LikeShow more reactions · Reply · August 13 at 12:25pm
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Warhammer 40,000 Hey Fredrik - as it stands, Bezerkers are an Elite choice in the new Codex. Of course, you can still take armies of them with the Vanguard Detachment from the rulebook. If this changes, you wil hear about it here first. ""

My copy pasta of what i found on fbook. If GW itself is coming out saying we cant use bezerkers as troops than thats really all there is to it. Sad to say. Its under the errata.

Except that is not what GW is saying. They are saying that per the codex, Berzerkers are Elites. Which anyone who has looked at the codex already knew. The question was "Does the codex datasheet replace the index datasheet?" which is not the question GW answered.

Captyn_Bob wrote:
No, the strategems are for chaos marines only.

Please cite where it states that. It doesn't. Anywhere.

 Arkaine wrote:

Captyn_Bob wrote:
No, the strategems are for chaos marines only.

Please cite where it states that. It doesn't. Anywhere.

None of the stratagem's affect non-CSM units afaik. There is one that affects Chaos Cultists, but all the rest have wording that limits them to CSM units of various types.

 Happyjew wrote:
Except that is not what GW is saying. They are saying that per the codex, Berzerkers are Elites. Which anyone who has looked at the codex already knew. The question was "Does the codex datasheet replace the index datasheet?" which is not the question GW answered.

I believe this was answered in the July 5th article.

Can I choose to use the rules and/or points for units from my index instead of the new ones in the codex once released?
In your own games, if you and your opponent agree, you can, of course, play with whatever rules you like.
In all future publications and official events though, it will be assumed that you’re using the most recent rules and Datasheets. It will also be assumed that you’re using the most up to date points for matched play, in this case, those included in the codex.

You should be using the latest rules for units which have updated datasheets unless you get opponent or TO approval. Same stuff for Legacy units. There'd have to be a good reason to allow my opponents to use the Index rules for WE, like them not owning the Codex.
To me, it seems like cheese if my opponent is using EC and WE Elite units as Troops (as a way to amass CP to spam their Codex abilities), when you could easily build a tournament legal list (IE one that doesn't require approval as it uses all the latest rules, datasheets, prices, etc.) with the same models using a different detachment..

 Happyjew wrote:

 Dayknight wrote:
" Fredrik Strand Does the no mentioning of Berzerers as troops in Codex overwrite the mentioning of same in Index?
LikeShow more reactions · Reply · August 13 at 12:25pm
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Warhammer 40,000
Warhammer 40,000 Hey Fredrik - as it stands, Bezerkers are an Elite choice in the new Codex. Of course, you can still take armies of them with the Vanguard Detachment from the rulebook. If this changes, you wil hear about it here first. ""

My copy pasta of what i found on fbook. If GW itself is coming out saying we cant use bezerkers as troops than thats really all there is to it. Sad to say. Its under the errata.

Except that is not what GW is saying. They are saying that per the codex, Berzerkers are Elites. Which anyone who has looked at the codex already knew. The question was "Does the codex datasheet replace the index datasheet?" which is not the question GW answered.

I mean trust me as a world eaters player i want to agree with you but the intention seems to be that bezerkers and noise marines are elites only until we get codexes. Think about it, he already mentioned the index, if GW really wanted to they could easily of said "well you can still use bezerkers as troops as long as you follow the index's rules" or something to that affect. Id suggest maybe posting a more involved question to that thread so we can get a better answer, certainly wont hurt.

Resolved.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/08/20/chaos-space-marines-and-grey-knights-updates-now-availablegw-homepage-post-4/

Berzerkers and Noise Marines are troops again for their Cults.

Well, that cost me a CP from being able to take a Kharn/Two Zerks Vanguard formation.

I know it's back to what people are familiar with, but I liked the concept of forcing WE players to take regular CSMs. Not all WE are Berzerkers, they have regular squads and havocs just like everyone else because not all of them are frothing at the mouth ragemonsters. The fluff on their page illustrates this.

Same thing for ECs; they aren't all slaves to the rhythm, only a select few zealots. But I get that people have a ton invested in them being troops choices, I'm just a grumpy old man who lost a CP.

 Arkaine wrote:
Resolved.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/08/20/chaos-space-marines-and-grey-knights-updates-now-availablegw-homepage-post-4/

Berzerkers and Noise Marines are troops again for their Cults.

Excellent. Not unexpected though.

Thank the chaos god them selves its been faqd

 Latro_ wrote:
Thank the chaos god them selves its been faqd

Errata'd.