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 Jidmah wrote:

Oh? Name a single one.

I read that wrong. Yes, many have some extra rules. Deff Dread has 'Ere we go and Dread Mob. Most dreadnoughts do NOT have T8 or a 5++.

Gotta love how you flip-flop between "can't compare to index" and "can't compare to codex" every other post. Make up your mind, man.

Umm, I haven't. Not once. I just reread all my comments. Could you point it out, please?

- All of them can have better auras than the deff dreads, for less points.

I disagree that there is much better than +1 to hit and 5++. RG being the exception, but for way more points.

Except for chapter masters, captains, sergeants, Azrael, dark shrouds, ancients...

None of those give +1 to hit and a 5++ other than Azrael and Dark Shroud, which are well over 300 points. Dark Shroud is great, but you can shoot it. You can't shoot characters behind a screen.

So, let it spell me out again.
Build an ork walker army.
Replace every single model with the space marine equivalent.
The army is strictly better.
There is not a single thing the ork dread mob can do, the space marine army won't be able to do at least as good, while costing less and having far superior shooting and survivability.

I see no SM morkanaut equivalent.
I see no SM killa kan equivalent.
I see no SM KFF equivalent.

And all that before even considering stratagems, buffs and chapter tactics.

Oi vey.

So, to conclude your argument - because Arhiman can't take a relic, paying 600 points for three walkers that will never reach combat because they move 6" a turn is perfectly reasonable.

Yea, that's not what I said.

For the same points, I can have a captain and three redemptors with my choice of multi-melta or assault cannon that all hit on re-rolling 2+ (both shooting and combat), 5++/6+++ and wound anything but T8 on 2+ in combat.
I'd love to see what you make up how to make that look worse than 3 deff dreads, a banner nob and a KFF mek.

Do you mean contemptors? And none of them have both 5++/6+++.

I'm sure they're going to do better, but I like that you have to go to contemptors so that you can ignore the problems all the other dreadnoughts have, too. I've stated multiple times they need some points drops, but they're not going to drop scores of points.


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 Blackie wrote:


Again, you have no clue about how orks armies perform

Whatever helps you sleep at night.

 Daedalus81 wrote:


9 CP - if I were rich i'd give it a whirl.

Spoiler:

Are you planning to win at least 1 out of 20 games with this list? I've got bad news for you.

 koooaei wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:


9 CP - if I were rich i'd give it a whirl.

Spoiler:

Are you planning to win at least 1 out of 20 games with this list? I've got bad news for you.

Reece has a similar list (but more walkers) and he wins games with it so I don't know what to tell you.

I have to sign off this thread now, because it's killing my productivity since i'm the only one willing to debate the other side.

Why not try a game in tabletop simulator or vassal? It'll just be easier than praising how awesome something terrible is. If you manage to win vs a casual list that we'd discuss beforehand, i'll send you all my orks, i promise that.

 koooaei wrote:
Why not try a game in tabletop simulator or vassal? It'll just be easier than praising how awesome something terrible is. If you manage to win vs a casual list that we'd discuss beforehand, i'll send you all my orks, i promise that.

Where did I praise it as awesome? I said it had pros and cons, but is not far from other standard dreadnoughts.

That's a lot to gamble.

I thought vassal got taken down?

I'm not sure about vassal, i'm using tabletop simulator. Well, want to try an amazing pros-and cons list vs something like witch cult? If you loose, you can send me a postcard or something, if you want it to be a 2-side gamble =)

 koooaei wrote:
I'm not sure about vassal, i'm using tabletop simulator. Well, want to try an amazing pros-and cons list vs something like witch cult? If you loose, you can send me a postcard or something, if you want it to be a 2-side gamble =)

Whoa wait...TTS can do that? I'm out of date.

As soon as my wife and baby give me time I'd be more than willing to give it a go - no army gamble necessary.

Yeah, tts is pretty cool. It has 3d models, dice and other stuff. Though, it's not free and costs a bit of money but really not much. Can use it to play other games afterwards anywayz.

Damn...they've come a long way...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TtC_vihirG0

I wonder if I could pull this up in my Vive...

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
For Deff Dreads to be viable they need a few things IMO;

1. T8, an invuln, a FNP or 2 of those.
2. A price drop.
3. More flexibility. Allow us to replace all arms so we could have a shooty Dread if we wished.
4. 4+ BS, either inherent or with a "Git Finda" upgrade.
5. If we must take Dread Klaws, they need to be much faster, or have a mechanism that allows them to close distance safely.

You can make a unit as cheap as you like, but if it can't damage anything because it's shooting is awful and it's slow as molasses it's kinda pointless.

Look at the comparison to the 103 pt Wraithlord I did above. It does not make sense that they are so expensive. They will come down in cost and hopefully gain some other ability (extra damage against vehicles/monstrous creatures or something) that gives them a purpose.

#1 will never happen.
#2 is a given.
#3 won't happen since the kit doesn't support it.
#4 Git finda would be awesome
#5 Bringing it up to 8" would make sense to me.

A wraithlord has brackets and is only S7 without the glaive and no guns. It could probably do with a small increase otherwise.

Why won't #1 happen man? Listen - I don't think you're unreasonable and I don't think you're arguments are completely without merit. Forget Reece from FLG, he is an excellent player and he has lost every time he has fielded the Kan Wall publicly. Let's just talk real stuff.

I mentioned the Wraithlord because I think it perfectly highlights how bad the DD is. Yes it has brackets, but it has 2 extra wounds and the last bracket is when it's at 1-2 wounds. The only things that change is it's movement (that drops at 1-2 wounds to the same level as the DD), its WS and its BS. Yea it's S7 but with the glaive it becomes S9, D6 damage and it's STILL cheaper than the DD. Bro it's 103 pts stock, with the glaive it's 113! Lol the DD is minimum 131!! Carnage! The Wraithlord is a more flexible weapon as it can have additional weapons and it doesn't have to replace other weapons. It also has free weapons that do not interfere with taking anything else.

I don't see armies of Wraithlords. It's way, waaaay better than the DD. Hence the DD needs a buff!

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Damn...they've come a long way...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TtC_vihirG0

I wonder if I could pull this up in my Vive...

Well, if you want a game, just let me know via private message on this forum. I might have time this weekend.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

Why won't #1 happen man? Listen - I don't think you're unreasonable and I don't think you're arguments are completely without merit. Forget Reece from FLG, he is an excellent player and he has lost every time he has fielded the Kan Wall publicly.

He damn near tabled Sisters, but it was The Relic and the Sisters player got away. I haven't seen any other games from him aside from the Nurgle one that weren't super old.

I mentioned the Wraithlord because I think it perfectly highlights how bad the DD is. Yes it has brackets, but it has 2 extra wounds and the last bracket is when it's at 1-2 wounds. The only things that change is it's movement (that drops at 1-2 wounds to the same level as the DD), its WS and its BS. Yea it's S7 but with the glaive it becomes S9, D6 damage and it's STILL cheaper than the DD. Bro it's 103 pts stock, with the glaive it's 113! Lol the DD is minimum 131!! Carnage! The Wraithlord is a more flexible weapon as it can have additional weapons and it doesn't have to replace other weapons. It also has free weapons that do not interfere with taking anything else.

I don't see armies of Wraithlords. It's way, waaaay better than the DD. Hence the DD needs a buff!

I don't disagree. The DD is still the same as other stock dreadnoughts. What the wraithlord is to the DD is the same as to other dreads, really. Assuming the impossible - a DD makes it to a WL with 4 wounds left - it does 6.6 damage, brackets it, and the WL does 3.3 - the DD still swings at full strength next round (but obviously the WL would walk away and let someone else shoot it). A doctored scenario for sure and the DD doesn't "earn it's points back", but that isn't the whole goal, really.


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 koooaei wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Damn...they've come a long way...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TtC_vihirG0

I wonder if I could pull this up in my Vive...

Well, if you want a game, just let me know via private message on this forum. I might have time this weekend.

Will do. I'll figure out how to use it first. Probably won't be for a few weeks since the missus has classes and I get stuck with the baby a lot right now.

That's ok, it's life. I'm working overtime.

Boom! Point is proven! You may have beaten me the last two games with that damn dread but you just wait for this weekend, the admech shall not lose again! >:^)

 firechcken23 wrote:
Boom! Point is proven! You may have beaten me the last two games with that damn dread but you just wait for this weekend, the admech shall not lose again! >:^)

Ah, I sense a rivalry. Hah. What did the dread do?

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 firechcken23 wrote:
Boom! Point is proven! You may have beaten me the last two games with that damn dread but you just wait for this weekend, the admech shall not lose again! >:^)

Ah, I sense a rivalry. Hah. What did the dread do?

It has managed to be one of the last on the board multiple times, always taking out my last few models... RIP those last few vanguard.

 firechcken23 wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 firechcken23 wrote:
Boom! Point is proven! You may have beaten me the last two games with that damn dread but you just wait for this weekend, the admech shall not lose again! >:^)

Ah, I sense a rivalry. Hah. What did the dread do?

It has managed to be one of the last on the board multiple times, always taking out my last few models... RIP those last few vanguard.

So you're telling me it wasn't a priority target and stuck around longer than it might otherwise?

Reminds me of the time i won vs riptide wing with tetras running 2*10 possessed and a bunch of cultists back in 6 edition. Doesn't make possessed great.

A deff dread with 4 klaws is 149 points. You get no shooting but 6 attacks at WS3+ S10 AP-3 3 damage. An average of 4 hits.

3 killa kanz with big shootas cost 171 points. For +22 points you get the same damage output in melee since they have 4 attacks each at WS5+. An average of 4 hits like the dread. S8 AP-3 and 3 damage is quite close to the damage output of a dread, but having 12 attacks instead of 6 means that you can have luck and lots of hits and a better benefit from the banner than the dread. The banner in fact grants +1A to the dread and +2 to the kanz on average.

But you also get 18 S5 shots at BS4+, 3 60mm bases instead of one which can be helpful to block the way to enemy units, and a grand total of 15 wounds at T5 instead of 8 at T7, same save. Which means they're way more durable. With an high and a low-average result on 2 D6 damage hits that go through you may lose the entire dread (with a 4-4+ or a 3-5+ or a 2-6) but with the same rolls you may lose a single kan, you just need to have a result of 3-4 or lower on the first roll which I don't believe the opponent will re-roll using a CP.

Same for damage 3 weapons, three hits that go through kill a dread, but only a single kan. They are more vulnerable to S5-6 weapons of course but if the opponent targets the kanz with his anti infantry tools rather than the boyz it's even better

Kanz don't have 'ere we go but it's unlikely that dreads manage to charge something valuable anyway but with a few points more they can also do something in the shooting phase. There's no possible scenario in which the dread is better than a squad of kanz.

I see threads like this and go "Man, I really need to tell these guys how good that unit can be". But really, it's tough to talk about how the deff dread is good. The moment your bring one you need twelve, it becomes an attrition list comparable to boyz at a different saturation level and model count that will gaurantee you get tabled before you run out of time, unlike boyz. With a Deff Dread you are in a tricky saturation niche, one D6 anti tank isn't enough shooting and two D6 anti tank can force overkill inefficiency on your opponent. You can't bring a larger walker because then it will catch all the anti tank efficiently and the dread will get speed bumps. And you can't bring kanz with the deff dread because then it's too easy to punk the deff dread because Kanz are t5 and will catch everything that isn't shot at the dread efficiently.

The Deff Dread has a small footprint compared to other orkz, and many of them can fit in one KFF, they have no morale problems, and at W8 it takes at least two anti tank weapons to destroy them. There, soo good Deff Dreads, can't wait until they get a points drop and will need twenty dreadz to use them proppa.

If it’s friendly play. Just ask your friends if you can give it a +1 to toughness. Or a better save. Or something. Anything to make it not suck so bad. Just as a home rule

What if they brought back some of the old, funny wargear from 3rd edition and gave access to the Deff Dread? Red paint job for +1 movement, armor plates for a 6++, grot riggers to have a hull point regenerate on a 5+ every turn.

 koooaei wrote:
Deff dreads could be usable if you homerule them to cost at least 2 times lower than they currently do.

I think this could be said for most ork armor/vehicles. I'll never understand why they are so expensive point wise. Most are very fragile & have terrible ballistic skill. Lorewise they should be the cheapest vehicles out there. They are basically scrap welded together from junk & it works because they "believe" it does.

 cuda1179 wrote:
What if they brought back some of the old, funny wargear from 3rd edition and gave access to the Deff Dread? Red paint job for +1 movement, armor plates for a 6++, grot riggers to have a hull point regenerate on a 5+ every turn.

All of that would help actually. Best idea for fixing them so far, just add some upgrades to make them worth those ~150 points. I certainly would prefer that over needing to buy another six.

 Commissar Benny wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
Deff dreads could be usable if you homerule them to cost at least 2 times lower than they currently do.

I think this could be said for most ork armor/vehicles. I'll never understand why they are so expensive point wise. Most are very fragile & have terrible ballistic skill. Lorewise they should be the cheapest vehicles out there. They are basically scrap welded together from junk & it works because they "believe" it does.

Then they should make those vehicles to cost no more than 20€. Right now is expensive enough to build an ork army that isn't based in buying 200 second hand boyz on Ebay. The moment you try to add some vehicles, walkers, etc... to you ork army the money price skyrockets.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

So, should i plan on the game this weekend?

Deff Dreadz should have Deff Guns !!



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 Commissar Benny wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
Deff dreads could be usable if you homerule them to cost at least 2 times lower than they currently do.

I think this could be said for most ork armor/vehicles. I'll never understand why they are so expensive point wise. Most are very fragile & have terrible ballistic skill. Lorewise they should be the cheapest vehicles out there. They are basically scrap welded together from junk & it works because they "believe" it does.

I suspect it is so that when the codex drop0s it can feature massive point drops and almost no rules changes, and people will still want to use it over the index it because of the point reductions and strategems.

Not great but that hasn't dimished my love for them.

If you compare a 4-armed Deff Dread to a Space Wolf Venerable Dread with Frost Axe and Shield, you'll see just how bad the Deff Dread is.

Dread gets 1 more attack than the SW Venerable, and can reroll failed charges.

The SW Venerable has D6 dmg instead of 3, +1 to hit, a 3++ invulnerable save, a 6++ FNP and a one-use Smoke Launcher.

The SW Venerable is 4 points cheaper.

I rest my case.

The SW dread also has a 2pt ranged weapon that does the same damage as the 12 points double big shoota, lol