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As an ork player I think the problem of negative modifiers to BS is a non-issue for us. If stacked negative modifiers to BS becomes a big part of the meta, then it will be to the advantage of armies with a strong melee component and access to cost efficient smite. Chaos, Orks and Tyranids top that list. Tau and Guard will suffer.

Orks has a severe disadvantage against fliers with airborne and hard-to-hit, because they combine BOTH immunity to assault and a negative to-hit modifier. But those fliers has been reigned in through other means.

Can't Orks charge flyers with Stormboyzs and destroy them in meele?

Aren't stormboyz one of the best Ork units? But they have a very bad point-realmoney ratio.

 Galas wrote:
Can't Orks charge flyers with Stormboyzs and destroy them in meele?

Aren't stormboyz one of the best Ork units? But they have a very bad point-realmoney ratio.

Stormboyz are good. There are players out here that field them and do well. I don't know if i'd charge a flyer with them. Seems like with Orks i'd just ignore the flyers altogether.

In regards to points to realmoney, Orks are pretty bad regardless of unit choice.

Yeah, thats why I say that theres a point where "Just make them cheaper in points" makes an army suffer the Genestealer-Cult syndrome.

Tyranids and Orks are near that. And we all know Horde armies are more expensive, money-wise, to collect. But theres a point you make it nearly impossible to do so in a reasonable amount of time or money. In many cases Orks (Normally vehicles) shouldn't be cheaper, just make them better so they are worth their points.

 Galas wrote:
Can't Orks charge flyers with Stormboyzs and destroy them in meele?

Aren't stormboyz one of the best Ork units? But they have a very bad point-realmoney ratio.

Yes, you need to spend nearly £80 for a useful unit of them.

Also nids have the cult that can bolster them. And now with the blood brother thing a nid army can take russ alongside their gaunts.

 Galas wrote:
Can't Orks charge flyers with Stormboyzs and destroy them in meele?

Aren't stormboyz one of the best Ork units? But they have a very bad point-realmoney ratio.

Stormboyz are great - They're an Ork Boy with a rokkit strapped to the back; 8ppm vs 6ppm (33% more), but much faster movespeed, can advance and charge (but has a 1/6 chance per model to lose a boy in the squad) and flyer. However, they lose out on Objective Secured, as well as the +1A while 20+ models remain in the unit, so...

If you need something choppy to hit the enemies lines, and fast; they seem like a solid go-to. That said, they lose out at the top end in number of attacks (which matters since you can "Da Jump" boyz), plus can't hold objectives versus other faction's troops.

When it comes to punching aircraft - someone did the math once, and honestly; they're pretty inefficient, due to the high T and Sv that vehicles have. That said, if you get real lucky, you might have a shot of taking down a place. Plus, it's just a hilarious mental image; a bunch of boyz chasing a plane and punching the pilots.

As far as real-money goes... convert! You're still going to need a bunch of boyz as the base models; but, that's just orks in general - we need a lot of models, but can get away with a lot of customization and plasti-card crafting too.

fe40k wrote:
Plus, it's just a hilarious mental image; a bunch of boyz chasing a plane and punching the pilots.

The Space Marine Videogame predicted the future. I see nothing bad about units with jump and jet packs being able to punch flyers to the dead.





I remember a Night Lord art with some Raptors destroying the engines and killing the pilots of a IG Valkyrie, and it looked pretty sick! Now we can do that kind of thing on the tabletop!

Most of the negative to hit modifiers stop functioning within 12". Which honestly is where most Orks want to be.

Grots, Mek guns, big guns, stationary flash gitz(lol). All are effectively BS4+ so can still hit with a -2.

To hit modifiers in a d6 system is not good design and its even worse when you give modifiers out like candy. It makes for REALLY difficult balance when you have units that can vary from hitting on 4s all the way to being impossible to hit the target. While it impacts Orks the most, its not so much an Ork problem but general game mechanics issue.

Cap it at bs5+ for everybody.

However, this thread is just wishlisting if you don't let GW know:

gamefaqs@gwplc.com

 Marmatag wrote:


Orks, Tyranids, Blood Angels, Space Wolves, Grey Knights, etc. are all hurting. Although Orks are doing better than the other armies in this list. Truly.

Orks players sometimes do quite good in tournaments only because of the rock-paper-scissor syndrome. They all field green tides and when they place it's because they've faced lists that suffered hordes of infantries. You have also to consider that tournaments usually have time limits and the games end by turn 3, which is very different from a real 40k game. Those greentides may be very good in scoring and surviving for 3 turns, but in an entire game they'll perform quite worse.

Orks shooting should be a thing. In fact the ork codex has basically half the units that are shoot oriented, maybe even more than melee ones. With the exception of a few profile that should be improved (KMK, snazzguns and grotzookas) I don't want better weapons or even better BS, orks should only have the possibility to bring more of them. The concept of "more boyz" should be applied to all the other units in the codex in order to make them viable and a solid alternative to the t-shirt save spam.

I played a guy who fielded like 200 boyz or how ever you spell it... got the second then charge, and well let’s just say he did just fine with crappy shooting. I think the 5+ to hit for shooting before modifiers is just fine... in lore Orks are not known to be marksman anyway.

Personally I say no 5+ cap. If I’m a <insert warrior> who has a piece of equipment or trains to a standard to make it harder for my enemy to hit me...especially if my enemy can’t shoot like an Ork, spraying and praying would be more accurate engaging targets that do not seek cover or are not concealed, therefore I say no cap because Orks accuracy would only continue to diminish with professional “warriors” seeking cover and concealment. So no cap.

 Galas wrote:
Can't Orks charge flyers with Stormboyzs and destroy them in meele?

Aren't stormboyz one of the best Ork units? But they have a very bad point-realmoney ratio.

Sure, though engaging them is usually pretty difficult due to how much movement Flyers have.

However if they do manage to close in, they're not exactly brilliant against them. Storm-raven is a pretty common sight in 8th, so let's work from that. T7 and 14 Wounds with a 3+ save means Stormboyz need to cause, on average, 42 wounds to bring a Stormraven down. Stormboyz wound the Raven on a 5+, so they need to hit it 126 times to cause 42 wounds. Since Stormboyz hit on a 3+, that works out to 189 attacks. Since a Stormboy has 3 attacks, that works out to 63 Stormboyz, or slightly over 3 full squads, to take out a single Stormraven.

You can throw in a Nob with a Power Klaw, but on average they do around 2 dmg a turn, so not a noticeable increase.

I played a guy who fielded like 200 boyz or how ever you spell it... got the second then charge, and well let’s just say he did just fine with crappy shooting. I think the 5+ to hit for shooting before modifiers is just fine... in lore Orks are not known to be marksman anyway.

No-one disputes that spamming Boyz is an effective way to play Orks. It most certainly is, and is basically the only way to play the Index effectively. However, half the Index are shooting units, and currently, they're simply not worth taking. The increasing amount of negative hit modifiers also penalizes Orks most of all armies and renders these units even more worthless. Other playstyles other than spamming Boyz should be viable.

 lolman1c wrote:
[I don't mean worse in how they play, i mean worse in how gw has dumbed them down into just orks.... nothing is special about them they're just the enemy of the imperium! It feels like we've been written by an imperial scout who doesn't understand ork society than an actual ork. At least Eldar have a huge list of factions to pick from each with their own style. Right now they're is next to no reason to have the tag <klan> in our keywords.

Well you can bet whatever you like that klan's gets faction traits. Eldar didn't have those before codex either. There was no reason for eldar to have tag craftworld for them before codex.

But sigh at these days when you need special snowflake rules for different factions to differentiate them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

fe40k wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
Orks need a buff - I totally and wholeheartedly agree with that statement.

But to me it should be centered around improving tactical effectiveness rather than just "more boyz!" or "better ballistic skill!" Because Orks will never be a shooting army, and you'll never have more bodies than the other horde lists.

I would ALSO say that *all* melee focused armies need a buff.

Orks, Tyranids, Blood Angels, Space Wolves, Grey Knights, etc. are all hurting. Although Orks are doing better than the other armies in this list. Truly.

If you have no shooting element, then what tactics are there, other then "charge!"?

The game's health would be significantly improved if every army could go melee, or shooting, focused - just because you're good at one aspect of the game doesn't mean you shouldn't be able to compete in others (as long as there were positives/negatives for what you were doing) - actually, Chapter/Klan/Craftworld/etc. shouldn't just be a positive, there should be negatives too. [+1X, -1X; +special rule, -special rule; etc, depending on what you chose.] That way, mixing armies could give you different strategic/tactical elements - and if you wanted to run a generic/"unaligned" army, that wouldn't be a penalty either; you'd be more balanced at the cost of specialization.

I will agree though that all melee focused armies do need a buff; close combat doesn't have the reach or effectiveness that shooting does.

Don't think he said orks should have no shooting elements. Just that orks aren't and shouldn't be.

If game has no units that shoot with BS5+ that just dulls armies down. The scale of values are too narrow as it is. What needs to be done is work around with that restriction.

Don't think he said orks should have no shooting elements. Just that orks aren't and shouldn't be.

Why exactly? Orks have long been established in the fluff as liking to shoot; this entire website is named after their predilection for doing exactly that. Lootas, Tankbustas, Deffkoptas, all 3 types of Buggies, Burna Boyz, Big Gunz, Mek Gunz, all four flyers, Flash Gitz; these are all units that are dedicated to shooting. The fact that they have some melee capabilities too no more makes them melee units than Devestators having WS3+ and Str 4 makes them melee units. It's particularly telling that the Gorkanaut, Morkanaut and Stompa, the largest war machines available to the current Ork army, one of which is an avatar of their gods, are festooned with ranged weapons. In fact, there's no option to run them without these weapons. The Battlewagon has double the ranged options to its melee ones. Even units focused on close combat sport guns, like Biker Boyz and Killa Kans.

All of which you say shouldn't count, because Orks are apparently a melee army that isn't allowed to focus on shooting because of reasons.

BS5+ is fine with orks, I don't think orks players actually want to improve units that currently have BS5+ to BS4+. We just need way more shots for the current prices.

In close combat orks can throw buckets of dice, they should be able to do the same in the shooting phase as well.

 Glane wrote:

Don't think he said orks should have no shooting elements. Just that orks aren't and shouldn't be.

Why exactly? Orks have long been established in the fluff as liking to shoot; this entire website is named after their predilection for doing exactly that. Lootas, Tankbustas, Deffkoptas, all 3 types of Buggies, Burna Boyz, Big Gunz, Mek Gunz, all four flyers, Flash Gitz; these are all units that are dedicated to shooting. The fact that they have some melee capabilities too no more makes them melee units than Devestators having WS3+ and Str 4 makes them melee units. It's particularly telling that the Gorkanaut, Morkanaut and Stompa, the largest war machines available to the current Ork army, one of which is an avatar of their gods, are festooned with ranged weapons. In fact, there's no option to run them without these weapons. The Battlewagon has double the ranged options to its melee ones. Even units focused on close combat sport guns, like Biker Boyz and Killa Kans.

All of which you say shouldn't count, because Orks are apparently a melee army that isn't allowed to focus on shooting because of reasons.

They are said to have liking for loud noises and big guns. Not that they are super shooty army that should be outshooting IG all day.

tneva82 wrote:

 Glane wrote:

Don't think he said orks should have no shooting elements. Just that orks aren't and shouldn't be.

Why exactly? Orks have long been established in the fluff as liking to shoot; this entire website is named after their predilection for doing exactly that. Lootas, Tankbustas, Deffkoptas, all 3 types of Buggies, Burna Boyz, Big Gunz, Mek Gunz, all four flyers, Flash Gitz; these are all units that are dedicated to shooting. The fact that they have some melee capabilities too no more makes them melee units than Devestators having WS3+ and Str 4 makes them melee units. It's particularly telling that the Gorkanaut, Morkanaut and Stompa, the largest war machines available to the current Ork army, one of which is an avatar of their gods, are festooned with ranged weapons. In fact, there's no option to run them without these weapons. The Battlewagon has double the ranged options to its melee ones. Even units focused on close combat sport guns, like Biker Boyz and Killa Kans.

All of which you say shouldn't count, because Orks are apparently a melee army that isn't allowed to focus on shooting because of reasons.

They are said to have liking for loud noises and big guns. Not that they are super shooty army that should be outshooting IG all day.

No they should not, but given that they have a significant number of units that have shooting as their primary role, those units should be usable. Otherwise the codex becomes essentially very sparse.

usmcmidn wrote:
I played a guy who fielded like 200 boyz or how ever you spell it... got the second then charge, and well let’s just say he did just fine with crappy shooting. I think the 5+ to hit for shooting before modifiers is just fine... in lore Orks are not known to be marksman anyway.

Personally I say no 5+ cap. If I’m a <insert warrior> who has a piece of equipment or trains to a standard to make it harder for my enemy to hit me...especially if my enemy can’t shoot like an Ork, spraying and praying would be more accurate engaging targets that do not seek cover or are not concealed, therefore I say no cap because Orks accuracy would only continue to diminish with professional “warriors” seeking cover and concealment. So no cap.

It hardly seems fair to me to be forced to pay 17 points for a 6+ save 1 wound boy that causes 2 or 3 points of low-ap damage per game, if is allowed to shoot at all. How much should I pay for a bs7+ loota?

 JimOnMars wrote:

usmcmidn wrote:
I played a guy who fielded like 200 boyz or how ever you spell it... got the second then charge, and well let’s just say he did just fine with crappy shooting. I think the 5+ to hit for shooting before modifiers is just fine... in lore Orks are not known to be marksman anyway.

Personally I say no 5+ cap. If I’m a <insert warrior> who has a piece of equipment or trains to a standard to make it harder for my enemy to hit me...especially if my enemy can’t shoot like an Ork, spraying and praying would be more accurate engaging targets that do not seek cover or are not concealed, therefore I say no cap because Orks accuracy would only continue to diminish with professional “warriors” seeking cover and concealment. So no cap.

It hardly seems fair to me to be forced to pay 17 points for a 6+ save 1 wound boy that causes 2 or 3 points of low-ap damage per game, if is allowed to shoot at all. How much should I pay for a bs7+ loota?

I think perhaps the real problem here (though I admit it harms orks disproportionately) is the sheer amount of -1 modifiers people can get.

-1 to-hit is fine, and can be decisive, especially if there are ways to play around it (e.g. anti-air guns against aircraft).
-2 to-hit is less fine, and should REALLY be limited to very very very very specific situations (e.g. a special character sniper or something, that you get 1/army).
-3 to hit is right out.

I would like to propose an experiment to all Ork players.

In your next game, see if your opponent will let you test out one (or both) of the following:

Ork BS cannot be modified due to anything.

Double the amount of shots of all Ork Guns. All dice rolls always succeed on a natural 6 and fail on a natural 1.

In either case, do not increase the Ork's points cost at all. I'm interested to see if either of these actually solve the problem in a practical setting. I will be trying this myself if I can get a game with my orks (not likely since I run green tide and don't like setting up that many models) but I wanna see if we can get a decent sample size. If it does push Orks up, then maybe we should all email the results to GW for consideration in the codex (the IG FAQ proved that they're at least willing to listen and make changes based on community feedback, even if it wasn't a good fix).

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
I would like to propose an experiment to all Ork players.

In your next game, see if your opponent will let you test out one (or both) of the following:

Ork BS cannot be modified due to anything.

Double the amount of shots of all Ork Guns. All dice rolls always succeed on a natural 6 and fail on a natural 1.

In either case, do not increase the Ork's points cost at all. I'm interested to see if either of these actually solve the problem in a practical setting. I will be trying this myself if I can get a game with my orks (not likely since I run green tide and don't like setting up that many models) but I wanna see if we can get a decent sample size. If it does push Orks up, then maybe we should all email the results to GW for consideration in the codex (the IG FAQ proved that they're at least willing to listen and make changes based on community feedback, even if it wasn't a good fix).

You could try it against me! Also, Pm incoming.

I'm not transporting over 100 orks over the state line!

I'm probably gonna be fined for transporting illegal fungi over the border.

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
I'm not transporting over 100 orks over the state line!

I'm probably gonna be fined for transporting illegal fungi over the border.

what's the worst that could happen!

Mmm... right now, Ork players can't actually shoot Alpha Legion troops in cover from over 12 inches away. Other armies have the same mechanic and we're seeing it in every new Codex.

Am I understanding the problem correctly?

I always thought Ork shooting should improve based on the number of guns actually firing. Like maybe 10 Shoota Boys have BS 5+, but 30 Shootas might have BS 3+. It represents Boys trying to outdo each other, seeing who has the loudest guns and spraying more shots onto the battlefield.

This mechanic would not mean much for smaller, more elite squads, but would it be a real solution?

 techsoldaten wrote:
Mmm... right now, Ork players can't actually shoot Alpha Legion troops in cover from over 12 inches away. Other armies have the same mechanic and we're seeing it in every new Codex.

Am I understanding the problem correctly?

No. I mean, why would Orks not be able to shoot at alpha Legion troops in cover more than 12 inches away?

Bring back templates.
Lower points values for most units.
Increase volume of fire for most guns.
Make everything assault.

pismakron wrote:

 techsoldaten wrote:
Mmm... right now, Ork players can't actually shoot Alpha Legion troops in cover from over 12 inches away. Other armies have the same mechanic and we're seeing it in every new Codex.

Am I understanding the problem correctly?

No. I mean, why would Orks not be able to shoot at alpha Legion troops in cover more than 12 inches away?

I thought Orks were BS 5+, Alpha Legion are -1 to hit at 12+ inches, and cover would apply another -1 on top of that.

Meaning Orks really would not have a chance to hit them.

 Amishprn86 wrote:
They could do a all Orks cant be modified past 6+ to hit, but there could be a Ork <Clan> that is range weapons focus and cant be modified past 5+, this would be neat IMO.

Best Solution.

More Dakka! Orks do not necessarily aim. However, they put out so much dakka, that they often hit something through sheer volume. On a natural roll of 6+, Orks always hit, no matter what other modifiers.

Then Bad Moonz can adjust this to 5+ because their gunz are snazzier.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 techsoldaten wrote:
Meaning Orks really would not have a chance to hit them.

Do Alpha Legion give an additional -1 to hit while in cover?

Cover in 8th increases armor by one, not reduces the shooter's to-hit, unless there's special ruls to modify it (camo cloaks making it +2 to armor)

While I agree that the "spray and pray" rule of Orks are never affected by hit modifiers is fluffy, I really don't think it will ever happen, as it would make traits such as Alaitoc and Ravenguard and Alpha legion completely worthless.

While I agree that these traits might well be currently overpowered, having them go from overpowered vs certain armies to being worthless against other armies is not a good balance.

I think the rule where Orks always hit on a 6 is better, as it still means that trait is having an effects, but it also means it goes from being great to simply good, which is much more of a balancing change.

I would even agree that the rule should be universal, and that every army should always hit on a 6. Problem with this is that there is then nothing special to give to orks!

Edit:
However, Ork BS should be awful, and volume of fire is the Orky way to shoot, but another way around this are auto-hit weapons. Burnas, Skorchas, supa-skorcha, are all good and Orky weapons to be using. Right now, these units are more expensive than they should be, but they are likely to get significent points drops in the codex when it eventually turns up.
Maybe even in chapter approved if we're lucky!