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lliu wrote:

 Big Mac wrote:

 djones520 wrote:

 Big Mac wrote:
Curze, he has premonitions, so maybe when he said ‘I know what you intend for me, father. ‘ He meant all the crazy flying rodent gak he would do.

Sanguinius always has a soft spot for Curze, so maybe Curze is the one who saves Saguinious and return to the loyalist side, something of a redemption arc that most people love. I like to see the lion show his true colors and switch sides.

So, both Sanguinius and Curze are dead, but you think they'll be back, and even though the Lion has unequivocally been shown to be a loyalist, you believe he's a traitor... ok man.

If the rumor are to be believed, Sanguinius is in a state like Guilliman was, no real confirmation on Curze’s suppose assassination, dying to a callidus assassin however intentionally is hard, suppose only a primarch can kill another primarch, a callidus is way below that, even if she cut off his head. Curze is a precog, so he knows what happens no matter what.

There is another rumor of a loyalist planet that the imperium does not recognize, on the tube about Curze recently. Having Curze back would add a lot of plot points/drama, Dorn, if and when he comes back; Guilliman, the lion, Vulcan. Curze somewhat = the punisher, who wouldn’t want to see that story unfold?

Edit: the lion does not unequivocally shown to be a loyalist, at least in my opinion by the various authors, as well as many others, or there won’t be so many calling him a potential traitor.

Jesus Christ has no one actually read the fluff on what does and does not happen? Firstly, the stasis and sanguinius was a bad translation, and it’s only the dead body, which he literally clearly stated two sentences before, emphasizing that Sanguinius is totally dead. Secondly, Curze wanted to die, and he let himself get killed to prove the the emperor that the imperium was just as bad as chaos. HE WANTED TO DIE. Lastly, when did this Lion unwilling loyalist/actual traitor stuff come to be? In the vast majority of HH books he is portrayed as being completely loyal. In the maybe 3 books that he is not as loyal and ignores the emperor’s orders in, those are first of all already superceded by the more recent books, but secondly are also not indications that he would ever be a servant of Chaos.

Just going by the RUMOR about the BA, no hard codex in hand. Curze wanting to die and actually dying are two different things, if we are to believe only a primarch could kill another outside of the big E, then curze isn't dead as a no name callidus is not a primarch.
If I recall correctly, the lion outright murdered Nemiel, his suppose trusted adjutant in cold blood during a 1-1 private conversation, lion wants to defy the big E edict, Nimiel reminds the lion and said he would tell, the lion executed him to shut him up. The author portray the lion with shady intentions. I didn’t say the lion was with chaos, just that he is disloyal to the imperium with his own agendas. Plenty of chapters gone rogue by their own accord, corruption by chaos or excommunicated by the imperium based on true and false accusations.

The Lion sided with the winners. He wouldn't go chaos unless he honestly believed they could take terra. That's the shame of the Dark Angels - their primarch didn't pick sides, which allowed the chapter to split during the heresy. He conveitntly showed up after the siege of Terra and then declared for the emperor after the loyalists won.

 ChargerIIC wrote:
The Lion sided with the winners. He wouldn't go chaos unless he honestly believed they could take terra. That's the shame of the Dark Angels - their primarch didn't pick sides, which allowed the chapter to split during the heresy. He conveitntly showed up after the siege of Terra and then declared for the emperor after the loyalists won.

And here was have another example of someone who hasn't read a single bit of the Dark Angels story during the Horus Heresy.

Lorgar's return to the field could be interesting. During the Horus Heresy he created a warp storm that cut off all of Ultramar. What if he had a hand in creating the Cicatrix Maledictum and that's what he's been doing for the last ten millennia? It would certainly be threatening to think the daemon primarchs weren't just waiting, but preparing as well.

 Big Mac wrote:

lliu wrote:

 Big Mac wrote:

 djones520 wrote:

 Big Mac wrote:
Curze, he has premonitions, so maybe when he said ‘I know what you intend for me, father. ‘ He meant all the crazy flying rodent gak he would do.

Sanguinius always has a soft spot for Curze, so maybe Curze is the one who saves Saguinious and return to the loyalist side, something of a redemption arc that most people love. I like to see the lion show his true colors and switch sides.

So, both Sanguinius and Curze are dead, but you think they'll be back, and even though the Lion has unequivocally been shown to be a loyalist, you believe he's a traitor... ok man.

If the rumor are to be believed, Sanguinius is in a state like Guilliman was, no real confirmation on Curze’s suppose assassination, dying to a callidus assassin however intentionally is hard, suppose only a primarch can kill another primarch, a callidus is way below that, even if she cut off his head. Curze is a precog, so he knows what happens no matter what.

There is another rumor of a loyalist planet that the imperium does not recognize, on the tube about Curze recently. Having Curze back would add a lot of plot points/drama, Dorn, if and when he comes back; Guilliman, the lion, Vulcan. Curze somewhat = the punisher, who wouldn’t want to see that story unfold?

Edit: the lion does not unequivocally shown to be a loyalist, at least in my opinion by the various authors, as well as many others, or there won’t be so many calling him a potential traitor.

Jesus Christ has no one actually read the fluff on what does and does not happen? Firstly, the stasis and sanguinius was a bad translation, and it’s only the dead body, which he literally clearly stated two sentences before, emphasizing that Sanguinius is totally dead. Secondly, Curze wanted to die, and he let himself get killed to prove the the emperor that the imperium was just as bad as chaos. HE WANTED TO DIE. Lastly, when did this Lion unwilling loyalist/actual traitor stuff come to be? In the vast majority of HH books he is portrayed as being completely loyal. In the maybe 3 books that he is not as loyal and ignores the emperor’s orders in, those are first of all already superceded by the more recent books, but secondly are also not indications that he would ever be a servant of Chaos.

Just going by the RUMOR about the BA, no hard codex in hand. Curze wanting to die and actually dying are two different things, if we are to believe only a primarch could kill another outside of the big E, then curze isn't dead as a no name callidus is not a primarch.
If I recall correctly, the lion outright murdered Nemiel, his suppose trusted adjutant in cold blood during a 1-1 private conversation, lion wants to defy the big E edict, Nimiel reminds the lion and said he would tell, the lion executed him to shut him up. The author portray the lion with shady intentions. I didn’t say the lion was with chaos, just that he is disloyal to the imperium with his own agendas. Plenty of chapters gone rogue by their own accord, corruption by chaos or excommunicated by the imperium based on true and false accusations.

There's no Sanguinius in the new Codex. We would have gotten an uproar by now, as the BA codex is released. Sang is definitely not alive. Also, Guilliman is the shining paramour of the Imperium right? Well, he tried to usurp the Emperor with his little Imperium Secundus. He doesn't get flak for it, why would the Lion for killing a single space marine. Sure, he was there to oversee the Emperor's intentions, but literally every Primarch has disobeyed the Emperor at some point. The Lion always has intentions, I don't know if they're shady. Literally though, he and his legion were portrayed as utterly loyal in most books, just a few that think implying that is still the height of humour.

lliu wrote:
There's no Sanguinius in the new Codex. We would have gotten an uproar by now, as the BA codex is released. Sang is definitely not alive. Also, Guilliman is the shining paramour of the Imperium right? Well, he tried to usurp the Emperor with his little Imperium Secundus. He doesn't get flak for it, why would the Lion for killing a single space marine. Sure, he was there to oversee the Emperor's intentions, but literally every Primarch has disobeyed the Emperor at some point. The Lion always has intentions, I don't know if they're shady. Literally though, he and his legion were portrayed as utterly loyal in most books, just a few that think implying that is still the height of humour.

The Imperium Secundus wasn't designed to usurp the Imperium at all. It was an emergency, in case the Emperor WAS dead, which they had no way of knowing. Guilliman wanted (quite sensibly) to consolidate as much Loyalist power in one place as possible, so that IF worst came to worst, they would have a centralised point to attack from.

It's also why Guilliman made sure that he wasn't in charge, and why he pushed so hard for Sanguinius to be in charge. He could EASILY have put himself in charge, and fought the Lion for that, but he didn't. Nothing that Guilliman says or thinks supports the idea of him doing it for personal gain - that's just suspicious thinking from other people, mostly the Dark Angels, who were already suspect for them selling weapons to the Iron Warriors. Not to mention Guilliman does this for the Imperium's best interests, but Lion killing a Space Marine is certainly NOT in the Imperium's interests.

The "shining paragon" (probably not paramour) is still definitely Sanguinius, but Guilliman has shown no intent to usurp or rebel against the Emperor.

lliu wrote:

 Big Mac wrote:

lliu wrote:

 Big Mac wrote:

 djones520 wrote:

 Big Mac wrote:
Curze, he has premonitions, so maybe when he said ‘I know what you intend for me, father. ‘ He meant all the crazy flying rodent gak he would do.

Sanguinius always has a soft spot for Curze, so maybe Curze is the one who saves Saguinious and return to the loyalist side, something of a redemption arc that most people love. I like to see the lion show his true colors and switch sides.

So, both Sanguinius and Curze are dead, but you think they'll be back, and even though the Lion has unequivocally been shown to be a loyalist, you believe he's a traitor... ok man.

If the rumor are to be believed, Sanguinius is in a state like Guilliman was, no real confirmation on Curze’s suppose assassination, dying to a callidus assassin however intentionally is hard, suppose only a primarch can kill another primarch, a callidus is way below that, even if she cut off his head. Curze is a precog, so he knows what happens no matter what.

There is another rumor of a loyalist planet that the imperium does not recognize, on the tube about Curze recently. Having Curze back would add a lot of plot points/drama, Dorn, if and when he comes back; Guilliman, the lion, Vulcan. Curze somewhat = the punisher, who wouldn’t want to see that story unfold?

Edit: the lion does not unequivocally shown to be a loyalist, at least in my opinion by the various authors, as well as many others, or there won’t be so many calling him a potential traitor.

Jesus Christ has no one actually read the fluff on what does and does not happen? Firstly, the stasis and sanguinius was a bad translation, and it’s only the dead body, which he literally clearly stated two sentences before, emphasizing that Sanguinius is totally dead. Secondly, Curze wanted to die, and he let himself get killed to prove the the emperor that the imperium was just as bad as chaos. HE WANTED TO DIE. Lastly, when did this Lion unwilling loyalist/actual traitor stuff come to be? In the vast majority of HH books he is portrayed as being completely loyal. In the maybe 3 books that he is not as loyal and ignores the emperor’s orders in, those are first of all already superceded by the more recent books, but secondly are also not indications that he would ever be a servant of Chaos.

Just going by the RUMOR about the BA, no hard codex in hand. Curze wanting to die and actually dying are two different things, if we are to believe only a primarch could kill another outside of the big E, then curze isn't dead as a no name callidus is not a primarch.
If I recall correctly, the lion outright murdered Nemiel, his suppose trusted adjutant in cold blood during a 1-1 private conversation, lion wants to defy the big E edict, Nimiel reminds the lion and said he would tell, the lion executed him to shut him up. The author portray the lion with shady intentions. I didn’t say the lion was with chaos, just that he is disloyal to the imperium with his own agendas. Plenty of chapters gone rogue by their own accord, corruption by chaos or excommunicated by the imperium based on true and false accusations.

There's no Sanguinius in the new Codex. We would have gotten an uproar by now, as the BA codex is released. Sang is definitely not alive. Also, Guilliman is the shining paramour of the Imperium right? Well, he tried to usurp the Emperor with his little Imperium Secundus. He doesn't get flak for it, why would the Lion for killing a single space marine. Sure, he was there to oversee the Emperor's intentions, but literally every Primarch has disobeyed the Emperor at some point. The Lion always has intentions, I don't know if they're shady. Literally though, he and his legion were portrayed as utterly loyal in most books, just a few that think implying that is still the height of humour.

That's a good thing, space jesus should stay a martyr. Nimiel wasn't just some space marine line troop killed by friendly fire in the heat of battle, he was a 1st chaplain or some sort, the lion could have lock him up like dorn did to his librarians; instead he took him to a shady corner and did a shady thing, something that the DA chapter followed suit.

Pretty much all of them could be brought back if GW wants the money. They're all either given plot hooks for potential returns or still in existence. Retcons are nothing compared to the almighty dollar (or pound, in this case). They all should have major events associated with them, though.

Here's some ideas based on current hooks:

Russ: lost in the warp, Bring him back when they push the Inquisition codex with a campaign event: Inquisitors and Deathwatch start a purge against the Wolves for the Wulfen Heresy, Russ returns as basically an enormous werewolf in power armor but completely rational, proving that the Canis Helix can be controlled. They team up and beat on the Thousand Sons, who get their codex as well during the campaign.

Corax: lost in the warp. He's one of the primarchs who doesn't really fit into the narrative so much, and is head of only a minorly popular chapter/legion. Have him return as the harbinger of a major Chaos incursion, probably with actual wings and claws from his time in the Eye.

Khan: lost in the Webway. Bring him back with a campaign centered around the Dark Eldar, as he's been harrying them for however long it's been in the warp.

Ferrus: dead, but cloned/head sent to Mars. Another who doesn't fit into the narrative, plus his death is fairly central to the character of his chapter/legion. Bring him back in a super dreadnought/knight body during a campaign of Admech vs Necrons when the Dragon wakes up.

Dorn: dead, maybe, only found his hand/hands. Dorn the unbreakable has been in Perturabo's "care" for the whole time. Bring him back in a big chaos event focused the Iron Warriors/Black Legion.

Lion: asleep. This one's easy, just have him wake up. Probably during the same event as Russ returns for the synergy between the two. Throw some Cypher into the mix, make a Luther character model to be another Fallen leader.

Vulkan: dead, but totally not as he's a Perpetual. Vulkan comes back with an Ork campaign, where the Prime Orks return to do some WAAAGHin. His skin is scarred and cracked to give him a sweet lava flow effect.

Sanguinius: dead as a doornail. When Angron comes back and threatens the Blood Angels with Ka'Bandha, the Sanguinor merges with a redeemed Red Angel and the primarch's corpse to form Sanguinius Reborn, a new entity that is prone to the Black Rage.

Lorgar: daemon primarch. Comes back in Gathering Storm II: Electric Boogaloo to face Gulliman. Someone finally kills off Erebus in a satisfying manner.

Angron: daemon primarch. As above, comes back to finish/corrupt the Blood Angels, ends up causing resurrection of Sanguinius.

Fulgrim: daemon primarch. Give him a campaign against the Eldar as Slaanesh throws down against the Ynnari.

Perturabo: daemon primarch. Comes back allied with Black Legion to lay siege to some major system, ends up accidentally returning Dorn.

Alpharius: who freaking knows. In a shocking twist, when Corax returns at the beginning of their campaign event, it's really Al/Om in disguise, which is why Corax doesn't get a model until the 3rd book. Both do in the end, and it's revealed that "Corax"'s warning of doom was true, because the Alpha Legion was never really on the side of Chaos but now everyone in the Imperium hates them anyway so they can't come back home. Plus, while they thought they were just pretending to be Traitors, Chaos has slowly seeped into parts of the Legion anyway, so they're actually fairly corrupt regardless. They get an FAQ that allows them to be in an Imperium battle-forged army as if they had that keyword, but gain no benefits from that keyword and cannot take any units with keywords DAEMON, KHORNE, SLAANESH, TZEENTCH, or NURGLE as those would just get them shot at right away.

Curze: dead, we think. Another primarch that doesn't fit the narrative and whose death is integral to the character of their legion. No one actually witnessed Curze's death except, IIRC, Zho Sahaal who is revealed to be an unreliable narrator in later books. It's revealed that he faked his death in order to live to see how his vindication affects everyone, turns out no one cared. Honestly, I'm a huge NL fan, and they're my main Chaos faction, but out of all of them Curze should just stay dead.We have his FW figure, and that's good enough for me. If you really need someone to be the big NL character, bring back Sevatar.

Horus: dead as a really dead doornail. However, Abaddon cuts through reality with the Talon of Horus and punches Archaeon in the face and steals his horse. Or something. Anyway, Abaddon gets a new model and new super scion of Chaos rules in a big Siege on Terra II event.

There's my self-indulgence for the day finished.

Personally, and I know that this will probably get me some hate, but I wish GW would bring back all the Primarchs.

It escalates the intensity of the battles of the 41st millennium by adding more black and white, good versus evil. Imagine a large scale battle between A deamon Primarch Magnus against a returned Russ for example.

Makes for great books, makes for great miniatures, and makes for great tabletop battles.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

lliu wrote:
There's no Sanguinius in the new Codex. We would have gotten an uproar by now, as the BA codex is released. Sang is definitely not alive. Also, Guilliman is the shining paramour of the Imperium right? Well, he tried to usurp the Emperor with his little Imperium Secundus. He doesn't get flak for it, why would the Lion for killing a single space marine. Sure, he was there to oversee the Emperor's intentions, but literally every Primarch has disobeyed the Emperor at some point. The Lion always has intentions, I don't know if they're shady. Literally though, he and his legion were portrayed as utterly loyal in most books, just a few that think implying that is still the height of humour.

The Imperium Secundus wasn't designed to usurp the Imperium at all. It was an emergency, in case the Emperor WAS dead, which they had no way of knowing. Guilliman wanted (quite sensibly) to consolidate as much Loyalist power in one place as possible, so that IF worst came to worst, they would have a centralised point to attack from.

It's also why Guilliman made sure that he wasn't in charge, and why he pushed so hard for Sanguinius to be in charge. He could EASILY have put himself in charge, and fought the Lion for that, but he didn't. Nothing that Guilliman says or thinks supports the idea of him doing it for personal gain - that's just suspicious thinking from other people, mostly the Dark Angels, who were already suspect for them selling weapons to the Iron Warriors. Not to mention Guilliman does this for the Imperium's best interests, but Lion killing a Space Marine is certainly NOT in the Imperium's interests.

The "shining paragon" (probably not paramour) is still definitely Sanguinius, but Guilliman has shown no intent to usurp or rebel against the Emperor.

But that is protrayed differently in some books. It's like that in every case, some authors take things differently, so at the end of the day, the Lion did it to protect his plan, Guilliman did it to save Macragge and what he could. That's how it can be looked at differently. The fact is, more books portray the Lion as loyal than not, just as more books say that Guilliman was loyal than not. I'm just tryign to say most Black Library authors agree that the Lion is loyal, and try to portray him as such.

I'm going to go out on a limb and say Ferrus Manus.

"but he's dead!" I'll hear you cry. Yes he is.

Here's my rediculous way of getting Ferrus Manus back:

- Fulgrim is still super salty at Guilliman returning after millennia

- Gets Fabius Bile to yet again clone Ferrus Manus to corrupt him to chaos

- Ferrus gets rescued. Checked for taint. All clear.

- Goes back to lead the Iron hands and develop stuff not seen since 30k

Yeah. Silly. But 49k is silly turned up to 11!

lliu wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

lliu wrote:
There's no Sanguinius in the new Codex. We would have gotten an uproar by now, as the BA codex is released. Sang is definitely not alive. Also, Guilliman is the shining paramour of the Imperium right? Well, he tried to usurp the Emperor with his little Imperium Secundus. He doesn't get flak for it, why would the Lion for killing a single space marine. Sure, he was there to oversee the Emperor's intentions, but literally every Primarch has disobeyed the Emperor at some point. The Lion always has intentions, I don't know if they're shady. Literally though, he and his legion were portrayed as utterly loyal in most books, just a few that think implying that is still the height of humour.

The Imperium Secundus wasn't designed to usurp the Imperium at all. It was an emergency, in case the Emperor WAS dead, which they had no way of knowing. Guilliman wanted (quite sensibly) to consolidate as much Loyalist power in one place as possible, so that IF worst came to worst, they would have a centralised point to attack from.

It's also why Guilliman made sure that he wasn't in charge, and why he pushed so hard for Sanguinius to be in charge. He could EASILY have put himself in charge, and fought the Lion for that, but he didn't. Nothing that Guilliman says or thinks supports the idea of him doing it for personal gain - that's just suspicious thinking from other people, mostly the Dark Angels, who were already suspect for them selling weapons to the Iron Warriors. Not to mention Guilliman does this for the Imperium's best interests, but Lion killing a Space Marine is certainly NOT in the Imperium's interests.

The "shining paragon" (probably not paramour) is still definitely Sanguinius, but Guilliman has shown no intent to usurp or rebel against the Emperor.

But that is protrayed differently in some books. It's like that in every case, some authors take things differently, so at the end of the day, the Lion did it to protect his plan, Guilliman did it to save Macragge and what he could. That's how it can be looked at differently. The fact is, more books portray the Lion as loyal than not, just as more books say that Guilliman was loyal than not. I'm just tryign to say most Black Library authors agree that the Lion is loyal, and try to portray him as such.

I've yet to see a book that, from Guilliman's perspective, admits he was doing the Imperium Secundus for a power grab.

However, whilst the Lion may MOSTLY be portrayed as Loyal, there's still the case of him killing Nemiel, and selling weapons to the Iron Warriors.

Would love to find out that Dorn was just hiding in the imperial palace secretly fortifying the golden throne with the help of some friendly Custodians.

preferably in some centurion armor.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

However, whilst the Lion may MOSTLY be portrayed as Loyal, there's still the case of him killing Nemiel, and selling weapons to the Iron Warriors.

The first makes him a jerk, the second makes him a fool but neither makes him a traitor.

The Lion is consistently portrayed as having zero charisma and empathy. He expects to be obeyed without question but lacks the charm Horus uses to get people to do it. He is a "my way or the high way" kind of guy. Similarly, he cannot read people's emotions and motivations. He questions the loyalty of his own troops even when it is not in doubt yet fails to see Perutabo all but laughing in his face when he hands over the siege engines.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

lliu wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

lliu wrote:
There's no Sanguinius in the new Codex. We would have gotten an uproar by now, as the BA codex is released. Sang is definitely not alive. Also, Guilliman is the shining paramour of the Imperium right? Well, he tried to usurp the Emperor with his little Imperium Secundus. He doesn't get flak for it, why would the Lion for killing a single space marine. Sure, he was there to oversee the Emperor's intentions, but literally every Primarch has disobeyed the Emperor at some point. The Lion always has intentions, I don't know if they're shady. Literally though, he and his legion were portrayed as utterly loyal in most books, just a few that think implying that is still the height of humour.

The Imperium Secundus wasn't designed to usurp the Imperium at all. It was an emergency, in case the Emperor WAS dead, which they had no way of knowing. Guilliman wanted (quite sensibly) to consolidate as much Loyalist power in one place as possible, so that IF worst came to worst, they would have a centralised point to attack from.

It's also why Guilliman made sure that he wasn't in charge, and why he pushed so hard for Sanguinius to be in charge. He could EASILY have put himself in charge, and fought the Lion for that, but he didn't. Nothing that Guilliman says or thinks supports the idea of him doing it for personal gain - that's just suspicious thinking from other people, mostly the Dark Angels, who were already suspect for them selling weapons to the Iron Warriors. Not to mention Guilliman does this for the Imperium's best interests, but Lion killing a Space Marine is certainly NOT in the Imperium's interests.

The "shining paragon" (probably not paramour) is still definitely Sanguinius, but Guilliman has shown no intent to usurp or rebel against the Emperor.

But that is protrayed differently in some books. It's like that in every case, some authors take things differently, so at the end of the day, the Lion did it to protect his plan, Guilliman did it to save Macragge and what he could. That's how it can be looked at differently. The fact is, more books portray the Lion as loyal than not, just as more books say that Guilliman was loyal than not. I'm just tryign to say most Black Library authors agree that the Lion is loyal, and try to portray him as such.

I've yet to see a book that, from Guilliman's perspective, admits he was doing the Imperium Secundus for a power grab.

However, whilst the Lion may MOSTLY be portrayed as Loyal, there's still the case of him killing Nemiel, and selling weapons to the Iron Warriors.

He killed Nemiel because he lost his temper, he gave an order and Nemiel disobeyed it infront of the other command staff, nothing shady, no corners, just straight up murder, it is coming back to haunt the Lion though as it seems to be a deciding factor of why Caliban falls in the future, cant go around murdering your own men, the others wont like it.

As for Iron Warriors and weapons, the Lion gave weapons to LOYAL, let that sink in, LOYAL...... Iron Warriors, for political gain, he wanted Peturabo to support his bid for warmaster once Horus was dead, he had no idea that the Iron Warriors were going to turn traitor, bet he was kicking himself afterwards though.

Fact is that the Lion was tested so many times by chaos and never fell, the same book that he murders Nemiel is the same book he has a conversation with "fateweaver" and basically tells him to F-off because Chaos offers him nothing he doesnt already have, there was never a chance of the Lion falling to Chaos.

In my opinion people still believe the lion was a traitor because they want him to be one. People twist facts to support their beliefs all the time. 40k lends itself to this attitude as they love to muddy the waters and drop contradictory hints here and there.

I think the novel by gav that started all this the lion was a secret traitor was intended as one of these efforts to muddy the waters, it wasn’t intended to be taken seriously but just to be a fun what if this was true.

I think the way a vocal section of the fandom embraced this hint hard surprised GW, this caused them to backtrack hard in the Heresy books. The only way they could have more clearly labelled him a loyalist in the Heresy books was with a large neon sign. But they also gave him serious personality flaws that enables us to see why people who didn’t know him could come to the wrong conclusion.

Lastly for me I don’t care which primarch’s return, I care about how they return. For example the Devastation of Baal blurb in the rule book was not good, but Guy Haley’s novel stuck to the same events but was awesome.

So for me they can bring anyone back as long as they write a good story. Obviously some would require a better story than others, bringing back the traitor’s or the lion and rus would be easier to write than Sanguinius or Curze.

Hell I’d accept the return of Horus if the story was good enough, it would require a godlike level of writing, but it’s just about theoretically possible someone could write a novel good enough for me to accept his return.

Pandion40 wrote:
So for me they can bring anyone back as long as they write a good story.

Congratulations sir, you have just won the internets for this evening.

Everything good or bad in the fluff summed up one simple sentence!

I think we'll see Ferrus Manus back as a clone escaped from Fulgrim's basement at the same time we see Fulgrim.

If I had to pick one it would be Johnson, granted I am a Dark Angels fan. He's by far the one in lore that's in the best shape and in a known location. The codexes basically just say he's waiting to wake up. He would be a great foil for Gulliman.

Alpharius... actually never left and he doesn't need a big shiny model

 Brotherjulian wrote:
Alpharius... actually never left and he doesn't need a big shiny model

They need to release Leman Russ as a helmeted version with they keyword 'I am Alpharius' and no comment. The conspiracy theories would explode.

 andysonic1 wrote:
I think we'll see Ferrus Manus back as a clone escaped from Fulgrim's basement at the same time we see Fulgrim.

Fabius Bile Clonelord spoilers below.

 Grimtuff wrote:

 andysonic1 wrote:
I think we'll see Ferrus Manus back as a clone escaped from Fulgrim's basement at the same time we see Fulgrim.

Fabius Bile Clonelord spoilers below.

Spoiler:

Fulgrim is described multiple times in the novel as "sleeping". and not being active.

Fabius however finds an infant clone of Fulgrim on Harmony and for whatever reason decided not to destroy it. Fulgrim clone grows to maturity and we get a totally-not-Frankenstein-and-monster-resentful-relationship between them by the end where he is handed over to Trazyn.

My bold prediction is he'll be back but as a Loyalist. Remember all of those rumours a while back about one of the Primarchs switching sides? This is it.

Fulgrim would be a weird one. He wasn't totally sane before the heresy, I can't imagine the clone would be much better. If we have to have a clone versus original matchup it should be Alhparius or the Lion. Those legions are at least split.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
On the plus side, once you clone one primarch, why not clone others? New Ferrus Manus, new Sanginious, Gulliman as a 5 man clone squad....

You could have a LoW Konrad Cruze as 5 clones standing in a pyramid formation with wings.

Mate, that book is less than 3 weeks old. Hence the spoiler tags. I suggest you edit your post to include them.

*EDIT* Please remove

It's a cop-out, But Lion 'El Johnson is the most likely to appear for the loyalists.

In some ways it's intriguing. In many ways he's like RG, but in other ways total opposites. RG is the face man of the Imperium, everyone loves him. Johnson kind of freaks people out. Both are tactical geniuses (edge to Johnson). RG is in it for the good of the Imperium. Johnson is in it for the good of his chapter, but that means making the whole Imperium better by consequence too.

To me they are like the muscle car- tuner car debate. Different answers to the same question. Seeing them but heads a bit, but still working on an better imperium, would be a great story. I could see them winning a critical battle, RG goes to hi-five Johnson, only for Johnson to flip him the bird and sulk off.

 cuda1179 wrote:
It's a cop-out, But Lion 'El Johnson is the most likely to appear for the loyalists.

In some ways it's intriguing. In many ways he's like RG, but in other ways total opposites. RG is the face man of the Imperium, everyone loves him. Johnson kind of freaks people out. Both are tactical geniuses (edge to Johnson). RG is in it for the good of the Imperium. Johnson is in it for the good of his chapter, but that means making the whole Imperium better by consequence too.

To me they are like the muscle car- tuner car debate. Different answers to the same question. Seeing them but heads a bit, but still working on an better imperium, would be a great story. I could see them winning a critical battle, RG goes to hi-five Johnson, only for Johnson to flip him the bird and sulk off.

given the dark angels didn't get a primarch with their codex, and that GW has held off space wolves but not the other marine chapters... I'd bet on lemen russ being the next loyalist

I don't want to see any more primarchs in 40k, let them stay in 30k where they belong. In fact, I don't really like named characters at all, except in reenactments of famous battles. My casual games aren't grand enough for Eldrad, Abaddon, He'stan or anyone else really important to care about. I want them to be about generic Farseers, Captains and such, named by myself and my opponent.

 Cream Tea wrote:
I don't want to see any more primarchs in 40k, let them stay in 30k where they belong. In fact, I don't really like named characters at all, except in reenactments of famous battles. My casual games aren't grand enough for Eldrad, Abaddon, He'stan or anyone else really important to care about. I want them to be about generic Farseers, Captains and such, named by myself and my opponent.

So, don't take em. clearly others disagree given the popularity of those characters (although it's a legit question of "do people like Gulliman cause they wanna take the UMs primarch or because he's just such a bad ass character, I'd say it's a little of both, but the demand for big center piece characters seems a pretty strong one) the building/painting hobby is as big a part of 40k as the actual gaming, and I'd be very curious to know the ratio of Motarians purchases for use, vs the ratio of Mortarians purchased simply to be a display centerpiece. just for example.

BrianDavion wrote:

So, don't take em. clearly others disagree given the popularity of those characters (although it's a legit question of "do people like Gulliman cause they wanna take the UMs primarch or because he's just such a bad ass character, I'd say it's a little of both, but the demand for big center piece characters seems a pretty strong one) the building/painting hobby is as big a part of 40k as the actual gaming, and I'd be very curious to know the ratio of Motarians purchases for use, vs the ratio of Mortarians purchased simply to be a display centerpiece. just for example.

I don't take them. I can still say how I would like the game to be, as can others.

There are lots of big centrepiece models that aren't named characters and of which there are millions in the galaxy, such as large tanks and walkers. Having them present in my insignificant game isn't nearly as immersion-breaking as having Guilliman or Mortarion is. I'm actually happy I don't play Ultramarines or Death Guard, because I'd feel pressured to buy Guilliman/Mortarion. They're just that good. That's a problem in itself, of course, I don't think there should be any autotakes of that magnitude, named character or not.

If you want models as display centrepieces, then it doesn't matter whether they're 40k or 30k, or any other game really, and I already said I don't mind primarchs in 30k. The 30k versions of Guilliman and Mortarion look much better than their 40k ones too, in my opinion.