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If people wanna argue that the troop datasheet is replaced rather than separate from the cult legion ones then all the SM players except the Grey Knights can't ride in their transports.

IFC_Casting wrote:

 Arkaine wrote:
If people wanna argue that the troop datasheet is replaced rather than separate from the cult legion ones then all the SM players except the Grey Knights can't ride in their transports.

..Of course a datasheet is replaced when a new one is released.

There are two of them in the Index, in separate sections, with specific legion construction rules, troop slots, and World Eater specific keywords. None of which has been replaced in the new codex. If a datasheet universally replaces old ones, the new datasheets for transports do as well and by the codex bans the special snowflake SM factions from using theirs until they get their own codex allowing them to use their Legion keywords once again with those datasheets.

The topic title should be "No Rhinos as Dark Angels".

BrianDavion wrote:
except that's a bad comparison because dark angels, blood angels and space wolves get their own codices. wolrd eaters and emperor's children are specificly in codex space marines.

Just as they do in the index, an entire chapter devoted to World Eaters with legion-constructing rules that were not replaced and specific rules and entries making cult units into troops, a mini-codex for each of the four special legions. Please show me where in the codex these elements have been replaced. There is nothing in the new codex about how to construct a World Eaters army. People are simply focusing on the codex update of a sheet that exists in the CSM section of the Index along with the Legion keyword rules the permit the use of World Eaters and Emperor's Children as legion choices. That's all they're going off of. If I'm to be forced to accept Rubric updates then I'm forced to accept Rhino updates and so Thousand Sons are incapable of using transports along with half the Space Marine players.

No unit in this codex may choose the Thousand Sons or Death Guard keywords and the Rhino is in the codex. They either broke six of the factions in the game by banning them from using non-Forgeworld transports or people are reading WAY too much into what it states about datasheet updates. You'd think this was crystal clear given the fact that we have two datasheets for the same unit in the Index along with specific cult rules that grant them troop choices inherently, rules that were never updated or replaced. But hey, Death Guard should be releasing next month...

Anyone who wants to buy into this "RAW" is welcome to get those Storm Ravens, Land Raiders, Drop Pods, and Rhinos off the field in time for Chaos to conquer Konor.

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
1.) It's to be used for OPTIONS that are not available in the codex. The thing calls out specifically a "model and it's weapons", which means that unless the WE datasheet in the index can produce a combination that is not in the codex, you're using the codex.

The Berzerker datasheet isn't what grants them the right to troops in World Eaters armies. It's the World Eaters army rules. They have their own army rules just like every other special snowflake faction and this new codex has done nothing to replace those, only to make certain options accessible to them. Death to the False Emperor and Daemonic Ritual are examples of CSM army rules and do not magically disappear just because you selected a legion trait. The legion rules for WE in the new codex stack with the old army rules from the index, which grant them Berzerkers as troops. The same index bans Thousand Sons and Death Guard from using normal CSM or other cult legions because our only marine troops ARE the Rubrics and Plague Marines.

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
2.) Again, it's representing individual models and their weapons, which legion rules have nothing on as the legion rules neither grants an additional, unavailable option, nor is a datasheet in of itself.

Since you're arguing that legion rules do not affect the Rhino then the same section of rules do not affect World Eaters overall, which means the existing army rules for them that permit Berzerkers as troops (found on pg 45 of the index) still apply. Simply updating a datasheet, as you put it, does nothing for altering the rules given and there is NOTHING in the codex that says World Eaters no longer use their old army rules, which as mentioned above are more than capable of stacking with Legion traits. They are only mentioned to give them access to Stratagems now instead of whenever in the next millennium they get their own codex to replace the Index rules.

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
3.) The same document gives BA, DA and SW permission to keep using the index. They specifically call out "Space Marine Factions", and only space marine factions, no one else.

Space Marines are not special snowflakes and GW frequently cites examples to support their general rulings. These are not the only members the benefit. Rhinos have recently been updated in the Grey Knights codex and carry the Grey Knights chapter keyword only. According to GW, newer datasheets override old ones, and since the old Grey Knights Rhino was pulled from the Space Marine index, it's the same entry. Loyalists may not use Rhinos unless they are part of the Grey Knights chapter.

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
Of course, no one reads the document like that, especially since GW has become more open with their intent and told us what they expect us to do.

No, they haven't, they've provided two very different interpretations that have been warring over this for a while when the intent seems perfectly clear and it wasn't to remove them as troops but to expand on their options until a new codex arrives, which DG/TS and the loyalists don't need since they're getting their codex releases quite soon.

You're going to have to bring this to YMDC if you wish to continue because we can go all day talking about this permissive ruleset and how the army rules present in the Index have not been supplanted yet as there is no new World Eaters codex to do. Merely existing in the CSM codex does not remove their entries and army rules as a standalone army and as you said it's a permissive ruleset. Something would have to. The new codex is heavily centered around giving legions extra benefits supplemental to what they had previously, even to the point that they still do not deny legacy items. You keep confusing what specific permission means and failing to understand what the rules for the Codex are actually replacing, which you can find in the very same FAQ we've all been discussing. Your interpretation is not right simply because you think it is.

Oh, you never touched on my Rhino example. I don't care about other armies that you think are entitled to use Index only, Space Marines in general have an updated datasheet in a newer codex that they may not use, and this codex does not include any wording prohibiting others from being affected. As you just finished ranting about, it's a permissive ruleset. You have no permission to use Rhinos now that they have a newer datasheet replacing the older one, especially given that Space Marines are not "other space marines factions" that are exempt from this rule. Yet funny how it does declare that Dark Angels are both a Space Marine faction and still their own faction simultaneously.

"In all future publications and official events though, it will be assumed that you’re using the most recent rules and Datasheets."

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
There are so many things wrong with that argument that no longer even know where to start anymore.

For everyone else, I highly recommend reading the actual Q&A page first (Found here: https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/07/05/codexes-your-questions-answered-july-5gw-homepage-post-2/ ). It's a lot less confusing and ambiguous as people make it out to be.

With that, I'm out.

And yet I've referred to it several times now as evidence of my own statements. So not exactly.

We have Daemons in the new CSM Codex. With cheaper points. Yet it's not the Daemons codex nor does it say anything to that effect. So do Daemons players have to use the new rules, or can they continue using their own Index rules for 2 pt Brimstones that deal 1d3 smite damage?

Your answer to that will determine whether you also think that Rhinos in a Grey Knight codex affect Space Marines (codex legions like Ultramarines for example) that aren't Grey Knights. -_-

Tyel wrote:
I don't understand this whole "Space Marines can't use Rhinos because its in the Grey Knight codex...???"

Short version:

- GW declares that the newest stuff replaces the older ones with future publications. There's a new Rhino. Only Grey Knights can use it. To say otherwise is to say that since Chaos Daemons are still not replaced, as they are their own faction in the Index (fitting since it replaces their old also their own faction rules) then the new CSM Codex cannot be a replacement to the Chaos Daemons rules, which means they'll be using their Index rules instead which are a bit better in some regards.

- To claim that the CSM Codex is now the Daemons codex that replaces the Index rules is to claim that Daemons are no longer a faction and may not be played, which is preposterous on its own, especially given what's on the front cover of the Index: Chaos and what's inside the Chaos Daemons army rules section, as WELL as pg 4 of the Index: Chaos where it describes Chaos Daemons as indeed an entirely separate faction.

- Should you decide that said Daemons must use the latest Daemons rules from the Codex Heretic Astartes despite not actually being a part of the Heretic Astartes faction then it the same as saying that all current Space Marines must use the Rhino from Codex Grey Knights despite not actually being a part of the Grey Knights faction.

 JohnnyHell wrote:
There's latest and there's being overly literal. The Grey Knight Rhino example is ridiculous. It will have a different Faction keyword anyway so there's no way a 'GK Rhino' overwrites a 'Space Marine Rhino'.

Welcome to Dakka, where people take things overly literally in an effort to say Chaos doesn't get cool toys but then contradicts themselves by not applying the same rules to their own toys.

Azuza001 wrote:
The latest rules for Space Marines are in the space marine codex, not the Grey knights codex. That argument is like saying an imperial guard power fist is cheaper so I am going to pay that cost for my space marine captain since it's the newest rules for it. (Once the ig codex comes out). That doesn't take into account a single guard with a powerfist sucks compared to a captain with one so yes, it makes since it's cheaper for the ig one. It's not as useful.

So you're saying we shouldn't take rules from a codex that isn't for our own faction. Good, I agree in intent, but don't you see how silly that makes this now?

Azuza001 wrote:
OK maybe that's not the best example but the point is you can't take stuff from one army and apply it to another. Doing so opens a pandoraa box of issues like what your saying with the Grey knights rhinos and do you honestly think that's what gw ment when they said that about use the latest data sheets? No, they mean use the latest for your army.

So you're confirming that Brimstones still are 2 pts each and deal 1d3 mortal wounds with Smite since Chaos Daemons faction players are not permitted to use the updated sheets from a codex that isn't their army. You're also confirming that Thousand Sons are not permitted to use the new Rubrics, being their own faction and specifically called out for it, which means Rubrics are still troops that mega smite on a 10+, not on an 11+. You're ALSO confirming that none of the other Space Marine factions are permitted to use the updated rules sheets and are relegated to Index entries and expensive power fists. Correct?

Azuza001 wrote:
Index vs codex again, the index is allowed for you to grab units that have war gear and weapons that the codex is no longer giving as an option. If there was a load out that the new beserkers could not take that the old ones could then you could use the index if you wanted. But elite vs troop isn't a war gear option so no, sorry it's not doable.

Elite vs Troop is an Army Rule option, not a datasheet or war gear option. Please cite the page where World Eaters army rules have been replaced with new ones. Mind you, Legion Tactics aren't Army Rules, for if they were, they'd replace the Heretic Astartes Army Rules as well. So we have an Index with army rules that prevent the nonsense I'm about to explain that for some reason you seem to think doesn't apply anymore.

Azuza001 wrote:
With the formations rules like they are I don't understand the issue here. Is it you are trying to get more command points? Or is it your trying to get objective secure? Beserkers are amazing now in the new codex, you can get like 4 attacks when charging per model and 3 attack rounds per squad in the one assault phase, objective is secure sir because we "Blood for the blood God" ed all the little runts who were camping on it makes a lot more sense for a beserker than we are going to hold back and hold this because it's what the boss wants.

Pretty sure people are simply looking for equality and fair treatment instead of being perceived as an underclass abused minority. If people want to be so snappy as to say that all old rules have been replaced then that includes the old World Eaters that state all units must have the mark of Khorne. The new rule for World Eaters armies does not exist or say such thing, and under Mark of Chaos alone will you find a statement that says World Eaters units have must have the Khorne keyword if they are able to do so. As Noise Marines are not able to do so, they are not required to be the mark of Khorne to join a World Eaters army. You may be able to argue for a Sorcerer who actually HAS the Mark of Chaos keyword which this rule pertains to but as Sorcerers cannot take the Khorne keyword... they also seem unable to do so. Nothing is stopping you from taking these units in a World Eaters army because there are no World Eaters army rules restricting what you may take. The only restrictions of any sort exist only in the Mark of Chaos keyword rules and aren't adamant about that being required to join. Plus, for any hypothetical Legion units who don't even have the Mark of Chaos, they wouldn't even care about this rule.



TLR version -- If you want to say quote lines from https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/07/05/codexes-your-questions-answered-july-5gw-homepage-post-2/ while ignoring lines like this "In all future publications and official events though, it will be assumed that you’re using the most recent rules and Datasheets" and then deciding for yourself when and how codex rules apply, then you're opening up loophole doors for others to exploit just so you can keep your toys working. Fact is, the Rhino datasheets in both the SM and Grey Knight codex replace the INDEX version of the Rhino as you've already claimed the Berzerkers do, as people claim the Rubrics do, as people claim the Daemons do. Yet all of them have differing circumstances about them and that simply cannot be the case. Then we have GW designers arguing that Dark Hereticus can be used in full because it's been updated globally for all users of the power pool, or in the SM version I'm sure you have your own power pool too, and playing games as such under those rules to add even more confusion to the pool. THEN we have Space Marine players that think they are the fanboy favorites and cite passages from rules that released when their Codex was the only one mentioning chapters by name and acting as though they're the only ones exempt from certain rules, because as you said it best Johnny:

 JohnnyHell wrote:
There's latest and there's being overly literal.

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
1.) Please cite where it states you may use rules from an older publication. The World Eaters legion rules are from an older publication and thus do not need to be "replaced". It simply disappears. Datasheets with specific Wargear Options were given an exception via the post here:

Please cite where it states the World Eaters legion rules are in the Index. It does not. It states the World Eaters Army Rules are in the Index. The Codex has neither of these, no legion rules or army rules, nothing even dictating what may be brought as part of a World Eaters detachment.

The World Eaters Army Rules place them on the same level as the Heretic Astartes Army Rules and the Chaos Daemons Army Rules. Where does it say that World Eaters as a faction have been completely replaced? Just because they are present in the Codex for access to Heretic relics and stratagems? Daemons are likewise "present" in the Codex. Does that mean Chaos Daemons Army Rules have also disappeared, according to you? Has the entire Chaos Daemons faction been relegated to just four units without proper rules or psychic powers plus a bunch of "old" Index datasheets that haven't yet been updated? All because the new Codex eradicates any rules that previously existed?

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
2.) Non "Codex: Space Marine" space marine armies were given an exception, posted here:

This is precisely the literal-minded favortism that has sparked this debate to begin with. That entire message was posted when Codex: Space Marines were the ONLY faction with a codex. Likewise, it doesn't matter if Non Codex: Space Marines factions have an exception, which you'll even see I mentioned above so thank you for repeating my arguments and making things known that were already known and accounted for, because I wanted him to answer 'yes' to each of my propositions. It establishes the basepoint for contradiction to follow later.

Thousand Sons being RAW using the Index for example confirms that we don't lose Rubrics as Troops nor the imposed penalty given to the Codex versions because we ignore those.

I highly recommend you stop posting the document that we've been discussing repeatedly in these threads, the document I even QUOTE from above, because people keep being selective on what they want to read from it and what they want to ignore. Either you accept the entire document or you can stop selectively citing only single paragraphs from it when there are others that support my reasoning. Such as the one that supports FUTURE publications overriding PAST publications.

--

What I feel you are failing to understand is that I'm catching people in a contradiction where they believe one thing but then change their tune for another. So to establish the basis of each of your arguments, we must first establish where your beliefs lie and show how they are contradictory to themselves.

 Scott-S6 wrote:
Why is this silly? It's far from the first time that there has been different datasheets for the same model in different codexes.

I found I was being quite clear why it was silly, you didn't quote the part where I explained that. The entire post is one set and each quote is merely to highlight relevant pieces of info as they become pertinent to the explanation. It meant that Daemons didn't have to accept their nerfs from the new Codex. They could continue using the Index if, as the quote you selected was attempting to establish, a person were claiming that we must reject changes from a codex that is not our own faction.

 Scott-S6 wrote:
Rhino datasheet in the GK codex is completely independent to the Rhino datasheet in the SM codex or can you cite anything to say that newer codexes for a faction overide older codexes for a different faction?

All pertinent info can be found here:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/07/05/codexes-your-questions-answered-july-5gw-homepage-post-2/

"In all future publications and official events though, it will be assumed that you’re using the most recent rules and Datasheets. It will also be assumed that you’re using the most up to date points for matched play, in this case, those included in the codex."

Which leaves the question, what overwrites what then? Identical datasheets overwrite each other, you're saying? Oh, I see, you're telling me that because GK and SM have DIFFERENT datasheets. Meaning they are NOT the same datasheets, despite having the same NAME. Though it does leave one kind of subjective on where it says that you have to have the same faction as the codex to update considering Daemons apparently have model updates in this new codex?

"The datasheets in the new codexes overwrite the same datasheets in the index books. You can certainly use units with updated datasheets alongside units from the index that have yet to be updated. Once a unit has been covered in the codex though, we assume you’re using the latest version."

I see, it's clear, we must overwrite entries with the same datasheets. But didn't you just say that two identically named datasheets can in fact be DIFFERENT datasheets? Well, the Chaos Index has two identically named Khorne Berzerker entries. Only one of those "same datasheets" was overwritten. Guess what the other one classifies Berzerkers as? Troops. Oh but surely we can't use such an outdated index entry... after all, all the existing rules vanished into void and ---

"While the indexes are designed to cover a long history of miniatures, the codexes are designed to give you rules for the current Warhammer 40,000 range. There are a few options in the indexes for some Characters and vehicles that are no longer represented in the Citadel range – certain Dreadnought weapons that don’t come in the box, or some characters on bikes, for example.
Don’t worry though, you can still use all of these in your games if you have these older models. In these instances, use the datasheet from the index, and the most recent points published for that model and its weapons (currently, also in the index).
They still gain all the army wide-bonuses for things like Chapter Tactics and can use Space Marines Stratagems and the like, so such venerable heroes still fit right in with the rest of your army."

O_O Wait, so I CAN use outdated datasheets? AND they still benefit from army wide-bonuses??? World Eaters Berzerker Troops confirmed.

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
Your argument still fails to grasp the basic fact that there is nothing allowing legacy rules. That part is a complete fabrication since you are unable to cite a source, whereas I cited an exception. Remember, 40k is permissive, not "I can do it because it didn't say I can't".

And you failed to understand what I already established in the final line. YOU TRIGGERED MY TRAP CARD!!! You're claiming the legacy rules don't exist. Well, Daemons are in the new codex. I guess their entire legacy rule section doesn't exist now.

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
As for being selective, your argument outright states "This is precisely the literal-minded favortism that has sparked this debate to begin with. That entire message was posted when Codex: Space Marines were the ONLY faction with a codex." to dismiss the SPECIFIC permission given to those three codexes. Since your entire argument is based around the fact that they don't have specific permission, as detailed in this quote:

Oh not at all, sweetheart, my argument is intended to be as preposterous as it sounds so that people will argue against it and seal themselves into a fate worse than death: admitting they are contradicting themselves. You also are claiming specific permission here for something posted to Warhammer-Community. Please cite what FAQ or Rulebook these "specific permissions" can be found in. Since I know you'll argue the point, I'll just skip ahead and trigger the trap card early... would this then mean that Thousand Sons do in fact receive the Dark Hereticus discipline, even though it was never added to the actual FAQ?

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/08/13/daemons-and-thousand-sons-in-codex-chaos-space-marines-aug-13gw-homepage-post-2/

Just to spare you the time it takes to right the insults, I am perfectly fine either way you judge it. One way I'm right about a contradiction, the other way you benefit me while simultaneously ignoring Dakka's FAQ/Rulebook shtick.

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
Also if you insist that article only pertains to Space Marines, read the article title. It's "CodexES: your questions answered", plural. Unless there had been a second space marine codex released since then, I doubt the document, in it's entirety, is refering solely to the space marine codex. It even has the picture of all four codexes (one of which hasn't even been released yet) as the title picture.

Funny how a document not central to Space Marines mentions, specifically, Index: Imperium 1, Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Space Wolves, Deathwatch, Grey Knights, Codex: Space Marines, Other Space Marines factions, the upcoming Redemptor Dreadnought, the Terminus Ultra Land Raider, Space Marine Stratagems, Chapter Tactics.... and also mentions Death Guard twice. Moving on.

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
As for Chaos Daemons having their datasheets replaced, yes. More or less. That's what today's FAQ did. The only exception for Chaos Daemon players is so that they didn't have to purchase the CSM codex to play (again, not my conjecture, they stated it on the post for the Errata).

Which highlights the issue that began before TODAY ever did. An issue so REAL that GW had to establish FAQ errata rule changes to accommodate the grave error on their part. Yet how easy it is to say in hindsight that they were always meant to be like this, yet when challenged repeatedly on these forums PRIOR to these FAQs it was a clear dismissal and insistence that one must still use the "most updated datasheets" with all the point and smite nerfs attached to Brimstones.

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
@ Scott-66: There isn't a separate datasheet for Grey Knights in the Index. If he told you otherwise then it was a fabrication. The Grey Knights section tells you to go grab the SM datasheet and just give it added rules.

Wow, way to go and provide proof that you don't even read the arguments of the people you try to disprove. I'm the one that actually pointed out that Grey Knights use the same entry as the Space Marines did. Thanks for simply confirming what I've already said while slighting me in the process.

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
On a related note, I just noticed something. Only Chaos Space Marines have "Army rules". At least the Space Marine's different factions don't. They have a section dedicated to them, but nothing that says "Army rules". This, of course, opens up a lot more interpretations but at least gives a precedence that, no, what applies to "Army rules" certainly do not apply to armies that had (had being the keyword here) their own codexes last edition.

Ding ding, point highlighted finally. We have no entries for Night Lords, Alpha Legion, Black Legion, yet we do have four unique entries for cult legions that rival our other factions of the same Index. An omen of what's yet to come or pure coincidence? Time shall tell... (I'm joking, it's almost blatantly obvious World Eaters get a codex next year with Angron's release).

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
Again, I would highly recommend all parties to read through the documents carefully, as a lot of what's being said here are going off of conjecture, heresay and flat out fabrication.

Roger that general, sir! The troops have been doing just that thus far, sir! I know you're used to typing "heresy" an awful lot but it's actually "hearsay" in this instance.

The only thing I've done thus far has been point out the instances where my statements have been rejected, a new statement or meaning invented, then that statement knocked to arrive at the same conclusion as my original statement. This is misrepresentation and makes it quite easy for the quoter to be dismissive. Many of the arguments being claimed against me are the same ones I established earlier in the thread while they feature a misrepresentation of my position to make them. I'm okay either way, just please be clear on what we can/cannot do and I'll just continue what I've been doing and shrink the visibility list.

 Talizvar wrote:
Anyway, I would like to call this for what it is: It seems too much like trying to cherry-pick from each source to bypass some balancing efforts that were considered in one document.

Or the Codex has nothing to do with balance and is the way it is purely because Elite Berzerkers are how Black Legion, Night Lords, etc would indeed take them. The World Eaters may well be getting back their troop mention once their codex releases, trashing any concepts from proponents of "For Balance!" and supporting the idea that it was always intended.

The real litmus test for this will be the Death Guard book. If cult Plague Marines are troops then you get bet every dollar you've got that the rest of the cult legions are supposed to have them too. The only argument against troop Berzerkers stems from the idea the World Eaters army rules have yet to receive an update, which will likely be in their codex, yet somehow the codex overrides them anyway. The original index treats the four legions as their own factions with their own rules that borrow from CSM rules. Little more, and that's how I'm sure GW will treat them in these coming books.

Oh, and fun tidbit. You actually can mix index armies with CSM stratagems. Per the Chaos codex, you only need to have any Chaos Space Marine Detachments to qualify for all of the stratagems. Field a single tiny patrol detachment of a sorcerer and some cultists and you instantly get access to all of the stratagems. As well as a Sorcerer. Heresy be damned. The limitations on what each stratagem can target are written directly on the cards and there is no need or precedence for segregating their effects according to detachment. Your general in one detachment can still buff some guys in another detachment, as long as they meet the requirements mentioned on the cards. In this way, Chaos Daemons can also benefit from CSM stratagems even though they are impossible to include in a Chaos Space Marines Detachment. As long as they meet the requirements, of course.

Captyn_Bob wrote:
No, the strategems are for chaos marines only.

Please cite where it states that. It doesn't. Anywhere.

Resolved.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/08/20/chaos-space-marines-and-grey-knights-updates-now-availablegw-homepage-post-4/

Berzerkers and Noise Marines are troops again for their Cults.