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I'm struggling to understand how the central government thought this was a good idea. Just let the damn referendum take place and then deal with it; there wouldn't be too much support for a separatist movement that can't even follow its own constitution. Instead they went pants-on-head and went for the police brutality option. Even disregarding the moral level, which Spain has clearly done, how is this a good plan?

It's so mind-bogglingly stupid that the only one that's disagreed with it being stupid in this thread is Dakka's resident fascist, for obvious reasons. Everyone else is appalled, no matter the political leanings. It's so monumentally dumb that I don't understand it at all.

 Sentinel1 wrote:
I haven't particularly read into the ins and outs of why this referendum is 'illegal', but I get the impression the Spanish government was prepared to let it go ahead knowing public support would back a unified Spain and therefore would be over before it got started. When they realised a lot more Catalonians would vote for independence they panicked badly. What a fudge up, dashing the hopes of the people, putting the government to shame and destroying confidence in Spanish police. If anything this will strengthen an independence movement and will certainly weaken if not break Spain's government. Heads will roll no doubt.

hopefully a fair bit of them will be in riot helmets.

Those wanting independence for Catalonia could not be happier right now. The Spanish state have fallen right into their trap by over-reacting.

 godardc wrote:

 lord_blackfang wrote:

 godardc wrote:
When you break the law, come the law enforcers.
What a surprise...
When you fight against heavily armoured guys, you get beaten.
What a surprise...

It is not because they are the ones getting beaten and wounded that they are right.
Eveyone everytime make the same mistake: just because someone bleeds does not make him right.

Even fascism has its defenders and apologists.

But you're correct about one thing, the protesters aren't automatically right just because they are being beaten. They would have been right regardless.

«fascim»
So what, let's disband every Police in the world, after all, they are just violent pigs !
Let disband our armies, too ! We will defend ourselves by the power of the flowers and love !
...
I can't believe there are people currently disagreeing with policemen for enforcing law and the Spanish state for fighting secessionism.
The secessionists are fighting the State and the Law, and as the State serve the people, those secessionists are fighting against the people


Automatically Appended Next Post:
You have to understand: they don't attack voters, they are not stopping a referendum.
No.
They are fighting against criminals. When you see a policeman beating a dealer, a raper or something else, do you disagree with the policeman ? Do you think he is wrong because he used violence to enforce the law ?
I don't think so.
Here, it is the same issue. People against peole, against law and order, and policemen, at their own risks, restoring order.

Your are a complete ignorant about all of this issue. Please, refrain from posting more of this ignorant gak.

Thanks.

 SlaveToDorkness wrote:
Waitwaitwait....is that policemen lighting Molotov cocktails?!?!?!

That's from the Battle of Kiev, back in 2014, Ukrainian revolt and all that.

Not to say that this wouldn't happen here, but there aren't nearly as many AKs running around. Then again, we have a guy who works for Kim Rocket Man, so maybe we could arrange something.

This whole thing is fethed up, they didn't come to our polling station, but this wont end nicely. Maybe tomorrow will be calm, maybe there'll be hits, but the day after there's a general strike all over Catalonia, and quite the chance of UDI in the next 48h (which is what was established would follow a Yes win).

I'm not really sure what to say, I'm just waiting for the results and bracing for what's coming.

And for people thinking that all of this will have any repercusion for the central goverment... I'm sorry to tell you, this is Spain we are talking about.

Probably the central goverment, Rajoy and the PP will only gain from all of this! And probably the corrupt Catalonian goverment will gain too fiscal exceptions to their autonomic comunity. This all "Independence" movement is a faux. The instigators of the "procés" known from the beginning that it wasn't gonna happen. They did it to gain more privileges, like the Vasque Country has.
The oligarchies win, and the pleb is the one to get mauled by the police.

 Galas wrote:
And for people thinking that all of this will have any repercusion for the central goverment... I'm sorry to tell you, this is Spain we are talking about.

Probably the central goverment, Rajoy and the PP will only gain from all of this! And probably the corrupt Catalonian goverment will gain too fiscal exceptions to their autonomic comunity. This all "Independence" movement is a faux. The instigators of the "procés" known from the beginning that it wasn't gonna happen. They did it to gain more privileges, like the Vasque Country has.
The oligarchies win, and the pleb is the one to get mauled by the police.

Thank you Galas for providing me with a local view into this situation. Too often I miss that perspective being an English speaker who mainly frequents English speaking forums. Your avatar seems more fitting today than possibly ever before I'm guessing, keep being a pig rather than a fascist.
As an outsider looking in I am bewildered and astounded by the reaction of Madrid and the response from other nations which I would expect to be more universally damning doesn't seem to be as such.

Update.

Some 761 injured according to BBC.

Its alot worse than it was before, that's just... Rediculous.

Of course that included all levels of injury but how many people. Many of those just voting on self determination.

 wana10 wrote:

 Galas wrote:
And for people thinking that all of this will have any repercusion for the central goverment... I'm sorry to tell you, this is Spain we are talking about.

Probably the central goverment, Rajoy and the PP will only gain from all of this! And probably the corrupt Catalonian goverment will gain too fiscal exceptions to their autonomic comunity. This all "Independence" movement is a faux. The instigators of the "procés" known from the beginning that it wasn't gonna happen. They did it to gain more privileges, like the Vasque Country has.
The oligarchies win, and the pleb is the one to get mauled by the police.

Thank you Galas for providing me with a local view into this situation. Too often I miss that perspective being an English speaker who mainly frequents English speaking forums. Your avatar seems more fitting today than possibly ever before I'm guessing, keep being a pig rather than a fascist.
As an outsider looking in I am bewildered and astounded by the reaction of Madrid and the response from other nations which I would expect to be more universally damning doesn't seem to be as such.

Yeah. This makes me pretty angry because the ones that bleed are the people that has 0 fault about all of this, but the political parties that are the creators of all this absurdity will only gain both political and economical benefits! And I say this being anti-independentist but in favour of a catalan referendum.
As others posters have said, they could easily just ignore the results of this referendum, or wait until people voted to just requise the urns and destroy all the votes. But no. They needed to enter the coleges and start hurting and hitting people.
You know the fun thing about all of this? They where shooting rubber balls. Rubbers balls are illegal in catalonia since 2012 after in the 15-M protest, a woman LOST an eye because one of those proyectiles. But the police didn't care about that, they used ILLEGAL equipement to REPRESS PEACEFULLY gattered people.

Honestly, is pretty infuriating to see how your country is being broken and divided by the political agendas of apatrid politicians that only want to keep being a bunch of corrupt sons of their mothers.

Pretty disgusting. This is why I'm an anti-statist. The State will never, ever willingly concede any power it gains back to its subjects. Honestly, this could happen anywhere.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
I dread to think what Trump's reaction to this will be...

You actually believe Trump has even a remote sense of awareness in this matter? That's adorable! He's probably going to think it has something to do with Kraft Catalina salad dressing being revolting!

 Galas wrote:

Your are a complete ignorant about all of this issue. Please, refrain from posting more of this ignorant gak.

Thanks.

If he couldn't post on things he was completely ignorant on, he'd never post again.

Not sure we'd lose anything to be fair.

 BigWaaagh wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
I dread to think what Trump's reaction to this will be...

You actually believe Trump has even a remote sense of awareness in this matter? That's adorable! He's probably going to think it has something to do with Kraft Catalina salad dressing being revolting!

I am sure he is saddened and dismayed that the Catalina Wine Mixer has come to this. Sad!

Ridiculous. The answer from the Spanish government would have been to veto the referendum in its own parliament on the grounds that it had not got the 2/3 majority required to pass. On top the the lawcourts.
Saying you cant have a referendum by force is something else.
Stopoping multiple repeat referendums is doable, and has a logic to it. They cant be allowed to be repeat until successful. However to deny one is a bad move, instead you make it fail in the ballot not because of a stick, then consider the matter closed. It is what the UK is doing and Canada is doing and it can work..

The Catalonian authorities will declare UDI and Spain will fall apart. The only good news is that Catalonia will be straight out the EU, the EU which is backing Spain will deny any transition period, and Catalans will want back in when the trade and funding dries up. The EU will say that is possible only via Madrid. I see this reversing quickly, Brexit is survivable, this is not. Spain now needs to back down and try and cool down, and deal with this through legislature only. Catalonia is relatively rich, but its still a club Med economy and it won't like being outside the EU one bit. Catharsis is key here. the EU is already united via the counter to Brexit, they need to extend this.

On aside this mess means is that the UK is inadvertently profiting. Division in Spain takes pressure off Gibraltar, Th same Spanish ministers bullying Catalonia was after the rock two days ago, and trouble with EU unity of any sort helps the UK post Brexit. The only winners in this sorry mess, and it had 0% to do with us and did need either of our glorious leaders May or Corbyn to do anything 'clever'.

 Galas wrote:
And for people thinking that all of this will have any repercusion for the central goverment... I'm sorry to tell you, this is Spain we are talking about.

Probably the central goverment, Rajoy and the PP will only gain from all of this! And probably the corrupt Catalonian goverment will gain too fiscal exceptions to their autonomic comunity. This all "Independence" movement is a faux. The instigators of the "procés" known from the beginning that it wasn't gonna happen. They did it to gain more privileges, like the Vasque Country has.
The oligarchies win, and the pleb is the one to get mauled by the police.

Yeah, and if elections were called now the PP would gain seats. It has been a long standing truth that hitting Catalonia wins you votes elsewhere while not hurting you in any meaningful way.
Not that our guys aren't bad, lots of years of making deals with the governing party in Madrid, offering our votes in parliament in exchange for concessions (and quite possibly legal immunity, as their corruption enterprises were only "discovered" once the whole independence thing started booming).

'Tis a sad state of affairs, but I don't really care anymore. Tomorrow they will try to (maybe succeed at) imprisoning our politicians. So what. This won't stop just by putting four (or 400, or a 4000) guys in jail. They probably want somehting like the bad days of the basque conflict, when policemen were murdered on the streets but they could use that as a boogeyman to distract everyone.

I am confused. Did you really think Spain would allow the wealthiest portion of it's nation to just secede?

Yes that's not going to happen.

 Galas wrote:

Honestly, is pretty infuriating to see how your country is being broken and divided by the political agendas of apatrid politicians that only want to keep being a bunch of corrupt sons of their mothers.

Catalonia is a culturally distinct region with a very long history, the goal of Catalan independence has real merit.

Politicians are politicians but writing of the entire endeavour as little more than a political stunt seems to be pretty disingenuous to me.

Saw this cool map courtesy of Wikileaks.

@JulianAssange: Map of Catalonian polling stations open vs successfully closed by Spanish state police. Green = open. Red = closed.

 Frazzled wrote:
I am confused. Did you really think Spain would allow the wealthiest portion of it's nation to just secede?

Yes that's not going to happen.

You can send armies in, or heavy handed police, but that doesn't stop a popular uprising, it guarantees it.
You allow one referendum, and one only, with no mandate of themselves to call a second and make sure they pro independence faction loses it by whatever method is best.

Spain could have won the vote outright. Catalonia would be straight out the EU with no parachute. Many people decided to vote out because of the threats. Also note that the referendum is also a built in dissolution of the monarchy, an all or nothing option. That higher bar and higher risk.

Where the feth is Antifa? They should be in Spain, not America.

 Orlanth wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:
I am confused. Did you really think Spain would allow the wealthiest portion of it's nation to just secede?

Yes that's not going to happen.

You can send armies in, or heavy handed police, but that doesn't stop a popular uprising, it guarantees it.
You allow one referendum, and one only, with no mandate of themselves to call a second and make sure they pro independence faction loses it by whatever method is best.

Spain could have won the vote outright. Catalonia would be straight out the EU with no parachute. Many people decided to vote out because of the threats. Also note that the referendum is also a built in dissolution of the monarchy, an all or nothing option. That higher bar and higher risk.

That's not what your own history shows, nor the history of Spain, of Europe, or anywhere.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
Saw this cool map courtesy of Wikileaks.

@JulianAssange: Map of Catalonian polling stations open vs successfully closed by Spanish state police. Green = open. Red = closed.

Oops. That means there will be enough successful vote for the result to flag as valid.

This is such an incompetent feth up I have to briefly wonder if the policing was false flagged somehow. Were the police bussed in from outside? I can see smacking a few heads to prevent a ballot is a good way for quietly pro-Catalan independence policemen to get what they want.

 Orlanth wrote:

You allow one referendum, and one only, with no mandate of themselves to call a second...

By that logic the UK would still be in the EU.

 Frazzled wrote:

 Orlanth wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:
I am confused. Did you really think Spain would allow the wealthiest portion of it's nation to just secede?

Yes that's not going to happen.

You can send armies in, or heavy handed police, but that doesn't stop a popular uprising, it guarantees it.
You allow one referendum, and one only, with no mandate of themselves to call a second and make sure they pro independence faction loses it by whatever method is best.

Spain could have won the vote outright. Catalonia would be straight out the EU with no parachute. Many people decided to vote out because of the threats. Also note that the referendum is also a built in dissolution of the monarchy, an all or nothing option. That higher bar and higher risk.

That's not what your own history shows, nor the history of Spain, of Europe, or anywhere.

Times have changed. What was normal policy then is not so now.

Pseudomonas wrote:

 Galas wrote:

Honestly, is pretty infuriating to see how your country is being broken and divided by the political agendas of apatrid politicians that only want to keep being a bunch of corrupt sons of their mothers.

Catalonia is a culturally distinct region with a very long history, the goal of Catalan independence has real merit.

Politicians are politicians but writing of the entire endeavour as little more than a political stunt seems to be pretty disingenuous to me.

All regions of Spain are culturally distinct regions with a very long history. Asturias, Navarra and Galicia too. Spanish is very diverse nation and thats where his beauty resides. The goal of Catalan independence has no merit, because is something built in the 2007 to push agains't the central Goverment to gain more benefits. The other Catalanonian independence movement was in the Second Republic and his had 0 to do with this independece movement of now.

Of course theres people that truly believes in Catalonian self-determination. Theres people like that too in Galicia, or even in Andalucía and Granada. But nations aren't build based in a nationalistic ideology, they are a natural developtment of history. Catalonian independence is based in a nationalistic xenophobia.

I'm from Galicia. I love his lenguage, his traditions, and history, but I know that I'm Spanish too, as Spanish as someone form Extremadura or Baleares. The Galician independence movement is built in the idea of the "Spanic" opresor, in the romantic pass of the Celt bard. Mythology used to built a xenophobic nationalistic movement, the same has been done in Catalonia.

And after saying that, I'll repeat my contempt from how the central goverment and the police has act in Catalonia, and even if I'm anti independentist I believe that the referendum should have been made.

 Galas wrote:
The goal of Catalan independence has no merit

Much of the population of Catalonia seems to disagree with you.

Pseudomonas wrote:

 Orlanth wrote:

You allow one referendum, and one only, with no mandate of themselves to call a second...

By that logic the UK would still be in the EU.

We had a referendum just after we joined as confirmation. the next was 40 years later. That is different it the Catalan independence movement lost they could have another attempt in 2050 or thereabouts, if they lost and retried sooner Spain has to put foot down and say no, on th grounds that the referendum has already occurred. The UK has to have the balls to do this also, and Canada has already done this.

Pseudomonas wrote:

 Galas wrote:
The goal of Catalan independence has no merit

Much of the population of Catalonia seems to disagree with you.

Of course, thats why I'm pro-referendum even if at the same time I'm anti independentist. Personally I'll prefer a Federal Republic for Spain.

Pseudomonas wrote:

 Orlanth wrote:

You allow one referendum, and one only, with no mandate of themselves to call a second...

By that logic the UK would still be in the EU.

We ARE still in the EU.

 Orlanth wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:

 Orlanth wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:
I am confused. Did you really think Spain would allow the wealthiest portion of it's nation to just secede?

Yes that's not going to happen.

You can send armies in, or heavy handed police, but that doesn't stop a popular uprising, it guarantees it.
You allow one referendum, and one only, with no mandate of themselves to call a second and make sure they pro independence faction loses it by whatever method is best.

Spain could have won the vote outright. Catalonia would be straight out the EU with no parachute. Many people decided to vote out because of the threats. Also note that the referendum is also a built in dissolution of the monarchy, an all or nothing option. That higher bar and higher risk.

That's not what your own history shows, nor the history of Spain, of Europe, or anywhere.

Times have changed. What was normal policy then is not so now.

(Thinks of list of civil wars in the last decade)...ok sure...