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 Quickjager wrote:
...I don't think I have ever seen this forum agree so strongly on something.

They just don't want to be brow beat by GK players on how wrong they are.

My vote was Thousand Sons which is what I play. I have never played with/against GK in 8th, but based on watching battle reports and having a fundamental understanding of how 8th works I get why they are considered the worst. I personally think they are tied for the worst codex. The main reason why is both rely on the psychic phase as their primary "thing". Neither army can use the "smite spam" tactic that prompted the rule change for all other armies due to cost of the psychics and the fact that GK does not have a real smite in the army. The psychic phase is very random (I had 9 casts on turn 4 of my last game, got three snake eyes perils and failed all but two other casts, but it was ok because on turn one every power worked so sea-saw in action). Also not being able to even attempt to cast the same spell more than once hurts both GK and TS, even more so for GK who only have 6 powers. And both armies are very over-costed.

Specifically for GK (without allies) what I gather from battle reports and knowing the game is that they have no screening units which is basically a must in 8th. Also they rely on 1 and 2 wound elite model units, which in 8th is the worst stat line since GW hasn't figured out that 3+ save/2+ save is not as good as before, and 2 wounds is like 100 times less effective then previous editions. Personally GK needs a "cultist" type unit, call them imperial militia or henchman or something. If GW can justify Primaris in the fluff, they can justify this. Also, allow them to get smite d3 on an 11+ and their characters have real smite. Finally give them SM psychic powers as well as their own and I think you would see this army much improved (it still won't be top tier because elite armies are not as good in 8th).

As for TS, who I love and will continue to play, they suck because their codex is the definition of rushed. We have 3 elite battle role units, one is a character, one is over priced terminators, and the other is the not great hellbrute. We have two fast battle field role, one of which is freaking spawn, and the other is a 2W model with 5++ as its only save (these guys melt under any shooting attack). TS has very little in the way of anti-tank, with only predators, LC dreads, and defiler really filling that role, and if you are going to take a bunch of these you might as well play CSM and get a more useful Legion tactic, Havocs, Oblits, etc. I am posting a whole thing about TS in proposed rules so I am not going to do it here.

I don't think any Codex army is as week as these two, and as long as the psychic phase is sub par, these will always be mid-tier armies. Mid-tier would be fine with me for my TS by the way.

 minisnatcher wrote:
I voted necrons. Haven't played against grey knights this edition. This poll tells me why.

As a Necrons player, I reaaally have to question the six people who voted for my army... We're almost certainly not the best army in the game, but at worst we're upper-mid tier. It's hard to truly suck when you have units as effective as Immortals, Destroyers, and Doomsday Arks available.

What about deathwatch?

What about them? They're on the list but I don't think that people can make an informed decision about them considering they're only a couple of weeks old.

I voted Grey Knights...but the caveat is that they should be awfully weak as an army (hell, shouldn't be one anyway). So my "meh" level is pretty stout on that one.

 Amishprn86 wrote:

 Mayk0l wrote:
Grey Knights. Not only because of power but also sheer redundancy. Their niche, as well as Marines niche to a degree (as the elite fighters of the imperium), seems to have been taken over by Custodes.
I don't know if GW knows where to go with GK.

They need their own type of powers that are not limited 1 per caster/unit, but the powers need to be very simple and small like "this unit gets +1S", "this unit can re-roll charges", "This unit gain +1 melee attacks," "This unit gains +1BS" having a list of powers like that, something like the PFP chart from DE, but you pick the power for each unit for each turn, this way you can modify your unit when you need to with minor buffs, it gives them a completely different feel from SM and DW now too.

What's wrong with Smite Spam?

If you mean GK smite spam then you're looking at a very poor spamming. Normally GK smites only do 1 point of damage regardless of the success roll. They have no access to a normal smite. 3 Normal smites average 6 points it would take 6 units of GK to match that and if you roll above a 9 then your average damage is 7.5 points (equal to 8 GK units not to mention that the same target has to be the closest unit to all 8 GKs). There are many armies that can put the smite smack down on an opponent better than GK.

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
If you mean GK smite spam then you're looking at a very poor spamming. Normally GK smites only do 1 point of damage regardless of the success roll. They have no access to a normal smite. 3 Normal smites average 6 points it would take 6 units of GK to match that and if you roll above a 9 then your average damage is 7.5 points (equal to 8 GK units not to mention that the same target has to be the closest unit to all 8 GKs). There are many armies that can put the smite smack down on an opponent better than GK.

Grey knights should have either had powers that felt powerful enough that 1 cast was justified or 2 lists of powers.

Hell I'd even take HQs having no limit on how many times they can cast the same power

The real problem with GKs is model count. I can usually squeeze 60 infantry in a 1500 point SM army. With GKs, even with one model in Terminator armor, the best I can do is 35 models in 1500 points. That's just too small for a T4 W1 SV3+ army.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Even my all-Primaris army can manage 57 infantry models in 1500 points.

 xeen wrote:
As for TS, who I love and will continue to play, they suck because their codex is the definition of rushed. We have 3 elite battle role units, one is a character, one is over priced terminators, and the other is the not great hellbrute. We have two fast battle field role, one of which is freaking spawn, and the other is a 2W model with 5++ as its only save (these guys melt under any shooting attack). TS has very little in the way of anti-tank, with only predators, LC dreads, and defiler really filling that role, and if you are going to take a bunch of these you might as well play CSM and get a more useful Legion tactic, Havocs, Oblits, etc. I am posting a whole thing about TS in proposed rules so I am not going to do it here.

I don't think any Codex army is as week as these two, and as long as the psychic phase is sub par, these will always be mid-tier armies. Mid-tier would be fine with me for my TS by the way.

Grey Knights are so much worse off than Thousand Sons it's not even funny. Thousand Sons, at worst, can get carried by the best Daemon Princes in the game (and Daemon Princes in general are very good) and Ahriman. Thousand Sons also have tools that Grey Knights don't have, whether in the psychic phase - 18 powers versus 6 - or in general - chaff like Cultists and Tzaangors. Thousand Sons also have far superior stratagems and potential for crazy combos as a result of that. While both codices are generally going to be relegated to tertiary detachments in top tier lists to add varying levels of support, functionally the Thousand Sons codex is far stronger on its own than the Grey Knight codex, as the poll reflects. Not to mention that, bar the Tzaangor bomb, Thousand Sons generally got a lot of help from the Big FAQ whereas Grey Knights got screwed over hard by it. The main problem with Thousand Sons is that, other than their HQs, they don't do anything particularly better than any other Legion.

From my experience, Grey Knights are the worst hands down, no other codex even comes close. Given the prevalence of allies propping up weaker codices, I find the best way to measure how bad a codex is to work out how well it can stand on its own without allied support. Grey Knights have no chaff, are a psychic army with access to one mediocre discipline and a mostly weakened Smite (except against Daemons) and might be the most inefficient army in the game in terms of durability. Even just comparing them to Thousand Sons, Rubric Marines are so much harder to kill for their points against almost any weapon type in comparison to power-armoured Grey Knights, and they arguably shoot better if you factor in psychic powers and stratagems. Superior combat prowess (and mind you, even in this area Grey Knights are still inefficient!) only matters if you can reliably make it into combat, which most of the codex simply can't. Their anti-tank firepower is almost non-existent or on woefully inefficient platforms, whereas even Thousand Sons at minimum can rely on improved Smites, Predators, Forgefiends, Defilers and the many Forge World units they have access to; Prescience, Veterans of the Long War and the +1 to-wound Tzeentch Daemon psychic power (which Thousand Sons get) can give you some ridiculously efficient firepower. To add to that, if you didn't already know, Grey Knights don't get 90% of the Forge World units that other Marines can get, meaning they can't even rely on power-house units like Leviathans to shore up their weaknesses. Basically, to reliably deal with tanks they have to get into combat and, even then, most of their melee attacks need 5s or 6s to wound your average vehicle; who cares about D3 Damage if you can't wound what you're attacking? And yes, that also applies to Psilencers, as much as someone on this board tried (and failed) to make an argument in their favour not too long ago. Grey Knights not only come up lacking in every area that counts, if you factor in Forge World they also have by far the least amount of unit diversity of any Space Marine faction with a codex. Even if we look at a codex providing good support or hard hitters for other, stronger codices, Grey Knights were effortlessly supplanted by Blood Angels and Custodes.

Gk have a couple viable builds. My favorite one is a deepstriking landraider full of strikers and characters. It's expensive but it demolishes infantry like there's no tomorrow. And characters wreck vehicles. The only problem are lazcannon gunlines that can pre-alphastrike the landraider before it gets teleported, so a large los blocking piece of terrain is a must.

Until every army has a codex, this poll is biased towards armies that do not have onem

 Dr. Mills wrote:
Until every army has a codex, this poll is biased towards armies that do not have onem

The poll only lists armies with a codex...

Which is why the title should be changed. Title says worst army, subject says worst codex. Two extremely different things.

If you want to argue worst army, I dare you to find one worse than Corsairs, though.

Caederes wrote:
Thousand Sons, at worst, can get carried by the best Daemon Princes in the game (and Daemon Princes in general are very good) and Ahriman.

Baby carriers might not be hideable, but there's a reason they're in almost every list multiple times.

Thousand Sons also have tools that Grey Knights don't have, whether in the psychic phase - 18 powers versus 6

Yep, it sucks to have less spells. But it's also pretty solid to have +1 to cast AND deny and to cast with any unit bar flyers and vehicles.

18 spells is a super misleading number. Almost no one is using 5/6 of the daemon spells - 4/6 for specialized builds.
None of the standard units have access to anything outside the TS discipline.
So they have an extra discipline with good spells - from a different army's list.

You couldn't use Terrifying Visions with Purge Soul?
Or Might of Heroes on a DK?
(through allies of course)

- or in general - chaff like Cultists and Tzaangors.

Infantry Squads. Oh those aren't GK? According to Dakka Tzaangors and Cultists aren't Thousand Sons.

Thousand Sons also have far superior stratagems and potential for crazy combos as a result of that.

GK have fight twice, deepstrike for infantry AND dreadnoughts, fight twice for dead character, and two strats that rubrics WISH they had.

While both codices are generally going to be relegated to tertiary detachments in top tier lists to add varying levels of support, functionally the Thousand Sons codex is far stronger on its own than the Grey Knight codex

Sure, when GK don't use allies.

Even just comparing them to Thousand Sons, Rubric Marines are so much harder to kill for their points against almost any weapon type in comparison to power-armoured Grey Knights, and they arguably shoot better if you factor in psychic powers and stratagems.

S5 AP1 stormbolters vs S4 AP2 bolters with +1 to wound
Strike Squads can deepstrike without CP
GK units don't obliterate themselves on peril
And even if it's only 1 mortal wound they still get it off more easily than Rubrics
+1 to deny unlike Rubrics
Rubrics only have access to one set of spells like GK units

Superior combat prowess (and mind you, even in this area Grey Knights are still inefficient!) only matters if you can reliably make it into combat, which most of the codex simply can't.

Super easy access to reroll charges and deepstrike everywhere.

Their anti-tank firepower is almost non-existent or on woefully inefficient platforms

IG has way more efficient anti-tank available.

who cares about D3 Damage if you can't wound what you're attacking? And yes, that also applies to Psilencers, as much as someone on this board tried (and failed) to make an argument in their favour not too long ago.

24 * .666 * .333 * .5 * 2 = 5.3 // 113 points for a unit of Purgators and 2 CP (4 on the move)
It's 107 for 5 Rubrics what do you think they score?
9 * .833 * .5 * .666 = 2.5 //with VotLW AND prescience

Here are purgators without CP spend
24 * .666 * .333 * .333 * 2 = 3.5 //2.7 on the move

Purgators on the move are better than Rubrics with VotLW AND prescience for 6 extra points (against tanks).
At 24" Purgators on the move are twice as good at taking out 1 wound MEQ than Rubrics and equal when Rubrics are in RF.

You can't discount cultists and tzaangors then throw IG into the GK list

phillv85 wrote:
You can't discount cultists and tzaangors then throw IG into the GK list

This forum does. Every damn day.

I get my "whole army" in one book. Cultists and Tzaangors are "not" Thousand Sons. They're a conscripted element.
IG is a conscripted element. You just have to reach into a second book for it.

Why does one line differ from the other beyond the simple physical location of the rules?

Because IG are an independent force. You can't soup one side then say my side is crap because I don't think these guys in my codex should be here. That's some serious goalpost movement.

phillv85 wrote:
Because IG are an independent force. You can't soup one side then say my side is crap because I don't think these guys in my codex should be here. That's some serious goalpost movement.

That's a fair distinction, but not a useful one.

I sympathize with GK players that don't want to ally to make their army work, but the reality of it is that MOST of the top armies ally.

And that doesn't mean I think GK should get no buffs.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
S5 AP1 stormbolters vs S4 AP2 bolters with +1 to wound

You forgot to mention that the S5 AP1 bolters cost 2 CP for the unit, since it's a strategy it can only be used once per phase and that GK have no CP recursion methods so bolters can only have that statline 7 times at most.

Leo_the_Rat wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
S5 AP1 stormbolters vs S4 AP2 bolters with +1 to wound

You forgot to mention that the S5 AP1 bolters cost 2 CP for the unit, since it's a strategy it can only be used once per phase and that GK have no CP recursion methods so bolters can only have that statline 7 times at most.

I've acknowledge the CP cost here and in previous threads. GK will still double the shot output of Rubrics, which makes 2 CP slightly more sensible.

I don't quite understand the last part of your sentence though.

 Daedalus81 wrote:


Baby carriers might not be hideable, but there's a reason they're in almost every list multiple times.

Yep, it sucks to have less spells. But it's also pretty solid to have +1 to cast AND deny and to cast with any unit bar flyers and vehicles.

18 spells is a super misleading number. Almost no one is using 5/6 of the daemon spells - 4/6 for specialized builds.
None of the standard units have access to anything outside the TS discipline.
So they have an extra discipline with good spells - from a different army's list.

You couldn't use Terrifying Visions with Purge Soul?
Or Might of Heroes on a DK?
(through allies of course)

Infantry Squads. Oh those aren't GK? According to Dakka Tzaangors and Cultists aren't Thousand Sons.

GK have fight twice, deepstrike for infantry AND dreadnoughts, fight twice for dead character, and two strats that rubrics WISH they had.

Sure, when GK don't use allies.

S5 AP1 stormbolters vs S4 AP2 bolters with +1 to wound
Strike Squads can deepstrike without CP
GK units don't obliterate themselves on peril
And even if it's only 1 mortal wound they still get it off more easily than Rubrics
+1 to deny unlike Rubrics
Rubrics only have access to one set of spells like GK units

Super easy access to reroll charges and deepstrike everywhere.

IG has way more efficient anti-tank available.

24 * .666 * .333 * .5 * 2 = 5.3 // 113 points for a unit of Purgators and 2 CP
It's 107 for 5 Rubrics what do you think they score?
9 * .833 * .5 * .666 = 2.5 //with VotLW AND prescience

Here are purgators without CP spend
24 * .666 * .333 * .333 * 2 = 3.5

Way to not actually read my post buddy.

Did you not see the disclaimer "I find the best way to measure how bad a codex is to work out how well it can stand on its own without allied support"? It invalidates most of what you try to point out as mistakes on my part, because my points were made with no allies in mind. One might say that's not "realistic" but it's incredibly indicative of how bad Grey Knights are as a self-sufficient codex when they are completely reliant on other codices to bring tools they don't possess.

Of course, like Thousand Sons it too is carried by HQs. I rate Thousand Sons Daemon Princes higher though but realistically I concede that.

In-codex, Grey Knights have zero chaff. Refer to my second sentence. Thousand Sons have two varieties of in-codex chaff.

Doesn't change the fact that Thousand Sons have versatility that Grey Knights don't in terms of psychic powers. Thousand Sons can easily spit out absurd amounts of mortal wounds by comparison to Grey Knights in the psychic phase (the exception being against Daemons, but even then that is only at close range), and have far more utility powers.

Complaining that the standard units get one discipline that has at minimum two auto-take powers (Weaver and Glamour), one generally good power (Temporal), one decent power (Firestorm at WC7 is decent, was horrible at WC9) and one situation-dependent swingy power (Doombolt, amazing in some match-ups on a flying model, worthless in others) while the HQs get free access to the other two disciplines, one of which is one of the best disciplines in the game, and the other which has one auto-take power (Gaze) and two situation-dependent swingy powers (Flickering and Infernal). When your HQs are as good as Ahriman and Thousand Sons Daemon Princes, taking them to get those powers isn't a tax. Thousand Sons don't have to look at other codices to get the psychic combos you mention. Ergo, back to my original point that as a self-sufficient codex, Grey Knights are worse off than Thousand Sons in the psychic phase. I will note I'm probably being a bit unfair to their discipline as it's definitely better than mediocre. Also of note, those standard psykers can get other powers thanks to Chaos Familiar.

Why are you comparing Grey Knights in combat to Rubric Marines when my post wasn't making that comparison? I was pointing out that even if you try to rate Grey Knights as an army based on their combat stats, they still often fall short on a unit-to-unit basis. Saying they do combat better than Thousand Sons is like pointing out water is wet. It's a moot point that has nothing to do with my post. Also, re-rolling 9" charges, while nice, isn't quite reliable enough to shore up how incredibly difficult it is for Grey Knights to reach combat without getting demolished from afar. Custodes do it so much better it isn't even funny. As anyone who has played Grey Knights will tell you, one of their biggest problems is paying for melee stats that aren't that great (with a few exceptions) and that they will rarely get to put to good use.

Besides, more to the point, the Grey Knight fight twice stratagem is for infantry only. It's already been established that getting Grey Knight infantry into combat is very difficult against any type of decent opposition, because they are horrendous in the raw points to durability ratio. Dreadknights - the powerhouses - can't use this. Meanwhile, those cheap chaff Tzaangors that are more efficient in melee than a good chunk of the Grey Knight codex and get access to way more potential buffs to further super-charge their combat abilities, can be spammed unlike Grey Knights (you get 30 Tzaangors for the cost of 10 Strikes without upgrades) get that same fight twice stratagem but for 2CP instead of 3CP, and they are a lot more durable per point (the only time this isn't true - without including durability buffs like Sanctuary, Weaver, Glamour, etc - is when the PAGK are in cover and being hit by weapons with no AP). Really, just how good is Deep Striking Dreadnoughts if you can't Deep Strike the great Dreadnoughts like Leviathans and Contemptors? The "fight if you die" stratagem is great, obviously, but also reliant on getting into combat. Meanwhile, Thousand Sons can combo +2 to-wound and re-roll all failed hit and wounds rolls on Daemon Engines for 2CP and a low cost psychic power for devastating ranged efficiency, can combo +1 to-hit and +1 or +2 to-wound on almost any unit which applies for both shooting AND combat, can have absurdly huge bonuses to cast (+4) that Grey Knights can't match, get simple but nice ones like Killshot, get fight twice on units that are both more likely to actually get use out of it AND are more efficient damage dealers (while Hammerhand cancels out VotLW here, Tzaangors can also get +1 to-hit, +1 Strength and +1AP), etc.

I can see where you were going with Psybolt + Storm Bolters VS VotLW + Inferno Bolters, but did you not account for the +1 to-hit the latter can get from Prescience that the former cannot get in-codex? Psybolt costs 2CP to VotLW's 1CP as well. Also, when you chuck buffs like that on a unit, generally the bigger the unit, the better. Grey Knights have max unit sizes of 10, Rubric Marines have max unit sizes of 20. Not that I recommend doing it, but some swear by alpha striking 20-dustbin Rubric squads. The better comparison is the straight RF1 S4 AP2 vs RF2 S4 AP- from equivalent ten-man units; Grey Knights pull ahead against 4+/5+/6+/-, are equal against 3+, and worse against 2+ - not counting invulnerable saves. As I noted in my post, Rubrics only pull ahead of Strikes if you factor in support, which is important to note because Thousand Sons get more support abilities to choose from.

Yeah, in-built Deep Strike is very nice and never a downside.
If you're not saving a CP and Gaze of Fate for Perils on Rubric squads, you're not playing Thousand Sons correctly.
Rubrics can choose from 18 powers actually, it just costs 1CP. Depends on whether you need it though.
Rubrics can cast from 24" away, Grey Knight Smite is 12". Of course, you want to Deep Strike within 12" usually...which is what the Big FAQ doesn't help.
Rubrics are also far more durable per point and, as they don't pay for melee weapons they likely won't get to use, using them to camp objectives in cover isn't a comparatively terrible idea because of how absurdly difficult they are to shift by comparison to PAGK.
Mind you, that all assumes you're actually using Rubrics. Thousand Sons get Tzaangors and Cultists - two great units - as alternate Troops choices. Grey Knights only get Strike Squads and Terminator Squads as Troops choices, and as anyone will tell you, PAGK are horrendous in 8th Edition and Terminators don't fare much better. For getting as much CP as possible, Thousand Sons have a massive edge over Grey Knights thanks to having cheap, efficient Troops.

The same is true for Thousand Sons, but more specific. A Mutalith can easily give re-roll charges to any Tzeentch unit, or you can use Gaze of Fate plus a CP, and Tzaangors can cheaply give themselves +1 to their charge rolls. Besides, did you not see the Big FAQ? As I noted prior, re-rolling a 9" charge on 2D6 isn't as reliable as Grey Knights really need it to be.

Wait, what? Your response to my claim that Grey Knights have almost non-existent or universally inefficient anti-tank firepower is that "IG has way more efficient anti-tank available"? Wow. I would have never figured that out. Good job on that scoop! Snarkiness aside, how does that help the Grey Knight faction to stand on its own two feet? Meanwhile, Thousand Sons get; Predators, Defilers and Forgefiends (become super scary with right support combos as mentioned above, not great otherwise though), etc. Better by far. If we include the Forge World units each respective faction can utilize on its own, Grey Knights get; an overpriced (thank Chapter Approved) Razorback that is stuck with a weapon that isn't good against tanks, a Venerable Dreadnought equivalent with a good gun that is decent against tanks, a Land Raider Redeemer which is strictly not a vehicle killer, and the Thunderhawk Gunship which got turbo-nerfed (again, thank Chapter Approved). Meanwhile, Thousand Sons get; Leviathans, Deredeos, Contemptors, (Contemptor) Mortis', Sicarans, Sicaran Venators, Vindicator Laser Destroyers, Fire Raptors (still efficient in terms of raw damage surprisingly enough, just not durability) and Decimators.

Why are you comparing Purgators to Rubric Marines? Did I say Rubric Marines were the Thousand Sons' answer to anti-tank?
How about you make the comparison the Games Workshop rules designers should have made by comparing Purgators to Predators or, heck, Devastators from Loyalist chapters or Havocs from Heretic chapters?
Now, tell me how those 24" ranged Heavy weapons fill the ranged anti-tank role effectively for Grey Knights? We both know the answer, but if you're actually going to try and argue the way you appear to be leaning towards, I want popcorn.

Something I want to expand on here before I finish up this post is CP generation. Both armies get high value out of their stratagems, with Thousand Sons generally having the better and cheaper stratagems; both have "fight twice", the Thousand Sons' one is specific to Tzaangors but 1CP less (which is fine because buffed Tzaangors are better in combat than almost anything Grey Knights have), they have a universal +1 to-wound rolls stratagem for 1CP whereas Grey Knights get a +1 Strength (worse than +1 to-wound in many cases) and +1 AP (good) for 2CP (eh), etc. Grey Knights don't have a good way to generate CP cheaply without looking to allies; the cheapest Grey Knight battalion is 545 points (2xBrotherhood Champions, 3x5 Strike Squads), whereas the cheapest Thousand Sons battalion is 328 points (2xSorcerers, 3x10 Cultists). Grey Knights also have no innate form of recuperating CP, whereas Thousand Sons get a very nice relic for doing just that. With Allies, Guard obviously provide the cheapest Battalion in the game, but who runs Guard to supplement Grey Knights and not the other way around?

Ultimately, as I stated earlier, if you judge a codex on its own merits then Grey Knights are absolutely the worst by far, no matter what some salty Thousand Sons players might believe. If you think about how much an army needs allies, Grey Knights need it much more than anyone else.

Caederes wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:


Baby carriers might not be hideable, but there's a reason they're in almost every list multiple times.

Yep, it sucks to have less spells. But it's also pretty solid to have +1 to cast AND deny and to cast with any unit bar flyers and vehicles.

18 spells is a super misleading number. Almost no one is using 5/6 of the daemon spells - 4/6 for specialized builds.
None of the standard units have access to anything outside the TS discipline.
So they have an extra discipline with good spells - from a different army's list.

You couldn't use Terrifying Visions with Purge Soul?
Or Might of Heroes on a DK?
(through allies of course)

Infantry Squads. Oh those aren't GK? According to Dakka Tzaangors and Cultists aren't Thousand Sons.

GK have fight twice, deepstrike for infantry AND dreadnoughts, fight twice for dead character, and two strats that rubrics WISH they had.

Sure, when GK don't use allies.

S5 AP1 stormbolters vs S4 AP2 bolters with +1 to wound
Strike Squads can deepstrike without CP
GK units don't obliterate themselves on peril
And even if it's only 1 mortal wound they still get it off more easily than Rubrics
+1 to deny unlike Rubrics
Rubrics only have access to one set of spells like GK units

Super easy access to reroll charges and deepstrike everywhere.

IG has way more efficient anti-tank available.

24 * .666 * .333 * .5 * 2 = 5.3 // 113 points for a unit of Purgators and 2 CP
It's 107 for 5 Rubrics what do you think they score?
9 * .833 * .5 * .666 = 2.5 //with VotLW AND prescience

Here are purgators without CP spend
24 * .666 * .333 * .333 * 2 = 3.5

Way to not actually read my post buddy.

Did you not see the disclaimer "I find the best way to measure how bad a codex is to work out how well it can stand on its own without allied support"? It invalidates most of what you try to point out as mistakes on my part, because my points were made with no allies in mind. One might say that's not "realistic" but it's incredibly indicative of how bad Grey Knights are as a self-sufficient codex when they are completely reliant on other codices to bring tools they don't possess.

Of course, like Thousand Sons it too is carried by HQs. I rate Thousand Sons Daemon Princes higher though but realistically I concede that.

In-codex, Grey Knights have zero chaff. Refer to my second sentence. Thousand Sons have two varieties of in-codex chaff.

Doesn't change the fact that Thousand Sons have versatility that Grey Knights don't in terms of psychic powers. Thousand Sons can easily spit out absurd amounts of mortal wounds by comparison to Grey Knights in the psychic phase (the exception being against Daemons, but even then that is only at close range), and have far more utility powers.

Complaining that the standard units get one discipline that has at minimum two auto-take powers (Weaver and Glamour), one generally good power (Temporal), one decent power (Firestorm at WC7 is decent, was horrible at WC9) and one situation-dependent swingy power (Doombolt, amazing in some match-ups on a flying model, worthless in others) while the HQs get free access to the other two disciplines, one of which is one of the best disciplines in the game, and the other which has one auto-take power (Gaze) and two situation-dependent swingy powers (Flickering and Infernal). When your HQs are as good as Ahriman and Thousand Sons Daemon Princes, taking them to get those powers isn't a tax. Thousand Sons don't have to look at other codices to get the psychic combos you mention. Ergo, back to my original point that as a self-sufficient codex, Grey Knights are worse off than Thousand Sons in the psychic phase. I will note I'm probably being a bit unfair to their discipline as it's definitely better than mediocre. Also of note, those standard psykers can get other powers thanks to Chaos Familiar.

Why are you comparing Grey Knights in combat to Rubric Marines when my post wasn't making that comparison? I was pointing out that even if you try to rate Grey Knights as an army based on their combat stats, they still often fall short on a unit-to-unit basis. Saying they do combat better than Thousand Sons is like pointing out water is wet. It's a moot point that has nothing to do with my post. Also, re-rolling 9" charges, while nice, isn't quite reliable enough to shore up how incredibly difficult it is for Grey Knights to reach combat without getting demolished from afar. Custodes do it so much better it isn't even funny. As anyone who has played Grey Knights will tell you, one of their biggest problems is paying for melee stats that aren't that great (with a few exceptions) and that they will rarely get to put to good use.

Besides, more to the point, the Grey Knight fight twice stratagem is for infantry only. It's already been established that getting Grey Knight infantry into combat is very difficult against any type of decent opposition, because they are horrendous in the raw points to durability ratio. Dreadknights - the powerhouses - can't use this. Meanwhile, those cheap chaff Tzaangors that are more efficient in melee than a good chunk of the Grey Knight codex and get access to way more potential buffs to further super-charge their combat abilities, can be spammed unlike Grey Knights (you get 30 Tzaangors for the cost of 10 Strikes without upgrades) get that same fight twice stratagem but for 2CP instead of 3CP, and they are a lot more durable per point (the only time this isn't true - without including durability buffs like Sanctuary, Weaver, Glamour, etc - is when the PAGK are in cover and being hit by weapons with no AP). Really, just how good is Deep Striking Dreadnoughts if you can't Deep Strike the great Dreadnoughts like Leviathans and Contemptors? The "fight if you die" stratagem is great, obviously, but also reliant on getting into combat. Meanwhile, Thousand Sons can combo +2 to-wound and re-roll all failed hit and wounds rolls on Daemon Engines for 2CP and a low cost psychic power for devastating ranged efficiency, can combo +1 to-hit and +1 or +2 to-wound on almost any unit which applies for both shooting AND combat, can have absurdly huge bonuses to cast (+4) that Grey Knights can't match, get simple but nice ones like Killshot, get fight twice on units that are both more likely to actually get use out of it AND are more efficient damage dealers (while Hammerhand cancels out VotLW here, Tzaangors can also get +1 to-hit, +1 Strength and +1AP), etc.

I can see where you were going with Psybolt + Storm Bolters VS VotLW + Inferno Bolters, but did you not account for the +1 to-hit the latter can get from Prescience that the former cannot get in-codex? Psybolt costs 2CP to VotLW's 1CP as well. Also, when you chuck buffs like that on a unit, generally the bigger the unit, the better. Grey Knights have max unit sizes of 10, Rubric Marines have max unit sizes of 20. Not that I recommend doing it, but some swear by alpha striking 20-dustbin Rubric squads. The better comparison is the straight RF1 S4 AP2 vs RF2 S4 AP- from equivalent ten-man units; Grey Knights pull ahead against 4+/5+/6+/-, are equal against 3+, and worse against 2+ - not counting invulnerable saves. As I noted in my post, Rubrics only pull ahead of Strikes if you factor in support, which is important to note because Thousand Sons get more support abilities to choose from.

Yeah, in-built Deep Strike is very nice and never a downside.
If you're not saving a CP and Gaze of Fate for Perils on Rubric squads, you're not playing Thousand Sons correctly.
Rubrics can choose from 18 powers actually, it just costs 1CP. Depends on whether you need it though.
Rubrics can cast from 24" away, Grey Knight Smite is 12". Of course, you want to Deep Strike within 12" usually...which is what the Big FAQ doesn't help.
Rubrics are also far more durable per point and, as they don't pay for melee weapons they likely won't get to use, using them to camp objectives in cover isn't a comparatively terrible idea because of how absurdly difficult they are to shift by comparison to PAGK.
Mind you, that all assumes you're actually using Rubrics. Thousand Sons get Tzaangors and Cultists - two great units - as alternate Troops choices. Grey Knights only get Strike Squads and Terminator Squads as Troops choices, and as anyone will tell you, PAGK are horrendous in 8th Edition and Terminators don't fare much better. For getting as much CP as possible, Thousand Sons have a massive edge over Grey Knights thanks to having cheap, efficient Troops.

The same is true for Thousand Sons, but more specific. A Mutalith can easily give re-roll charges to any Tzeentch unit, or you can use Gaze of Fate plus a CP, and Tzaangors can cheaply give themselves +1 to their charge rolls. Besides, did you not see the Big FAQ? As I noted prior, re-rolling a 9" charge on 2D6 isn't as reliable as Grey Knights really need it to be.

Wait, what? Your response to my claim that Grey Knights have almost non-existent or universally inefficient anti-tank firepower is that "IG has way more efficient anti-tank available"? Wow. I would have never figured that out. Good job on that scoop! Snarkiness aside, how does that help the Grey Knight faction to stand on its own two feet? Meanwhile, Thousand Sons get; Predators, Defilers and Forgefiends (become super scary with right support combos as mentioned above, not great otherwise though), etc. Better by far. If we include the Forge World units each respective faction can utilize on its own, Grey Knights get; an overpriced (thank Chapter Approved) Razorback that is stuck with a weapon that isn't good against tanks, a Venerable Dreadnought equivalent with a good gun that is decent against tanks, a Land Raider Redeemer which is strictly not a vehicle killer, and the Thunderhawk Gunship which got turbo-nerfed (again, thank Chapter Approved). Meanwhile, Thousand Sons get; Leviathans, Deredeos, Contemptors, (Contemptor) Mortis', Sicarans, Sicaran Venators, Vindicator Laser Destroyers, Fire Raptors (still efficient in terms of raw damage surprisingly enough, just not durability) and Decimators.

Why are you comparing Purgators to Rubric Marines? Did I say Rubric Marines were the Thousand Sons' answer to anti-tank?
How about you make the comparison the Games Workshop rules designers should have made by comparing Purgators to Predators or, heck, Devastators from Loyalist chapters or Havocs from Heretic chapters?
Now, tell me how those 24" ranged Heavy weapons fill the ranged anti-tank role effectively for Grey Knights? We both know the answer, but if you're actually going to try and argue the way you appear to be leaning towards, I want popcorn.

Ultimately, as I stated earlier, if you judge a codex on its own merits then Grey Knights are absolutely the worst by far, no matter what some salty Thousand Sons players might believe. If you think about how much an army needs allies, Grey Knights need it much more than anyone else.

BTW, I never said that Thousand Sons were worse than Grey Knights. The vote only allows one, which I picked TS because I knew GK were going to get a lot of votes. I personally said that I think they are tied for the worst codex. If TS is better than GK, it ain't by much. The best argument you have for GK really is the no flak units without allies (I believe this whole discussion is codex alone). Cheap screens are a must in any even semi-competitive list. So, ok GK are the worst book, but TS is right behind you. I am sure you you played TS a couple of times you would be just as frustrated as you are with your GK.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, who is voting for Imperial Guard? They are tailor made for 8th with cheap troops/filler units (CP spam), high model count (screen/point efficiency), shooting over close combat, including non-LOS shooting, T8 vehicles, and cheap deep-strike plasma. You could increase the cost of every unit is the IG codex by 20% and it still would be at least mid-tier.

I feel like there are two separate issues: 1), "everything sucks" and 2), "theres enough in here to play a competitive army but the way most people want to play the army sucks".

You see a lot of salty Tson, Nids, Tau, and Space Marine players on the forums because those armies are all about the same competitive tier as Blood Angels, Admech, and Necrons but the competitive units available to the army are not the ones people actually want to use.

If you're a blood angels player, and you want to take your army to events, sure, you've got to give up your actual space marine troops and run scouts, and you've got to run some Guard bodies, but at least the Stuff That Does The Work in your mid-tier army is going to be guys smacking things with swords and hammers with jump packs on their backs. So you're going to be less happy than the guy running thousand sons who does just as well but his army has only one single actual space marine in it, and nothing but daemon princes and cultists besides that.

 xeen wrote:


BTW, I never said that Thousand Sons were worse than Grey Knights. The vote only allows one, which I picked TS because I knew GK were going to get a lot of votes. I personally said that I think they are tied for the worst codex. If TS is better than GK, it ain't by much. The best argument you have for GK really is the no flak units without allies (I believe this whole discussion is codex alone). Cheap screens are a must in any even semi-competitive list. So, ok GK are the worst book, but TS is right behind you. I am sure you you played TS a couple of times you would be just as frustrated as you are with your GK.

I've played both. Thousand Sons are so much better off for all the reasons I stated and more. Thousand Sons are becoming more popular post Big FAQ because of what they can offer competitive Chaos armies, recently being part of the list that finished 2nd at Adepticon. Grey Knights, meanwhile, have been pretty much entirely supplanted by Custodes and Blood Angels at the top tables in the role they used to fill, and that FAQ hasn't helped things at all. For those that want to quote life-to-date 8th Edition tournament results at me because I brought up Adepticon, remember that the Thousand Sons codex wasn't around until February, whereas the Grey Knight codex was released all the way back in August. The LVO was the first major tournament Thousand Sons were available for. This comment is of course for those that like raw data. If you just want proper discussion on why Thousand Sons are a much better realized codex than Grey Knights, read my previous post.

As an aside, I didn't so much mean to single you out, but more try to stem the Thousand Sons and Grey Knight comparisons. One has the basic tools it needs to cover all its bases in a competitive game without having to rely on Allies. The other does not.

Also...

the_scotsman wrote:
I feel like there are two separate issues: 1), "everything sucks" and 2), "theres enough in here to play a competitive army but the way most people want to play the army sucks".

You see a lot of salty Tson, Nids, Tau, and Space Marine players on the forums because those armies are all about the same competitive tier as Blood Angels, Admech, and Necrons but the competitive units available to the army are not the ones people actually want to use.

If you're a blood angels player, and you want to take your army to events, sure, you've got to give up your actual space marine troops and run scouts, and you've got to run some Guard bodies, but at least the Stuff That Does The Work in your mid-tier army is going to be guys smacking things with swords and hammers with jump packs on their backs. So you're going to be less happy than the guy running thousand sons who does just as well but his army has only one single actual space marine in it, and nothing but daemon princes and cultists besides that.

This is spot on.

I imagine those who voted Guard did so because they're fed up of them and see them ruining balance as opposed to considering them ineffective as an army. But perhaps not, I've seen some strange things here.

Yeah. I meant to add that (and I think the poll results are obvious evidence in and of themselves) we're in a somewhat unique situation where only one codex army exists in category 1 (everything sucks).

Every other army has at least some part of a competitive build available, such that a player at an even slightly less competitive event or meta can bring something to the table. The problem THEN shifts to "why do some of these armies not play like they should/do in the fluff". Getting every army out of Category 1 is the first priority, which is why they should get every codex out, fix GK, and take a look at the armies holistically.

If you asked me to rank which armies need balance attention in what order, I'd probably rank it.

1. GK

2. DA
3. SM
4. Tsons
5. CSM
6. Daemons

Then admech, nids, Tau etc which have similar 'identity crisis' problems but on a somewhat smaller scale, typically with more like 1-2 really iconic units that are just terrible than a whole bunch with a few powerful but unfluffy builds/units.

Threads like this are made for inviting frustrated players into a pity party.

The truth is 8th edition has done *some* good work avoiding pure balancing. Objective based games (such as Maelstrom) do a lot to make the game into more than just a question of raw killing power per point. For better or for worse, officially sanctioned soup has also blurred the lines between what is good and bad, as most codices have access to allies which can mitigate their weaknesses. This can make it harder to tell which codices are the weakest. The simple fact is that fewer and fewer players play dedicated lists.

pulling the focus away from individual codices does make me sad, as I really enjoy a cohesive list dedicated to a single faction. I feel that it makes a more engaging narrative to say, I'm pitting my Emperor's Children warband against your Catachans. But these days its usually soup v soup which is kind of lame when explaining the armies. Of course casual and competitive are two different beasts!

 xeen wrote:

Also, who is voting for Imperial Guard? They are tailor made for 8th with cheap troops/filler units (CP spam), high model count (screen/point efficiency), shooting over close combat, including non-LOS shooting, T8 vehicles, and cheap deep-strike plasma. You could increase the cost of every unit is the IG codex by 20% and it still would be at least mid-tier.

The OP just ask which was the worst codex, so obviously people who just don't like IG. I'm sure several SM votes were for the studio support they're given or that the majority of the Eldar votes were for being "too good". I've never been particularly taken with the WWI/WWII in space styling myself but I threw in against Daemons because I lost them from my army so GW could directly port in a fantasy army into 40k with no alterations.