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 techsoldaten wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Teschio wrote:
Did they really need to nerf tide of traitors? Chaos is not the best army out there (especially now that you can't spam obliterators or PBCs anymore), it already took a hit with nerfing soup lists, I really think this nerf was unnecessary.

It was necessary considering immutable morale with Abaddon and two massive blocks of them would be unshiftable by almost any list.

I can confirm how OP this is. Have been winning a lot of games by using ToT in turn 4 to just walk onto objectives. When they are near Abaddon, there's nothing anyone can do.

A friend of mine, frequent opponent, uses 9 vertus preators + captain on jetbike. They easily kill 2 40-men units a turn (with a lot to spare too). "Nothing anyone can do" just means you haven't faced hard counters (which are more than you think). Also, remember your cultists enter from a table edge, often that's enough to prevent them from getting to objectives (and if your opponent allows you to do that, even when he knows about that stratagem, it's his fault, honestly). You also need to re-enter within 12" of Abbadon or you're toast. Is tide of traitors a good stratagem? Sure, it's excellent. But since nerfing obliterators and PBCs was already a huge hit for Chaos lists, and Chaos isn't the strongest army out there to begin with, was nerfing it really a good idea?

A.T. wrote:
Well as a sisters player it's shot my ride-sharing dominions in the face and... that's about it really.

The trouble with balancing stuff based on tournament results is that there is a whole lot of stuff that people simply don't take to tournaments.

I'd have thought that part of balancing vs tournament lists would be going "oh, no-one ever uses these units...Maybe we should make them want to take these units?" so that they sell more of the models, and players have more useful variety.

Shinning spears not touched. LOL. How about those tournament results - they were supposedly analyzing?

Warlocks increased in price by 20 points - it was literally already the worst unit in the codex and they pushed it up 20 points LOL.

Command point generators got even stronger - no mention about CP's being limited to their host detachment (pretty much the going consensus about what should be done with everyone I've talked to about it.)

Guilliman up another 15 points? (wont affect anyone because Ultra marines are already on everyone shelves - this just goes to show you how feting disconnected this balance team is with reality)

All the bad units in the game are still bad. Only 3 OP units got nerfed. None of these rules add balance to the game in any way. Complete fail Faq.

Could literally have done a better job just by burping the 3 first things out of my mind than this bumbled mess of gak.

 mrhappyface wrote:

And I suppose World Eaters aren't melee specialists?

Also, it doesn't make transports more viable it just makes deepstrike less viable.

I don't necessarily disagree with that sentiment, but it's what might be needed to get people using them more.

In fact, without deepstriking units to distract your opponent turn 1, transports have become even worse as they're more likely to be targeted and leave the occupants foot slogging.

Those anti-tank weapons weren't likely shooting the deepstrikers anyway.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Shinning spears not touched. LOL. How about those tournament results - they were supposedly analyzing?

Warlocks increased in price by 20 points - it was literally already the worst unit in the codex and they pushed it up 20 points LOL.

Command point generators got even stronger - no mention about CP's being limited to their host detachment (pretty much the going consensus about what should be done with everyone I've talked to about it.)

Guilliman up another 15 points? (wont affect anyone because Ultra marines are already on everyone shelves - this just goes to show you how feting disconnected this balance team is with reality)

All the bad units in the game are still bad. Only 3 OP units got nerfed. None of these rules add balance to the game in any way. Complete fail Faq.

Could literally have done a better job just by burping the 3 most things out of my mind than this bumbled mess of gak.

SS can't DS and Quicken now. Their support is now more expensive.

pismakron wrote:

 grouchoben wrote:
Wow, assault lists are taking an absolute kicking, for no good reason that I can see. Why?

Only deepstriking assault lists really. Transport based and running lists are still here.

Transport based melee lists where never 'here' in this edition.
Running.. only very few units can do that with the help of some very special stratagems or psi powers. And that usually leaves them alone in theior charge, they typically require assistance from deepstrike.

Too bad they didn't nerf Shining Spears.

They could have done something to make Ynnari worse, that'd help.

Or maybe make it so they can't DS then Quicken?

Or maybe require that, if they DS on turn 1, perhaps they can only do so in their deployment zone?

Or maybe bump the points of the pyskers that buff them?

Hopefully, next set of nerfs will do one of those...

I am usually a pretty well-balanced, happy guy. It's usually all good, but usually I need to let out my anger, or else it bottles up. So I'm glad this thread exists. I play three different armies, and boy did this FAQ come as a blow. I mean, cutting down on smite spam, deep strike spam, soup spam, and unit spam! I mean, I play three different armies (CSM, DG, and Nids) and these changes don't effect me at all! I mean, how am I supposed to get my salt out when there are such reasonable changes which successfully navigate punishing cheesy WAAC strategies while leaving normal lists untouched. Obscene, I tell you! Obscene!

EDIT: I lied. My under-pointed flying Hive Tyrants went up a few points. I mean, what a world we live in! I'm literally going to die!

DS spears was just a defensive mechanic - it actually nerfed their offensive potential by making your first charge move more difficult - they move freaking 16 - quicken is all you need to charge their back line.

They did manage to nerf gardians though - which was totally warranted.

Well, there's one particular decisions that I have to question, and that's the "2-3-4" of a kind rule.

I'm not actually sure how to build an army that abides by that restriction, other than just bringing a pile of troops. There aren't that many different choices of unit available.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
Well, there's one particular decisions that I have to question, and that's the "2-3-4" of a kind rule.

I'm not actually sure how to build an army that abides by that restriction, other than just bringing a pile of troops. There aren't that many different choices of unit available.

Every single one of my armies, including my Sororitas foot brigade, is completely unchanged by that restriction. In fact, my Sororitas foot brigade nets me 15CP now, which... I never really used before. I guess I can do it on imagifier re-rolls and make even more AOFs, lol.

 TonyH122 wrote:
I am usually a pretty well-balanced, happy guy. It's usually all good, but usually I need to let out my anger, or else it bottles up. So I'm glad this thread exists. I play three different armies, and boy did this FAQ come as a blow. I mean, cutting down on smite spam, deep strike spam, soup spam, and unit spam! I mean, I play three different armies (CSM, DG, and Nids) and these changes don't effect me at all! I mean, how am I supposed to get my salt out when there are such reasonable changes which successfully navigate punishing cheesy WAAC strategies while leaving normal lists untouched. Obscene, I tell you! Obscene!

EDIT: I lied. My under-pointed flying Hive Tyrants went up a few points. I mean, what a world we live in! I'm literally going to die!

I'm pretty sure deep striking a tyrgon with a CC unit inside is standard in 90% or more of all nids lists. It's now gone. Hive tyrants can no longer get into the fight turn 1 - the unit is basically useless now and costs more. DG are OP - they are still OP. CSM still suck - would have been nice if vehicles got their army traits like literally every other army right?

You mean figuratively.

Bharring wrote:
Too bad they didn't nerf Shining Spears.

They could have done something to make Ynnari worse, that'd help.

Or maybe make it so they can't DS then Quicken?

Or maybe require that, if they DS on turn 1, perhaps they can only do so in their deployment zone?

Or maybe bump the points of the pyskers that buff them?

Hopefully, next set of nerfs will do one of those...

Spears did get nerfed, look at page 5 you cannot move a unit that has been deepstruck with any spell or stratagem. So soulbursting that spear unit to move won't work.

https://whc-cdn.games-workshop.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/warhammer_40000_rulebook_en-1.pdf

APPARENTLY IT WAS SARCASM

Yeah, that was sarcasm.

I see spears as nerfed. Nerfed enough? We'll see. I'm not sure Reapers were nerfed enough either, but they were more dependent on Ynnari than Spears.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Question: what other models in the game can only be fielded by Aux detatchments?

(It's going to be really weird using Aux detatchements to bring Troops...)

 Crastok wrote:

Bharring wrote:
Too bad they didn't nerf Shining Spears.

They could have done something to make Ynnari worse, that'd help.

Or maybe make it so they can't DS then Quicken?

Or maybe require that, if they DS on turn 1, perhaps they can only do so in their deployment zone?

Or maybe bump the points of the pyskers that buff them?

Hopefully, next set of nerfs will do one of those...

Spears did get nerfed, look at page 5 you cannot move a unit that has been deepstruck with any spell or stratagem. So soulbursting that spear unit to move won't work.

https://whc-cdn.games-workshop.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/warhammer_40000_rulebook_en-1.pdf

Also to your point "Or maybe require that, if they DS on turn 1, perhaps they can only do so in their deployment zone?" .... They did you can only deepstrike in your deployment zone on turn 1. did you even read all the FAQ changes lol

They'll just have to start on the table now and quicken into the fight. 32" move with quicken - they never needed the deep strike to get into action - it was just defensive. The same 3 command points eldar were using to deepstrike a gardian and spear unit can just be used to make aliotic spears -2 to hit on turn 1 - screen by 2 units on rangers so you can't get within 12". The only meaningful nerf eldar got was the spirit seer going up 20 points (which was warranted).

 Xenomancers wrote:

 TonyH122 wrote:
I am usually a pretty well-balanced, happy guy. It's usually all good, but usually I need to let out my anger, or else it bottles up. So I'm glad this thread exists. I play three different armies, and boy did this FAQ come as a blow. I mean, cutting down on smite spam, deep strike spam, soup spam, and unit spam! I mean, I play three different armies (CSM, DG, and Nids) and these changes don't effect me at all! I mean, how am I supposed to get my salt out when there are such reasonable changes which successfully navigate punishing cheesy WAAC strategies while leaving normal lists untouched. Obscene, I tell you! Obscene!

EDIT: I lied. My under-pointed flying Hive Tyrants went up a few points. I mean, what a world we live in! I'm literally going to die!

I'm pretty sure deep striking a tyrgon with a CC unit inside is standard in 90% or more of all nids lists. It's now gone. Hive tyrants can no longer get into the fight turn 1 - the unit is basically useless now and costs more. DG are OP - they are still OP. CSM still suck - would have been nice if vehicles got their army traits like literally every other army right?

Well, unless I deploy the Trygon turn 2.

 Xenomancers wrote:
They'll just have to start on the table now and quicken into the fight. 32" move with quicken - they never needed the deep strike to get into action - it was just defensive. The same 3 command points eldar were using to deepstrike a gardian and spear unit can just be used to make aliotic spears -2 to hit on turn 1 - screen by 2 units on rangers so you can't get within 12". The only meaningful nerf eldar got was the spirit seer going up 20 points (which was warranted).

IOW:
"Shining spears are totally the same now, honest. Just use this Rube Goldberg machine to replace what was stupidly simple and easy earlier, and you'll be fine!"

Plus, having them on the board Turn 1 means they get shot Turn 1. Having them in deep strike does not. Getting shot with a -2 after paying a bunch of CP is completely different from getting shot never.

I dunno, I'm super salty about my corsairs requiring an Aux detatchment *PER TROOPS CHOICE*.

Sure, I can give them a DT now. I think - is their an Aux Transport detatchement?

Bharring wrote:
Yeah, that was sarcasm.

I see spears as nerfed. Nerfed enough? We'll see. I'm not sure Reapers were nerfed enough either, but they were more dependent on Ynnari than Spears.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Question: what other models in the game can only be fielded by Aux detatchments?

(It's going to be really weird using Aux detatchements to bring Troops...)

Think bigger - ynnari reapers are only a little bit better than aloitoc reapers. Now your 10 man is -1 to be hit - and will be guided every turn rerolling all hits. Plus no need to Yvrain tax or anything ynnari now - the 200ish points you save from not having to take that crap is 6 more reapers. Negligible nerf. Every 20 reapers will only cost an addition 100 points.

Teschio wrote:

 techsoldaten wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Teschio wrote:
Did they really need to nerf tide of traitors? Chaos is not the best army out there (especially now that you can't spam obliterators or PBCs anymore), it already took a hit with nerfing soup lists, I really think this nerf was unnecessary.

It was necessary considering immutable morale with Abaddon and two massive blocks of them would be unshiftable by almost any list.

I can confirm how OP this is. Have been winning a lot of games by using ToT in turn 4 to just walk onto objectives. When they are near Abaddon, there's nothing anyone can do.

A friend of mine, frequent opponent, uses 9 vertus preators + captain on jetbike. They easily kill 2 40-men units a turn (with a lot to spare too). "Nothing anyone can do" just means you haven't faced hard counters (which are more than you think). Also, remember your cultists enter from a table edge, often that's enough to prevent them from getting to objectives (and if your opponent allows you to do that, even when he knows about that stratagem, it's his fault, honestly). You also need to re-enter within 12" of Abbadon or you're toast. Is tide of traitors a good stratagem? Sure, it's excellent. But since nerfing obliterators and PBCs was already a huge hit for Chaos lists, and Chaos isn't the strongest army out there to begin with, was nerfing it really a good idea?

I usually go second. If your friend can ignore everything else on the board at the bottom of turn 5 to go after one unit of cultists, good for him.

Most players cannot, usually I don't lose more than 20 before the game ends and the 20 that are left are enough to hold the point. Not to mention, I'm doing this on turn 3 too, unless said Cultists are already in an optimal spot.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not excited about nerfing CSMs. I'm just saying I have won a lot of games by walking rejuvenated Cultist squads onto objectives. I'm not sure I can think of a realistic hard counter to that tactic.

I think Eldar as a whole took a decent nerf. Points up on supporting characters and reapers as well as soup nerf (not huge but no more DE troops). Each reaper up 7 points so if you take 20, that is an extra 140 points, so with support you are probably looking at 1800 points in your list if you using the old points. Then spears losing movement. It almost makes it worth gambling by starting them on the table.

Bharring wrote:
I dunno, I'm super salty about my corsairs requiring an Aux detatchment *PER TROOPS CHOICE*.

Sure, I can give them a DT now. I think - is their an Aux Transport detatchement?

Eventually they will get a codex man. They are just not on the radar right now.

Oh and powers going up in WC.

Breng77 wrote:
Oh and powers going up in WC.

Where are those listed? I don't see them.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 mrhappyface wrote:

And I suppose World Eaters aren't melee specialists?

Also, it doesn't make transports more viable it just makes deepstrike less viable.

I don't necessarily disagree with that sentiment, but it's what might be needed to get people using them more.

I don't see anyone using them more, just because a good option has become worse doesn't mean the bad option suddenly becomes better. If they wanted to make transports more viable they should have buffed transports instead of killing deepstrike.

In fact, without deepstriking units to distract your opponent turn 1, transports have become even worse as they're more likely to be targeted and leave the occupants foot slogging.

Those anti-tank weapons weren't likely shooting the deepstrikers anyway.

And what of weapons with two fire options? Those rocket Devs and those Dark Reapers that originally were going to blow away the deepstriking units have now turned on the transports.

It would be nice if they put all the FAQ changes in this page called...FAQ summary. Idk...maybe I'm just picky. Wait no...GW is just very bad at this.

 Xenomancers wrote:
It would be nice if they put all the FAQ changes in this page called...FAQ summary. Idk...maybe I'm just picky. Wait no...GW is just very bad at this.

I too would like a system built around keeping a separate FAQ per book to suddenly abandon that premise and instead bundle all the FAQs together in a single unreadable mess, and then label it a "summary" as if to imply there was more substance elsewhere.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Breng77 wrote:
Oh and powers going up in WC.

Where are those listed? I don't see them.

In the summary it lists Word of the Pheonix going up to WC 8 in the Xenos 2 index

Bharring wrote:
Too bad they didn't nerf Shining Spears.

They could have done something to make Ynnari worse, that'd help.

Or maybe make it so they can't DS then Quicken?

Or maybe require that, if they DS on turn 1, perhaps they can only do so in their deployment zone?

Or maybe bump the points of the pyskers that buff them?

Hopefully, next set of nerfs will do one of those...

Misread your post. Never mind.

 mrhappyface wrote:

I don't see anyone using them more, just because a good option has become worse doesn't mean the bad option suddenly becomes better. If they wanted to make transports more viable they should have buffed transports instead of killing deepstrike.

Again I don't necessarily disagree, but I think that needs to come incrementally. Otherwise dakka rhinos would proliferate.

And what of weapons with two fire options? Those rocket Devs and those Dark Reapers that originally were going to blow away the deepstriking units have now turned on the transports.

Sure, fair point though the former is rare and the latter took a solid point increase.