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2018/04/26 16:38:26
Subject: Re:Changing Black Templars Chapter Tactics, 3 months later
As a throwaway idea, what if we change "reroll charges" to "roll 3D6 for charges" and forget about attack increases? It'd mean doubling down on Deep Strike assaulting, but that fits the BT fluff to a T, and it might actually let BT get units into close combat before the game ends. Still hit like wet noodles, but you'd have more noodles because you'd get there faster.
For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back.
2018/04/26 16:39:34
Subject: Changing Black Templars Chapter Tactics, 3 months later
But you also get better melee units and +1 to wound on the charge. There's only so many boni you can give to various melee armies before they step on someone else's toes.
For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back.
2018/04/26 18:09:08
Subject: Re:Changing Black Templars Chapter Tactics, 3 months later
AlmightyWalrus wrote: But you also get better melee units and +1 to wound on the charge. There's only so many boni you can give to various melee armies before they step on someone else's toes.
And the thing is how many different bonuses can you give before they all have the same sorta bonus?
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
2018/04/26 18:26:15
Subject: Re:Changing Black Templars Chapter Tactics, 3 months later
AlmightyWalrus wrote: But you also get better melee units and +1 to wound on the charge. There's only so many boni you can give to various melee armies before they step on someone else's toes.
All meaningless in the big picture because we get shot to death before it's relevant.
Fix marines. Then worry about this crap.
2018/04/27 01:56:49
Subject: Re:Changing Black Templars Chapter Tactics, 3 months later
evil_kiwi_60 wrote: The fanboy is strong in this one. I seem to recall a certain armless failure running Sigmund through.
So someone claiming that Berzerkers are "the pinnacle of hand-to-hand combat" because they are "the favourites of Khorne" is a completely factual and fair statement, but when I point out that Sigismund demolished Khârn (and everyone else he came across for that matter) I'm a fanboy? Do you think you could leave your personal attacks outside this thread?
Abaddon isn't a Berzerker, Khârn is. Abaddon has no relevance to the relative power of Black Templars vs. Khorne Berzerkers in the flull. Regardless, I seem to recall Abaddon going up against an aged and wizened Sigismund and losing a heart in the process while empowered by all four Chaos Gods. You made my point stronger with your statement.
If you fight berserkers with just T4 3+ models, you are going to have a bad time. That's their entire point. They kill medium and light infantry. Either shoot them or bring in something sturdy to tie them up. It is not a balance problem if you constantly fight on battlefields that don't favor you.
Let's take a look at that statement, shall we?
Using my proposed Chapter Tactics, 5 Vanguard Veterans with Power Swords and chainswords (110 points, assuming Jump Packs) vs. Terminator equivalents (2+ armour, 5+ invulnerable):
Spoiler:
Power Swords: 21*(2/3)*(1/2)*(1/2)=3.5 wounds.
Chainswords: 10*(2/3)*(1/2)*(1/6)=0.555... wounds
Total: Slightly more than 4 wounds, or 2 dead TEQ,
6 Berzerkers (Chainaxe/chainsword and Icon, 108 points):
Chainaxes: 24*(2/3)*(2/3)*(1/3)=3.555... wounds
Chainswords: 10*(2/3)*(2/3)*(1/6)=0.740740...
Total: Around 4.2 wounds.
So your "anti-light and medium infantry melee unit" would outperform a dedicated anti-Terminator unit at killing Terminators even with my proposed buff. In other words, your assertment that Khorne Berzerkers "kill medium and light infantry", while technically true, fails to mention that they kill heavy infantry better than any other melee unit in the game.
In fact, let's be completely absurd and use 5 TH/SS Terminators that fight twice and their equivalent points in Berzerkers to see what that ends up like against TEQ, shall we? We're both in agreement that TH/SS Terminators should be much better at killing other Terminators than Berzerkers, yes? Mind you, this is Berzerkers without any Legion Tactic as well.
Spoiler:
5 TH/SS Terminators (235 points) fighting twice versus TEQ:
20*(1/2)*(5/6)*(1/3)*3=16.666... wounds
13 Berzerkers (Chainaxe/chainsword, Icon, 234 points) versus TEQ:
Chainaxe: 54*(2/3)*(2/3)*(1/2)=12
Chainsword: 26*(2/3)*(2/3)*(1/6)=1.925925...
Total: Just under 14 wounds.
Let this sink into your head. Your opposition to TH/SS Terminators having 4 attacks each as "obscene" is kinda silly when they only put out slightly less than 3 wounds more than Berzerkers against one of their optimal targets (multi-wound high-armour save models).
This is the perfect target for TH/SS Terminators: One model where there's as little loss of their 3 damage per hit as possible and where their high S gives them a marked advantage over the Khorne Berzerkers. And sure enough, the TH/SS Terminators would perform much better than the Khorne Berzerkers, because as you yourself pointed out (kinda, sort of) the Khorne Berzerkers are anti-infantry melee units. You don't want me to run a comparison of TH/SS Terminators against Guardsmen or Ork Boyz, trust me.
Isn't this where we'd ideally want melee units to be balanced though? A unit like TH/SS Terminators would be better for the points at dragging down high-wound, high-toughness models whereas Khorne Berzerkers would be better at killing lower-T Infantry. Even then we're ignoring the fact that the Berzerkers are more durable against pretty much everything with an AP than the Terminators (not to mention things with 2 or more damage).
I don't mind Khorne Berzerkers being better at things than Vanguard Veterans or TH/SS Terminators. What I do mind is people crying "OP!" when the suggestion would at best move units up to the level of Khorne Berzerkers.
Also any plans to help flayed ones, warp talons, or banshees? There's a ton of melee units not as good at mulching light and medium infantry as berserkers. Do we need to buff them as well?
Yes, they need buffs too. I don't play Eldar or Necrons, so I don't have much of an opinion on Banshees or Flayed Ones other than recognizing that they suck (and Banshees have since as long as I can remember, they need help!), and I don't have any ideas about how to buff Warp Talons at the moment beyond the omni-present "drop their points" alternative.
What I want to know is why you're trying to deflect from the subject at hand, which is Black Templars.
evil_kiwi_60 wrote: Your average captain is now throwing out 8 attacks as well. I guess you just don't kill black templar characters at all.
Ahem.
evil_kiwi_60 wrote: Either shoot them or bring in something sturdy to tie them up. It is not a balance problem if you constantly fight on battlefields that don't favor you.
Besides, the point hasn't ever been that Khorne Berzerkers are impossible to kill in melee: you just charge them and kill them because they're still MEQ and if you go first you negate their power by killing them (the same would work against BT Characters BTW). The point is that Berzerkers can do the same to units that are more than twice their own points cost and come out on top.
As Marine units built for melee aren't very good at it, I made a thread regarding how Vanguard and Terminators could do with being WS2+. With that said, the Templar Tactic needs something additional, hence why I think an extra attack in the first combat phase is sufficient.
With that also said, the World Eaters need something else too. As only getting an additional attack on them completing a charge is too specific, it needs to be a good effect.
I don't follow. If "extra attack on charge" is too specific and not good for World Eaters, who have access to Khorne Berzerkers, how would "extra attack in the first combat phase" be good enough for Black Templars, whose best melee unit has less than half the output of Khorne Berzerkers?
Haha, sorry dude. I accidentally posted a half baked thought there. I meant to get the pinnacle of combat comment in there as well but jacked it up apparently. No one can win in a fluff fight because the point of view faction will almost always win.
The vanguard vets would enjoy get a 12" movement and the Fly keyword with relatively the same damage output for the same cost. The terminators are also getting 1 extra wound, a 2+, 3++, and the ability to deep strike (beta rule pending but that's another bridge to burn). If the damage is the same, all the extra war gear makes those units flat out better than berserkers. I think your math is off on a bezerker's chance to wound a model with a 2+ armor save. Terminators should be saving 2/3 wounds not 1/2 against a -1 chain axe, right? 16.6 wounds per combat is crazy good damage. That's an average of 2 carnifexes in a round of combat.
I'm not trying to avoid the subject of black templars. I'm pointing out that exponentially buffing one specific codex still leaves the same number of imbalances minus one. All of those players will want a similar upgrade and now the fight phase becomes just the charge phase.
Correct me if I'm wrong, isn't there some rule that prevents players from shooting characters as long as the characters aren't the closest unit? You can shoot the berserkers at any point. Just shooting a character is hardly an option for the armies not blessed with snipers.
What about an advance and charge tactic along with the reroll of a charge?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/04/27 02:04:51
Iron within, Iron without
2018/04/27 04:28:01
Subject: Changing Black Templars Chapter Tactics, 3 months later
It's a misconception to think that giving BTCC bonuses and calling it a day does them justice. BT are not and have never been "melee specialists"- Blood Angels are the loyalist World Eaters equivalent. The BT niche lies in them being a power armored horde- "the black tide"- thus their tactics should be centered around facilitating mass footslogging play and overwhelming enemies with weight of attacks.
To that end, I feel like a combination of leadership bonuses for staying power, movement speed bonuses for getting within close-range shooting/assaults more quickly and some squad size/reserves manipulation would be a decent represenaton of how they're supposed to behave on the tabletop.
I wrote this up while taking a dump this morning. Take it as you will. If a unit has a rule in the codex that isn't listed here that means that I left it unchanged.
Spoiler:
Crusader Squad Changes
- This unit contains 5 Initiates. It can include up to 15 additional Initiates. It can also include 5 Neophytes or up to 10 Neophytes. A Sword Brother can take the place of one Initiate. Each model is armed with a boltgun, bolt pistol, frag grenades and krak grenades. Regardless of combination taken, the unit size may not surpass 20 models, and the number of neophytes taken may not exceed the number of initiates in the squad. - The sword brother may take weapons from the sergeant's list. - If the number of initiates in the unit is 5 or more, 1 initiate may take a special weapon, power weapon or power fist. If the number of initiates in the unit is 10 or more, a 2nd initiate may take a power weapon or power fist. If the number of initiates in the unit is 14 or more, a 3rd initiate may take a special weapon, power weapon or power fist.
Chapter Tactics Crusade of Wrath: Infantry or dreadnoughts with the BLACK TEMPLARS keyword may shoot and then run OR run and then charge. Infantry and dreadnoughts with the BLACK TEMPLARS keyword automatically run up to 6'' when moving toward the closest enemy unit. The Black Tide: If the number of infantry and Dreadnought models with the BLACK TEMPLARS keyword in a particular combat is greater then that of the enemy at the start of the fight phase, your units in that combat must add 1 to wound-rolls for the duration of the phase. Models with the VEHICLE and/or MONSTER keyword count as 3 models for the purpose of adding up either side. TITANIC models count as 5 models.
High Marshal Helbrecht Accept Any Challenge, No Matter the Odds: Infantry and Dreadnoughts with the BLACK TEMPLARS keyword that are within 6'' of Helbrecht always fight first in the Fight phase, even if they didn’t charge. If the enemy has units that have charged, or that have a similar ability, then alternate choosing units to fight with, starting with the player whose turn is taking place.
Chaplain Grimaldus Unmatched Zeal: This ability goes into effect any time a BLACK TEMPLARS unit fires a bolt- weapon OR fights during the fight phase. Any to-hit roll of a 6+ generates one additional hit. Cenobyte Servitors: This unit has the CHARACTER keyword.
Strategems A Sweeping Advance (1CP): Select one crusader squad to be placed in reserves before deployment. At the end of any of the controlling player's movement phase, they may place that unit on a table edge of their choosing (this edge may not be that of the opponent's deployment zone). The unit may be placed up to 9'' from the table edge, but may not be placed less then 9'' from the nearest enemy unit.
Faith and Fury(3cp): Declare the use of this stratagem at the end of your movement phase and select one BLACK TEMPLARS unit. That unit has a 5+ invulnerable save until the beginning of their next turn, and it may re-roll one or both dice when charging.
Cleansing Fire(1cp): During the movement phase, select one BLACK TEMPLARS unit that has not yet fired any of its weapons. That unit counts its bolters as assault 2 until the start of their next turn.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2018/04/27 04:42:43
2018/04/27 11:47:08
Subject: Re:Changing Black Templars Chapter Tactics, 3 months later
If I recall from what i've read, BT fight alot with drop pod assult followed by tank assult (rhinos, land raiders, speeders etc.). Only source of the infantry waves that I can think of would be the artwork, for example 3rd ed rule book front.
I think the current chapter tactic is good even though my dudes are mainly about bolters. It would have been nice if it also increased ld like the UM tactic. That would help bigger squads a little.
Automatically Appended Next Post: BtwBT might not have the best tactic buff. But our strategem is superb. So maybe it balances out gamewise.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/04/27 11:50:51
Brutal, but kunning!
2018/04/27 14:55:32
Subject: Re:Changing Black Templars Chapter Tactics, 3 months later
A melee-focused force of fanatical warriors that hate psykers. Did I just describe World Eaters or Black Templars?
Blood Angels are the mobility specialists, but they're (mostly) Codex-adherent. Templars invented the Land Raider Crusader so they could get into combat faster. As has been mentioned, the two preferred types of operation for the Templars are Drop Pod Assaults and Armoured Spearheads, both dedicated to getting to the enemy faster so they can be chopped up. There weren't even Templar Devastator squads until GW folded them into Vanilla in 6th. BT are more of a melee specialist army than Blood Angels have ever been.
Sigismund and Khârn were BFFs; this shows in their respective force's modus operandi. They even have the same stratagem. The idea that the Blood Angels are the counterpart tithe World Eaters is off. Both Templars and World Eaters sledgehammer their opposition to dust, while the Blood Angels use their speed to blitz through weak points in the enemy lines. Blood Angels have Death Company, but that fact alone doesn't change the modus operandi of the rest of the Chapter.
For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back.
2018/04/27 15:12:41
Subject: Changing Black Templars Chapter Tactics, 3 months later
Righteous Zeal made Black Templars run towards the enemy because they got pissed at the death of one of their own. The anti-psyker stratagem similarly channels the anger against psykers.
Templars got the angry part of World Eaters, Death Company got the crazy part. World Eaters are anger for the sake of anger, Templars are anger harnessed for a purpose (the Emperor). They're two sides of the same coin, reflected in the relationship between Sigismund and Khârn. Not so different, and yet fundamentally so.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/04/27 15:24:17
For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back.
2018/04/27 15:31:35
Subject: Changing Black Templars Chapter Tactics, 3 months later
Berzerkers aren't just angry. They're Cult troops of Khorne. Do you think Noise Marines are just great shots because they love Slanesh, or Plague Marines are durable because they revere someone durable?
Unmarked WECSM should probably have basically the same rules as BTTac Marines, I agree to that.
Although if you wanted something more in the vein of their previous rules, you could do something like "BT are eligible for Consolidate at the end of the Shooting or Psyker phases if they have lost one or more models that turn". I think that'd be very interesting and powerful. I'd rather a copy of the WE trait, though.
