Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 Togusa wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
It seems every day there is a marine player getting waxed by an index army that comes to Dakka for help or an explanation. Then people scold him about how bad he deployed or whatever. The truth of the matter is. Marines pay for defensive stats ON EVERY MODEL that are taken away completely by 50-60% of the weapons opponents field (this means it's almost impossible for an opponent to not have a "juicy" target) - they have almost no mobility - 3 pages of worthless stratagems- worthless psychic powers- and only above average firepower and army traits don't even apply to their vehicles. LOL. Is it any surprise they lose to index armies?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also - that table has plenty of cover.

I'm okay with losing a game. I'm not okay with losing a game, whether it is to rolls or not, due to unbalance. I've heard it argued before that the rules for Primaris have been on purpose made bad so as not to upset marine players thinking that their army will be replaced. Is this true?

Nah there's no conspiracy, basic marines in general just aren't good in this edition.

In truth the people you're playing with should understand that they have a huge upper hand and adjust their lists accordingly so the experience is fun for both players. It's not that hard. If you're expecting to play Primaris in tournaments, though, then getting smashed is kind of on you.

Being tabled turn 1 is by design.

 Togusa wrote:
I've heard it argued before that the rules for Primaris have been on purpose made bad so as not to upset marine players thinking that their army will be replaced. Is this true?

Most likely not. It is just that the marines overall are pretty mediocre at the moment, and the Primaris line is still very limited, so Primaris only force is lacking some tools.

I recommend getting some regular (rapid fire) Hellblasters and perhaps a Stormtalon (put lascannons on it.) These will help you to deal with heavier enemy units. Then maybe add some Inceptors (with bolters) or even Reavers to act as distraction and harass enemy infantry holding objectives. And most importantly, learn to hug cover.

Also, just play more games; you may have made some mistakes and the army may have some weaknesses, but this really still sounds like a totally freak occurrence, so you probably should not make terribly extensive conclusions about the viability of the army based on this one game.

 Togusa wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
It seems every day there is a marine player getting waxed by an index army that comes to Dakka for help or an explanation. Then people scold him about how bad he deployed or whatever. The truth of the matter is. Marines pay for defensive stats ON EVERY MODEL that are taken away completely by 50-60% of the weapons opponents field (this means it's almost impossible for an opponent to not have a "juicy" target) - they have almost no mobility - 3 pages of worthless stratagems- worthless psychic powers- and only above average firepower and army traits don't even apply to their vehicles. LOL. Is it any surprise they lose to index armies?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also - that table has plenty of cover.

I'm okay with losing a game. I'm not okay with losing a game, whether it is to rolls or not, due to unbalance. I've heard it argued before that the rules for Primaris have been on purpose made bad so as not to upset marine players thinking that their army will be replaced. Is this true?

No, it isn't. But to be honest Primaris are the safest investment to the future. They will receive new units in a regular basis form years to come, they are the new marines afterall. So don't be afraid. They will receive fixes every "patch" until they become competitive and good on their own right.

My biggest recomendation? Buy a "open war deck" and play with that. Is much better gaming experience.

 Togusa wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

 vaklor4 wrote:
Best you can do against Tau? Cover. If you really gotta, have cover in your deployment zones and just hunker down. That makes your marines a 2+ before AP, but otherwise...You really shouldnt be losing turn1 to tau. Theyre garbo.

Tau are not garbage.

Taking a 3+ to a 2+ while also simultaneously hiding in cover for the entire game isn't exactly engaging or an intelligent way to win if it's an objective based game.

Tau will sit on objectives and shoot at your 2+ with their longer range, higher AP weaponry. It's a losing proposition either way with his list. Are you seriously afraid of 18ppm boltgun marines?

Everyone keeps talking about cover, as if marker lights aren't a thing. I didn't get a single cover bonus because it was taken away from me with how stupid marker lights are.

Ok, here's where I have a question. What marker lights? The list you posted has no dedicated markerlight sources anywhere in it. The only potential markerlight sources he has are the Fire Warrior Shas'Uis who can be upgraded to have one for 3 points, and the "bunch of drones" you mention (without telling us what kinda drones they are). How many markerlight sources did your opponent have in their list? It takes 4 markerlights on a unit to be able to remove their save bonus for being in cover. You have 7 units in your army. How many of them were deployed in cover? Because Shas'Uis would only hit with their markerlights om 4+, or if they moved 5+. Assuming that the drones were Marker Drones, they only hit on a 5+, or a 4+ if they're near a model with a Drone Controller (either the Commanders or the Ghostkeels). So, even in the best case scenario, his markerlights would only hit on a 4+, meaning he would need on average 8 markerlight shots to get 4 on a single unit. So, 8 markerlights on average per unit you deployed in cover, under ideal circumstances. Even with the new strategem Tau have, that could only have been used once due to matched play rules, and still requires a markerlight hit to be used.

So again, how many markerlights did your opponent have? Because looking at the picture you posted, it looks like 1. He didn't have too many (and the ones he had aren't all the reliable) and 2. You didn't have many units deployed in such a way as to benefit from cover anyway. At most, assuming every drone he has is a Marker Drone and all 4 Shas'Uis have Markerlights, he has 16 Markerlights. Enough for, going by averages, removing cover from 2 units, without use of the strategem. It seems to me like either your opponent messed up how his markerlights work, you're exaggerating about never getting cover, or you didn't deploy many units in cover meaning he could focus his markerlights and you wouldn't have really benefited from cover anyway.

Looking at your picture, I think this is the same as a lot of people who get tabled in turn 1. There is very very little in LOS blocking terrain on that table. There isn't a whole lot of terrain period other than the one far corner. Also the LOS terrain you have on the table is set up in a way that would allow any army to deploy to ignore it. 8th edition needs LOS blocking terrain in the middle of the table and some smaller pieces in the deployment zones.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
It seems every day there is a marine player getting waxed by an index army that comes to Dakka for help or an explanation. Then people scold him about how bad he deployed or whatever. The truth of the matter is. Marines pay for defensive stats ON EVERY MODEL that are taken away completely by 50-60% of the weapons opponents field (this means it's almost impossible for an opponent to not have a "juicy" target) - they have almost no mobility - 3 pages of worthless stratagems- worthless psychic powers- and only above average firepower and army traits don't even apply to their vehicles. LOL. Is it any surprise they lose to index armies?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also - that table has plenty of cover.

I routinely beat Codex: IG with my Index: SoB.

Man, those poor IG getting beaten by an Index army, woe are they who are so cursed with an awful codex!

Not saying it can't happen - SOB are at a disadvantage against IG though. I mean...las guns hurt your girls on 4's....I can say pretty confidently that this IG player isn't spamming infantry squads and mortars against you. Because they will crush girls even harder than it crushes marines.

Codex Marines are pretty bad this Edition. The only reason people say they can win is Guilliman. I don't play UM, so my Marines have been Shelved for the time being....

I save my Loyalists for multi-player campaigns (so someone else can fill the gaps) and narratives.

 Togusa wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
It seems every day there is a marine player getting waxed by an index army that comes to Dakka for help or an explanation. Then people scold him about how bad he deployed or whatever. The truth of the matter is. Marines pay for defensive stats ON EVERY MODEL that are taken away completely by 50-60% of the weapons opponents field (this means it's almost impossible for an opponent to not have a "juicy" target) - they have almost no mobility - 3 pages of worthless stratagems- worthless psychic powers- and only above average firepower and army traits don't even apply to their vehicles. LOL. Is it any surprise they lose to index armies?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also - that table has plenty of cover.

I'm okay with losing a game. I'm not okay with losing a game, whether it is to rolls or not, due to unbalance. I've heard it argued before that the rules for Primaris have been on purpose made bad so as not to upset marine players thinking that their army will be replaced. Is this true?

We don't actually know the answer to that...but I'm pretty sure they aren't selling a lot of tactical squads right now...why would you? An intercessor looks much better than a tactical marine. The rules will likely get better eventually. If you want to put your best foot forward and play with the models you have. I would suggest playing ultra marines and getting Bobby G (or dark angels and play with azreal) and take nothing but full sized squads to reduce your drop number to increase your chances of going first. Marines best element is their auras (other armys would kill for auras this good). If you want to take a repulsor - you can use Tiguris to make the thing -1 to hit and +1 T every turn...and when this thing is buffed by guilliman...it does pretty horrendous damage. If you can trick your opponent into shooting at it when it's buffed (and he doesn't get lucky) you are winning. Another thing to use is an ancient with the relic standard (combined with hell-blasters it's the best combination in the book)

Start every game out with an orbital bombardment - usually it will do 0 damage but sometimes youll get lucky and do 2-3 mortal wounds to a few big targets. (this is literally the only useful stratgem in the book - except for the intercept stratagem and the predator stratagem (but that requires 3 predators 550 points or more)).

People will cry when you bring guilliman but it's because they don't understand how bad marines are without him.

wonder how many models you lost during morale phase, that could finish off depleted units.

The game does have a significant problem with first turn domination. its just the nature of shooting in this game.

but it also sounds like this tau guy us rolling REALLY hot.

otherwise i would suggest asking to do a army swap and trying to learn how his army functions. it may give you some insight into how to combat it.

Sorry you got ambushed by the "get gud" marine haters that seem to frequent this board. They mean well but come across like they (or anyone) has won the last 10 GTs with all primaris armies and the only reason your army isn't performing better is because you are terrible at this game. But they do raise some good points if you can get past the marine hate.

With primaris you're best off starting with all of your infantry out of LOS and honestly not using the armor. You have a fair amount of assault weapons so no penalty to hit, use it to start the game out of LOS. The 2 commanders coming out of deepstrike will be a problem. Keep this in mind but running more infantry and no armor will really help reduce their impact.

Get girlyman if you are playing against anything semi-competitive or run your guys as ravenguard (ironhands are better for survivability if you happen to play against dark reapers but the ravenguard strat is really good for most other armies). With character targeting rules make sure you have a unit or two out of LOS closer to the enemy but this guy really makes your army sing. Walk him forward surrounded by you guys and get to that 12-24" sweet spot and let fly. Raven guard will let you get relevant units into that 12-24" zone (rapid fire) and give you some protection (-1 to hit outside of 12") with their strat.

Drop the primaris armor. It is too points intensive. Too many guns on the repulsor means when your opponent blows it up (and they will, turn 1 or 2) you loose too much (I really wish this thing had no guns or just the onslaught cannon and was a flying, t8 super razorback for 150 points). The dread is over-costed and under-durable. It needs a 5++ and a 20 point reduction in cost (also that stupid plasma gun needs to be 3d3...)

Heavy weapon hellblasters are terrible. Mix rapid fire with assault or just run all rapid fire, should help. Also the inclusion of the banner bearing ancient is great advice. Overcharge the hell out of those already dead marines and hopefully they can help earn their points back.

You seem to already realize that your opponent was rolling crazy good. If he keeps it up just make sure to use his dice next time. Chalk it up to bad-luck and a learning experience. His list seems good but not unbeatable. If you could expand your army to include a couple units of scouts instead of one of those intercessors it could help with board control/anti-deepstrike (or you could just do what some posters advocate for and just use the imperium keyword to replace your weakest units until you end up with an IG army...)

Now when you get tabled bottom of turn 2 by 30ish dark reapers and 12 shinning spears or manticores, tank commanders and deepstriking scions or 12 obliterators + cultists and berzerkers I'm not sure I have any advice for that....

Hi Togusa, I play Primaris too, there are things you can do to improve your list...

First, you're now a Raven Guard successor chapter. Primaris need to a) leverage their toughness and b) get some goddamn maneuverability in their army. RG does both these things for you really well. I've tried all the chapter tactics out and unless you're fielding Rowboat, your should go RG for your Primaris. In particular, strike form the shadows transforms agressors into a top tier unit, and can also be really useful to drop a squad of your intercessors on a distance objective: those guys, in cover, with -1 to hit aren't going anywhere unless your opponent wastes good guns on them.

Secondly, Hellblasters are amazing. Get a box of them and be able to run up to 3 squads. They can take care of any target really, and synergise sooo well with some other models you should have... Cap, Lieutenant and Ancient. Slap the Ascendent banner relic on your ancient and watch as your hellblasters mutliate your opponent's key units - in their turn. Lots of way to use them, but ancient, reorolling ones to hit and wound will put so much hurt out.

Thirdly, I'm afraid to tell you that the redemptor is distinctly average, for his points. If you must run him, do so with either a captain in 6" so that he can actually move and still maybe hit something, or a spare CP for wisdom of the anceints. Also, he loves the libby's might of heroes spell, as this leaves him on T8. As you know, the guy is made of paper and folds just as easy, so you need to give him every chance you can. Likewise, the repulsor. Some swear by it, I just swear at it. 330pts will almost buy you 2 quad-las mortis dreadnoughts. That is 8 Lascannons, on a unit that can benefit from your ravenguard ability.

Lastly, yeah, you need new dreadnoughts in your life. Leviathans, contemptors, mortis, deredeos, venerables, chaplains; they're all a better investment of points than most options you have. They're not strictly Primaris, but they don;t break the scale of your units like squatmarines do, so I say go for it. In particular, if you can get your hands on a Leviathan with double storm cannon array, he clocks in 20 or so pts cheaper(!) than your repulsor, is 2+ to hit, 2+/4++ saves, T8 W14 and pumps out TWENTY S7 -2 D2 shots, hitting on 2+. And has two heavy flamers. Build around that guy. The libby buff works even better on him, as T9 means half of lascannon shots coming in are failing to wound him, and he's still saving on a 4+ against them. And remember, he's gonna be -1 to hit against nearly all tau, as they are desperate to keep their distance. He really is night and day with a repulsor, in terms of threat and toughness.

Anyway, don't give up on them. Give inceptors a go too, they're pretty badass now. Good luck.

 Togusa wrote:

Spoiler:

 Farseer_V2 wrote:
Sure, in Xenomancer land. I'm not going to bother engaging with you in this regard because as has been proven across multiple threads that engaging you simply isn't worth it.

Ultimately OP is likely lieing (and most likely a sock puppet account of yours) because the mathematics of him being so badly beaten in one turn are incredibly unlikely and there are any number of tactical plays he could have engaged in to have been more competitive against what is widely considered one of the worst index lists. Regardless if he (or you) want to acknowledge that it is still true.

Um. I do not know this fellow, and I am most definitely a real person. There are members of Dakka that have been here for years that know me in real life.

Also, I am not twisting the truth. At the end of the first shooting phase all that remained was my captain. The repulsor was destroyed by Longstrike and 1 of the ghost keels. Remember, the Hammerhead is -5 rend, so no save for a repulsor. It does Mortal wounds for longstrike in addion as well. The hellblaster squad lost 4 models and failed leadership twice removing the 5th model. the 15 intercessors were all killed by pulserifle fire from the fire warriors and the smart missiles on one of the commanders. The other commander with melta killed the redemptor with help from Ghost keel #2.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Farseer_V2 wrote:
Sure, in Xenomancer land. I'm not going to bother engaging with you in this regard because as has been proven across multiple threads that engaging you simply isn't worth it.

Ultimately OP is likely lieing (and most likely a sock puppet account of yours) because the mathematics of him being so badly beaten in one turn are incredibly unlikely and there are any number of tactical plays he could have engaged in to have been more competitive against what is widely considered one of the worst index lists. Regardless if he (or you) want to acknowledge that it is still true.

It was mathematically unlikely.

He should play the game with all the same lists again. That's my main advice.

We will be trying it again next week.

This is an image from the game at the end of shooting turn 1.

Its always very interesting to see other people's tables. My friends and I play with about twice that much terrain. Including large piece of painted styrofoam to raise the general terrain up. I try to keep my pieces to around 1' x 6" for structures and woods, but we go up to 1' x 2' for hills and such.

Our only house rule is that you can't put any structure piece closer than 6" to another. That keeps you from walling out vehicles. We're also really close to just declareing anything that is 100% behind ruins or forest to get a +1 to cover, or just not be shootable. We haven't decided yet, we don't usually like house rules. And I'm moving in a month anyway, so I'll have to adapt to whatever new groups I find. But it seems like many people need more terrain. I've gotten a lot of mine from dollar stores (for the fake plants and such). If you can find old aquarium stuff at a discount it works well too.

right, a slightly less snarky comment from me now that we have some more info.

The first and biggest point is Holy moly that table.

Two pieces of LoS blocking terrein. Only the towers. The ruins are mostly useless because you can see right through them. Try playing with a house rule that you cant shoot through them, it will help next time.

Even then you have 2/3 of the table where its an open shooting gallery.
If you play the basic 12" from edge deployment you can hide 1 whole rhino in your deployment zone. Everything else in the open to get shot.

With a table like that 'tactics' don't matter, your going to get your ass shot off.

How did 20 pulse rifle shots do 30 wounds on Primaris?
Even if he got into rapid fire range somehow on t1 its still no where near close. (40 shots, 20 hits, 13 wounds, ~4 failed saves so 2 dead primaris)

The dread and tank dying isn't that unusual, tho slightly above average. Its kinda what Hammerheads and Ghostkeels do. Which is why you want to deploy out of LoS (see point about the table making that impossible).

Others have already touched on the issues with a pure primaris force.

Ordana wrote:
right, a slightly less snarky comment from me now that we have some more info.

The first and biggest point is Holy moly that table.

Two pieces of LoS blocking terrein. Only the towers. The ruins are mostly useless because you can see right through them. Try playing with a house rule that you cant shoot through them, it will help next time.

Even then you have 2/3 of the table where its an open shooting gallery.
If you play the basic 12" from edge deployment you can hide 1 whole rhino in your deployment zone. Everything else in the open to get shot.

With a table like that 'tactics' don't matter, your going to get your ass shot off.

How did 20 pulse rifle shots do 30 wounds on Primaris?
Even if he got into rapid fire range somehow on t1 its still no where near close. (40 shots, 20 hits, 13 wounds, ~4 failed saves so 2 dead primaris)

The dread and tank dying isn't that unusual, tho slightly above average. Its kinda what Hammerheads and Ghostkeels do. Which is why you want to deploy out of LoS (see point about the table making that impossible).

Others have already touched on the issues with a pure primaris force.

looking at those towers, I dont think that the primaris tank would be hidden behind them from most angles.

Yeah, the Repulsor is enormous, it does not hide easily. And then its degrading stats are just crippling. I like the way it looks (surprisingly), but its mostly been an expensive distraction for my opponent to shoot at. The Redemptor is generally in the same situation. I'm probably going to stick with old style dreads from now on.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Togusa wrote:
Yesterday I was able to play a 1400 point game against one of my friends.

The game was my Primaris Salamanders against his Tau. We used one of the new game modes from Chapter Approved.

Needless to say, it didn't go well.

He Seized the Initiative, and I was tabled turn 1. No return fire. The game lasted less than 30 minutes.

So far that has been my experience. Every time I play with my new marines, if I get second turn, I have a 100% loss rate. Why did they put out these new models if they weren't going to make them appropriately costed and have at the very least some decent rules? It is very, very frustrating.

Here are the lists.

Tau:

2 Commanders and a bunch of drones
Two hammer heads, one with longstrike.

4. 5 man squads of fire warriors
2 Ghost Keels

Marines:

1 Captain power sword/MC Stalker Bolter
3 5 Man Intercessor Squads w/assault bolters
1 5 Man Hellblasters Squad w/heavy plasma incenrators
1 Redemptor w/Heavy Plasma and frag launchers/Onslaught cannon.
1 Repulsor w/Heavy Onslaught/Onslaught C/Twin Lascannon/Stubber

Hate to break it to you man. This edition is just a continuation of the last ones in regards to space marines getting the worst rules...92% of the codex is crap. And as you experienced - you have no ability to beat even index armies unless you go first.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Backspacehacker wrote:
You ran pure primaris that's your problem as well. Aside from hell blasters really, primaris are crap. Those multi damage Tau weapons will rip you apart. You had nothing to drop in on them other then a few balloon marines.

Next time take drop pod with stern guard or deep strike some assault terminators with hammers and shields. You then force them to Target your terminators and lets you move up the board, if they don't, those terminators are going to rip anything Tau apart next turn.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Like you have no synergy in your list at all.

You are right and wrong here - drop pods and terminators are terrible - primaris marines are actually preferable to terms and drop pods.

What on earth are you going on about man? Loyalist Marines had top tier rules last edition. Grav cannons, centstars, assault cannon razorbacks and drop pods. And thats even before the gladius formation rules.


Marines being bad,,, maybe in 4th edition,

Nah man, eldar could challenge them, CLEARLY marines were bad in 6th/7th.

 Togusa wrote:

This is an image from the game at the end of shooting turn 1.

That's approximately half the cover I'm used to using, and approximately a third of what I think the game needs.

 Wolfblade wrote:

Spoiler:

Table wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Togusa wrote:
Yesterday I was able to play a 1400 point game against one of my friends.

The game was my Primaris Salamanders against his Tau. We used one of the new game modes from Chapter Approved.

Needless to say, it didn't go well.

He Seized the Initiative, and I was tabled turn 1. No return fire. The game lasted less than 30 minutes.

So far that has been my experience. Every time I play with my new marines, if I get second turn, I have a 100% loss rate. Why did they put out these new models if they weren't going to make them appropriately costed and have at the very least some decent rules? It is very, very frustrating.

Here are the lists.

Tau:

2 Commanders and a bunch of drones
Two hammer heads, one with longstrike.

4. 5 man squads of fire warriors
2 Ghost Keels

Marines:

1 Captain power sword/MC Stalker Bolter
3 5 Man Intercessor Squads w/assault bolters
1 5 Man Hellblasters Squad w/heavy plasma incenrators
1 Redemptor w/Heavy Plasma and frag launchers/Onslaught cannon.
1 Repulsor w/Heavy Onslaught/Onslaught C/Twin Lascannon/Stubber

Hate to break it to you man. This edition is just a continuation of the last ones in regards to space marines getting the worst rules...92% of the codex is crap. And as you experienced - you have no ability to beat even index armies unless you go first.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Backspacehacker wrote:
You ran pure primaris that's your problem as well. Aside from hell blasters really, primaris are crap. Those multi damage Tau weapons will rip you apart. You had nothing to drop in on them other then a few balloon marines.

Next time take drop pod with stern guard or deep strike some assault terminators with hammers and shields. You then force them to Target your terminators and lets you move up the board, if they don't, those terminators are going to rip anything Tau apart next turn.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Like you have no synergy in your list at all.

You are right and wrong here - drop pods and terminators are terrible - primaris marines are actually preferable to terms and drop pods.

What on earth are you going on about man? Loyalist Marines had top tier rules last edition. Grav cannons, centstars, assault cannon razorbacks and drop pods. And thats even before the gladius formation rules.


Marines being bad,,, maybe in 4th edition,

Nah man, eldar could challenge them, CLEARLY marines were bad in 6th/7th.

Yeah but Tau had a answer for scatter bike spam so that clearly made eldar complete garbage in 7th. Seriously. The WK was WAY overcosted. Srs.

Ok, snark off. Its just hard for me to feel bad for marines or anyone sans Orcs and Nids because I had to play with one of the worst codexs ever released... 6th edition CSM. But in the spirit of being constructive ill have to add that this amount of terrain plus your deployment and a subpar marine list lead to a tabling. I know you are new and dont have many models but you need to get some games under your belt and get some more terrain on the table. Perhaps ask your play group to bring softer lists while you build up your army.

Table wrote:

 Wolfblade wrote:

Spoiler:

Table wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Togusa wrote:
Yesterday I was able to play a 1400 point game against one of my friends.

The game was my Primaris Salamanders against his Tau. We used one of the new game modes from Chapter Approved.

Needless to say, it didn't go well.

He Seized the Initiative, and I was tabled turn 1. No return fire. The game lasted less than 30 minutes.

So far that has been my experience. Every time I play with my new marines, if I get second turn, I have a 100% loss rate. Why did they put out these new models if they weren't going to make them appropriately costed and have at the very least some decent rules? It is very, very frustrating.

Here are the lists.

Tau:

2 Commanders and a bunch of drones
Two hammer heads, one with longstrike.

4. 5 man squads of fire warriors
2 Ghost Keels

Marines:

1 Captain power sword/MC Stalker Bolter
3 5 Man Intercessor Squads w/assault bolters
1 5 Man Hellblasters Squad w/heavy plasma incenrators
1 Redemptor w/Heavy Plasma and frag launchers/Onslaught cannon.
1 Repulsor w/Heavy Onslaught/Onslaught C/Twin Lascannon/Stubber

Hate to break it to you man. This edition is just a continuation of the last ones in regards to space marines getting the worst rules...92% of the codex is crap. And as you experienced - you have no ability to beat even index armies unless you go first.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Backspacehacker wrote:
You ran pure primaris that's your problem as well. Aside from hell blasters really, primaris are crap. Those multi damage Tau weapons will rip you apart. You had nothing to drop in on them other then a few balloon marines.

Next time take drop pod with stern guard or deep strike some assault terminators with hammers and shields. You then force them to Target your terminators and lets you move up the board, if they don't, those terminators are going to rip anything Tau apart next turn.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Like you have no synergy in your list at all.

You are right and wrong here - drop pods and terminators are terrible - primaris marines are actually preferable to terms and drop pods.

What on earth are you going on about man? Loyalist Marines had top tier rules last edition. Grav cannons, centstars, assault cannon razorbacks and drop pods. And thats even before the gladius formation rules.


Marines being bad,,, maybe in 4th edition,

Nah man, eldar could challenge them, CLEARLY marines were bad in 6th/7th.

Yeah but Tau had a answer for scatter bike spam so that clearly made eldar complete garbage in 7th. Seriously. The WK was WAY overcosted. Srs.

Ok, snark off. Its just hard for me to feel bad for marines or anyone sans Orcs and Nids because I had to play with one of the worst codexs ever released... 6th edition CSM. But in the spirit of being constructive ill have to add that this amount of terrain plus your deployment and a subpar marine list lead to a tabling. I know you are new and dont have many models but you need to get some games under your belt and get some more terrain on the table. Perhaps ask your play group to bring softer lists while you build up your army.

(last OT post) yeah, but a stormsurge could be instagib by a tank shock! clearly Tau bottom tier below DE and orks

 Galas wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
He tabled you, top of turn 1?

In one shooting phase just to kill the repulsor alone he'd need both hammerheads, the ghostkeels, and one other anti-tank wepaon, presumably on one of the Commanders. That's how bad Tau shooting averages are.

The 4 Fire Warrior squads can do 20 wounds, max, unless they're in rapid fire, which is only 10 of your 21 primaris marines, if they hit and wound with every single shot, and you fail every single save.

The other Commander is unlikely to kill the Redemptor Dreadnought by himself (they have 14 wounds right?) with only a maximum-antitank-loadout damage potential of 24 wounds.

EDIT:
I agree with Ordana. There is almost damn near no way that tau army could do 44 Marine wounds, plus ~30 tank wounds in one shooting phase. It would be the dice-rolling of a lifetime.

You don't see the big picture here. After shooting, the Tau army charged him and killed his few remaining marines in meele.

Now, sorry for being snarky. About Primaris, after chapter approved point reductions I think most of their infantry are very competent. Intercessors at 18ppm, Hellblasters are good too, and Inceptors have become actually usefull. The Redemptor Dreadnought is usable, and the Agressors I think are balanced too. I think the weakest part of the Primaris line are the characters, Reivers and the Repulsor.
But to be honest that was a pseudo-competitive Tau list. It could be much more competitive, but it wasn't a bad list by Tau standards.

Primaris characters are simply superior to standard marine ones, that does depend on the chapter though

Dark Angels Primaris Captain can have 7 S8 AP-3 D3 damage attacks, costs 95 points, can slaughter tanks and heavy infantry twice or three times its cost no problem

Okay so even if we agree turn 1 tabling is unlikely result if there's proper terrain(ie lots of LOS blocking big walls. Other terrain is pretty much useless in 8th ed) and properly played assuming those are correctly handled would that army STILL have enough stuff remaining to be viable...I mean sure losing 60% is not tabled out but odds are you can't cause enough damage in return to avoid losing rest on turn 2.

It seems more of typical 8th ed turn 1 decisions. He who gets to shoot at will first wins. If you don't get turn 1 better hope there's enough terrain to help or you have plenty of deep strikes to do crippling beta strike. Either way turn 2 and turn 3 will likely be just mopping up.

And power armour units are in poor shape in 8th ed which just compounds it here...Primaris are better off allied to IG rather than solo.

 Dovis wrote:


Primaris characters are simply superior to standard marine ones, that does depend on the chapter though

Dark Angels Primaris Captain can have 7 S8 AP-3 D3 damage attacks, costs 95 points, can slaughter tanks and heavy infantry twice or three times its cost no problem

At least vanilla Primaris characters have gak weapon options. They can't get good stuff like relic blades, thunder hammers or storm shields, and they cannot take most relics.

For reference OP, here's a pic of my half of my gaming table. I think this is after T1 by the looks of it. Every item on the table is LOS blocking, and the opponent has similar on their side. I think it's critical.

Note there's a big gap at the front of the picture but in reality I dont find the far corners require that much terrain in them, and it's nice to keep dice and CPs somewhere!

I find in this ed more than any other reserves are critical to preventing valuable things from being alpha'd off the table. I always deploy things on the table very defensively if at all possible and keep my most valuable stuff in reserve. This way if I go first I pop out of cover and deep strike in to do my thing. If I go second then my stuff on the table is protected and then I drop in for my attack after weathering my opponent's turn. Don't fool yourself SM have plenty of tools in the box for dealing with any army. It's just how you use them. I play primarily Tyranids but have used and played against nearly everything and SM have always had a leg up. They might not always be the OP/best army but they can handle nearly everything.

I really think the biggest issue is the lack of bodies. Even by Primaris standards. A Repulsor AND a Redemptor in a 1400 pt game is half your army right there for two models. Against Tau, they will get wrecked by rail shots pretty easily. Once those two are down, there's really not much beef in the army left.

I'm just going to echo some of the others here and say you've got a pretty blank table there.

Beyond that, I'd say the table helps the other player capitalize on another potential issue. Your list has a nice mix of things in it, but given a lot of line of sight on the table, that allows your opponent to optimize every weapon he has by firing at the most efficient target for each type of weapon. I've seen all Primaris armies do reasonably well just by bringing ALL Primaris. An army with no vehicles means the enemy has to fire his anti-armour weapons and basic infantry, and thus, waste some of his fire potential.

This doesn't mean you should toss your vehicles necessarily, but just that you should be aware of what opportunities you might be giving your opponent when building a list and deploying it.

Primaris are part of a larger codex, they do not function on their own well. If my opponent were wanting to field a primaris only army I would immediately pull out a low power list to make it a fun game and not a curb stomping. still sounds like with those results you were not using enough LOS blocking terrain which is a common problem, the game is designed around it yet so often it is missing in games. deeply in terrain, hide from units and play peek a boo where you can see only a few units one being your target.