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Would you prefer Horus Heresy was 7th or 8th?
7th: I play 30k as my main game
7th: I play 30k as my secondary game
8th: I play 30k as my main game
8th: I play 30k as my secondary game
7th: I just prefer the rules
8th: I just prefer the rules
8th: I just want to use my 30k army for both game systems

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Made in gb
Irked Blood Angel Scout with Combat Knife




I think after all the rage at the Imperial Armour index’s it’s obvious that FW doesn’t have enough people to try to port HH to 8th at the moment. Especially with all the work they are doing on specialist games.
I’d much rather they carried on finishing the legions and then come up with their own rule set. I don’t think I could stomach a smite phase in HH. Also every time GW main changes something in 8th they’re not going to play test how it will effect HH they will only be interested in 40k. So each chapter approved book could potentially cause major headaches for the 30k player base. I can remember a few arguments with people who tried to incorporate Death from the skies into 30k games.

 
   
Made in us
Towering Hierophant Bio-Titan






Kasper Hawser wrote:
I think after all the rage at the Imperial Armour index’s it’s obvious that FW doesn’t have enough people to try to port HH to 8th at the moment. Especially with all the work they are doing on specialist games.
I’d much rather they carried on finishing the legions and then come up with their own rule set. I don’t think I could stomach a smite phase in HH. Also every time GW main changes something in 8th they’re not going to play test how it will effect HH they will only be interested in 40k. So each chapter approved book could potentially cause major headaches for the 30k player base. I can remember a few arguments with people who tried to incorporate Death from the skies into 30k games.


This is more of a reason to collapse FW into regular GW. Or at least the 40k side of it. Stop having 2 studios produce rules for 1 product. 1 studio should be doing it all consistently. HH really is more of a expansion of 7th with a different set of armies then a whole new game. It should be handled by GW.

   
Made in de
Nurgle Veteran Marine with the Flu




I voted for 8th: I just prefer the rules
I read FW books HH 1-4, so I know a bit of the HH rules and I played 7th and 8th 40K.

What would the HH gain from 8th ed rules in my eyes?
1. CC phase in 8th is much more complex than 7th. It is more fun, more tactically deep and more controllable for the player.
2. Tanks actually feel like tanks in 8th. Tanks are mobile gun platforms that actually are quite durable in 8th. HH didn't have the problem as much as 7th 40K, where a Rhino-tank died faster than the Space Marine it wanted to protect. HH has several layers of tank protection like armoured ceramite, so the point of fast dieing tanks is not as bad, but there are still the horrible movement and transport rules of 7th, making any tank with more than one weapon pretty clumsy.

3. The psychic phase: Again, not as important in HH due to only 3 of the 24 factions or so actually rely on psykers as far as I know. But still the psychic phase in 7th was very bad, so bad that I always hesitated to use any sorcerers with my CSM. One die role before the game could decide if your sorcerer was worth 70points or 250points. Choosing psychic powers is one big advantage of 8th and the whole psychic phase is much more straightforward than the 7th system, where you had one psyker and all the others were on battery duty and trying to deny a psychick power was usually pointless and never successful.

4. The ap system. In 7th it was all or nothing, meaning that usually any Ap4+ weapon was useless and any AP3- weapon was ace. There were outliers like assault cannon, autocannon and eldar trickery, but on the whole in 8th every weapon feels useful, which could be a big plus for HH as well.

5. Movement rules/ unit types
The mess of 7th with all the unit types (don't get me started on jet/jump pack differences...) has been solved in 8th with the simplest solution imaginable: the movement value. I love it.

What would HH lose in my eyes with 8th?
1. Initiative: Especially Emperors Children do a lot with that value and the respective rules in 8th of the Eldar and Slaanesh daemons don't impress me.

2. Morale:
The morale phase in 8th is easy and fast, but also rather shallow and rarely important. I liked the 7th ed. morale rules, in 40K they never came into play due to 90% of the armies being ld 10 or fearless. 8th 40K has a similar trend.
The HH used the morale phase impressively.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Vaktathi wrote:
Ultimately the point is that swapping army lists and force composition rules does not a whole new game make. HH is a different flavor of 40k, but it's still 40k. It's not like going from 40k to Necromunda or Gorkamorka or BFG or the like. They just haven't updated HH to use 8E rules yet, but that's really not so much a matter of HH being its own game as FW not being on the ball for the release of 8E (which may or may not be their fault).

They just released a 30k rulebook didn't they?

tremere47-fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate, leads to triple riptide spam  
   
Made in gb
Been Around the Block




Actually since the Horus Heresy rule book was released it is considered a different game that uses different rules, even says as much in the rulebook itself. Just because it is based off an older edition of 40k does not make it the same game, otherwise shadow war would and should be considered the same game as 40k 2nd and clearly due to what “some” people are should be updated to be the same as 8th edition, Age of sigmar is clearly fantasy 9th edition and not it’s own game and halo 2 is clearly the same game as halo 5 so should be updated to be exactly the same.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




AoS is in no way Fantasy 9th. It's its own game that is very clear. The two games have completely different rules, playstyles, armies and backgrounds.

tremere47-fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate, leads to triple riptide spam  
   
Made in gb
Been Around the Block




pm713 wrote:
AoS is in no way Fantasy 9th. It's its own game that is very clear. The two games have completely different rules, playstyles, armies and backgrounds.


Exactly my point. However “most” of the armies are the same, and the background is the same, aos’s story is a continuation of the old world for example every time they mention the world that was.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




TeAXIIIT13 wrote:
pm713 wrote:
AoS is in no way Fantasy 9th. It's its own game that is very clear. The two games have completely different rules, playstyles, armies and backgrounds.


Exactly my point. However “most” of the armies are the same, and the background is the same, aos’s story is a continuation of the old world for example every time they mention the world that was.

It's hardly a continuation when almost everyone dies. Like having 40k with Emps, Khaine and Chaos.

Most armies got changed so they're different e.g. Wanderers.

tremere47-fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate, leads to triple riptide spam  
   
Made in gb
Been Around the Block




pm713 wrote:
TeAXIIIT13 wrote:
pm713 wrote:
AoS is in no way Fantasy 9th. It's its own game that is very clear. The two games have completely different rules, playstyles, armies and backgrounds.


Exactly my point. However “most” of the armies are the same, and the background is the same, aos’s story is a continuation of the old world for example every time they mention the world that was.

It's hardly a continuation when almost everyone dies. Like having 40k with Emps, Khaine and Chaos.

Most armies got changed so they're different e.g. Wanderers.

You mean like how a lot of people died between the heresy and 40k current and most of the armies changed e.g no more legions they is now chapters and chaos warbands? And yet you still want to say that heresy and 40k are the same thing?
   
Made in us
The Last Chancer Who Survived




On moon miranda.

pm713 wrote:
 Vaktathi wrote:
Ultimately the point is that swapping army lists and force composition rules does not a whole new game make. HH is a different flavor of 40k, but it's still 40k. It's not like going from 40k to Necromunda or Gorkamorka or BFG or the like. They just haven't updated HH to use 8E rules yet, but that's really not so much a matter of HH being its own game as FW not being on the ball for the release of 8E (which may or may not be their fault).

They just released a 30k rulebook didn't they?
I was under the impression it's a recollection of the existing rules and FAQ's into a single book isn't it? I haven't seen it, I think it only started shipping like thursday or something. Is it something more than that?

IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.

Heavy Gear Painting Log, Northern Guard, Southern Republican Army, and Terrain
The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts.  
   
Made in fr
Veteran Inquisitorial Tyranid Xenokiller





France

It is the complete rulebook of 7th with the faq into a single book.

30k is as different from 40k as AOS is from WHFB, noone can deny that. I can't understand why different games should have the same rulesets. At least, now the ones who enjoy 7th (revised) have their game, and the ones who enjoy 8th have their game.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/31 00:26:24


   
Made in gb
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain





Norwich

Lots of these pols kicking about at the moment
[Thumb - IMG_1166.PNG]


   
Made in us
The Last Chancer Who Survived




On moon miranda.

 godardc wrote:
It is the complete rulebook of 7th with the faq into a single book.
Interesting, so they appear to be splitting it off now and sticking to 7E, didn't realize that. Not sure why they're sticking to that, it's the first time FW hasn't gotten on board with an edition change like that. It's curious that Corp is allowing that. It's also curious given that 7E 40k was...from a business & market perspective, about as low as GW ever got.


30k is as different from 40k as AOS is from WHFB, noone can deny that.
Because until the 7E/8E split they weren't, they were just different army sets, most of which are variations around the most popular 40k army. Basically they changed up a bit of the army construction rules and made a bajillion Space Marine sub-faction army lists, and that was the big difference, they played at the same scales with the same numbers of models and largely the same rules and often entirely swappable model collections. Until that edition change, there was nowhere near as much difference between 40k and 30k as AoS and 8E Fantasy.

IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.

Heavy Gear Painting Log, Northern Guard, Southern Republican Army, and Terrain
The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts.  
   
Made in au
Preparing the Invasion of Terra






Brisbane, Australia

 Vaktathi wrote:
 godardc wrote:
It is the complete rulebook of 7th with the faq into a single book.
Interesting, so they appear to be splitting it off now and sticking to 7E, didn't realize that. Not sure why they're sticking to that, it's the first time FW hasn't gotten on board with an edition change like that. It's curious that Corp is allowing that. It's also curious given that 7E 40k was...from a business & market perspective, about as low as GW ever got.


30k is as different from 40k as AOS is from WHFB, noone can deny that.
Because until the 7E/8E split they weren't, they were just different army sets, most of which are variations around the most popular 40k army. Basically they changed up a bit of the army construction rules and made a bajillion Space Marine sub-faction army lists, and that was the big difference, they played at the same scales with the same numbers of models and largely the same rules and often entirely swappable model collections. Until that edition change, there was nowhere near as much difference between 40k and 30k as AoS and 8E Fantasy.

From a Reddit AMA done by James Hewitt, the plan was to go to 8th but with FW currently being low on writing staff after both the formation of the Specialist Studio, The Middle Earth Team and the unfortunate passing of Alan Bligh and the already high stack of work FW has on its plate currently they just didn't have the resources for it. Add to that the fact that the plans that were in the works to convert HH to 8th were that of Mr Bligh, and we are here.

They'll probably eventually get around to doing it, but it won't be any time soon.

Multiple thin coats are always better than one thick coat.
 
   
Made in gb
Been Around the Block




 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
 Vaktathi wrote:
 godardc wrote:
It is the complete rulebook of 7th with the faq into a single book.
Interesting, so they appear to be splitting it off now and sticking to 7E, didn't realize that. Not sure why they're sticking to that, it's the first time FW hasn't gotten on board with an edition change like that. It's curious that Corp is allowing that. It's also curious given that 7E 40k was...from a business & market perspective, about as low as GW ever got.


30k is as different from 40k as AOS is from WHFB, noone can deny that.
Because until the 7E/8E split they weren't, they were just different army sets, most of which are variations around the most popular 40k army. Basically they changed up a bit of the army construction rules and made a bajillion Space Marine sub-faction army lists, and that was the big difference, they played at the same scales with the same numbers of models and largely the same rules and often entirely swappable model collections. Until that edition change, there was nowhere near as much difference between 40k and 30k as AoS and 8E Fantasy.

From a Reddit AMA done by James Hewitt, the plan was to go to 8th but with FW currently being low on writing staff after both the formation of the Specialist Studio, The Middle Earth Team and the unfortunate passing of Alan Bligh and the already high stack of work FW has on its plate currently they just didn't have the resources for it. Add to that the fact that the plans that were in the works to convert HH to 8th were that of Mr Bligh, and we are here.

They'll probably eventually get around to doing it, but it won't be any time soon.


Link? Always provide proof when making claims like that
   
Made in au
Preparing the Invasion of Terra






Brisbane, Australia

TeAXIIIT13 wrote:
 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
 Vaktathi wrote:
 godardc wrote:
It is the complete rulebook of 7th with the faq into a single book.
Interesting, so they appear to be splitting it off now and sticking to 7E, didn't realize that. Not sure why they're sticking to that, it's the first time FW hasn't gotten on board with an edition change like that. It's curious that Corp is allowing that. It's also curious given that 7E 40k was...from a business & market perspective, about as low as GW ever got.


30k is as different from 40k as AOS is from WHFB, noone can deny that.
Because until the 7E/8E split they weren't, they were just different army sets, most of which are variations around the most popular 40k army. Basically they changed up a bit of the army construction rules and made a bajillion Space Marine sub-faction army lists, and that was the big difference, they played at the same scales with the same numbers of models and largely the same rules and often entirely swappable model collections. Until that edition change, there was nowhere near as much difference between 40k and 30k as AoS and 8E Fantasy.

From a Reddit AMA done by James Hewitt, the plan was to go to 8th but with FW currently being low on writing staff after both the formation of the Specialist Studio, The Middle Earth Team and the unfortunate passing of Alan Bligh and the already high stack of work FW has on its plate currently they just didn't have the resources for it. Add to that the fact that the plans that were in the works to convert HH to 8th were that of Mr Bligh, and we are here.

They'll probably eventually get around to doing it, but it won't be any time soon.


Link? Always provide proof when making claims like that


Here.

Sorry, did mean to post it but I forgot to actually paste the url.
The various other answers on the AMA mention the resource issue FW is having.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/12/31 09:50:51


Multiple thin coats are always better than one thick coat.
 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




TeAXIIIT13 wrote:
pm713 wrote:
TeAXIIIT13 wrote:
pm713 wrote:
AoS is in no way Fantasy 9th. It's its own game that is very clear. The two games have completely different rules, playstyles, armies and backgrounds.


Exactly my point. However “most” of the armies are the same, and the background is the same, aos’s story is a continuation of the old world for example every time they mention the world that was.

It's hardly a continuation when almost everyone dies. Like having 40k with Emps, Khaine and Chaos.

Most armies got changed so they're different e.g. Wanderers.

You mean like how a lot of people died between the heresy and 40k current and most of the armies changed e.g no more legions they is now chapters and chaos warbands? And yet you still want to say that heresy and 40k are the same thing?

The scale is completely different. Legions got smaller. Fantasy armies vanished. Dark Eldar changed. Fantasy factions were removed.

40k and 30k are different but very similar. 30k is largely focused on Marine V Marine but uses rules that are incredibly similar to 7th. AoS is focused on loose units and is pretty simple. Fantasy was focused on ranked units and was very complicated. They are not the same thing.

tremere47-fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate, leads to triple riptide spam  
   
Made in gb
Sinewy Scourge




Birmingham

 Formosa wrote:
So over the last day or so the results seem to support that it's primarily 40k players on 40k forums that want the change, I'm seeing the opposite on primarily 30k forums, I'm also speaking to several other people who have done polls on the same subject to merge our results and get a broader picture.

Interestingly I'm also seeing a lot of 30k players ask for 7th to be finished up with every legion and unique unit, so if it moves to 8th it can move as a whole, which is a sentiment I haven't seen even once on dakka, I may update the poll with this option.


Your reading comprehension is terrible. Me and at least two other people have said in this very thread that we'd like to see HH finish in 7th before switching to 8th.
   
Made in us
[DCM]
Abel





Washington State

 Imateria wrote:
 Formosa wrote:
So over the last day or so the results seem to support that it's primarily 40k players on 40k forums that want the change, I'm seeing the opposite on primarily 30k forums, I'm also speaking to several other people who have done polls on the same subject to merge our results and get a broader picture.

Interestingly I'm also seeing a lot of 30k players ask for 7th to be finished up with every legion and unique unit, so if it moves to 8th it can move as a whole, which is a sentiment I haven't seen even once on dakka, I may update the poll with this option.


Your reading comprehension is terrible. Me and at least two other people have said in this very thread that we'd like to see HH finish in 7th before switching to 8th.


I actually said that 30K needs to finish in 7th and then move over to 8th as a whole in my post on the first page. The OP wasn't around back in March 2017 when 8th was announced. If he went back and searched this forum, he would find a very long, and sometimes heated debate about 30K and which rules edition.

Kara Sloan shoots through Time and Design Space for a Negative Play Experience  
   
Made in pl
Regular Dakkanaut





 godardc wrote:

30k is as different from 40k as AOS is from WHFB, noone can deny that.

What?

Everyone with eyes sees 30K is mere expansion to 40K, always was, always will be. Only a bunch of die hard elitists (who, between others, diss players using Calth/Prospero models as 'fake' 30Keers) are desperate to "prove" their game is somehow different, so they can then ""prove"" it's better. FW laziness doesn't change that. What FW should have done was releasing Index 30K with trial rules for Legions, then, once the feedback was gathered, released updated Army books. Hell, GW team did 90% of the job for them, they could have just copied stats of SM stuff, come up with missing rules for 30K gear (which would be tiny in number, even Volkite and Contemptors made its way to 40K these days), done. Bunch of diehards wanting rules for ancient, bad system could have been placated with literally 1 page of rules for new stuff at the end of new HH books, everything else should have been made for 8th as not doing so is costing them both money and playerbase...
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut






 Irbis wrote:
 godardc wrote:

30k is as different from 40k as AOS is from WHFB, noone can deny that.

What?

Everyone with eyes sees 30K is mere expansion to 40K, always was, always will be. Only a bunch of die hard elitists (who, between others, diss players using Calth/Prospero models as 'fake' 30Keers) are desperate to "prove" their game is somehow different, so they can then ""prove"" it's better. FW laziness doesn't change that. What FW should have done was releasing Index 30K with trial rules for Legions, then, once the feedback was gathered, released updated Army books. Hell, GW team did 90% of the job for them, they could have just copied stats of SM stuff, come up with missing rules for 30K gear (which would be tiny in number, even Volkite and Contemptors made its way to 40K these days), done. Bunch of diehards wanting rules for ancient, bad system could have been placated with literally 1 page of rules for new stuff at the end of new HH books, everything else should have been made for 8th as not doing so is costing them both money and playerbase...


While I dont fully agree with Godardc, I think you are also missing the mark here. 1) it is not '"elitist" to prefer your setting and rules instead of a "upgrade" to a ruleset you dont like. and 2) the loss of playerbase would happen if they did move to 8th. Those of you who like 8th will still be buying and playing 8th, those of us who think 8th is garbage, will not move, so changing HH to 8th is what will cause us to leave. They have your money anyhow.
   
Made in us
The Last Chancer Who Survived




On moon miranda.

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
 Vaktathi wrote:
 godardc wrote:
It is the complete rulebook of 7th with the faq into a single book.
Interesting, so they appear to be splitting it off now and sticking to 7E, didn't realize that. Not sure why they're sticking to that, it's the first time FW hasn't gotten on board with an edition change like that. It's curious that Corp is allowing that. It's also curious given that 7E 40k was...from a business & market perspective, about as low as GW ever got.


30k is as different from 40k as AOS is from WHFB, noone can deny that.
Because until the 7E/8E split they weren't, they were just different army sets, most of which are variations around the most popular 40k army. Basically they changed up a bit of the army construction rules and made a bajillion Space Marine sub-faction army lists, and that was the big difference, they played at the same scales with the same numbers of models and largely the same rules and often entirely swappable model collections. Until that edition change, there was nowhere near as much difference between 40k and 30k as AoS and 8E Fantasy.

From a Reddit AMA done by James Hewitt, the plan was to go to 8th but with FW currently being low on writing staff after both the formation of the Specialist Studio, The Middle Earth Team and the unfortunate passing of Alan Bligh and the already high stack of work FW has on its plate currently they just didn't have the resources for it. Add to that the fact that the plans that were in the works to convert HH to 8th were that of Mr Bligh, and we are here.

They'll probably eventually get around to doing it, but it won't be any time soon.
ah ok, that makes way more sense, it's a resource issue forcing a lag rather than an intentional decision to split HH off. Wish theyd make use of the community efforts in that regard, but that does shed light on the issue.

IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.

Heavy Gear Painting Log, Northern Guard, Southern Republican Army, and Terrain
The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts.  
   
Made in gb
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain





Norwich

 Vaktathi wrote:
 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
 Vaktathi wrote:
 godardc wrote:
It is the complete rulebook of 7th with the faq into a single book.
Interesting, so they appear to be splitting it off now and sticking to 7E, didn't realize that. Not sure why they're sticking to that, it's the first time FW hasn't gotten on board with an edition change like that. It's curious that Corp is allowing that. It's also curious given that 7E 40k was...from a business & market perspective, about as low as GW ever got.


30k is as different from 40k as AOS is from WHFB, noone can deny that.
Because until the 7E/8E split they weren't, they were just different army sets, most of which are variations around the most popular 40k army. Basically they changed up a bit of the army construction rules and made a bajillion Space Marine sub-faction army lists, and that was the big difference, they played at the same scales with the same numbers of models and largely the same rules and often entirely swappable model collections. Until that edition change, there was nowhere near as much difference between 40k and 30k as AoS and 8E Fantasy.

From a Reddit AMA done by James Hewitt, the plan was to go to 8th but with FW currently being low on writing staff after both the formation of the Specialist Studio, The Middle Earth Team and the unfortunate passing of Alan Bligh and the already high stack of work FW has on its plate currently they just didn't have the resources for it. Add to that the fact that the plans that were in the works to convert HH to 8th were that of Mr Bligh, and we are here.

They'll probably eventually get around to doing it, but it won't be any time soon.
ah ok, that makes way more sense, it's a resource issue forcing a lag rather than an intentional decision to split HH off. Wish theyd make use of the community efforts in that regard, but that does shed light on the issue.
(deleted) wrong person

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/01/02 17:56:14


   
Made in us
Towering Hierophant Bio-Titan






thekingofkings wrote:
 Irbis wrote:
 godardc wrote:

30k is as different from 40k as AOS is from WHFB, noone can deny that.

What?

Everyone with eyes sees 30K is mere expansion to 40K, always was, always will be. Only a bunch of die hard elitists (who, between others, diss players using Calth/Prospero models as 'fake' 30Keers) are desperate to "prove" their game is somehow different, so they can then ""prove"" it's better. FW laziness doesn't change that. What FW should have done was releasing Index 30K with trial rules for Legions, then, once the feedback was gathered, released updated Army books. Hell, GW team did 90% of the job for them, they could have just copied stats of SM stuff, come up with missing rules for 30K gear (which would be tiny in number, even Volkite and Contemptors made its way to 40K these days), done. Bunch of diehards wanting rules for ancient, bad system could have been placated with literally 1 page of rules for new stuff at the end of new HH books, everything else should have been made for 8th as not doing so is costing them both money and playerbase...


While I dont fully agree with Godardc, I think you are also missing the mark here. 1) it is not '"elitist" to prefer your setting and rules instead of a "upgrade" to a ruleset you dont like. and 2) the loss of playerbase would happen if they did move to 8th. Those of you who like 8th will still be buying and playing 8th, those of us who think 8th is garbage, will not move, so changing HH to 8th is what will cause us to leave. They have your money anyhow.


More importantly, is the amount of people who would "leave" because they don't like 8th > the amount of people they would GAIN because they switched to 8th.

Now compare 40ks sales from 7th to 8th. I think if GW has any understanding of even basic math they are wringing their hands and waiting to move 30k to 8th. It's only going to boost sales.

Harsh but true, the loss of the few of you who prefer 7th is meaningless compared to the growth from the influx of 8th.

   
Made in us
Depraved Slaanesh Chaos Lord




Inside Yvraine

 Formosa wrote:
 Vaktathi wrote:
 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
 Vaktathi wrote:
 godardc wrote:
It is the complete rulebook of 7th with the faq into a single book.
Interesting, so they appear to be splitting it off now and sticking to 7E, didn't realize that. Not sure why they're sticking to that, it's the first time FW hasn't gotten on board with an edition change like that. It's curious that Corp is allowing that. It's also curious given that 7E 40k was...from a business & market perspective, about as low as GW ever got.


30k is as different from 40k as AOS is from WHFB, noone can deny that.
Because until the 7E/8E split they weren't, they were just different army sets, most of which are variations around the most popular 40k army. Basically they changed up a bit of the army construction rules and made a bajillion Space Marine sub-faction army lists, and that was the big difference, they played at the same scales with the same numbers of models and largely the same rules and often entirely swappable model collections. Until that edition change, there was nowhere near as much difference between 40k and 30k as AoS and 8E Fantasy.

From a Reddit AMA done by James Hewitt, the plan was to go to 8th but with FW currently being low on writing staff after both the formation of the Specialist Studio, The Middle Earth Team and the unfortunate passing of Alan Bligh and the already high stack of work FW has on its plate currently they just didn't have the resources for it. Add to that the fact that the plans that were in the works to convert HH to 8th were that of Mr Bligh, and we are here.

They'll probably eventually get around to doing it, but it won't be any time soon.
ah ok, that makes way more sense, it's a resource issue forcing a lag rather than an intentional decision to split HH off. Wish theyd make use of the community efforts in that regard, but that does shed light on the issue.
haha you need to learn what comprehension means, sure I should have re read the thread so you can call me forgetful, but it's not lack of comprehension


He says, while quoting the wrong person.

 
   
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 Irbis wrote:
 godardc wrote:

30k is as different from 40k as AOS is from WHFB, noone can deny that.

What?

Everyone with eyes sees 30K is mere expansion to 40K, always was, always will be. Only a bunch of die hard elitists (who, between others, diss players using Calth/Prospero models as 'fake' 30Keers) are desperate to "prove" their game is somehow different, so they can then ""prove"" it's better. FW laziness doesn't change that. What FW should have done was releasing Index 30K with trial rules for Legions, then, once the feedback was gathered, released updated Army books. Hell, GW team did 90% of the job for them, they could have just copied stats of SM stuff, come up with missing rules for 30K gear (which would be tiny in number, even Volkite and Contemptors made its way to 40K these days), done. Bunch of diehards wanting rules for ancient, bad system could have been placated with literally 1 page of rules for new stuff at the end of new HH books, everything else should have been made for 8th as not doing so is costing them both money and playerbase...


That would of course have meant HH would be stick with the crappy dumpster fire of 8th ed with less tactics and less balance than HH has. So far out of all editions related to 40k universum HH is by far most balanced game out there. And 8th ed is joke in terms of balance.

FW not going to 8th ed was best thing ever for HH player's to actually have balanced rules that makes sense.

HH is basically 7th ed with all the problems fixed as anybody who has actually tried it would know it. But of course if you just use 40k codexes in it you don't see it because you aren't then playing 30k but 40k with the broken formations etc. But you know what? HH doesn't have formations so that problem was fixed. Basically everything players complained about 7th HH doesn't have it. But of course if you play it with 40k rules you don't see it.

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I don't understand. If everyone agrees that 7th is a dumbster fire but the HH version of 7th edition is fine... then why they don't assume that, even if they believe 8th is a gak-show, the HH version will be much better, more tactical and balanced?

Now, I'll say. I have no problem with HH sticking to 7th edition. Enough of that bolter-porn fantasy has leaked to proper 40k.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/01/02 14:10:08


 Crimson Devil wrote:

Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.

ERJAK wrote:
Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.

 
   
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 Lance845 wrote:
Kasper Hawser wrote:
I think after all the rage at the Imperial Armour index’s it’s obvious that FW doesn’t have enough people to try to port HH to 8th at the moment. Especially with all the work they are doing on specialist games.
I’d much rather they carried on finishing the legions and then come up with their own rule set. I don’t think I could stomach a smite phase in HH. Also every time GW main changes something in 8th they’re not going to play test how it will effect HH they will only be interested in 40k. So each chapter approved book could potentially cause major headaches for the 30k player base. I can remember a few arguments with people who tried to incorporate Death from the skies into 30k games.


This is more of a reason to collapse FW into regular GW. Or at least the 40k side of it. Stop having 2 studios produce rules for 1 product. 1 studio should be doing it all consistently. HH really is more of a expansion of 7th with a different set of armies then a whole new game. It should be handled by GW.


Yeah collapse the 40k side of it not the 30k. The black books have great writing in them unlike the rubbish GW main writers churn out.
Everyone will have different opinions but FW took what was considered a risk by GW main with the HH and it’s paid off to take it from them would be an insult. I’m glad that GW main helped people out with affordable troops for people wanting to get into the Horus Heresy but that’s as far as it should go. HH started life as an expansion to 40k now it’s become its own individual game which is great in my opinion. Nobody knows how long 8th will last we could e looking at 9th edition in 3-4 years time FW could waste their time porting everything over for it all to change with them being given no notice it happened to them when 6th changed to 7th it’s a shame they didn’t decide to stick with 6th when it happened last time round.
I’m not going to argue which rule set is better I don’t mind 8th edition I’m glad GW has changed their business model other the last couple of years and talks to customers. But I like Horus Heresy the way it is.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/01/02 15:16:12


 
   
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 BlaxicanX wrote:
 Formosa wrote:
 Vaktathi wrote:
 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
 Vaktathi wrote:
 godardc wrote:
It is the complete rulebook of 7th with the faq into a single book.
Interesting, so they appear to be splitting it off now and sticking to 7E, didn't realize that. Not sure why they're sticking to that, it's the first time FW hasn't gotten on board with an edition change like that. It's curious that Corp is allowing that. It's also curious given that 7E 40k was...from a business & market perspective, about as low as GW ever got.


30k is as different from 40k as AOS is from WHFB, noone can deny that.
Because until the 7E/8E split they weren't, they were just different army sets, most of which are variations around the most popular 40k army. Basically they changed up a bit of the army construction rules and made a bajillion Space Marine sub-faction army lists, and that was the big difference, they played at the same scales with the same numbers of models and largely the same rules and often entirely swappable model collections. Until that edition change, there was nowhere near as much difference between 40k and 30k as AoS and 8E Fantasy.

From a Reddit AMA done by James Hewitt, the plan was to go to 8th but with FW currently being low on writing staff after both the formation of the Specialist Studio, The Middle Earth Team and the unfortunate passing of Alan Bligh and the already high stack of work FW has on its plate currently they just didn't have the resources for it. Add to that the fact that the plans that were in the works to convert HH to 8th were that of Mr Bligh, and we are here.

They'll probably eventually get around to doing it, but it won't be any time soon.
ah ok, that makes way more sense, it's a resource issue forcing a lag rather than an intentional decision to split HH off. Wish theyd make use of the community efforts in that regard, but that does shed light on the issue.
haha you need to learn what comprehension means, sure I should have re read the thread so you can call me forgetful, but it's not lack of comprehension


He says, while quoting the wrong person.


Weird, it's was definitely the right person when I posted it, my posts from my phone have been doing odd thinks with dakka recently, like cutting off whole chunks of message or double posting absolutely nothing.

   
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tneva82 wrote:
 Irbis wrote:
 godardc wrote:

30k is as different from 40k as AOS is from WHFB, noone can deny that.

What?

Everyone with eyes sees 30K is mere expansion to 40K, always was, always will be. Only a bunch of die hard elitists (who, between others, diss players using Calth/Prospero models as 'fake' 30Keers) are desperate to "prove" their game is somehow different, so they can then ""prove"" it's better. FW laziness doesn't change that. What FW should have done was releasing Index 30K with trial rules for Legions, then, once the feedback was gathered, released updated Army books. Hell, GW team did 90% of the job for them, they could have just copied stats of SM stuff, come up with missing rules for 30K gear (which would be tiny in number, even Volkite and Contemptors made its way to 40K these days), done. Bunch of diehards wanting rules for ancient, bad system could have been placated with literally 1 page of rules for new stuff at the end of new HH books, everything else should have been made for 8th as not doing so is costing them both money and playerbase...


That would of course have meant HH would be stick with the crappy dumpster fire of 8th ed with less tactics and less balance than HH has. So far out of all editions related to 40k universum HH is by far most balanced game out there. And 8th ed is joke in terms of balance.
While 8E is a joke in terms of balance, and 8E is by no means a perfect ruleset, it's leaps and bounds ahead of 7E, all the way down to the core rules. Vehicles, especially nonskimmer vehicles, actually...function, and are viable next to MC's. Bikes dont have gobs of unnecessary special bonus rules that make infantry superfluous. There's none of the sillyness of the abusive Jink mechanic (wanna look at balance? Compare Jink to Smoke Launchers for a laugh). Psychic powers have dramatically less abusive sillyness and dice rolling associated. There's a lot less sillyness of stuff like D weapons (particularly in smaller platforms). There's a fraction of the random rolling and superfluous charts that exist for the sake of rolling more dice. Spamming multishot S6/7 weaponry isnt a magical cure-all. The missions dont have copy-paste issues like 7E forgetting that Heavy Support units were supposed to be a boon in the Big Guns mission (and FA units in Scouring) rather than just a liability because they forgot they changed how scoring worked in the process. With specific regard to the HH and its overwhelming MEQ paradigm, armor and AP is more meaningful than "do I get my 3+ or not", you dont have to worry about gobs of weapons with AP4/5/6/- having what on paper looks like a meangfully differentiated stat ultimately being pointless minutae.



FW not going to 8th ed was best thing ever for HH player's to actually have balanced rules that makes sense.

HH is basically 7th ed with all the problems fixed as anybody who has actually tried it would know it.
except, of course, all the sillyness with HP's, mission issues, random charts on top of more random charts, etc. Even without the rampant codex issues, 7E had a lot of problems at the core. Want to know whats way easier to work through as an actual play mechanism in 8E? A battery of quad launchers. That can take several minutes in 7E, but takes about 30 seconds in 8E, with far fewer issues, inaccuracies, and potential drama.


But of course if you just use 40k codexes in it you don't see it because you aren't then playing 30k but 40k with the broken formations etc. But you know what? HH doesn't have formations so that problem was fixed. Basically everything players complained about 7th HH doesn't have it. But of course if you play it with 40k rules you don't see it.
Do they still have Hull Points, pointless AP stats, etc?

Nothing im noting is codex or 40k specific, 7E had lots of issues with the core fundamental ruleset. 8E is by no means perfect or even great, but 7E is a micromanaged mess that gets hopelessely and ineffectually lost in its own minutae in the process of attempting to patch the 3E ruleset for the 4th time in 15 years, while attempting to incorporate ever larger scales, and fell flat on its face in the attempt. Codex issues alone did not result in 7E being the least successful edition of 40k. Is the HH stuff *better* than the 40k stuff in terms of balance with regards to 7E? Sure, but the 7E core ruleset was still awful, and HH is no perfect paragon of balance either.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/01/02 18:08:41


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