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I won't engage ob GK debates after this post, because I know where this leads.

Caederes wrote:

Did you not see the disclaimer "I find the best way to measure how bad a codex is to work out how well it can stand on its own without allied support"? It invalidates most of what you try to point out as mistakes on my part, because my points were made with no allies in mind. One might say that's not "realistic" but it's incredibly indicative of how bad Grey Knights are as a self-sufficient codex when they are completely reliant on other codices to bring tools they don't possess.

Sure and it's a fair point, but you don't exactly see any other space marines running mono and doing fantastically, either (aside from the re-emergence of RG and asscans at the GT oddly enough...which makes sense in a way since rule of 3 doesn't govern them, but also made the table safer for them).

In-codex, Grey Knights have zero chaff. Refer to my second sentence. Thousand Sons have two varieties of in-codex chaff.

Yes, I know, but why does the physical location of your chaff change anything? IS are no more out of place with GK than Tzaangors are with TS.

Doesn't change the fact that Thousand Sons have versatility that Grey Knights don't in terms of psychic powers. Thousand Sons can easily spit out absurd amounts of mortal wounds by comparison to Grey Knights in the psychic phase (the exception being against Daemons, but even then that is only at close range), and have far more utility powers.

Very much agree. I absolutely love my psychic army's flexibility.

Complaining that the standard units get one discipline that has at minimum two auto-take powers (Weaver and Glamour), one generally good power (Temporal), one decent power (Firestorm at WC7 is decent, was horrible at WC9) and one situation-dependent swingy power (Doombolt, amazing in some match-ups on a flying model, worthless in others) while the HQs get free access to the other two disciplines, one of which is one of the best disciplines in the game, and the other which has one auto-take power (Gaze) and two situation-dependent swingy powers (Flickering and Infernal). When your HQs are as good as Ahriman and Thousand Sons Daemon Princes, taking them to get those powers isn't a tax. Thousand Sons don't have to look at other codices to get the psychic combos you mention. Ergo, back to my original point that as a self-sufficient codex, Grey Knights are worse off than Thousand Sons in the psychic phase. I will note I'm probably being a bit unfair to their discipline as it's definitely better than mediocre. Also of note, those standard psykers can get other powers thanks to Chaos Familiar.

I'm not complaining about it. I'm making a distinction. TS have "out of codex powers" in codex. GK can grab out of codex powers, too. Would I like to see GK get more disciplines? Yea that'd be pretty useful, I think.

Why are you comparing Grey Knights in combat to Rubric Marines when my post wasn't making that comparison? I was pointing out that even if you try to rate Grey Knights as an army based on their combat stats, they still often fall short on a unit-to-unit basis. Saying they do combat better than Thousand Sons is like pointing out water is wet. It's a moot point that has nothing to do with my post. Also, re-rolling 9" charges, while nice, isn't quite reliable enough to shore up how incredibly difficult it is for Grey Knights to reach combat without getting demolished from afar. Custodes do it so much better it isn't even funny. As anyone who has played Grey Knights will tell you, one of their biggest problems is paying for melee stats that aren't that great (with a few exceptions) and that they will rarely get to put to good use.

It was an illustrative point about D3 damage being useful while also still being as effective as rubrics against MEQ.

Besides, more to the point, the Grey Knight fight twice stratagem is for infantry only. It's already been established that getting Grey Knight infantry into combat is very difficult against any type of decent opposition, because they are horrendous in the raw points to durability ratio. Dreadknights - the powerhouses - can't use this. Meanwhile, those cheap chaff Tzaangors that are more efficient in melee than a good chunk of the Grey Knight codex and get access to way more potential buffs to further super-charge their combat abilities, can be spammed unlike Grey Knights (you get 30 Tzaangors for the cost of 10 Strikes without upgrades) get that same fight twice stratagem but for 2CP instead of 3CP, and they are a lot more durable per point (the only time this isn't true - without including durability buffs like Sanctuary, Weaver, Glamour, etc - is when the PAGK are in cover and being hit by weapons with no AP).

10 Strikes for 30 Tzaangors.
Deepstrike. Smite for 3. SBs for 8.9. Melee for 7. That's 19 dead (133 points). Swinging back they kill 3.7 (77 points). If the Tzaangors got the drop on you - bad news, sure. Which is why IG need to be present. Same rule applies to Rubrics - have something to make sure they hit before they get hit.

Yes Tzaangors can get buffed. But then Strikes with Draigo and Psybolts could kill half that unit with just storm bolters.

Really, just how good is Deep Striking Dreadnoughts if you can't Deep Strike the great Dreadnoughts like Leviathans and Contemptors?

Only as good as you deem it. Deeptriking a dreadnought with a 6+++ that can give itself a 5++ on top of that is not something to be scoffed at.

Meanwhile, Thousand Sons can combo +2 to-wound and re-roll all failed hit and wounds rolls on Daemon Engines for 2CP and a low cost psychic power for devastating ranged efficiency, can combo +1 to-hit and +1 or +2 to-wound on almost any unit which applies for both shooting AND combat, can have absurdly huge bonuses to cast (+4) that Grey Knights can't match, get simple but nice ones like Killshot, get fight twice on units that are both more likely to actually get use out of it AND are more efficient damage dealers (while Hammerhand cancels out VotLW here, Tzaangors can also get +1 to-hit, +1 Strength and +1AP), etc.

That's a ton of CP and support. If I spend 100 to 300 to 450 points on permanently buffing a 150-250 point unit then you can hardly call that unit exceedingly efficient without calculating what went into making it good.

I can see where you were going with Psybolt + Storm Bolters VS VotLW + Inferno Bolters, but did you not account for the +1 to-hit the latter can get from Prescience that the former cannot get in-codex? Psybolt costs 2CP to VotLW's 1CP as well. Also, when you chuck buffs like that on a unit, generally the bigger the unit, the better. Grey Knights have max unit sizes of 10, Rubric Marines have max unit sizes of 20. Not that I recommend doing it, but some swear by alpha striking 20-dustbin Rubric squads. The better comparison is the straight RF1 S4 AP2 vs RF2 S4 AP- from equivalent ten-man units; Grey Knights pull ahead against 4+/5+/6+/-, are equal against 3+, and worse against 2+ - not counting invulnerable saves. As I noted in my post, Rubrics only pull ahead of Strikes if you factor in support, which is important to note because Thousand Sons get more support abilities to choose from.

Yup fair. I can drop a 20 man in someone's face and keep them on the table with CP. Possibly hurt a lot of stuff doing so, but that's a 4 CP (pass morale, deepstrike or DMC, and VotLW), 400+ points, plus points for a caster to get them prescience reliably. And then more to make sure they can have glamour on and have reroll 1s. All to kill about 30 guardsmen.

Alternatively 20 Strikes with one using Psybolts kills the same number of IG - maybe a bit less and has a lot less to worry about in terms of morale and will get much better with support buffs. Sure I could off a predator with those Rubrics, but it's unlikely anyone is going to let me deepstrike in RF range of one.

If you're not saving a CP and Gaze of Fate for Perils on Rubric squads, you're not playing Thousand Sons correctly.

Sure, because unlike GK i'll blow my entire unit to smithereens without it.

Rubrics can cast from 24" away, Grey Knight Smite is 12". Of course, you want to Deep Strike within 12" usually...which is what the Big FAQ doesn't help.

You can double your range, but that's a lot of points for 1 MW. It does suck that all your smites are gak or super short range on purifiers.

Rubrics are also far more durable per point and, as they don't pay for melee weapons they likely won't get to use, using them to camp objectives in cover isn't a comparatively terrible idea because of how absurdly difficult they are to shift by comparison to PAGK.
Mind you, that all assumes you're actually using Rubrics. Thousand Sons get Tzaangors and Cultists - two great units - as alternate Troops choices. Grey Knights only get Strike Squads and Terminator Squads as Troops choices, and as anyone will tell you, PAGK are horrendous in 8th Edition and Terminators don't fare much better. For getting as much CP as possible, Thousand Sons have a massive edge over Grey Knights thanks to having cheap, efficient Troops.

Yup that's fair.

The same is true for Thousand Sons, but more specific. A Mutalith can easily give re-roll charges to any Tzeentch unit, or you can use Gaze of Fate plus a CP, and Tzaangors can cheaply give themselves +1 to their charge rolls. Besides, did you not see the Big FAQ? As I noted prior, re-rolling a 9" charge on 2D6 isn't as reliable as Grey Knights really need it to be.

150 points or a spell plus a CP for a single unit as opposed to a bubble. It forces Tzaangors into 30 model units with no morale. Those units are on table with Tzaangors are in the cloud vulnerable to getting killed reducing the chance of Mutalith making it in range and getting the ability off. Otherwise you better hope no perils pop up the turn the Tzaangors drop.

Grey Knight faction to stand on its own two feet? Meanwhile, Thousand Sons get; Predators, Defilers and Forgefiends (become super scary with right support combos as mentioned above, not great otherwise though), etc. Better by far. If we include the Forge World units each respective faction can utilize on its own, Grey Knights get; an overpriced (thank Chapter Approved) Razorback that is stuck with a weapon that isn't good against tanks, a Venerable Dreadnought equivalent with a good gun that is decent against tanks, a Land Raider Redeemer which is strictly not a vehicle killer, and the Thunderhawk Gunship which got turbo-nerfed (again, thank Chapter Approved). Meanwhile, Thousand Sons get; Leviathans, Deredeos, Contemptors, (Contemptor) Mortis', Sicarans, Sicaran Venators, Vindicator Laser Destroyers, Fire Raptors (still efficient in terms of raw damage surprisingly enough, just not durability) and Decimators.

Yea, it's gakky. I get that. It's not perfect, but at the same time there won't be anything coming to GK that changes that dynamic. They'll get some buffs and maybe draw in a couple new dreadnoughts, but they'll never get chaff or possibly other tanks.

Why are you comparing Purgators to Rubric Marines? Did I say Rubric Marines were the Thousand Sons' answer to anti-tank?
How about you make the comparison the Games Workshop rules designers should have made by comparing Purgators to Predators or, heck, Devastators from Loyalist chapters or Havocs from Heretic chapters?
Now, tell me how those 24" ranged Heavy weapons fill the ranged anti-tank role effectively for Grey Knights? We both know the answer, but if you're actually going to try and argue the way you appear to be leaning towards, I want popcorn.

The D3 wounds thing. It's a pretty stark comparison if you ask me. I don't think they fill the anti-tank role, but it's not bare bones, either. The psycannon should be D2 instead.

Something I want to expand on here before I finish up this post is CP generation. Both armies get high value out of their stratagems, with Thousand Sons generally having the better and cheaper stratagems; both have "fight twice", the Thousand Sons' one is specific to Tzaangors but 1CP less (which is fine because buffed Tzaangors are better in combat than almost anything Grey Knights have), they have a universal +1 to-wound rolls stratagem for 1CP whereas Grey Knights get a +1 Strength (worse than +1 to-wound in many cases) and +1 AP (good) for 2CP (eh), etc. Grey Knights don't have a good way to generate CP cheaply without looking to allies; the cheapest Grey Knight battalion is 545 points (2xBrotherhood Champions, 3x5 Strike Squads), whereas the cheapest Thousand Sons battalion is 328 points (2xSorcerers, 3x10 Cultists). Grey Knights also have no innate form of recuperating CP, whereas Thousand Sons get a very nice relic for doing just that. With Allies, Guard obviously provide the cheapest Battalion in the game, but who runs Guard to supplement Grey Knights and not the other way around?

Yup it sucks, I know. It would be killer if the Prometheus' command relay was -1CP all of the time.

Ultimately, as I stated earlier, if you judge a codex on its own merits then Grey Knights are absolutely the worst by far, no matter what some salty Thousand Sons players might believe. If you think about how much an army needs allies, Grey Knights need it much more than anyone else.

I'm not salty about TS. I very much love my codex. I just never see anyone talk about things GK do well and I think that's bad for the community and bad for the army if you ever want it to see the light of day.

Grey Knights should never have been unmerged from Inquisition. Inquisition elements inside the Grey Knight force is one of the things that made them flexible in 5th edition.

Inquisitors and their Henchmen squads gave Grey Knights some cheaper units, as well as interesting Chaff that they could play with. Inquisition and Assassins should never have been fractured from the Grey Knight book. As a stand alone codex GK would have been much stronger with access to cheap Inquisitors, henchmen squad chaff, and trouble shooting assassins. Splitting it did nothing but make all 3 worse.

Skaorn wrote:


The OP just ask which was the worst codex, so obviously people who just don't like IG. I'm sure several SM votes were for the studio support they're given or that the majority of the Eldar votes were for being "too good".

That's mostly the same reason why GK got so many votes - in my opinion. All people see is how GK is the worst army ever in every single post and that informs their decision. Most GK players are more than happy to ferment this outlook. Any kind of positive discussion of the army is pig piled, brutally - often under the premise that people who don't play the army can't understand it. Yet, very hypocritically, they'll gladly accept negative opinions from people who don't play the army and there is no way that the vast majority of these votes have an intimate understanding of the army.

 akaean wrote:
As a stand alone codex GK would have been much stronger with access to cheap Inquisitors, henchmen squad chaff, and trouble shooting assassins. Splitting it did nothing but make all 3 worse.

To be fair the damage was done to the inquisition when they were crowbarred into the 5e GK codex as 'also rans' . You have to go back to 3e to get the stormtroopers as proper chaff units to the elite GK, before GW reinvented them as regular combat-squadding, rhino-embarking, and they shall know some fear silver marines.
Nobody takes non-named inquisitors in 8th. Nobody takes henchmen except to fill out a detachment for the inquisitor.

I think if GW were going to merge anything in 8th the GK would fit with going back to their shadowy psychic anti-daemon roots a little more as part of a Talons of the Emperor codex. They've been 'marined' out too much to be the elite backup to an inquisitional force anymore.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Most GK players are more than happy to ferment this outlook.

Well there should perhaps be a rule against voting for / talking down your own armies in these kinds of threads...

I almost voted Mechanicus, but they contribute more than GK in a soup format, so i voted GK.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Skaorn wrote:


The OP just ask which was the worst codex, so obviously people who just don't like IG. I'm sure several SM votes were for the studio support they're given or that the majority of the Eldar votes were for being "too good".

That's mostly the same reason why GK got so many votes - in my opinion. All people see is how GK is the worst army ever in every single post and that informs their decision. Most GK players are more than happy to ferment this outlook. Any kind of positive discussion of the army is pig piled, brutally - often under the premise that people who don't play the army can't understand it. Yet, very hypocritically, they'll gladly accept negative opinions from people who don't play the army and there is no way that the vast majority of these votes have an intimate understanding of the army.

This is a giant fallacy.

Just because you say "Grey Knights are good," or "Purifiers are good" doesn't make the discussion "positive." Delusion doesn't make you the champion you think it does. News flash: People who run GK have a more intimate understanding of the army than armchair intellectuals who make statements like 10 purifiers in a rhino is the unbeatable secret GK strategy.

It is *well known* how to run GK in a competitive setting, as a staple on force to Imperium Soup, or leveraging an all-or-nothing alpha strike (although, with the beta changes this is not possible in tournaments anymore). If you dropped "Best in Faction" awards at ITC, Grey Knights would largely dissipate.

 Marmatag wrote:

This is a giant fallacy.

Just because you say "Grey Knights are good," or "Purifiers are good" doesn't make the discussion "positive." Delusion doesn't make you the champion you think it does. News flash: People who run GK have a more intimate understanding of the army than armchair intellectuals who make statements like 10 purifiers in a rhino is the unbeatable secret GK strategy.

It is *well known* how to run GK in a competitive setting, as a staple on force to Imperium Soup, or leveraging an all-or-nothing alpha strike (although, with the beta changes this is not possible in tournaments anymore). If you dropped "Best in Faction" awards at ITC, Grey Knights would largely dissipate.

Case in point. Here comes Marmatag to twist my statements put words in my mouth. You'll gladly scoop up those uninformed negative opinions though. Nom nom nom.

And with that I'm out. Enjoy your pity party where no one disagrees with you.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

This is a giant fallacy.

Just because you say "Grey Knights are good," or "Purifiers are good" doesn't make the discussion "positive." Delusion doesn't make you the champion you think it does. News flash: People who run GK have a more intimate understanding of the army than armchair intellectuals who make statements like 10 purifiers in a rhino is the unbeatable secret GK strategy.

It is *well known* how to run GK in a competitive setting, as a staple on force to Imperium Soup, or leveraging an all-or-nothing alpha strike (although, with the beta changes this is not possible in tournaments anymore). If you dropped "Best in Faction" awards at ITC, Grey Knights would largely dissipate.

Case in point. Here comes Marmatag to twist my statements put words in my mouth. You'll gladly scoop up those uninformed negative opinions though. Nom nom nom.

And with that I'm out. Enjoy your pity party where no one disagrees with you.

It's pretty evident from the poll that the overwhelming majority agree with me.

GK are bad because they are more-marine marines. And then marine schtick fails hard in 8th. Their few extra smites aren't going to save them from contender lists.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

I'm not salty about TS. I very much love my codex. I just never see anyone talk about things GK do well and I think that's bad for the community and bad for the army if you ever want it to see the light of day.

Oh here's the REAL part of the issue, here. It isn't that GK do much well (because anything they're doing you can get elsewhere thanks to Biker Custodes > Grandmaster Dreadknights), but you want to be Positive Pete and ignore the balancing issues here.
Do you wanna tell AdMech they're fine while you're at it, seeing as they could be worse off like GK and therefore they're doing something well? I'd love for you to tell me that right now.

News Flash: if we aren't talking about how garbage some of the armies function, we can't expect New GW to actually fix said issues.

Funny you mention AdMech because a mostly AdMech Imperium list (1300 points of retro scifi) got 10th place at the London GT. It was a Stygies detachment, mostly Fulgurites and Dragoons.

 Arachnofiend wrote:
Funny you mention AdMech because a mostly AdMech Imperium list (1300 points of retro scifi) got 10th place at the London GT. It was a Stygies detachment, mostly Fulgurites and Dragoons.

So it happens out of how many times and that's your defense?

I'm drawing from my own experiences playing against the army as well when I say AdMech isn't that bad. They don't have anything broken to the extent of Custodes bike captains but they have the tools to compete with other armies. It's certainly laughable to compare them to an army as bad as Grey Knights.

 Arachnofiend wrote:
I'm drawing from my own experiences playing against the army as well when I say AdMech isn't that bad. They don't have anything broken to the extent of Custodes bike captains but they have the tools to compete with other armies. It's certainly laughable to compare them to an army as bad as Grey Knights.

Nobody is as bad as Grey Knights, but AdMech is pretty damn near.

 Marmatag wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

This is a giant fallacy.

Just because you say "Grey Knights are good," or "Purifiers are good" doesn't make the discussion "positive." Delusion doesn't make you the champion you think it does. News flash: People who run GK have a more intimate understanding of the army than armchair intellectuals who make statements like 10 purifiers in a rhino is the unbeatable secret GK strategy.

It is *well known* how to run GK in a competitive setting, as a staple on force to Imperium Soup, or leveraging an all-or-nothing alpha strike (although, with the beta changes this is not possible in tournaments anymore). If you dropped "Best in Faction" awards at ITC, Grey Knights would largely dissipate.

Case in point. Here comes Marmatag to twist my statements put words in my mouth. You'll gladly scoop up those uninformed negative opinions though. Nom nom nom.

And with that I'm out. Enjoy your pity party where no one disagrees with you.

It's pretty evident from the poll that the overwhelming majority agree with me.

@Marmatag, perhaps you could point to a post from Deadalus81 where he says "Grey Knights are good" or something close to that? Or where anyone has said there is some secret strategy to winning with Grey Knights?

The fact other people recognize the serious faults with the Grey Knights Codex has absolutely nothing to do with your point about "delusional thinking." I'm pretty sure what you perceive as other people's delusions is a problem with reading comprehension on the part of a couple bitter, angry gamers.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
This poll needs to be changed. Grey Knights are recognized as the worst Codex by most people already. We're not learning anything, and other Codexes have serious faults as well.

My take is that any Codex that can only be used along with allies from another is a problem.

40kfaq@gwplc.com

Please complain to GW about the grey knights terrible codex.

@techsoldaten,
There actually are such posts claiming “secret strategy” and “Grey Knights are fine”...they just come from Reece Robbins.
Like this one: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/60/733325.page

 greyknight12 wrote:
@techsoldaten,
There actually are such posts claiming “secret strategy” and “Grey Knights are fine”...they just come from Reece Robbins.

Yeah. It was a slap in the face to tell GK players they're playing their army wrong and to use allies, and he even said that, if the smite nerf hit them, it didn't matter.

 Arachnofiend wrote:
Funny you mention AdMech because a mostly AdMech Imperium list (1300 points of retro scifi) got 10th place at the London GT. It was a Stygies detachment, mostly Fulgurites and Dragoons.

Ad mech are a lot better than people make them out to be. They have some really silly combos I was looking at. Basically Ravengaurd with units that don't suck. Plus - just making a huge robot squad with wrath of mars is extremely powerful.

I'm fine for positive approaches. I've posted in the other GK thread a mono-GK build that actually works - just not against high-tier meta lists. I've run it successfully.

But don't tell me that something is viable based on your *incorrect* math hammer that you're cooking up on the spot. (Daedalus didn't know statlines for models he was comparing, for instance, assuming Custode Bike Captains had a 5++, not a 3++ - which they almost always have - or a 4++ base, which they should have, also he didn't know that Grey Knights have to pay for their storm bolters, or that PAGK taking psilencers drop their melee weapon, and still go up in price).

In no universe is putting 10 purifiers in a Rhino (minimum what, ~380 points?) a viable thing to do. You're paying almost 400 points for essentially 10 marines that are Danger Island if they get within 3" of something worth smiting. Mathematical inefficiency aside, it's bonkers, considering you won't be in range (9" threat radius from Rhino) until turn 3. Can you afford to set aside 400 points for 3 turns, only to maybe be successful? Or perhaps that rhino will get surrounded and wiped, in which case, you're big time hosed? Yet this secret rhino strategy isn't thrown out as a "consider this," it's thrown out as a "this makes GK solid, you guys aren't trying things" kind of response, from someone who has admittedly *never* played as GK or *against* GK.

It'd be like me jumping in the in the Necrons thread and telling them to spam Warriors. I could cite all of the benefits of reanimating infantry, with -1 ap on their guns, and math hammer out how good they are relative to marines, or guardsmen, etc, and therefore Necrons "aren't as bad as people say." It's an easy statement to make because (a) you're not quantifying how bad the army is, only taking a poorly defined contrarian stance, and (b) it's a suggestion that is laughably bad, and you can cook up a nonsense scenario - mathematically - where it isn't.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Arachnofiend wrote:
Funny you mention AdMech because a mostly AdMech Imperium list (1300 points of retro scifi) got 10th place at the London GT. It was a Stygies detachment, mostly Fulgurites and Dragoons.

Ad mech are a lot better than people make them out to be. They have some really silly combos I was looking at. Plus - just making a huge robot squad with wrath of mars is extremely powerful.

AdMech are definitely hurting. But they have some combos that can catch people sleeping. That said, I wouldn't put them that much above GK. If the beta deep strike rule sticks around i'd say they're a full notch better than GK since they don't depend on DS & reserves, but that's a different story.

How are they that bad? Spamming dakka bots should do really well no army you are up against. It's just hilarious how much dark eldar they can kill in a turn and they are really hard to kill.

Daedalus didn't know statlines for models he was comparing, for instance

assuming Custode Bike Captains had a 5++, not a 3++ - which they almost always have - or a 4++ base

Yup, mistakes happen, but it was a 5++ on the Vertus not the SCDE.
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/756259/9964406.page#9964406

he didn't know that Grey Knights have to pay for their storm bolters

Incorrect.

, or that PAGK taking psilencers drop their melee weapon, and still go up in price).

Incorrect.

Both of these things addressed in my very post in that thread which you clearly failed to read. Sometimes when I'm at work and I post something really quickly I make errors, but sure - try to attack me with that.
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/756259.page#9961590

In no universe is putting 10 purifiers in a Rhino (minimum what, ~380 points?) a viable thing to do. You're paying almost 400 points for essentially 10 marines that are Danger Island if they get within 3" of something worth smiting. Mathematical inefficiency aside, it's bonkers, considering you won't be in range (9" threat radius from Rhino) until turn 3. Can you afford to set aside 400 points for 3 turns, only to maybe be successful? Or perhaps that rhino will get surrounded and wiped, in which case, you're big time hosed? Yet this secret rhino strategy isn't thrown out as a "consider this," it's thrown out as a "this makes GK solid, you guys aren't trying things" kind of response, from someone who has admittedly *never* played as GK or *against* GK.

What a bunch of bs you constructed there.
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/756259/9964876.page#9964876

AdMech are definitely hurting. But they have some combos that can catch people sleeping. That said, I wouldn't put them that much above GK.

Wait. Do you PLAY Ad Mech? Because if you don't you better back the feth off on analyzing them. Do you realize you basically said the same thing about Ad Mech that I said about GK?

I'm holding my tongue so fething hard right now.

Daed... you're doing it lol. What you keep saying you won't do...

 Quickjager wrote:
Daed... you're doing it lol. What you keep saying you won't do...

Yea, well, I'm beyond the thread itself and dealing with someone attacking me with bs and lies.

Grey Knights need to go back to the old Daemonhunters codex idea, with Inquisition forces as part of the Codex, with Grey Knights being a hard hitting addition to things like storm troopers, servitors, inquisitors, and their retinues.

And let GK Termies have thunder hammers and storm shields, so the 10 of them I modeled back when they could do that are useful again.

 Mattlov wrote:
Grey Knights need to go back to the old Daemonhunters codex idea, with Inquisition forces as part of the Codex, with Grey Knights being a hard hitting addition to things like storm troopers, servitors, inquisitors, and their retinues.

And let GK Termies have thunder hammers and storm shields, so the 10 of them I modeled back when they could do that are useful again.

And then they are a unique codex again, not just silver space marines.

phillv85 wrote:
I imagine those who voted Guard did so because they're fed up of them and see them ruining balance as opposed to considering them ineffective as an army. But perhaps not, I've seen some strange things here.

If there's one thing I've learned since I started discussing 40k on the internets, it's that there are a LOT of bad players online and they come up with some hilariously wacky opinions.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

And with that I'm out.

Not very successfully.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
I won't engage ob GK debates after this post, because I know where this leads.

Sure and it's a fair point, but you don't exactly see any other space marines running mono and doing fantastically, either (aside from the re-emergence of RG and asscans at the GT oddly enough...which makes sense in a way since rule of 3 doesn't govern them, but also made the table safer for them).

Yes, I know, but why does the physical location of your chaff change anything? IS are no more out of place with GK than Tzaangors are with TS.

Very much agree. I absolutely love my psychic army's flexibility.

I'm not complaining about it. I'm making a distinction. TS have "out of codex powers" in codex. GK can grab out of codex powers, too. Would I like to see GK get more disciplines? Yea that'd be pretty useful, I think.

It was an illustrative point about D3 damage being useful while also still being as effective as rubrics against MEQ.

10 Strikes for 30 Tzaangors.
Deepstrike. Smite for 3. SBs for 8.9. Melee for 7. That's 19 dead (133 points). Swinging back they kill 3.7 (77 points). If the Tzaangors got the drop on you - bad news, sure. Which is why IG need to be present. Same rule applies to Rubrics - have something to make sure they hit before they get hit.

Yes Tzaangors can get buffed. But then Strikes with Draigo and Psybolts could kill half that unit with just storm bolters.

Only as good as you deem it. Deeptriking a dreadnought with a 6+++ that can give itself a 5++ on top of that is not something to be scoffed at.

That's a ton of CP and support. If I spend 100 to 300 to 450 points on permanently buffing a 150-250 point unit then you can hardly call that unit exceedingly efficient without calculating what went into making it good.

Yup fair. I can drop a 20 man in someone's face and keep them on the table with CP. Possibly hurt a lot of stuff doing so, but that's a 4 CP (pass morale, deepstrike or DMC, and VotLW), 400+ points, plus points for a caster to get them prescience reliably. And then more to make sure they can have glamour on and have reroll 1s. All to kill about 30 guardsmen.

Alternatively 20 Strikes with one using Psybolts kills the same number of IG - maybe a bit less and has a lot less to worry about in terms of morale and will get much better with support buffs. Sure I could off a predator with those Rubrics, but it's unlikely anyone is going to let me deepstrike in RF range of one.

Sure, because unlike GK i'll blow my entire unit to smithereens without it.

You can double your range, but that's a lot of points for 1 MW. It does suck that all your smites are gak or super short range on purifiers.

Yup that's fair.

150 points or a spell plus a CP for a single unit as opposed to a bubble. It forces Tzaangors into 30 model units with no morale. Those units are on table with Tzaangors are in the cloud vulnerable to getting killed reducing the chance of Mutalith making it in range and getting the ability off. Otherwise you better hope no perils pop up the turn the Tzaangors drop.

Yea, it's gakky. I get that. It's not perfect, but at the same time there won't be anything coming to GK that changes that dynamic. They'll get some buffs and maybe draw in a couple new dreadnoughts, but they'll never get chaff or possibly other tanks.

The D3 wounds thing. It's a pretty stark comparison if you ask me. I don't think they fill the anti-tank role, but it's not bare bones, either. The psycannon should be D2 instead.

Yup it sucks, I know. It would be killer if the Prometheus' command relay was -1CP all of the time.

I'm not salty about TS. I very much love my codex. I just never see anyone talk about things GK do well and I think that's bad for the community and bad for the army if you ever want it to see the light of day.

Of course not, mono-Marines tend to have some issues. Pure Chaos Space Marine armies can do alright as well.
However, in a discussion about "worst codex", Grey Knights stand out by virtue of having the least (both numerically and in terms of efficiency) tools to deal with the many situations that can arise in a 40K game.
There's no arguing that Grey Knights are in a tier of their own with regards to competitive gaming. Thousand Sons are nowhere near that tier. Heck, it can be argued that any Codex: Space Marines chapter not named "Ultramarines" or "Raven Guard" is worse off than Thousand Sons.

Umm, yes they are. Infantry Squads are drawn from Codex: Astra Militarum. Tzaangors come from Codex: Thousand Sons. When discussing how strong an individual codex/faction is, the units inside the codex absolutely matter. If Codex: Grey Knights exists solely to supply Grand Master Nemesis Dreadknights and maybe one other character or two to other codices and does nothing else well, it has to be a pretty terrible codex. When glaring holes exist in your roster that you have to rely on Allies to fill, the worth of that actual faction is lessened.
Now, that's not to say that I'm advocating no allies or ignoring that mixing factions together is absolutely the best way to play competitive 8th Edition. It's just one of many ways to discern the relative inefficiency of Grey Knights.

Well, no, Grey Knights have to ally in detachments from other codices to get other disciplines. Thousand Sons get three disciplines without having to utilise any other faction. Seeing as competitive Codex: Space Marine lists don't always bring psykers anyway...

Ok? Again, it's absolutely irrelevant. D3 Damage melee attacks are useful. It's more useful on tough, mobile platforms, of which the Grey Knight codex has exactly one (or two if you want to be technical). It's also more useful on units with good Strength values and a decent number of attacks. For these reasons, Grey Knight infantry are not great melee units. Overall, they're not really that good at all seeing as they won't often make combat, and even if they do, their damage output isn't as scary as what other armies can put out for similar points anyway.

So our discussion of "who has the better stratagems" especially with regards to Thousand Sons having a cheaper fight twice stratagem on a superior melee unit to anything in the Grey Knight codex that can use said less efficient fight twice stratagem turned into a "which unit wins if it goes first" debate? Huh? Smite for 3? You mean Smite for 1, right? 1 mortal wound unless the target is Daemonic. Tzaangors aren't Daemons. Now we're doing hypothetical units VS units with the odds stacked in the Strikes' favour? Ok?
Let me illustrate a few things for you; Tzaangors are tougher per point than Strikes; Tzaangors hit harder in combat per point than Strikes; Tzaangors are faster than Strikes; Tzaangors have more buff potential than Strikes; Tzaangors offer more board coverage than Strikes.
Actually, here's a better question. Which of those units can be a multi-purpose chaff or inexpensive destroyer-type unit? Oh, and 10 Rubric Marines Deep Striking with Veterans of the Long War and Prescience could kill the entire Strike unit with just Inferno Bolters. See what I did there?

It's still a non-FW/character Dreadnought. It's not offering game-changing firepower, and even with a 6++ and a possible 5++ - which you almost always want on something more valuable - it's still pretty darned easy to deal with. If it fails a charge, it's stuck in hot water and will melt accordingly. It doesn't offer game-changing firepower; a Leviathan this is not. That's not to say you can't get value out of a Deep Striking Dreadnought - I say this as someone that loved doing it - but really, how does it qualify as some amazing stratagem that Grey Knight players should salivate over that is superior to what Thousand Sons can bring to bear with their stratagems?

How is that a tonne of CP? You keep bringing up Psybolt, but that's 2CP for +1 Strength and -1AP to the non-heavy weapons that Grey Knight infantry can use. Meanwhile, Veterans of the Long and Daemonforge are 1CP each for a total of 2CP to give +1 to-wound and re-roll all failed hit and wound rolls with all weapons used by the unit for that phase. Psybolt and super-Psybolt (for the heavy weapons, also 2CP) are the only stratagems you can give Strike squads to boost their ranged damage output; otherwise, it's just Astral Aim (ignores cover and ignores line of sight, but if you're dropping within 12") and re-roll failed hit-rolls from Draigo/re-roll 1s to-hit from a Grand Master. Thousand Sons Daemon Engines can add +1 to-wound from Flickering Flames, +1 to-hit from Prescience and re-roll 1s to-hit from Exalted Sorcerers/Ahriman/Magnus. Thousand Sons get the options to do that if you feel it is necessary. Grey Knights don't get those options.
Also, I like how you don't address the rest of that sentence, seeing as it makes it crystal clear Grey Knights can't pull out the types of combos Thousand Sons - and indeed, pretty much all other Astartes codices - can. No Killshot. No mega buffing melee units. Fewer casting bonuses to get critical powers off, and, as discussed above, nowhere near the potential to mega-buff ranged units. Let's also not forget that the Tzaangor fight twice stratagem is 2CP with Tzaangors being more efficient damage dealers than pretty much all Grey Knight combat units, and the Grey Knight one is 3CP on a wider range of less useful units.

I already said I don't advocate the 20-man Rubric unit. Rubrics are better for camping home objectives, a role they actually do alright in because of how hard to shift they can be in cover...something PAGK don't do well at all. However, why are you acting like it's a guaranteed 4CP? If you use the Dark Matter Crystal, the teleport doesn't cost you a CP. Also, if the unit actually does have Weaver and Glamour on it - especially if you manage to drop it into cover - then I doubt you're going to need the 2CP to auto-pass a Morale test because that unit's either not going anywhere, or your opponent will have the tools to kill them quickly anyway. Depends on the situation, of course. Besides, the Rubrics are much, much harder to kill than the Strikes which is something to consider. That unit also shines the tougher the target is, while the reverse is true for the Strikes. The Rubrics can potentially kill much higher value targets with greater ease than the Strikes in this scenario, so it's a matter of creating the opportunity and taking it. If you're not using the rest of the army to clear out screens for your 400+ point super-buffed unit to destroy something of similar to equal value, you're not using said unit well.

Yes, it's a negative. However, does it make up for the disadvantages PAGK have in comparison to Rubrics, remembering that Rubrics are oft considered the worst of the four cult troop choices? No, it doesn't, and that's pathetic.

It's also a lot of points for 1 Mortal Wound from a Grey Knight unit. What's your point? At least Rubrics don't have to be within 12" to cast their Smite, meaning they are less likely to be in Deny the Witch range, are less likely to be near anti-psyker effects, are less likely to have to worry about being shot/charged in return, etc. Before you say "but Grey Knights want to be in combat" that's only if they charge or get charged by Fire Warrior equivalents, because otherwise they're going to get curb stomped before they attack in most cases seeing they are no tougher than Tactical Marines at nearly double the points cost. Now of course Brother Captains do help this little issue for Grey Knights...but then the Smites from the army (bar Purifiers and associated characters, but even that's 3" or 6"...yay) are all stuck at 1 mortal wound against non-daemonic targets. Thousand Sons, meanwhile, can use their cheaper psychic characters to sling Smites that deal D3/D6 mortal wounds. Not a lot to be positive about.

Said 150 point Mutalith isn't just a supporting unit that solely exists to buff Tzaangors, though. It fills multiple roles for a Thousand Sons army, namely drawing anti-tank fire, being a distraction, having a midfield melee and mortal wound presence, etc. It's a good, possibly even great, unit.
You're acting like putting 30 Tzaangors into reserve somehow disqualifies the Thousand Sons player from running chaff. 10 man Cultist units, anyone? Filling out Battalions for 5CP a pop cheaper than Grey Knights could possibly emulate, anyone? (30 Tzaangors + 2x10 Cultists is STILL less points than 3x5 Strike squads with no upgrades) The Tzaangor charge is also more reliable with said buffs thanks to the +1 from the Instrument.
That's all beside the point though. Grey Knights absolutely rely on re-rolling 9" charges to get into combat to make the most out of the combat abilities they pay through the nose for, and that's not a situation anyone would want to be in with units as woefully easy to kill making up the majority of the codex. Failing a charge with that 215 point Tzaangor unit isn't the end of the world. It's a bit of a different story with what you're likely to be attempting to charge from Deep Strike with Grey Knights.

Grey Knights were more reliant on that tactic to compete than Thousand Sons were on the Tzaangor bomb, and the Big FAQ makes you wait an extra turn to bring your Reserves down where you need them. Grey Knights are utterly dependent on teleporting to make up for how stupidly painless it is to remove entire squads of them at a time, and when you have to wait an extra turn to bring down potentially up to half your army that relies on Deep Striking just to survive...you're in a lot of trouble against any decent opponent, let's leave it at that.

Exactly. They don't have the in-codex tools other factions possess, which is the entire point I've been pushing. As a stand-alone codex, they are the worst. To make matters even more grim, as an Imperium faction, they don't offer enough to help push a mixed army to the top tables reliably, meaning there's little to no reason to ever bring them. Heck, they are geared for taking on Daemons and Chaos Daemons have a stratagem that absolutely takes a giant flaming dump on Grey Knights specifically. No other faction with codex comes even remotely close to being in as bad of a situation as Grey Knights.

Except even with D3 Damage you showed they aren't that much better than Rubrics, when Purgators offer the "heaviest" firepower of all Grey Knight infantry, because Grey Knight "heavy" firepower doesn't exist unless it's on a vehicle that's either over-priced or fragile, and Rubrics don't turn into a real anti-vehicle unit unless you buff them (and you can buff them far more than you can Purgators).

It really is Codex: Dreadknights, the rest of the army may as well not exist competitively. Games Workshop just doesn't seem to know how to get elite Space Marines right short of slapping extra wounds on them, and even Primaris aren't as hot as they could be.

Here's the thing, I play Thousand Sons far more than Grey Knights (there's a reason for that), and I play against both a fairly even amount. That includes both tournament and casual experience. You don't see people on this codex talk about what Grey Knights do well because there's almost nothing they do well, and I don't just mean that in the "because another codex does it better" way, I mean it in the "no, they just suck" way. Sure, I can rattle on about how Custodes and Blood Angels provide much better melee support (as in, better in almost every conceivable metric), people don't need pskyers if they have anti-psychic Culexus Assassins, Primaris are better elite objective holders, Deathwatch provide better ranged support, all other Astartes have way more options to choose from, what non-unique units they have are almost all done better in every other codex, Guard actually gives you chaff, etc. However, I can also point out that, conceptually, the PAGK does not function properly in 8th Edition because he pays through the nose for things he will almost never use, or abilities that just aren't that impressive. Terminators suck in 8th Edition too, meaning literally every infantry unit in the army has significant problems that not even minor points drops can solve. They are hot garbage and in serious need of significant reworks. They are the worst codex army in the game. No one else comes close. Thousand Sons don't come close by virtue of having so many tools Grey Knights don't, and even outperforming Grey Knights in the Psychic phase. Other armies some people have suggested don't come close either.

I'll talk Grey Knight positives when Games Workshop decides that being perpetual wooden spooners isn't their destiny.
The sad reality is that we wouldn't be having this discussion if the Big FAQ Deep Strike change didn't happen. It exacerbated the Grey Knight codex's issues ten-fold.

Played as gk today. Won a game vs death guard. Gk are not top tier but they have a bunch of great tools to use. Strikers are good. Voldus is good. Everything throwing out smites with +1 to cast is handy. Deepstriking landraider is hilarious. Psybolt strategem makes it even more so. Fighting twice is really helpful.
There are a bunch of problems of course. Especially, lack of cp and a way to regenerate them without ig allies. Total number of units is quite small. While being great if used right, strikers are a real squishy glass cannon that needa both shooting and mellee to pay off. Luckilly, having free deep strike and access to charge re-rolls they can mitigate this problem somewhat. Also, deepstriking landraider helps them get where needed.

 koooaei wrote:
Played as gk today. Won a game vs death guard. Gk are not top tier but they have a bunch of great tools to use. Strikers are good. Voldus is good. Everything throwing out smites with +1 to cast is handy. Deepstriking landraider is hilarious. Psybolt strategem makes it even more so. Fighting twice is really helpful.
There are a bunch of problems of course. Especially, lack of cp and a way to regenerate them without ig allies. Total number of units is quite small. While being great if used right, strikers are a real squishy glass cannon that needa both shooting and mellee to pay off. Luckilly, having free deep strike and access to charge re-rolls they can mitigate this problem somewhat. Also, deepstriking landraider helps them get where needed.

Forgive me if I sound doubtful, but what list was your opponent playing roughly ? Death Guard is so resilient I fail to see how they would lose to GK if not for really lucky objectives or such. I play my AdMech army with a pretty good list (in my opinion and with what I own) and it's been ages since I won against DG.