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Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Leo_the_Rat wrote:
 doctortom wrote:
Yeah, just because it's legal to do it might not mean it's the best way to do it.


If it's the legal way then it's the only way to do it. There are no other avenues or choices. If you're not going to play the legal way then you're not playing the same game that your opponent expects you to be playing.


You are confused as to what I am saying. I said it's legal to use the index, but it might not be optimal. It's also legal to use Daemon Prince of Nurgle in the Codex. That's 2 separate legal choices, which makes your "the only way to do it" comment not exactly helpful here.
   
Made in gb
Excited Doom Diver





 doctortom wrote:
For anybody with an older Daemon Prince model, however, who wants Nurgle and Death Guard keywords and has a warp bolter, then you can go to the index for Daemon Prince like GW tells you to for older models with different items no longer supported in the Codex. If I bought a brand new Autarch it would match up with what's in Craftworlds, but if I have an older model with other stuff like Reaper Launcher, then I would use the Index entry. Citing buying a brand new model is not being reasonable at all when talking about Codex vs Index, since that had been set up for older models.
Actually, that's not quite what GW have said. I've linked the actual flowchart before, which shows how it really works. If a datasheet in an Index has been printed in a Codex, you should use the Codex version of the datasheet. The only exception allowed, RAW, is that if the Index version has wargear options in the Index which are not in the Codex, you can use the Index options for wargear. Choice of <LEGION> is not a wargear choice, therefore it is not allowed to use the Index over the Codex for that. Attempting to do so is breaking the rules, plain and simple.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 BaconCatBug wrote:
Captyn_Bob wrote:
That method does require you to answer 'no' to the question
"Does your model have rules in a codex" knowing full well that there are rules for Nurgle daemon princes in 3 codices.
But if you think that is acceptable, cool. I don't think I could persuade my opponents of that, as much as I'd like to.
My model is called "Daemon Prince" and has the NURGLE and DEATH GUARD keywords.

Where in a codex can I find that model?
Okay, this is a facetious argument, but I'll answer you.

There are no current datasheets available that meet your requirements. None. The datasheet for the model named "Daemon Prince" is in Codex: Chaos Space Marines, but per page 116 of that Codex it is not allowed to have the DEATH GUARD keyword, any more than it is allowed to have the ULTRAMARINE or SAIM-HANN keywords.

If you want a datasheet for a Daemon Prince of the Death Guard, it can be found in Codex: Death Guard. The datasheet name is "Daemon Prince of Nurgle".

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/01/11 23:43:47


 
   
Made in gb
Norn Queen






Aelyn wrote:
Okay, this is a facetious argument, but I'll answer you.

There are no current datasheets available that meet your requirements. None. The datasheet for the model named "Daemon Prince" is in Codex: Chaos Space Marines, but per page 116 of that Codex it is not allowed to have the DEATH GUARD keyword, any more than it is allowed to have the ULTRAMARINE or SAIM-HANN keywords.

If you want a datasheet for a Daemon Prince of the Death Guard, it can be found in Codex: Death Guard. The datasheet name is "Daemon Prince of Nurgle".
I see one in Index: Chaos on page 21
   
Made in gb
Excited Doom Diver





BaconCatBug 748228 9781833dcd32c8b52069016bcd42e33678f1cf0.png wrote:
Aelyn wrote:
Okay, this is a facetious argument, but I'll answer you.

There are no current datasheets available that meet your requirements. None. The datasheet for the model named "Daemon Prince" is in Codex: Chaos Space Marines, but per page 116 of that Codex it is not allowed to have the DEATH GUARD keyword, any more than it is allowed to have the ULTRAMARINE or SAIM-HANN keywords.

If you want a datasheet for a Daemon Prince of the Death Guard, it can be found in Codex: Death Guard. The datasheet name is "Daemon Prince of Nurgle".
I see one in Index: Chaos on page 21
Really? That datasheet doesn't say "Death Guard" on it anywhere. All it says is "<LEGION>", and that datasheet has been printed in Codex: Chaos Space Marines, so we need to use the Codex rules for it. If it had wargear options in the Index that weren't in the Codex, we would have special dispensation to take those, but the dispensation doesn't extend to choice of <LEGION>. And the Codex one can't be Death Guard.

No worries, though. You want a Daemon Prince that has DEATH GUARD and NURGLE? Just take the Daemon Prince of Nurgle datasheet from Codex: Death Guard.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/01/12 11:57:00


 
   
Made in gb
Norn Queen






Aelyn wrote:
BaconCatBug 748228 9781833dcd32c8b52069016bcd42e33678f1cf0.png wrote:
Aelyn wrote:
Okay, this is a facetious argument, but I'll answer you.

There are no current datasheets available that meet your requirements. None. The datasheet for the model named "Daemon Prince" is in Codex: Chaos Space Marines, but per page 116 of that Codex it is not allowed to have the DEATH GUARD keyword, any more than it is allowed to have the ULTRAMARINE or SAIM-HANN keywords.

If you want a datasheet for a Daemon Prince of the Death Guard, it can be found in Codex: Death Guard. The datasheet name is "Daemon Prince of Nurgle".
I see one in Index: Chaos on page 21
Really? That datasheet doesn't say "Death Guard" on it anywhere. All it says is "<LEGION>", and that datasheet has been printed in Codex: Chaos Space Marines, so we need to use the Codex rules for it. If it had wargear options in the Index that weren't in the Codex, we would have special dispensation to take those, but the dispensation doesn't extend to choice of <LEGION>. And the Codex one can't be Death Guard.

No worries, though. You want a Daemon Prince that has DEATH GUARD and NURGLE? Just take the Daemon Prince of Nurgle datasheet from Codex: Death Guard.
Except the datasheet in CSM is explicitly not the same datasheet, because it has different options for <LEGION>

Or are you saying that my Blood Angels have to take the Rhino from Codex: Dark Angels, and thus never have units embark upon it?
   
Made in gb
Excited Doom Diver





 BaconCatBug wrote:
Aelyn wrote:
BaconCatBug 748228 9781833dcd32c8b52069016bcd42e33678f1cf0.png wrote:
Aelyn wrote:
Okay, this is a facetious argument, but I'll answer you.

There are no current datasheets available that meet your requirements. None. The datasheet for the model named "Daemon Prince" is in Codex: Chaos Space Marines, but per page 116 of that Codex it is not allowed to have the DEATH GUARD keyword, any more than it is allowed to have the ULTRAMARINE or SAIM-HANN keywords.

If you want a datasheet for a Daemon Prince of the Death Guard, it can be found in Codex: Death Guard. The datasheet name is "Daemon Prince of Nurgle".
I see one in Index: Chaos on page 21
Really? That datasheet doesn't say "Death Guard" on it anywhere. All it says is "<LEGION>", and that datasheet has been printed in Codex: Chaos Space Marines, so we need to use the Codex rules for it. If it had wargear options in the Index that weren't in the Codex, we would have special dispensation to take those, but the dispensation doesn't extend to choice of <LEGION>. And the Codex one can't be Death Guard.

No worries, though. You want a Daemon Prince that has DEATH GUARD and NURGLE? Just take the Daemon Prince of Nurgle datasheet from Codex: Death Guard.
Except the datasheet in CSM is explicitly not the same datasheet, because it has different options for <LEGION>

Or are you saying that my Blood Angels have to take the Rhino from Codex: Dark Angels, and thus never have units embark upon it?

You've used that argument before, and it's been debunked. Nothing says that a datasheet from one codex must be used in preference go a datasheet from a different codex. The flowchart only applies to using Codex datasheets over Index ones.

Also, you say it's explicitly a different datasheet. Where is that explicit? I will point out that after taking into account the errata, the two datasheets are word-for-word identical.

Finally, one more question - why are you insistent that the Daemon Prince of Nurgle datasheet is inappropriate for the model you're describing?
   
Made in gb
Norn Queen






Aelyn wrote:
Finally, one more question - why are you insistent that the Daemon Prince of Nurgle datasheet is inappropriate for the model you're describing?
For the same reason the Codex Dark Angels Rhino is inappropriate for my Blood Angels Rhino.
   
Made in gb
Excited Doom Diver





 BaconCatBug wrote:
Aelyn wrote:
Finally, one more question - why are you insistent that the Daemon Prince of Nurgle datasheet is inappropriate for the model you're describing?
For the same reason the Codex Dark Angels Rhino is inappropriate for my Blood Angels Rhino.
I honestly don't know what point you're trying to make here. It belongs to a different Chapter / Legion? But you've said yourself it should be Death Guard...
   
Made in im
Beast of Nurgle





I think I can boil it down: given a model, imagine two actions:

1. Choose the value of any <PLACEHOLDER> keywords (by simply filling the blanks)
2. Choose the datasheet rules to use (using the flowchart)

I don't know which order you should do them in. Aelyn suggests 2,1 - BCB 1, 2.
2,1 is intuitive, since the keywords are on the datasheet. You need the datasheet first to know which blanks to fill.
1,2 sort of makes sense to me too, since in reality you're choosing your <LEGION> while you're painting it, well in advance of the model's first game.

Continue with the Blood Angels in the Dark Angels rhinos...
   
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Fresh-Faced New User




So if people say Death Guard can not use the index Daemon Prince because he's updated in the Chaos Space marines Codex, does that mean my Thousand Sons can't have any Daemon Prince?
   
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Seattle, WA

If Aelyn and others' interpretation is correct then yes. Anyone who has bees using a TSons DP since the CSM codex release has been cheating.

That is the kind of silliness that has me thinking that BCB's method must be correct.

edit: No one is arguing that a DG DP would be optimal. The question if it is possible is a fun exercise and potentially opens up new options to a very limited force.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/01/12 15:55:52


 
   
Made in gb
Excited Doom Diver





Antubis wrote:
So if people say Death Guard can not use the index Daemon Prince because he's updated in the Chaos Space marines Codex, does that mean my Thousand Sons can't have any Daemon Prince?
Technically, by RAW, yes.

In those cases, I would say it's clear from context that the issue will be resolved with the release of the appropriate Codex, and therefore would have no issue with those armies taking the datasheets - it's a weird glitch caused by the delay in releasing codexes coupled with the flowchart from GW, and until the Codex is released, some level of houseruling to allow access is only appropriate. Similarly, I think it is within the spirit of the rules to allow the Daemon Prince of Nurgle to take a Warp Bolter, and would have no qualms with an opponent doing that.

However, this forum isn't about houserules or HYWPI - it's about RAW. And yes, by RAW, anyone taking a TSons Daemon Prince during the gap between C: CSM and C: TSons is breaking the rules. Of course, taking a Tzeentchian Daemon Price of Chaos is still absolutely fine.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/01/12 18:40:26


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Aelyn wrote:
Similarly, I think it is within the spirit of the rules to allow the Daemon Prince of Nurgle to take a Warp Bolter, and would have no qualms with an opponent doing that.


Well, either you're treating the Daemon Prince of Nurgle as the same datasheet as Daemon Prince, in which case according to the flowchart you get to use the index upgrades like Warp Bolter. Or, you aren't treating the datasheets as being the same, in which case you can use the index datasheet for Daemon Prince and get the Warp Bolter (and Nurgle and Death Guard keywords) Nothing HIPWI or house rule-ish about it; it has the full backing of the RAW.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/01/12 19:21:53


 
   
Made in us
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Seattle, WA

Why would one conclude that the Daemon Prince of Nurgle is the same datasheet as Daemon Prince in the first place? There seems to be no rules indication to do so.

 
   
Made in us
Oozing Plague Marine Terminator





They certainly are not the same data sheet. Daemon Prince of Nurgle has DR.

As it has been said, feel free to take the Vanilla Daemon Prince from the index, add appropriate keywords, and have a generic daemon prince with bolter and Warptime.

Personally, I just take a second detachment for an alternate Prince and Oblits. A daemon Prince is too expensive to not have any extra buff for the same cost as a Daemon Prince of Nurgle or Daemon Prince of Chaos.
   
 
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