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Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




 Marmatag wrote:
Marine chapter tactics as a whole are just awful. Why should Iron Hands be any different?

They were already second to worst, right above White Scars. Now they're solidly worse than White Scars!

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Crimson wrote:
 BaconCatBug wrote:
Sub faction rules were just a bad idea to begin with. Some always end up being much better than others, and then you will be punished for your chapter/regiment/craftworld/etc choice or have to play counts as. By that logic all faction rules are a bad idea, Some always end up being much better than others, and then you will be punished for your faction choice or have to play counts as.

This isn't Chess.

I knew someone would say that. It's different though, with different factions there are completely different units. Do these extra rules actually add something worthwhile in the game? I really preferred the time when Space Marines (outside the snowflake chapters) were just Space Marines and you could use all special characters for any chapter. This just leads the players of the subfactions who do not get the best rules (and that is always most of them) being bitter. All Eldar players use Alaitoc anyway, whats the point of even having the rules for other craftworlds? Besides, these rules often do not even reflect the fluff of the subfactions; Ravenguard favours Dread gunlines and if you want to bring a lot of IG tanks then Catachans are one of the best choices. Just scrap this unnecessary nonsense.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Marmatag wrote:
Marine chapter tactics as a whole are just awful. Why should Iron Hands be any different?

Ravenguard tactic is good, though that is exactly the sort of armywide rule that should have never existed.


Except it's not army wide, none of the marine traits are, it only applies to infantry and dreadnaughts.
   
Made in fi
Courageous Space Marine Captain






Ice_can wrote:

Except it's not army wide, none of the marine traits are, it only applies to infantry and dreadnaughts.

Sure. Almost army wide. Still shouldn't exist.

   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




 Crimson wrote:
Ice_can wrote:

Except it's not army wide, none of the marine traits are, it only applies to infantry and dreadnaughts.

Sure. Almost army wide. Still shouldn't exist.

Why not?

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Chaplain with Hate to Spare






If only we could somehow use internet salt and hyperbole as a power source.

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




 Insectum7 wrote:
If only we could somehow use internet salt and hyperbole as a power source.

Then please by all means defend the move and tell Iron Hands players they lost nothing of value. I insist.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in ca
Bounding Ultramarine Assault Trooper





Sucks how Iron hands went from the best tactic in 7th to the worst one in 8th as they lost IWND and the 6+ save is less impressive compared to other options,

Ultramarine 6000 : Imperial Knights 1700 : Grey Knights 1000 : Ad mech 500 :Nids 4000 : Necrons 500 : Death watch 500 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




It is funny how a Ravenguard Venerable Dreadnought is now more durable than an Iron Hands one.
   
Made in fi
Locked in the Tower of Amareo





Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
 Crimson wrote:
Ice_can wrote:

Except it's not army wide, none of the marine traits are, it only applies to infantry and dreadnaughts.

Sure. Almost army wide. Still shouldn't exist.

Why not?


Kills balance, makes unfluffy armies, encourages just chapter hopping so you have same models being used as blood angels, dark angels, ultramarines, grey knights, chaos marines(and no I have even seen that sort of usage so not just theory) etc whatever happens to suit your model collection best at each game.

2024 painted/bought: 109/109 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




tneva82 wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
 Crimson wrote:
Ice_can wrote:

Except it's not army wide, none of the marine traits are, it only applies to infantry and dreadnaughts.

Sure. Almost army wide. Still shouldn't exist.

Why not?


Kills balance, makes unfluffy armies, encourages just chapter hopping so you have same models being used as blood angels, dark angels, ultramarines, grey knights, chaos marines(and no I have even seen that sort of usage so not just theory) etc whatever happens to suit your model collection best at each game.

Special Characters are doing that for the Marine army right now. It works pretty well for CSM and they're not great with internal balance!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also...unfluffy armies. Pray tell.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/04/18 03:41:24


CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Chaplain with Hate to Spare






Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
If only we could somehow use internet salt and hyperbole as a power source.

Then please by all means defend the move and tell Iron Hands players they lost nothing of value. I insist.


I don't have to, even losing something of (little) value =/= "RIP Iron hands".

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




 Insectum7 wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
If only we could somehow use internet salt and hyperbole as a power source.

Then please by all means defend the move and tell Iron Hands players they lost nothing of value. I insist.


I don't have to, even losing something of (little) value =/= "RIP Iron hands".

YES it does. It's literally the only thing they really had going for them. Now Raven Guard Venerable Dreads are more durable. Think about that.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in us
Terminator with Assault Cannon






OKC, Oklahoma

Wow, really? The "only thing they had going"?

Here's a thought.... spend the extra 8 points for the Contemptor Dred and get +2 wounds and a 5+ invul save.
Yeah, it does have the drawback of the damage chart, but will be on the board a lot longer than pretty much any other Dred.
This would be a seriously tough Dred to take down.

But if you would rather try rolling for 6s for an hour.... feel free to whine about it to GW. K?

Of all the races of the universe the Squats have the longest memories and the shortest tempers. They are uncouth, unpredictably violent, and frequently drunk. Overall, I'm glad they're on our side!

Office of Naval Intelligence Research discovers 3 out of 4 sailors make up 75% of U.S. Navy.
"Madness is like gravity... All you need is a little push."

:Nilla Marines: 2500
:Marine "Scouts": 2500 (Systemically Quarantined, Unsupported, Abhuman, Truncated Soldiers)

"On one side of me stand my Homeworld, Stronghold and Brotherhood; On the other, my ancestors. I cannot behave otherwise than honorably."
 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




 helgrenze wrote:
Wow, really? The "only thing they had going"?

Here's a thought.... spend the extra 8 points for the Contemptor Dred and get +2 wounds and a 5+ invul save.
Yeah, it does have the drawback of the damage chart, but will be on the board a lot longer than pretty much any other Dred.
This would be a seriously tough Dred to take down.

But if you would rather try rolling for 6s for an hour.... feel free to whine about it to GW. K?

...and the Raven Guard one is more durable still? What's the point if this post?

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
 helgrenze wrote:
Wow, really? The "only thing they had going"?

Here's a thought.... spend the extra 8 points for the Contemptor Dred and get +2 wounds and a 5+ invul save.
Yeah, it does have the drawback of the damage chart, but will be on the board a lot longer than pretty much any other Dred.
This would be a seriously tough Dred to take down.

But if you would rather try rolling for 6s for an hour.... feel free to whine about it to GW. K?

...and the Raven Guard one is more durable still? What's the point if this post?


You could argue they are about as durable outside of 12 inches. The one thing this change does mean is that the Contemptor is the better choice now most of the time. I won’t be bringing Venerable Dreads anymore.
   
Made in us
Terminator with Assault Cannon






OKC, Oklahoma

Slayer-fan123, Not really, it is just harder to hit.
Imagine either being hit by a Lascannon for 4 wounds.
The RG eats those 4 wounds, the IH maybe avoids one or two.
Which one is likely to last longer?
Even getting into a straight shootout between the two, (someone could probably Mathhammer this.) the IH Dred has a better survival chance due to the IH tactic.

Of all the races of the universe the Squats have the longest memories and the shortest tempers. They are uncouth, unpredictably violent, and frequently drunk. Overall, I'm glad they're on our side!

Office of Naval Intelligence Research discovers 3 out of 4 sailors make up 75% of U.S. Navy.
"Madness is like gravity... All you need is a little push."

:Nilla Marines: 2500
:Marine "Scouts": 2500 (Systemically Quarantined, Unsupported, Abhuman, Truncated Soldiers)

"On one side of me stand my Homeworld, Stronghold and Brotherhood; On the other, my ancestors. I cannot behave otherwise than honorably."
 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




 helgrenze wrote:
Slayer-fan123, Not really, it is just harder to hit.
Imagine either being hit by a Lascannon for 4 wounds.
The RG eats those 4 wounds, the IH maybe avoids one or two.
Which one is likely to last longer?
Even getting into a straight shootout between the two, (someone could probably Mathhammer this.) the IH Dred has a better survival chance due to the IH tactic.

-1 to hit + 6+++ > 6+++

Did you read the thread at all?

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in us
Death-Dealing Devastator




Chicago, IL

Now I get that faction specific abilities don't always effect every unit evenly and some not at all. A good example would be any faction with some kind of improved shooting would offer no benefit to a strictly melee unit.

The big problem is that this had to effect the venerable dreadnought of all things. Dreadnoughts, shocker, are a big deal to Ironhands. This is the equivalent of if White Scare tactics working on everything but bikes.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/04/18 06:50:00


To those that say there is no stupid questions I say, "Is this a stupid question?" 
   
Made in fi
Locked in the Tower of Amareo





 helgrenze wrote:
Slayer-fan123, Not really, it is just harder to hit.
Imagine either being hit by a Lascannon for 4 wounds.
The RG eats those 4 wounds, the IH maybe avoids one or two.
Which one is likely to last longer?
Even getting into a straight shootout between the two, (someone could probably Mathhammer this.) the IH Dred has a better survival chance due to the IH tactic.


Eh really?

6 lascannons shoots at IH. 4 hits, 2.6 wounds, 2.2 goes through save, multiplied to 7.77, 6.48 after IH trait.

RG. 6 lascannons, 3 hits, 2 wounds, 1.66 past save, 5.83 after damage.

Since when 6.48 is less than 5.83?

2024 painted/bought: 109/109 
   
Made in us
Terminator with Assault Cannon






OKC, Oklahoma

tneva82 wrote:
 helgrenze wrote:
Slayer-fan123, Not really, it is just harder to hit.
Imagine either being hit by a Lascannon for 4 wounds.
The RG eats those 4 wounds, the IH maybe avoids one or two.
Which one is likely to last longer?
Even getting into a straight shootout between the two, (someone could probably Mathhammer this.) the IH Dred has a better survival chance due to the IH tactic.


Eh really?

6 lascannons shoots at IH. 4 hits, 2.6 wounds, 2.2 goes through save, multiplied to 7.77, 6.48 after IH trait.

RG. 6 lascannons, 3 hits, 2 wounds, 1.66 past save, 5.83 after damage.

Since when 6.48 is less than 5.83?


Rounding it out +/- at the .50 mark, they both take 6 in damage, making them equal. It is a .65 difference and lets face it, mathhamer doesn't account for luck, it just works the averages.

Of all the races of the universe the Squats have the longest memories and the shortest tempers. They are uncouth, unpredictably violent, and frequently drunk. Overall, I'm glad they're on our side!

Office of Naval Intelligence Research discovers 3 out of 4 sailors make up 75% of U.S. Navy.
"Madness is like gravity... All you need is a little push."

:Nilla Marines: 2500
:Marine "Scouts": 2500 (Systemically Quarantined, Unsupported, Abhuman, Truncated Soldiers)

"On one side of me stand my Homeworld, Stronghold and Brotherhood; On the other, my ancestors. I cannot behave otherwise than honorably."
 
   
Made in fi
Locked in the Tower of Amareo





 helgrenze wrote:
tneva82 wrote:
 helgrenze wrote:
Slayer-fan123, Not really, it is just harder to hit.
Imagine either being hit by a Lascannon for 4 wounds.
The RG eats those 4 wounds, the IH maybe avoids one or two.
Which one is likely to last longer?
Even getting into a straight shootout between the two, (someone could probably Mathhammer this.) the IH Dred has a better survival chance due to the IH tactic.


Eh really?

6 lascannons shoots at IH. 4 hits, 2.6 wounds, 2.2 goes through save, multiplied to 7.77, 6.48 after IH trait.

RG. 6 lascannons, 3 hits, 2 wounds, 1.66 past save, 5.83 after damage.

Since when 6.48 is less than 5.83?


Rounding it out +/- at the .50 mark, they both take 6 in damage, making them equal. It is a .65 difference and lets face it, mathhamer doesn't account for luck, it just works the averages.


You realize right that this effect keeps going up? Both don't take 6 damage.

And luck? LUCK? You seriously brought LUCK into arqument about BALANCE?

You lost your arqument. If you bring luck into arqument your arquments lost all validity.

2024 painted/bought: 109/109 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




 helgrenze wrote:
tneva82 wrote:
 helgrenze wrote:
Slayer-fan123, Not really, it is just harder to hit.
Imagine either being hit by a Lascannon for 4 wounds.
The RG eats those 4 wounds, the IH maybe avoids one or two.
Which one is likely to last longer?
Even getting into a straight shootout between the two, (someone could probably Mathhammer this.) the IH Dred has a better survival chance due to the IH tactic.


Eh really?

6 lascannons shoots at IH. 4 hits, 2.6 wounds, 2.2 goes through save, multiplied to 7.77, 6.48 after IH trait.

RG. 6 lascannons, 3 hits, 2 wounds, 1.66 past save, 5.83 after damage.

Since when 6.48 is less than 5.83?


Rounding it out +/- at the .50 mark, they both take 6 in damage, making them equal. It is a .65 difference and lets face it, mathhamer doesn't account for luck, it just works the averages.

You can't just round when you feel like it. That's not how math works...

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in gb
Fresh-Faced New User





I still think this is being way overblown. Yes technically every variant of the venerable dread is now better than the IH version and that sucks, but to proclaim it as the death of iron hands is ridiculous.

Your warlord trait, stratagem and relic are meh, however...

You still have a 20% increase in durability against non-overkill damage for all your infantry and non-venerable dreads (of which there are lots: regular, mortis, contemptor etc.).

You still have the one thing that few of the other chapter tactics have really, a non-situational buff.
RGs bonus is useless up close or in melee
IF is frequently useless depending on terrain/tactics
UM doesn't really help against ranged stuff and marines running is rare if you use MSU.
BT only helps melee and now I think of it was only tempting for turn 1 deepstrike charges which...
WS basically only synergises with a few units, specifically those that can fly.

Salamanders is the closest contender to a non-situational buff and even then ironically the weapons it helps the least are flamers.

The IH buff is a tactic you don't have to think about, its just a straight up buff in almost all situations to your durability. The only time it doesnt really help is when your units are being overkilled (e.g. picking your marines of with 2 damage weapons) but mostly inefficiency on your opponents part. As of the FAQ this includes you have one less unit this synergises with. My personal chapter has a hazy history and I play counts as IF, IH or RG depending on the scenario/what I fancy trying that day. Sure RG is what I'd prefer in most situations, but I definitely prefer IH to IF.

Just switch up your dreads. Drop them down to normal dreads and keep the venerable FNP bonus. If you can get hit rerolls the difference in shooting output is negligible, and I dont know about you but chapter master strategem became a bit more tempting with +5 pt batallions. Or just stick any forgeworld chapter master in there.
   
Made in gb
Jovial Plaguebearer of Nurgle




Leicester

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Champion of Slaanesh wrote:
Why should iron hands get a special pass?
Quite frankly iron hands should be lucky they got anything at all
As a chaos player my marks don't do anything anymore. Heck Nurgle marines who are supposed to be tougher are just as durable as any other marine unless they are death guard or a plague marine. Please quit yo complaining

That's a problem with the 4 God Legions not being well written but you are already getting those later. You still at least get Legion rules. Iron Hands literally lost the best gimmick they had from a frickin Community article!

Well no im not on about the 4 god specific legions im on about marked chaos marines in general
   
Made in us
Terminator with Assault Cannon






OKC, Oklahoma

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

You can't just round when you feel like it. That's not how math works...


No, but this game works with round numbers not parts of numbers. Rounding for clarity becomes necessary.

Also, the RG tactic is very dependent on range, the IH one isn't. Close the range and the RG take more damage than IH due to the IH tactic.

Of all the races of the universe the Squats have the longest memories and the shortest tempers. They are uncouth, unpredictably violent, and frequently drunk. Overall, I'm glad they're on our side!

Office of Naval Intelligence Research discovers 3 out of 4 sailors make up 75% of U.S. Navy.
"Madness is like gravity... All you need is a little push."

:Nilla Marines: 2500
:Marine "Scouts": 2500 (Systemically Quarantined, Unsupported, Abhuman, Truncated Soldiers)

"On one side of me stand my Homeworld, Stronghold and Brotherhood; On the other, my ancestors. I cannot behave otherwise than honorably."
 
   
Made in gb
Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar





Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
If only we could somehow use internet salt and hyperbole as a power source.

Then please by all means defend the move and tell Iron Hands players they lost nothing of value. I insist.


I don't have to, even losing something of (little) value =/= "RIP Iron hands".

YES it does. It's literally the only thing they really had going for them. Now Raven Guard Venerable Dreads are more durable. Think about that.
So you've lost the flat-out 16.666% buff to all your infantry, bikes, and other Dreads, except those two? And that 16.666% buff wasn't important on anyone except those two units?




Wait, you haven't? It wasn't?
Ah well. Best not let facts get in the way of hyperbole.


They/them

 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




 helgrenze wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

You can't just round when you feel like it. That's not how math works...


No, but this game works with round numbers not parts of numbers. Rounding for clarity becomes necessary.

Also, the RG tactic is very dependent on range, the IH one isn't. Close the range and the RG take more damage than IH due to the IH tactic.

Once again, not how math works. You have to add up how it goes over time, and you ruin statistics with that train of thought.
Gunlines were improved with the FAQ as well, which once again makes Raven Guard the superior choice.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
If only we could somehow use internet salt and hyperbole as a power source.

Then please by all means defend the move and tell Iron Hands players they lost nothing of value. I insist.


I don't have to, even losing something of (little) value =/= "RIP Iron hands".

YES it does. It's literally the only thing they really had going for them. Now Raven Guard Venerable Dreads are more durable. Think about that.
So you've lost the flat-out 16.666% buff to all your infantry, bikes, and other Dreads, except those two? And that 16.666% buff wasn't important on anyone except those two units?




Wait, you haven't? It wasn't?
Ah well. Best not let facts get in the way of hyperbole.

You're deliberately missing the point. They lost an additional buff to a unit that's frickin fluffy for them on top of not sucking. Now that unit is 100% worse compared to the same choice with every other chapter.

That was the thing they had going for them. Better Ven Dreadnoughts. Give a reason to run the army now.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Champion of Slaanesh wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Champion of Slaanesh wrote:
Why should iron hands get a special pass?
Quite frankly iron hands should be lucky they got anything at all
As a chaos player my marks don't do anything anymore. Heck Nurgle marines who are supposed to be tougher are just as durable as any other marine unless they are death guard or a plague marine. Please quit yo complaining

That's a problem with the 4 God Legions not being well written but you are already getting those later. You still at least get Legion rules. Iron Hands literally lost the best gimmick they had from a frickin Community article!

Well no im not on about the 4 god specific legions im on about marked chaos marines in general

I understand ya. The Chaos Lord entry in the Death Guard codex probably irks 100% of players. At least they HAVE a bonus of some kind (though the bonus is mostly lost on them let's be honest).

My main issue is that they literally lost an ability that was a selling point in the Community Article, and honestly it was one of the only selling points of the Iron Hands army.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/04/18 15:23:42


CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User




This kills what little competitiveness the army has for me. Yes the army has a durability buff and largely what drew me to the army besides the fluff. However, I feel tactically the one thing that kept us in the running was double FNP ven dreads and warlord captain Smashf****r or even triple FNP with the ven chappie dread warlord. Big distraction carnifexes. We've lost that now. With no special rules characters to pull on we dont have anything TACTICAL. It just takes longer to shoot us off the board.

I wont stop playing IH, I still have hope they will return to GW's good graces at a later date. But I'm probably going to pick up Necrons for tournaments until then.
   
Made in us
Deadshot Weapon Moderati




MI

Yeah, GW made a big mistake with Flesh is Weak and the new wound save ruling. The least they could have done was to specifically errata Flesh is Weak to provide a +1 to the roll or some other benefit when stacked to allow the signature Iron Hand Ven Dreads to still be a thing while also keeping it to being just one die roll. I do not even play Iron Hands, but I still think what GW did to them with this ruling was absurd.
   
Made in es
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain




Vigo. Spain.

The rule should change to give tou a 6+++ or improve your FNP save if you already have one by +1. Is a very simple solution.

 Crimson Devil wrote:

Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.

ERJAK wrote:
Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.

 
   
 
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