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 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Aenarian wrote:

grouchoben wrote:
Really? A nerf to Krieg? thank the lord they finally reigned us in, I was beginning to feel bad! (Krieg can no longer take any traits or relics from the codex, despite being <AM>.)

Seriously, this heavy nerfing of Commissars does actually leave Krieg in an enviable position in terms of morale resistance.

We are not allowed to take any of the regiment-specific traits and stuff, but nothing about the general case, which I guess is still up in the air.

Actually, I would say it's less up in the air than before, as GW now had the opportunity to say it was allowed, and then didn't say it wasn't. Either this is a missed opportunity for them to spell out intent, or it is intended that any of the generic AM stratagems are permitted.

In all honesty, from what I've seen, it just becomes an exercise in how you are allowed to build your armies. Are pure DKoK allowed, as they are still AM? Are pure codex AM allowed? Are you allowed when you mix from both? What if you have 9 units from the codex and one from the FW index? If you build a pure AM (but not DKoK or Elysian) detachment from units solely from the FW-list, such as Superheavies or Fliers or (if an HQ gets added) any other detachment, are you allowed to use AM rules from the codex if you declare them as e.g. CADIANS?

Where the line is drawn is a question I've asked before, and I've never really gotten a satisfactory answer. I'm happy either way due to the group I play with, but having access to more than 3 stratagems and warlord traits would be nice, which I guess goes for most of the races.

Edit: And just for why they didn't clarify it while they had the chance: because the people writing rules at GW is notorious for this, and whether or not this is intended is something I don't know. They may have just thought that it was clear as day we had access to the codex rules (as long as we don't use the regiment-specific ones). Maybe they didn't think about it. I guess we'll see.

Oh my bad! Reading comprehension failure! Glad to see my dagger-led engineers are back on the menu

So.. the beautiful times of over-correction are back!
Meanwhile, see what Iyanden got. An unkillable old-style commissar.

 Kaiyanwang wrote:
So.. the beautiful times of over-correction are back!
Meanwhile, see what Iyanden got. An unkillable old-style commissar.

They might be changed as well if the community revolts against it like they did now.

 Aenarian wrote:

 Kaiyanwang wrote:
So.. the beautiful times of over-correction are back!
Meanwhile, see what Iyanden got. An unkillable old-style commissar.

They might be changed as well if the community revolts against it like they did now.

Well, I can certainly agree that the community is revolting.

 Kaiyanwang wrote:
So.. the beautiful times of over-correction are back!
Meanwhile, see what Iyanden got. An unkillable old-style commissar.

The difference is that over-corrections are now in a weekly or monthly fasion, instead of every 4-5 years (And thats a good thing. Not the over-correction part, but that at least now they are trying to balance in a regular basis)

And the problem with commisar wasn't the commisar itself, but his objetive. Eldars don't have conscripts. Making your 20-man Guardian Squad inmune to morale isn't as powerfull as a 30 man conscript blob.

 daedalus wrote:

 Aenarian wrote:

 Kaiyanwang wrote:
So.. the beautiful times of over-correction are back!
Meanwhile, see what Iyanden got. An unkillable old-style commissar.

They might be changed as well if the community revolts against it like they did now.

Well, I can certainly agree that the community is revolting.

But how else were we to know that moving zero inches means you moved less than half of your Movement value? THESE THINGS ARE IMPORTANT!

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
I will say I'm not a fan of how laurels of command works. Basically means you now resolve the first order entirely before doing the second. This means if you use a shooting order like "Take Aim", you would need to fire and then issue another order, which I guess would be something like move!move!move! I can already see someone trying to argue that now it'll let you shoot twice by using something like FRFSRF then issuing take aim! After FRFSRF has resolved

Take aim doesn't actually tell you to fire, so "resolving" it doesn't actually shoot. Very few of the orders actually tell you to resolve an action, most of them are just "can reroll this phase" or "change weapon profile" or something.

 Trickstick wrote:

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
I will say I'm not a fan of how laurels of command works. Basically means you now resolve the first order entirely before doing the second. This means if you use a shooting order like "Take Aim", you would need to fire and then issue another order, which I guess would be something like move!move!move! I can already see someone trying to argue that now it'll let you shoot twice by using something like FRFSRF then issuing take aim! After FRFSRF has resolved

Take aim doesn't actually tell you to fire, so "resolving" it doesn't actually shoot. Very few of the orders actually tell you to resolve an action, most of them are just "can reroll this phase" or "change weapon profile" or something.

Yup--that was a Good Change from the previous iterations.

As a guard player with a ridiculous number of infantry I'm pretty much fine with all of this. They probably should have done something better with the commissar wording though. It should be at least an option to re-roll morale if you choose to, rather than irrespective of the result.

I think it's fine that conscripts received a nerf though. The one in the guard codex didn't really nerf them much at all. I don't think they needed both of these changes though. Breaking their morale immunity would have been enough on its own.

 Kanluwen wrote:

But how else were we to know that moving zero inches means you moved less than half of your Movement value? THESE THINGS ARE IMPORTANT!

So, sometimes I'll make jokes. Sometimes I'll echo the old Gwar bit about how there were some missions that left you stuck in limbo, because you could never start playing the game, because they never told you to roll to start the game.

I genuinely don't actually understand how this needed to be a thing that needed to be clarified. This is literally the reason we can't have nice things.

 Galas wrote:

 Kaiyanwang wrote:
So.. the beautiful times of over-correction are back!
Meanwhile, see what Iyanden got. An unkillable old-style commissar.

The difference is that over-corrections are now in a weekly or monthly fasion, instead of every 4-5 years (And thats a good thing. Not the over-correction part, but that at least now they are trying to balance in a regular basis)

And the problem with commisar wasn't the commisar itself, but his objetive. Eldars don't have conscripts. Making your 20-man Guardian Squad inmune to morale isn't as powerfull as a 30 man conscript blob.

I found that there are details that show they are still quite sloppy. If I got it right, the reroll is enforced.

A good clean-up of what I think were some unintended things folks were doing (Take Cover on a tank, some of the Ogryn tricks) and a great clean-up of the Grinding Advance rule. The approach to the Commissars is good in what it does to the Conscripts - the internet might come to a Grinding Halt until people find a new chew-toy.

I think that Commissars still make sense for line infantry. Lets say you have a Lord Commissar with three squads within 6". They now have Ld 9. Let's say that a squad loses 3 models. On their own you would lose at least one model 1/3 of the time, but with a Lord Commissar within 6" you are immune to Morale when you lose 3 models or less. That's not terrible. Lets say that a squad loses 5 models. Without a Commissar at least one model runs on a 3+, with up to 4 models potentially running. With the Lord Commissar, though, you are now "safe" on a roll of 1 to 4 and get a re-roll on 5 and 6 with the loss of one model (of course, you might roll 5 or 6 again). Its still a downgrade to the Commissar's effect, but I don't think its enough to rage-throw my Commissar models out just yet. I'll keep running'em to keep my infantry in line and keep watch on those Psykers...Plus they have cool hats.

Cheers

I can't believe how many people are complaining about these nerfs here. 3 Conscripts blobs were virtually indestructible for many non-tailored armies. Yeah yeah yadda yadda there were hard counters but many armies struggled to get to actually use the counter.

I kind of like this new GW policy, release borderline broken rules, let them fly for 3+ months and then nerf it to the ground hard.
So many hardcore games probably managed to double down on conscripts already.

I'm lucky that I'm so slow with my projects that I don't even bother to jump biggest broken things available.

So it appears they simply just straight up just broke Commissars. Seems standard GW practice.

Thats probably going to need yet another change or theyll just never get taken. They probably needed a tweak, but this makes them literally pointless.

Sad that they didnt fix any of the Russ variants like Vanquishers or Exterminators so they might actually see a table. Thanks GW

Also they didnt tone down the Shadowsword at all, which could probably use it.

I highly doubt that the execution not being optional was an oversight. I think that it was intended. If a guard runs then the commissar shoots, doesn't matter if this only makes the situation worse.

 Kaiyanwang wrote:

 Galas wrote:

 Kaiyanwang wrote:
So.. the beautiful times of over-correction are back!
Meanwhile, see what Iyanden got. An unkillable old-style commissar.

The difference is that over-corrections are now in a weekly or monthly fasion, instead of every 4-5 years (And thats a good thing. Not the over-correction part, but that at least now they are trying to balance in a regular basis)

And the problem with commisar wasn't the commisar itself, but his objetive. Eldars don't have conscripts. Making your 20-man Guardian Squad inmune to morale isn't as powerfull as a 30 man conscript blob.

I found that there are details that show they are still quite sloppy. If I got it right, the reroll is enforced.

Yeah, it should be optional, or ideally, roll a D6 and reduce the number of morale casualties for the number you rolled. Or this new rule be just for Conscripts.
Give them 3-4 more tries, and I'm sure they'll get it right!

 MrMoustaffa wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
GW should have worded it so it's not mandatory. Then it's at least less likely to actually HURT you from having. Kinda silly to have rule that's more likely to hurt you than not. Especially when it's supposed to be advantage rather than disadvantage to balance otherwise too good model.

But that's not how commissars work in the background though. Unless command tells them to fall back they're going to make you stick around whether you like it or not. Aside from very rare exceptions they don't really go "oh wow Bob you're right, that IS a really scary carnifex! You are excused private, feel free to retire to the rear."

It is annoying that the guardsmen still take an additional casualty for 0 gain but it does give an actual trade off to how they work now.

I think it would've been a good rule for just conscripts getting it personally, and everything else staying the same, but here we are.

Fluffwise commissars are there to make troops bolder in face of fighting. Now it's basically opposite. Okay LD8 is nice but the special rule makes them _more cowardly_ most of the time. That's illogical.

Without being compulsory effect is that rule is going in long run result less guys running.

More guys running or less guy running. Which one is fluffier result for that rule?

I think that the Commissar change is fine, it just makes it more important to pass the test than it was previously. It makes Lord Commissars a bit more of a reasonable take, with the +1ld. Also, banners and other +1ld buffs are more useful too.

Guard needed a weakness - now they have one.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Guard needed a weakness - now they have one.

Does this mean you and the rest are going to finally stop bitching? If so, I'll accept it in a heartbeat.

Morale needs to be the weakness of the horde armies. Only Tyranids and in less way Orks suffered it.

IG have still a strong morale if they use their tools right. But at least now they need to do something to TRY to keep their men in line.

How to get you to buy books only to have them invalidated within weeks, twice, in the space of 6 months.

I wonder if this responsiveness to such high levels of whinge is going to be a regular thing or if it only applies to IG and we end up with another 4 years of utterly broken xenos.

IG 'weakness' is the fact they don't get 4's across the entire stat line like 80% of the game does. Most marine text removed. reds8n take that for granted.

Stat lines are only numbers, that type of "weakness" comes down to point costs.

The "Morale" weakness is more of a desing-phylosopy type of problem, not a point-cost problem.

It doesn't matter how you point costs units, if an army is inmune to morale it is inmune to morale. And the reality was that Morale was more impactfull for "elite" armies like Chaos Space Marines, Eldar, etc... than for Imperial Guard.

 Vaktathi wrote:

Sad that they didnt fix any of the Russ variants like Vanquishers or Exterminators so they might actually see a table. Thanks GW

Would anyone actually take a Vanquisher or Exterminator if the weapon itself was free? I'm not sure I would.

@MarNZ: Sorry Imperial factions no longer get a free pass on being overpowered this edition. They get to be balanced and re-balanced, just like every other faction. Also, you're deluding yourself if you think GW won't continue to balance the game, no matter what faction it is (say, Xenos) - as well as if you think the loss of Morale immune Conscripts [a mistake in the first place on a 3ppm model with those stats] will suddenly invalidate all the other top tier options AM has available.

I, for one, and glad Morale actually matters now - the only models that should even consider getting a free immunity would be extremely low (<5) model count, expensive, elite squads.

Morale kill should be a reasonable way of dealing with large, low priced, chaff models.

Now Night Lords will be usable agaisn't Imperial Guard!

 Galas wrote:
Now Night Lords will be usable agaisn't Imperial Guard!

Indeed, that makes me happy.

So...Commissars are now basically dead. 31 points minimum for +1 leadership and the ability to kill more members of your squad than you would have lost in the first place. They should have left that rule for Conscripts only and kept regular Infantry Squads with the old rules, or at the least provide a leadership buff after blamming someone due to "inspiration".

And Send in the Next Wave costs reinforcement points? Do other codices with respawn abilities cost reinforcement points? I think that would be Chaos and Admech?

Other than that, the faq seems fine to me, and cleared up a few issues and clarified some abusive mechanics like Ogryn conga lines.

Oh well, at least with the speed of clarifications here, it means that anything they overnerfed might get fixed sooner rather than later, and anything undernerfed will get adjusted as well.

kurhanik wrote:
So...Commissars are now basically dead. 31 points minimum for +1 leadership and the ability to kill more members of your squad than you would have lost in the first place. They should have left that rule for Conscripts only and kept regular Infantry Squads with the old rules, or at the least provide a leadership buff after blamming someone due to "inspiration".

And Send in the Next Wave costs reinforcement points? Do other codices with respawn abilities cost reinforcement points? I think that would be Chaos and Admech?

Other than that, the faq seems fine to me, and cleared up a few issues and clarified some abusive mechanics like Ogryn conga lines.

Oh well, at least with the speed of clarifications here, it means that anything they overnerfed might get fixed sooner rather than later, and anything undernerfed will get adjusted as well.

31 points is still a cheap elite slot - plus the +1 can matter; it's spread across multiple squads. Not saying it's the greatest thing ever, but it's 31 points; so it works.

Regarding reinforcement points; If it's adding an entirely new squad to the table, it costs points. If it's adding previously dead models to an existing squad, it does not.

It's consistent across other factions, at least from the rules I've seen.