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 Backspacehacker wrote:
Personally I think to balance CP they need to make all strats cost 1 point, and cap strats at 8 points and make it so you can only ever have one relic/trait that allows you to recover CP on your stratagem use or your opanants. Right now for guard for example it's extremely easy for them to no only bank a bunch of CP but also generate more.

For example, guwrd have a trait(or relic can't remember) that let's them role a dice for each CP spent where T sons only get to use it per stratagem that your opponent uses. So strats are not equal nor our the relics/traits that deal with CP equal.

It's a Warlord Trait(Grand Strategist) and you roll a single dice for each Command Point spent by the Guard player when using Stratagems. On a 5+ that Command Point is immediately refunded.

It also is only applicable while the Warlord is:
a) On the table
b) Alive

I love these threads and how guard gets called OP despite being a middle of the pack army that's only really "competitive" when being used as disposable shields for another army or cheap CP generation.

The solution is beyond simple, just make CP only be able to be used by the faction that actually generates them. At this point, I'm so tired of the crying I wish they would just ban soup in matched play

For a pure IG army, Ive yet to see the CP generation be a real issue, mostly because of the limitation on reuses of stratagems in a turn and the relative weeniness of most IG units individually. As a result, those IG armies that can generate 20+ CP in a game end up spending no more than most other armies or end up using strategems on much weaker units. The last time I ran a CP spam army list, I think I used 9 CP's out of the 20 I had available to use over the course of the game, the rest just never had a reason to be used.

The issue is when paired with other armies, that can use the IG CP generation to use very powerful stratagems more often/easier than they were intended, and do so on units that often derive much more benefit from such.

Option number 1 is silly since we might chose to include tax units in order to get CPs or we can give up some CP to avoid lackluster units.

The real point about balance is that armies index should play against other index, even if the faction they face already has a codex. Because is not fair that some armies have detachment bonuses, relics and stratagems and the index armies only have one relic and one stratagem from Chapter Approved. But no one is willing to play with the index when the codex is available

Asmodios wrote:
I love these threads and how guard gets called OP despite being a middle of the pack army that's only really "competitive" when being used as disposable shields for another army or cheap CP generation.

The solution is beyond simple, just make CP only be able to be used by the faction that actually generates them. At this point, I'm so tired of the crying I wish they would just ban soup in matched play

holy crap dude - they are the best army in the game. Look a little farther than tournment results. Tournaments a not designed to be balancing expeditions - they aren't even playing the real game we play every day...where mostly we are playing maelstrom or eternal war and most of the time the winner is going to be decided by a tabling in 5-6 turns. 2 1/2 hour game with slow playing is not actually the competitive game - real competitive play involves playing the game to conclusion.

I agree that soup should be banned in match play though - also about detachments and CP. Don't make yourself look silly by calling IG middle of the pack though.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Asmodios wrote:
I love these threads and how guard gets called OP despite being a middle of the pack army that's only really "competitive" when being used as disposable shields for another army or cheap CP generation.

The solution is beyond simple, just make CP only be able to be used by the faction that actually generates them. At this point, I'm so tired of the crying I wish they would just ban soup in matched play

holy crap dude - they are the best army in the game. Look a little farther than tournment results. Tournaments a not designed to be balancing expeditions - they aren't even playing the real game we play every day...where mostly we are playing maelstrom or eternal war and most of the time the winner is going to be decided by a tabling in 5-6 turns. 2 1/2 hour game with slow playing is not actually the competitive game - real competitive play involves playing the game to conclusion.

I agree that soup should be banned in match play though - also about detachments and CP. Don't make yourself look silly by calling IG middle of the pack though.

"trust me guard are broken just ignore all-tournament result for months"

I will just apply this logic to everything from now on

>The Browns are the best team in football just ignore W-L in games the real play takes place on the practice field and they are amazing
>Tyranid hive tyrants are terrible just ignore recent tournaments
>All of the cooks on the food network are terrible that's not how really cooking in a real kitchen takes place
>ect ect ect

Thanks for proving my point of how ridiculous the guard hate is on Dakka and how crazy the explanations are

I could not tell you if there's a balance issue with Stratagems.

I do know elite armies are having a hard time of it with 8th edition, and armies that can take endless hordes of chaff get more command points because they can put up more formations.

It would be interesting if Command Points were tied to the type of unit you are taking in addition to detachments. For example: if I took a unit of Grey Knight Paladins, maybe they come with a CP or two. That might make up for their ungodly cost.

Tournaments are what people have data for. We dont have pickup game data, it just doesnt exist, anecdotally people can make any argument, but broadly the complaints about IG have dropped off strongly and sharply in recent months, while stuff like the "totally broken and should be 200pt" Manticore are increasingly less popular next to existing alternatives looking at both tournament lists and the Dakka army list subforum.

Asmodios wrote:


I will just apply this logic to everything from now on

>The Browns are the best team in football just ignore W-L in games the real play takes place on the practice field and they are amazing
>Tyranid hive tyrants are terrible just ignore recent tournaments
>All of the cooks on the food network are terrible that's not how really cooking in a real kitchen takes place
>ect ect ect

Thanks for proving my point of how ridiculous the guard hate is on Dakka and how crazy the explanations are

Again, it's a fallacy that something isn't overpowered, just because it doesn't actually win the tournaments. An army can consistently be at the bottom tables only of big tournaments, and still be seriously overpowered to 90% of the 40K lists out there.

Just looking at tournaments is a far too tiny, far to heavily skewed sample to even remotely judge if something's unbalanced or not.

In fact if something is truly balanced, i.e. roughly in the middle, powerwise, of all mathematically possible combinations of how you can build a list in 40K, it'll probably be nowhere near a tournament, where all players look for units/armies/synergies above the power curve, even if that combination only places 1000 out of 1000 in the sub-sample of tournament 40K.







Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Vaktathi wrote:
Tournaments are what people have data for. We dont have pickup game data, it just doesnt exist, anecdotally people can make any argument, but broadly the complaints about IG have dropped off strongly and sharply in recent months, while stuff like the "totally broken and should be 200pt" Manticore are increasingly less popular next to existing alternatives looking at both tournament lists and the Dakka army list subforum.

Just because you only have data for that, doesn't mean its meaningful data. If you need the proper data, it needs to be collected.

If you only had data on the exercise habits of Olympic Athletes, that data would still be useless to make judgments about good/bad/typical exercise habits of the entire population. Just because it's the only data doesn't magically make it useful data.

As a Necron player, I'm finding the ability of other armies to gain CP back while we can't vey frustrating!

Blndmage wrote:
As a Necron player, I'm finding the ability of other armies to gain CP back while we can't vey frustrating!

Uh Sautekh, dude. Stuck to a sub faction like the Ultramarines but it IS there.

The idea of command points is fine. Some codexes have much better stratagems than others but it does help make each one more flavourful and less carbon copy of the others. The only problem I have seen is when armies are able to get more and more CP back. I do think that each army should be capped at their initial value so you can get them back just not get more than you started with.

Where's Farseer_V2? He's quite capable of elucidating why tournaments are the only data points we have regarding balance.

I know it because I've argued against him.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Blndmage wrote:
As a Necron player, I'm finding the ability of other armies to gain CP back while we can't vey frustrating!

Uh Sautekh, dude. Stuck to a sub faction like the Ultramarines but it IS there.

Right, as a Novokh CC based force, that helps.
It super frustrating how something so important is locked behind one faction.

I feel like each faction should have a CP regain trigger, like for Novokh, it could be when you defeat a unit in the Fight phase, gain D3 CP, D6 if the unit had 10+ wounds.

Blndmage wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Blndmage wrote:
As a Necron player, I'm finding the ability of other armies to gain CP back while we can't vey frustrating!

Uh Sautekh, dude. Stuck to a sub faction like the Ultramarines but it IS there.

Right, as a Novokh CC based force, that helps.
It super frustrating how something so important is locked behind one faction.

I feel like each faction should have a CP regain trigger, like for Novokh, it could be when you defeat a unit in the Fight phase, gain D3 CP, D6 if the unit had 10+ wounds.

My favorite part of Warhammer are the people who think strengths and weaknesses of various factions should all be obviated because they don't have something.

Like Space Marine players who want Predators to be better than Russes. Factions have strengths and weaknesses. That's part of what makes the game fun. Either learn to play around yours or choose a different faction.

Not all factions have strengths and weaknesses. GKs only have weaknesses and mediocrity.

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
Not all factions have strengths and weaknesses. GKs only have weaknesses and mediocrity.

Actually they're fairly strong against Daemons. That automatic max-damage smite plus re-rolling to hit and to wound are bonkers.

I just stared Slaanesh Daemons and brought the 666 point Lord of War that gets a 2+ invuln in the fight phase for 2CP. She died in a single turn to 500 pts of GK.

There's a Daemon strategem that puts any unit killed by a GK unit back into play so uh....?

Lanlaorn wrote:
There's a Daemon strategem that puts any unit killed by a GK unit back into play so uh....?

Yes, for 2 CP, and it can't be a named Daemon. We'll see how well a 7-9CP daemon army does when it can get back exactly 3-4 units, if it's not spending CP on anything else, against an entire army that can do 3mw per turn per unit against it reliably and gets re-rolls to-hit-and-to-wound against them in every phase.

The 2CP stratagem is probably the only thing keeping the Daemon player from flipping the table, lol.

Asmodios wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Asmodios wrote:
I love these threads and how guard gets called OP despite being a middle of the pack army that's only really "competitive" when being used as disposable shields for another army or cheap CP generation.

The solution is beyond simple, just make CP only be able to be used by the faction that actually generates them. At this point, I'm so tired of the crying I wish they would just ban soup in matched play

holy crap dude - they are the best army in the game. Look a little farther than tournment results. Tournaments a not designed to be balancing expeditions - they aren't even playing the real game we play every day...where mostly we are playing maelstrom or eternal war and most of the time the winner is going to be decided by a tabling in 5-6 turns. 2 1/2 hour game with slow playing is not actually the competitive game - real competitive play involves playing the game to conclusion.

I agree that soup should be banned in match play though - also about detachments and CP. Don't make yourself look silly by calling IG middle of the pack though.

"trust me guard are broken just ignore all-tournament result for months"

I will just apply this logic to everything from now on

>The Browns are the best team in football just ignore W-L in games the real play takes place on the practice field and they are amazing
>Tyranid hive tyrants are terrible just ignore recent tournaments
>All of the cooks on the food network are terrible that's not how really cooking in a real kitchen takes place
>ect ect ect

Thanks for proving my point of how ridiculous the guard hate is on Dakka and how crazy the explanations are

Ignore my actual argument and talk about a bunch of unrelated stuff - sure.

Let me ask you a question. What % of tournament games go beyond turn 4? Would you be surprised to know it is less than 50% at most of these big events due to time limits???? How many NFL games would have a different outcome if they just called the game in the 3rd quarter? Also have you ever heard of slow playing? Your opponent can literally cheat you out of a turn if he knows he can't win in the next turn. Tournaments in their current state are a huge joke - just playing a different house rules version of the game with a 2 1/2 hour time limit. Maybe once we get chess clocks going at these events and games start to finish more this data will matter. Currently - it doesn't.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Lanlaorn wrote:
There's a Daemon strategem that puts any unit killed by a GK unit back into play so uh....?

Yes, for 2 CP, and it can't be a named Daemon. We'll see how well a 7-9CP daemon army does when it can get back exactly 3-4 units, if it's not spending CP on anything else, against an entire army that can do 3mw per turn per unit against it reliably and gets re-rolls to-hit-and-to-wound against them in every phase.

The 2CP stratagem is probably the only thing keeping the Daemon player from flipping the table, lol.

It is - I was scared at first about the bring back stratagem but after tabling most daemon armies I face in 3 turns - I figured out it really is still advantage GK.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Blndmage wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Blndmage wrote:
As a Necron player, I'm finding the ability of other armies to gain CP back while we can't vey frustrating!

Uh Sautekh, dude. Stuck to a sub faction like the Ultramarines but it IS there.

Right, as a Novokh CC based force, that helps.
It super frustrating how something so important is locked behind one faction.

I feel like each faction should have a CP regain trigger, like for Novokh, it could be when you defeat a unit in the Fight phase, gain D3 CP, D6 if the unit had 10+ wounds.

My favorite part of Warhammer are the people who think strengths and weaknesses of various factions should all be obviated because they don't have something.

Like Space Marine players who want Predators to be better than Russes. Factions have strengths and weaknesses. That's part of what makes the game fun. Either learn to play around yours or choose a different faction.

Thats more of an issue about AM infantry and tanks being better than marines. If marines had great infantry and guard had great tanks - you wouldn't see these complaints as much. It is pretty stupid how much better a russ is than a pred though. You have to admit.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Lanlaorn wrote:
There's a Daemon strategem that puts any unit killed by a GK unit back into play so uh....?

Yes, for 2 CP, and it can't be a named Daemon. We'll see how well a 7-9CP daemon army does when it can get back exactly 3-4 units, if it's not spending CP on anything else, against an entire army that can do 3mw per turn per unit against it reliably and gets re-rolls to-hit-and-to-wound against them in every phase.

The 2CP stratagem is probably the only thing keeping the Daemon player from flipping the table, lol.

It's funny that you think Daemon players have enough CP left after deep striking half their army to use the GK stratagem.

Sunny Side Up wrote:



Just because you only have data for that, doesn't mean its meaningful data. If you need the proper data, it needs to be collected.

If you only had data on the exercise habits of Olympic Athletes, that data would still be useless to make judgments about good/bad/typical exercise habits of the entire population. Just because it's the only data doesn't magically make it useful data.

I don't debate any of that. However, that doesnt change the fact that its the only hard data we have available, and that we have no data to to really support the other conclusion. The gap between tournament 40k and pickup 40k, while obviously existent, also isnt the same thing as comparing your average joe to an Olympian.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Blndmage wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Blndmage wrote:
As a Necron player, I'm finding the ability of other armies to gain CP back while we can't vey frustrating!

Uh Sautekh, dude. Stuck to a sub faction like the Ultramarines but it IS there.

Right, as a Novokh CC based force, that helps.
It super frustrating how something so important is locked behind one faction.

I feel like each faction should have a CP regain trigger, like for Novokh, it could be when you defeat a unit in the Fight phase, gain D3 CP, D6 if the unit had 10+ wounds.

My favorite part of Warhammer are the people who think strengths and weaknesses of various factions should all be obviated because they don't have something.

Like Space Marine players who want Predators to be better than Russes. Factions have strengths and weaknesses. That's part of what makes the game fun. Either learn to play around yours or choose a different faction.

Nobody said they wanted to make Predators better than Russes. They just wanted them better. Stop making stuff up.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
Not all factions have strengths and weaknesses. GKs only have weaknesses and mediocrity.

Actually they're fairly strong against Daemons. That automatic max-damage smite plus re-rolling to hit and to wound are bonkers.

I just stared Slaanesh Daemons and brought the 666 point Lord of War that gets a 2+ invuln in the fight phase for 2CP. She died in a single turn to 500 pts of GK.

You mean one of the Daemon LoW that has a fluffy point cost and isn't good?

I'd buy your argument if you didn't go straight for a comparison like that.

I think the logic flaw in the way CPs are implemented is that, in theory, cheaper models that generate CP easily are also less valuable to spend CP on. The problem is just that its trivial to take 1 or 2 things that are substantially valuable and funny all your CP into them.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Asmodios wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Asmodios wrote:
I love these threads and how guard gets called OP despite being a middle of the pack army that's only really "competitive" when being used as disposable shields for another army or cheap CP generation.

The solution is beyond simple, just make CP only be able to be used by the faction that actually generates them. At this point, I'm so tired of the crying I wish they would just ban soup in matched play

holy crap dude - they are the best army in the game. Look a little farther than tournment results. Tournaments a not designed to be balancing expeditions - they aren't even playing the real game we play every day...where mostly we are playing maelstrom or eternal war and most of the time the winner is going to be decided by a tabling in 5-6 turns. 2 1/2 hour game with slow playing is not actually the competitive game - real competitive play involves playing the game to conclusion.

I agree that soup should be banned in match play though - also about detachments and CP. Don't make yourself look silly by calling IG middle of the pack though.

"trust me guard are broken just ignore all-tournament result for months"

I will just apply this logic to everything from now on

>The Browns are the best team in football just ignore W-L in games the real play takes place on the practice field and they are amazing
>Tyranid hive tyrants are terrible just ignore recent tournaments
>All of the cooks on the food network are terrible that's not how really cooking in a real kitchen takes place
>ect ect ect

Thanks for proving my point of how ridiculous the guard hate is on Dakka and how crazy the explanations are

Ignore my actual argument and talk about a bunch of unrelated stuff - sure.

Let me ask you a question. What % of tournament games go beyond turn 4? Would you be surprised to know it is less than 50% at most of these big events due to time limits???? How many NFL games would have a different outcome if they just called the game in the 3rd quarter? Also have you ever heard of slow playing? Your opponent can literally cheat you out of a turn if he knows he can't win in the next turn. Tournaments in their current state are a huge joke - just playing a different house rules version of the game with a 2 1/2 hour time limit. Maybe once we get chess clocks going at these events and games start to finish more this data will matter. Currently - it doesn't.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Lanlaorn wrote:
There's a Daemon strategem that puts any unit killed by a GK unit back into play so uh....?

Yes, for 2 CP, and it can't be a named Daemon. We'll see how well a 7-9CP daemon army does when it can get back exactly 3-4 units, if it's not spending CP on anything else, against an entire army that can do 3mw per turn per unit against it reliably and gets re-rolls to-hit-and-to-wound against them in every phase.

The 2CP stratagem is probably the only thing keeping the Daemon player from flipping the table, lol.

It is - I was scared at first about the bring back stratagem but after tabling most daemon armies I face in 3 turns - I figured out it really is still advantage GK.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Blndmage wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Blndmage wrote:
As a Necron player, I'm finding the ability of other armies to gain CP back while we can't vey frustrating!

Uh Sautekh, dude. Stuck to a sub faction like the Ultramarines but it IS there.

Right, as a Novokh CC based force, that helps.
It super frustrating how something so important is locked behind one faction.

I feel like each faction should have a CP regain trigger, like for Novokh, it could be when you defeat a unit in the Fight phase, gain D3 CP, D6 if the unit had 10+ wounds.

My favorite part of Warhammer are the people who think strengths and weaknesses of various factions should all be obviated because they don't have something.

Like Space Marine players who want Predators to be better than Russes. Factions have strengths and weaknesses. That's part of what makes the game fun. Either learn to play around yours or choose a different faction.

Thats more of an issue about AM infantry and tanks being better than marines. If marines had great infantry and guard had great tanks - you wouldn't see these complaints as much. It is pretty stupid how much better a russ is than a pred though. You have to admit.

No i "ignored" your point because it was as terrible as the examples I listed.
1st.... slow play generally helps codexes like guard because you are a gun line and a screen. The gun line is effective from turn 1 and get less affected as A. its screen dies B. It dies as the game goes on. So the shorter the game the stronger you typically are because you have to have good early game shooting to win.
2nd..... Your general point is idiotic. "hey guys lets ignore the data from the top players around the world bringing the absolute hardest lists possible for large cash prizes because at my local FLG the guard player i know keeps beating me"
There is absolutely 0 data that indicates that guard are somehow OP in everything except tournaments. The best players in the world don't bring guard yet I'm supposed to think that they are broken because random dude X cant beat random dude Y at friday night game night and came to Dakka to try to nerf guard again.

Okay man - I can see there is no convincing you otherwise so I will just agree to disagree. You can continue to think that games that don't finish and use house rules are providing useful data on the balance of this game. AM are totally middle of the pack also.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Okay man - I can see there is no convincing you otherwise so I will just agree to disagree. You can continue to think that games that don't finish and use house rules are providing useful data on the balance of this game. AM are totally middle of the pack also.

Yeah sorry, I'm not going to accept your anecdotal evidence that "guard are OP because people keep telling me they win their local game nights. But completely ignore actual statistical evidence from tournaments". I'm always 100% open to changing my mind if people present good arguments but yours is just terrible and spitting in the face of actual evidence while presenting no evidence of your own.

So, of the top 16 lists from Adepticon 2018, 2 of the were Guard lists, and another 2 (including the top list) had healthy Guard components. Guard were better represented in the top 16 than Eldar or most of the Space Marine chapters - Dark Angels did about as well with 3 lists where they were primary, but no lists where they were secondary. Chaos only did better if taken as a whole, and the only army that unarguably was better represented was Tyranids - and one of those Nid lists was one of the ones that had a Guard component.

Asmodios wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Okay man - I can see there is no convincing you otherwise so I will just agree to disagree. You can continue to think that games that don't finish and use house rules are providing useful data on the balance of this game. AM are totally middle of the pack also.

Yeah sorry, I'm not going to accept your anecdotal evidence that "guard are OP because people keep telling me they win their local game nights. But completely ignore actual statistical evidence from tournaments". I'm always 100% open to changing my mind if people present good arguments but yours is just terrible and spitting in the face of actual evidence while presenting no evidence of your own.

Nothing I'm talking about is an ancedote - tournament games don't finish anymore than they do. It's a fact. There's not some kind of qualifier you have to get through to win the right to play in these tournaments - the players are just regular guys playing the game in a very different way than it plays at your local shop which doesn't have a time limit. There is a much simpler way to balance the game - it's called math. This game is entirely math based.

 Grand.Master.Raziel wrote:
So, of the top 16 lists from Adepticon 2018, 2 of the were Guard lists, and another 2 (including the top list) had healthy Guard components. Guard were better represented in the top 16 than Eldar or most of the Space Marine chapters - Dark Angels did about as well with 3 lists where they were primary, but no lists where they were secondary. Chaos only did better if taken as a whole, and the only army that unarguably was better represented was Tyranids - and one of those Nid lists was one of the ones that had a Guard component.

Yeah once again nobody is arguing that guard combined with other stuff is strong. Just like if you lump chaos all together they had more lists. But "guard" get called out as broken while constantly ignoring that is something+guard that does well. So yeah 2 guard lists made top 16 (I'm not even sure if they were pure guard but let's just say they were because I don't remember) that's not broken. Like you said Chaos 4, tyrnids 5, other imperium including either minority guard or no guard 4 and eldar 1. Yeah, I don't see where Guard is an issue there especially considering how Imperium is always the largest amount of armies taken and guard are popular. Like I said previously simply take away the ability to have a sub-faction generate CP for the rest of the army and guard is fine, heck just remove soup altogether because factions that can soup with others will always be impossible to balance.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Asmodios wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Okay man - I can see there is no convincing you otherwise so I will just agree to disagree. You can continue to think that games that don't finish and use house rules are providing useful data on the balance of this game. AM are totally middle of the pack also.

Yeah sorry, I'm not going to accept your anecdotal evidence that "guard are OP because people keep telling me they win their local game nights. But completely ignore actual statistical evidence from tournaments". I'm always 100% open to changing my mind if people present good arguments but yours is just terrible and spitting in the face of actual evidence while presenting no evidence of your own.

Nothing I'm talking about is an ancedote - tournament games don't finish anymore than they do. It's a fact. There's not some kind of qualifier you have to get through to win the right to play in these tournaments - the players are just regular guys playing the game in a very different way than it plays at your local shop which doesn't have a time limit. There is a much simpler way to balance the game - it's called math. This game is entirely math based.

>wants to disregard tournament data because (its not representing true warhammer)
>presents no data from "real warhammer"
>continues to say Data supports what you're saying
yeah sorry, you can't just claim that "data and numbers" back you up when you are showing nothing. Nothing proves a game-ending earlier hurts guard (id actually argue the opposite). No actual data about Guard win-loss rate outside of tournaments with any statistically significant data