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Made in us
Norn Queen






 Amishprn86 wrote:
This is very interesting, does anyone have the English Digital BRB?

What does it say in there? (they have been different in the past)


Its the 8 page rules for free on gws site. You can download it for free.


These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka






https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/40k/warhammer_40000_en.pdf

Its worded the same, so no changes.

   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran





We were discussing this on thetyranidhive this morning. I can't poke any holes in it after reviewing the rules and dev commentary.

Someone said they saw an old GW twitch stream where they talked about this being intentional, to mitigate rolling boxcars, etc. I asked them to go find it; if they can I'll post the link.
   
Made in ie
Battleship Captain





 gigasnail wrote:
We were discussing this on thetyranidhive this morning. I can't poke any holes in it after reviewing the rules and dev commentary.

Someone said they saw an old GW twitch stream where they talked about this being intentional, to mitigate rolling boxcars, etc. I asked them to go find it; if they can I'll post the link.


I've changed my mind on this as well. What convinced me was the hormagaunt leaping rule. The rule actually makes A LOT more sense when you consider it as a mitigation tactic. Furthermore it means that you still move slightly if you charge. It seemed weird to me and new players I was teaching that you didn't when you failed. If it means you can make a pile in move after failing a charge it makes more sense.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/11/07 04:02:54



 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka






 Sim-Life wrote:
 gigasnail wrote:
We were discussing this on thetyranidhive this morning. I can't poke any holes in it after reviewing the rules and dev commentary.

Someone said they saw an old GW twitch stream where they talked about this being intentional, to mitigate rolling boxcars, etc. I asked them to go find it; if they can I'll post the link.


I've changed my mind on this as well. What convinced me was the hormagaunt leaping rule. The rule actually makes A LOT more sense when you consider it as a mitigation tactic. Furthermore it means that you still move slightly if you charge. It seemed weird to me and new players I was teaching that you didn't when you failed. If it means you can make a pile in move after failing a charge it makes more sense.


It makes since to me that you move also when you still fail, or at least get to move. but i also found a faq.

whc-cdn.games-workshop.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/Warhammer_40000_Designers_Commentary.pdf

Q: If a unit starts the Fight phase within 1" of an
enemy unit but, due to casualties suffered and models
removed, it is no longer within 1" of any enemy units
later in the phase, can it still be chosen to fight?

A: No, unless the unit in question charged this turn it
cannot be chosen to fight if there are no longer enemy
units within 1". Note that it is possible – if heavy enough
casualties have been incurred – that even a unit that
did charge may not be close enough, even after a pile-
in move, to make close combat attacks. It can still, of
course, consolidate.

So GW even says if no combat goes on you still pile in and consolidate

   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran





yeah that was the part we were looking at in the dev commentary. the arguments kinda start to thin out after that.
   
Made in de
Witch Hunter in the Shadows



Aachen

 Amishprn86 wrote:
 Sim-Life wrote:
 gigasnail wrote:
We were discussing this on thetyranidhive this morning. I can't poke any holes in it after reviewing the rules and dev commentary.

Someone said they saw an old GW twitch stream where they talked about this being intentional, to mitigate rolling boxcars, etc. I asked them to go find it; if they can I'll post the link.


I've changed my mind on this as well. What convinced me was the hormagaunt leaping rule. The rule actually makes A LOT more sense when you consider it as a mitigation tactic. Furthermore it means that you still move slightly if you charge. It seemed weird to me and new players I was teaching that you didn't when you failed. If it means you can make a pile in move after failing a charge it makes more sense.


It makes since to me that you move also when you still fail, or at least get to move. but i also found a faq.

whc-cdn.games-workshop.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/Warhammer_40000_Designers_Commentary.pdf

Q: If a unit starts the Fight phase within 1" of an
enemy unit but, due to casualties suffered and models
removed, it is no longer within 1" of any enemy units
later in the phase, can it still be chosen to fight?

A: No, unless the unit in question charged this turn it
cannot be chosen to fight if there are no longer enemy
units within 1". Note that it is possible – if heavy enough
casualties have been incurred – that even a unit that
did charge may not be close enough, even after a pile-
in move, to make close combat attacks. It can still, of
course, consolidate.

So GW even says if no combat goes on you still pile in and consolidate


Noone disputed that (i think) but that's for when your charge was successful, and the unit you charged into has taken losses that resulted in your unit being outside of 1'' of any enemy unit now.

The key issue is what "charged" actually means, and they should answer that in a FAQ. Until then I'm going to stick with my German BRB which requires a successful charge, since a failed charge shouldn't allow you to fight anyway IMO. HIWPI, obviously.
   
Made in us
Norn Queen






So...if I am getting this right. The consensus is that even if you failed a charge you get to do a pile in move. So units do get to move at least their 3"/6" pile in. Is that correct?


These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka






 Lance845 wrote:
So...if I am getting this right. The consensus is that even if you failed a charge you get to do a pile in move. So units do get to move at least their 3"/6" pile in. Is that correct?


Yeah... it makes since in some ways, and you still are treated as charging, so no jormungandr bonus.

It also feels wrong in some ways too tho, i wonder how ITC will play it.

   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





nekooni wrote:
 Amishprn86 wrote:
 Sim-Life wrote:
 gigasnail wrote:
We were discussing this on thetyranidhive this morning. I can't poke any holes in it after reviewing the rules and dev commentary.

Someone said they saw an old GW twitch stream where they talked about this being intentional, to mitigate rolling boxcars, etc. I asked them to go find it; if they can I'll post the link.


I've changed my mind on this as well. What convinced me was the hormagaunt leaping rule. The rule actually makes A LOT more sense when you consider it as a mitigation tactic. Furthermore it means that you still move slightly if you charge. It seemed weird to me and new players I was teaching that you didn't when you failed. If it means you can make a pile in move after failing a charge it makes more sense.


It makes since to me that you move also when you still fail, or at least get to move. but i also found a faq.

whc-cdn.games-workshop.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/Warhammer_40000_Designers_Commentary.pdf

Q: If a unit starts the Fight phase within 1" of an
enemy unit but, due to casualties suffered and models
removed, it is no longer within 1" of any enemy units
later in the phase, can it still be chosen to fight?

A: No, unless the unit in question charged this turn it
cannot be chosen to fight if there are no longer enemy
units within 1". Note that it is possible – if heavy enough
casualties have been incurred – that even a unit that
did charge may not be close enough, even after a pile-
in move, to make close combat attacks. It can still, of
course, consolidate.

So GW even says if no combat goes on you still pile in and consolidate


Noone disputed that (i think) but that's for when your charge was successful, and the unit you charged into has taken losses that resulted in your unit being outside of 1'' of any enemy unit now.

The key issue is what "charged" actually means, and they should answer that in a FAQ. Until then I'm going to stick with my German BRB which requires a successful charge, since a failed charge shouldn't allow you to fight anyway IMO. HIWPI, obviously.


Yes, the question has you starting off within 1" of an enemy at the start of the Fight phase, so this can't be used to establish how to handle a failed charge.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Lance845 wrote:
So...if I am getting this right. The consensus is that even if you failed a charge you get to do a pile in move. So units do get to move at least their 3"/6" pile in. Is that correct?


I'm not sure there's a consensus. At least not one that involves ignoring what the original question was in the designer commentary and applying the answer to a situation that the question didn't remotely ask about.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/11/07 20:33:59


 
   
Made in gb
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain





Cardiff

I would not ascribe to a consensus whereby failed chargers get to pile in. Nope. That certainly is not a consensus...

 Stormonu wrote:
For me, the joy is in putting some good-looking models on the board and playing out a fantasy battle - not arguing over the poorly-made rules of some 3rd party who neither has any power over my play nor will be visiting me (and my opponent) to ensure we are "playing by the rules"
 
   
Made in us
Automated Rubric Marine of Tzeentch




 JohnnyHell wrote:
I would not ascribe to a consensus whereby failed chargers get to pile in. Nope. That certainly is not a consensus...


Well it sure seemed like the people posting in this thread were either agreeing or saying maybe. Seems close to a consensus in the thread

That said, now it's definitely not, because if you fail a charge on me and start to move your models in the next phase, I'm gonna need a lot of convincing (read: not gonna happen). Nothing said here has convinced me so far that a failed charge counts as a unit that charged in the fight phase.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/11/07 21:48:04


 
   
Made in us
Norn Queen






Well i can see that it really boils down to 2 options.

A) a failed charge is not charging and jormungandrs traits stays active.

B) a failed charge is still a charge and the odd rules means pile ins still happen.

It is odd. Its not perfectly clear. It does need faqed. But you pretty much need to pick one or the other.


These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
 
   
Made in de
Witch Hunter in the Shadows



Aachen

 Lance845 wrote:
So...if I am getting this right. The consensus is that even if you failed a charge you get to do a pile in move. So units do get to move at least their 3"/6" pile in. Is that correct?


Not at all. I'd say there's consensus that the rules require clarification.

Personally I'd not allow a pile in, but I'm using a German BRB anyway, so for me it's the rules as written. But it seems like a sensible way to do it regardless of the language the BRB was written in.
Being able to pile in and consolidate 6 inches with any unit after you've failed your 3 inch charge seems ridiculously wrong. Even worse for units that pile in and consolidate 6 inches.

It is odd. Its not perfectly clear. It does need faqed. But you pretty much need to pick one or the other.

Or I just pick C) in order to pile in you need to successfully charge, and for any other rule the attempt to charge is all that's required to trigger a rule. It's a houserule, but I feel comfortable using it. If you want to force me to pick one, I'll rather have Jormwhatevers retain their cover save than allow failed charges to still fight.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/11/07 22:13:51


 
   
Made in se
Dakka Veteran





 doctortom wrote:
nekooni wrote:
 Amishprn86 wrote:
 Sim-Life wrote:
 gigasnail wrote:
We were discussing this on thetyranidhive this morning. I can't poke any holes in it after reviewing the rules and dev commentary.

Someone said they saw an old GW twitch stream where they talked about this being intentional, to mitigate rolling boxcars, etc. I asked them to go find it; if they can I'll post the link.


I've changed my mind on this as well. What convinced me was the hormagaunt leaping rule. The rule actually makes A LOT more sense when you consider it as a mitigation tactic. Furthermore it means that you still move slightly if you charge. It seemed weird to me and new players I was teaching that you didn't when you failed. If it means you can make a pile in move after failing a charge it makes more sense.


It makes since to me that you move also when you still fail, or at least get to move. but i also found a faq.

whc-cdn.games-workshop.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/Warhammer_40000_Designers_Commentary.pdf

Q: If a unit starts the Fight phase within 1" of an
enemy unit but, due to casualties suffered and models
removed, it is no longer within 1" of any enemy units
later in the phase, can it still be chosen to fight?

A: No, unless the unit in question charged this turn it
cannot be chosen to fight if there are no longer enemy
units within 1". Note that it is possible – if heavy enough
casualties have been incurred – that even a unit that
did charge may not be close enough, even after a pile-
in move, to make close combat attacks. It can still, of
course, consolidate.

So GW even says if no combat goes on you still pile in and consolidate


Noone disputed that (i think) but that's for when your charge was successful, and the unit you charged into has taken losses that resulted in your unit being outside of 1'' of any enemy unit now.

The key issue is what "charged" actually means, and they should answer that in a FAQ. Until then I'm going to stick with my German BRB which requires a successful charge, since a failed charge shouldn't allow you to fight anyway IMO. HIWPI, obviously.


Yes, the question has you starting off within 1" of an enemy at the start of the Fight phase, so this can't be used to establish how to handle a failed charge.

Note that the designers goes on to answer another situation, namely what would happen to a unit that DID charge but took enough casualties (might be from overwatch) to not make it into fighting range - it would still be able to be activated in the Fight phase (Pile in and Consolidate).
So yes, it can be used to establish how to handle a failed charge.

I don't see this surviving an errata. Until then, I'll gladly trade the Jormungandr adaptation for 100% successful Hormagaunt charges within 12".

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/11/08 07:22:52


 
   
Made in ie
Battleship Captain





 N.I.B. wrote:
 doctortom wrote:
nekooni wrote:
 Amishprn86 wrote:
 Sim-Life wrote:
 gigasnail wrote:
We were discussing this on thetyranidhive this morning. I can't poke any holes in it after reviewing the rules and dev commentary.

Someone said they saw an old GW twitch stream where they talked about this being intentional, to mitigate rolling boxcars, etc. I asked them to go find it; if they can I'll post the link.


I've changed my mind on this as well. What convinced me was the hormagaunt leaping rule. The rule actually makes A LOT more sense when you consider it as a mitigation tactic. Furthermore it means that you still move slightly if you charge. It seemed weird to me and new players I was teaching that you didn't when you failed. If it means you can make a pile in move after failing a charge it makes more sense.


It makes since to me that you move also when you still fail, or at least get to move. but i also found a faq.

whc-cdn.games-workshop.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/Warhammer_40000_Designers_Commentary.pdf

Q: If a unit starts the Fight phase within 1" of an
enemy unit but, due to casualties suffered and models
removed, it is no longer within 1" of any enemy units
later in the phase, can it still be chosen to fight?

A: No, unless the unit in question charged this turn it
cannot be chosen to fight if there are no longer enemy
units within 1". Note that it is possible – if heavy enough
casualties have been incurred – that even a unit that
did charge may not be close enough, even after a pile-
in move, to make close combat attacks. It can still, of
course, consolidate.

So GW even says if no combat goes on you still pile in and consolidate


Noone disputed that (i think) but that's for when your charge was successful, and the unit you charged into has taken losses that resulted in your unit being outside of 1'' of any enemy unit now.

The key issue is what "charged" actually means, and they should answer that in a FAQ. Until then I'm going to stick with my German BRB which requires a successful charge, since a failed charge shouldn't allow you to fight anyway IMO. HIWPI, obviously.


Yes, the question has you starting off within 1" of an enemy at the start of the Fight phase, so this can't be used to establish how to handle a failed charge.

Note that the designers goes on to answer another situation, namely what would happen to a unit that DID charge but took enough casualties (might be from overwatch) to not make it into fighting range - it would still be able to be activated in the Fight phase (Pile in and Consolidate).
So yes, it can be used to establish how to handle a failed charge.

I don't see this surviving an errata. Until then, I'll gladly trade the Jormungandr adaptation for 100% successful Hormagaunt charges within 12".



What I love about this whole dilemma is that either way, nids benefit.


 
   
Made in de
Witch Hunter in the Shadows



Aachen

 N.I.B. wrote:
 doctortom wrote:
nekooni wrote:
 Amishprn86 wrote:
 Sim-Life wrote:
 gigasnail wrote:
We were discussing this on thetyranidhive this morning. I can't poke any holes in it after reviewing the rules and dev commentary.

Someone said they saw an old GW twitch stream where they talked about this being intentional, to mitigate rolling boxcars, etc. I asked them to go find it; if they can I'll post the link.


I've changed my mind on this as well. What convinced me was the hormagaunt leaping rule. The rule actually makes A LOT more sense when you consider it as a mitigation tactic. Furthermore it means that you still move slightly if you charge. It seemed weird to me and new players I was teaching that you didn't when you failed. If it means you can make a pile in move after failing a charge it makes more sense.


It makes since to me that you move also when you still fail, or at least get to move. but i also found a faq.

whc-cdn.games-workshop.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/Warhammer_40000_Designers_Commentary.pdf

Q: If a unit starts the Fight phase within 1" of an
enemy unit but, due to casualties suffered and models
removed, it is no longer within 1" of any enemy units
later in the phase, can it still be chosen to fight?

A: No, unless the unit in question charged this turn it
cannot be chosen to fight if there are no longer enemy
units within 1". Note that it is possible – if heavy enough
casualties have been incurred – that even a unit that
did charge may not be close enough, even after a pile-
in move, to make close combat attacks. It can still, of
course, consolidate.

So GW even says if no combat goes on you still pile in and consolidate


Noone disputed that (i think) but that's for when your charge was successful, and the unit you charged into has taken losses that resulted in your unit being outside of 1'' of any enemy unit now.

The key issue is what "charged" actually means, and they should answer that in a FAQ. Until then I'm going to stick with my German BRB which requires a successful charge, since a failed charge shouldn't allow you to fight anyway IMO. HIWPI, obviously.


Yes, the question has you starting off within 1" of an enemy at the start of the Fight phase, so this can't be used to establish how to handle a failed charge.

Note that the designers goes on to answer another situation, namely what would happen to a unit that DID charge but took enough casualties (might be from overwatch) to not make it into fighting range - it would still be able to be activated in the Fight phase (Pile in and Consolidate).
So yes, it can be used to establish how to handle a failed charge.

I don't see this surviving an errata. Until then, I'll gladly trade the Jormungandr adaptation for 100% successful Hormagaunt charges within 12".


The question is not talking about failed charges or charging units losing models, it is talking about successful charges where then, due to the charged unit (the unit that was charged, the guys at the wrong end of the pain train) losing models, your charging unit is no longer within 1 inch of an enemy unit. It doesn't talk about units that failed their charge, therefore I wouldn't apply it to failed charges.

Example:

Unit A is already fighting Unit Z.
Unit B charges Unit Z, makes their charge roll and moves within 1'' of Unit Z
Unit C charges Unit Z, makes their charge roll and moves within 1'' of Unit Z
Unit D charges Unit Z, fails their charge roll and stays where they are (outside of 1'' of Unit Z)
---
Unit B is activated first and kills multiple models, resulting in Unit C and A no longer being within 1'' of Unit Z.
Unit C is activated next since it charged (successfully), gets to pile in 3'' and is now again within 1'' of Unit Z - so it's able to fight.
Unit A cannot be activated since it didn't charge (successfully) and it's not within 1'' of an enemy unit.
Unit D cannot be activated since it didn't charge (successfully) and it's not within 1'' of an enemy unit.

The FAQ clarifies that Unit C can still be activated. Nothing else.
Note: I've added "(successfully)" to clarify the situation, it actually not being there in the English rules is the reason for this thread and why we should expect an errata/faq.


While it is not relevant to the discussion I'd still like to know how you could possibly succeed at charging and then lose models in overwatch. I thought you're supposed to perform Overwatch and only then roll the charge.
   
Made in gb
Norn Queen






New special snowflake FAQ from GW

https://whc-cdn.games-workshop.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/warhammer_40000_tyranids_en.pdf

Q: When a unit is chosen to make a charge move and fails the charge, do they still count as having charged? Specifically, can a unit that has failed a charge move be chosen to pile in – and potentially consolidate – towards the enemy?
A: A unit only counts as having charged if they made a charge move. If a charge fails, and no models make a charge move, they do not count as having charged. As such, they cannot be chosen to fight in the Fight phase (and so cannot pile in or consolidate) unless an enemy unit moves within 1" of them.


Why this is in the Tyranid FAQ and not the Rulebook FAQ is beyond me.
   
Made in de
Witch Hunter in the Shadows



Aachen

 BaconCatBug wrote:
New special snowflake FAQ from GW

https://whc-cdn.games-workshop.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/warhammer_40000_tyranids_en.pdf

Q: When a unit is chosen to make a charge move and fails the charge, do they still count as having charged? Specifically, can a unit that has failed a charge move be chosen to pile in – and potentially consolidate – towards the enemy?
A: A unit only counts as having charged if they made a charge move. If a charge fails, and no models make a charge move, they do not count as having charged. As such, they cannot be chosen to fight in the Fight phase (and so cannot pile in or consolidate) unless an enemy unit moves within 1" of them.


Why this is in the Tyranid FAQ and not the Rulebook FAQ is beyond me.


Thanks for the find, hadn't noticed the FAQ is out.

How is this a snowflake rule? I think the FAQ answer was pretty likely to be that, and I agree it should be added to the BRB FAQs, too. Aside from the lack of an update to the BRB FAQs it's pretty consistent with what was expected.

BTW they changed how the adaption works, too:

Page 117 – Jormungandr: Tunnel Networks
Change the second sentence to read:‘If the unit Advances or declares a charge, however, it loses the benefit of this adaptation until the start of your next Movement phase.’

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/04 17:53:39


 
   
Made in gb
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain





Cardiff

 BaconCatBug wrote:
New special snowflake FAQ from GW

https://whc-cdn.games-workshop.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/warhammer_40000_tyranids_en.pdf

Q: When a unit is chosen to make a charge move and fails the charge, do they still count as having charged? Specifically, can a unit that has failed a charge move be chosen to pile in – and potentially consolidate – towards the enemy?
A: A unit only counts as having charged if they made a charge move. If a charge fails, and no models make a charge move, they do not count as having charged. As such, they cannot be chosen to fight in the Fight phase (and so cannot pile in or consolidate) unless an enemy unit moves within 1" of them.


Why this is in the Tyranid FAQ and not the Rulebook FAQ is beyond me.


For the same reason the 'Stratagem to get relics for multiple factions' one is in the Death Guard FAQ... simply the first time it came up.

(And jeez, drop the 'special snowflake' stuck record already. It's also not remotely 'special snowflake', it's just a logical fix most would assume would have been the answer.)

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/04 18:52:35


 Stormonu wrote:
For me, the joy is in putting some good-looking models on the board and playing out a fantasy battle - not arguing over the poorly-made rules of some 3rd party who neither has any power over my play nor will be visiting me (and my opponent) to ensure we are "playing by the rules"
 
   
Made in de
Witch Hunter in the Shadows



Aachen

 JohnnyHell wrote:

(And jeez, drop the 'special snowflake' stuck record already. It's also not remotely 'special snowflake', it's just a logical fix most would assume would have been the answer.)

Aww. let him be the 'special snowflake' special snowflake if he wants to be that.
   
 
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