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The Falchion really isn't worth discussing here. First, it costs more than the point limit they're playing at. Second, it's FW, which the opponents have a problem with. Third, you do not want a vehicle that will go about 50-50 with a knight when that vehicle costs 2x as much as the knight, you are already losing to the 2nd knight.

A Librarian with a Jump Pack is going to be worth his weight in gold here. Everybody talks about 3++ Knights. If you can get a Librarian within 6 inches of a Knight (jump pack is helpful here), you can strip that Invulnerable Save with Null Zone and focus fire your heavy weapons. All of the rotating of ion shields in the world won't save a Knight from Null Zone. Any smite you can pull off will help immensely as well. Each mortal wound counts. Nullzone is tough to cast, so make sure you save a command point to help make sure it goes off.

Raven Guard would probably be superior to you than Imperial Fists, as -1 to hit from over 12 inches can help your super expensive primaris marines actually take some of the shooting coming at them. A huge problem you are running into as most imperial knight weapons are at least damage 2 (like the Avenger Gatling Cannon). Or d3 Damage like Battle Cannons and stomping boots. This makes basically his entire army specialized in killing Primaris Marines... which isn't great. Every miss you can force may save a life, and forcing his Plasma to overheat on a 1 or a 2 can help get some more mortal wounds on the Castellan.

Raven Guard also have access to that neat "No Overwatch" Warlord Trait, So if Captain Ahab starts wandering too close You can hop into combat with a Jump Pack Warlord (with Shield Eternal and a Thunder Hammer), deny his overwatch completely, and then pile in with whatever else wants to throw some punches at the Dominus.

I would definitely take at least 2 squads of Devestators with 3 Las Cannons and a Heavy Bolter. The Heavy Bolter is for abusing Hellfire Shells + Cherub + Signum to deal 2d3 mortal wounds. Every mortal wound helps.

How about considering something a little out of the box? An outrider detachment of 3 Salamander attack bikes with multi-meltas. They each get to reroll if they don't hit and/or wound at no CP cost. They come to around 196 points and you can throw in the Librarian for the null zone.

It's more expensive than an IG brigade but in this instance it may serve you well vs IK.

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
How about considering something a little out of the box? An outrider detachment of 3 Salamander attack bikes with multi-meltas. They each get to reroll if they don't hit and/or wound at no CP cost. They come to around 196 points and you can throw in the Librarian for the null zone.

It's more expensive than an IG brigade but in this instance it may serve you well vs IK.

Valkyrie already mentioned some combination of dropping several squads of multimelta devastators within half range of a knight, and the math suggests that they would only score 10 wounds average before immediately dying. I doubt the bikes would be more effective for their points, though they might be fun models to get if I ever get to play against less gimmicky lists.

Is there anything that comes close to being as effective as the Leviathans for their points against titans? Especially keeping it within SM?

A BA captn slamguinius for 114 pts. has the potential to kill a knight in one turn, thats a captain with a JP and TH. You make him the warlord and give him artisan of war, which boosts the damage of his TH to 4. Then you have the choice of two relics, hammer of baal or angels wings. The hammer hits on 2+, the angels wings denies overwatch and allows re-rolling failed charges. Deepstrike him, play descent of angels for 2CP to get a 3D6 charge. After successful charging use 1 CP for red rampage to get D3 more attacks. If you have chosen the hammer the captain will have 6 attacks hitting on 2s, re-rolling 1s, which will be 6 successful hits, red thirst will give you +1 to wound rolls after charging, wounding on 3s, thats 4 wounds. The knight will have a 5+ or 6+ sv, saving one wound. You will do 12 damage. If the knight kills him you play only in death does duty end for 2CP and fight again, killing the knight with 12 more damage, or at least bringing him down to his last bracket. If the captain survives you can play honour the chapter for 3 CP to fight again. You can give the captain a SS for a 3++ invuln sv to increase his chances of survival. You could also deepstrike a BA librarian with him and use unleash rage on the captain for +1A. You can use multiple captn slamguinius with JP and TH. But only one can have a relic and warlord trait. You can deepstrike a sanguinus priest to give the captain +1 strength, wounding the knight on 2s, but the priest needs to be within 6".

A BA librarian dreadnought (172 pts.) can deepstrike with a lucius pattern drop pod (80pts.). You can give him a melta for 17 more points. He can cast quickening on himself for +3 to charge rolls and +D3 attacks. The dread can also cast wings of sanguinius on himself, which lets him move 12" in the psychic phase and gives him the FLY keyword. And because its a character you can use red rampage for another +D3 attacks. He hits on 2s, but cant re-roll anything. He will also wound the knight on 2s with red thirst. If you attack with the force halberd the knight may not have a sv at all because its AP-4. Its 3 damage for every successful wound. If the dread is your warlord you can increase the damage to 4 with artisan of war. A BA JP librarian who deepstrikes as well can cast unleash rage on the dread for +1A. And the dread can also fight again at the end of the turn, or when it dies.

 p5freak wrote:
A BA captn slamguinius for 114 pts. has the potential to kill a knight in one turn, thats a captain with a JP and TH.

great post

Yeah captains with JP, SS and TH(even without being BA though BA ones are particularly nasty) are one thing knights really hate. Those things are bummer to deal with. Short of biggest knights and their inv ignoring missiles not really easy way to deal with those for knights if they don't have chaff to deal with them. And those are only on the biggest knights which aren't hottest of the hot from knights(thus not auto seen), eat CP quite a lot(count on needing 3 per missile) and still are far less than 50% to take out one captain.

Dont those Captains only have 6 wounds?

I guess with the Command Reroll its a little bit iffier, but thats a pretty dangerous move for the Captain too.

 Crazyterran wrote:
Dont those Captains only have 6 wounds?

I guess with the Command Reroll its a little bit iffier, but thats a pretty dangerous move for the Captain too.

Yeah. But knight player will find that tricky anyway to take in h2h. If they take cc weapon they have 4 attacks hitting on 3+ and wounding on 2+ and you will have 3++. If they stomp for 12 times they need multiple. And of course you have basically paid yourself with the damage even if you die. And CP reroll helps a lot in h2h making you very unlikely to die.

And for the missiles that's fairly safe as even with reroll for to wounds that's 30% chance to die if you get hit and wounded. So what 16% chance in total. So 6 wounds is actually pretty good for the usage. You are fairly good chance to survive anything but getting lucky hit and failed inv save by overwatch from big guns(volcano lance or harpoon) and from the h2h attacks. For about 100 pts while causing about half the damage 400-600 pts knight has. Not too bad.

Only thing those captains will hate charging will be valiant knight provided it's not the BA captain of "no overwatch". That will overwatch you with huge pile of D2 autohits so even 3++ will struggle. Combined with 4 melta guns and harpoon that would insta kill if gets past save and 2 shoulder guns for 2d3 more shots of d3 damage shots. That's risky proposition(oh and that valiant will likely be overwatching even if you charge other knight due to strategem)

 Crazyterran wrote:
Dont those Captains only have 6 wounds?

I guess with the Command Reroll its a little bit iffier, but thats a pretty dangerous move for the Captain too.

Thats the role of a BA captain, deepstrike. charge, do some damage, and if he doesnt kill the knight, die a glorious death killing the knight with his last breath, fighting one more time before he goes down

 p5freak wrote:

 Crazyterran wrote:
Dont those Captains only have 6 wounds?

I guess with the Command Reroll its a little bit iffier, but thats a pretty dangerous move for the Captain too.

Thats the role of a BA captain, deepstrike. charge, do some damage, and if he doesnt kill the knight, die a glorious death killing the knight with his last breath, fighting one more time before he goes down

Suicidal HQ's with 3/4 cp is unfortunately one of the few things codex blood angles can bring to the table everyone else in vanilla codex is stuck with doing meh damage that way and still dieing. Also if he's deepstriking your board presence better be able to take 2 round and you'll probably take less damage from a knight list than DE, Tau, IG.

Outside of the BA Captains which are the strongest, Raven Guard Captains are comparable. They also have a warlord trait which denies over watch, and they have access to the shield eternal which helps them deal with multi wound hits by cutting them in half. Making them very likely to survive missiles, and will take two chain sword cleaves to kill. They are less flashy and explosive than BA Captains, but still good.

I just played Black Templars in a 2k point tourney with 3 IK players. I matched up vs. one. I'm really new and can't remember all of the stuff for the factions, so I can't go into too much description about his army. He had 3 Knights, with one of them being a Warlord and having a lot more guns and the uber flamer, and then 3x Scouts and a Captain with Grand Strategist (or whatever) and a Lt. A short list of things I experienced. My Jump Pack Lieutenant charged from behind LOS-blocking terrain to deny overwatch on one of the 'smaller' (lol) Knights. My Emperor's Champ died fast along with my Lt, Helbrecht hit, then Honor the Chapter, then next turn Only in Death to take knight with him. 5x TH/SH Terminators died to uber flamer overwatch, other knight was screened. His Scouts had relic behind his Knights which was hard to access after my JP HQs died. Fun game overall, I was glad to take out a knight with Helbrecht.

The flamer knight is the valiant and that\s the knight you do NOT want to charge with anything expensive elite guys. 5 terminators, even with SH, are not in healthy place against that D2 flamer. You'll be losing about 3 in average just to flamer. You need something tougher than that to soak up it. Alas that thing will likely destroy even rhino on overwatch.

The Valiant was set to a 2+/4++ with plenty of CP for Rotate Ion, I wanted to try to negate that somewhat via melee and Terms was the most survivable thing I could get in range. But you're right, I learned the hard way. I feel like without skewing my list to beat IK with a ton of LCs, the best I can do is pour weight of fire into something like that in the future. Lots of dakka + Storm of Fire warlord trait might be enough but dang those guys are tough. Next tourney I will bring more Lascannons though, and not rely as much on Thunderhammers.

Ah well then at least it did not have relic flamer. Actually poor combo as not much 2+ save helps due to 4++. So termies had bit better chance than normal. Still 2-3 dead guy going in so output will be bad so you would need more stuff like those th captains mentioned. Otherwise 2-3 guys gets there, few wounds and kniggt moves out and finishes those that survive stomp


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Really those captains are one of knights worst nightmare. Ba one also will scare crap out of even valiant. And others are scared of one anyway.

Slamquinious is not space marines. He is a blood angel. Plus is a single use gimmick.

I guess the two biggest counter knights have against stuff like Slamquinious is the house that can use a stratagem fire at units coming in from reserves and the dreaded death-grip stratagem that can simply cause character models to be crushed to a bloody pulp.
So I would advice against charging models with a Gauntlet.
Also are jetpack units considered infantry? Because then he could also use the stomp stratagem on you for 1D3 mortal wounds on top his normal stomp attacks.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Slamquinious is not space marines. He is a blood angel. Plus is a single use gimmick.

Blood angels are space marines as well. And any captain wiwh th and sh are worth their points vs knights that have very few ways to prevent them charging. 2-3 of those will make knight hurt. And are hard to take out afterwards so not automatically single use.

Jump packs, thunder hammers and storm shields arent ba only


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Arlen wrote:
I guess the two biggest counter knights have against stuff like Slamquinious is the house that can use a stratagem fire at units coming in from reserves and the dreaded death-grip stratagem that can simply cause character models to be crushed to a bloody pulp.
So I would advice against charging models with a Gauntlet.
Also are jetpack units considered infantry? Because then he could also use the stomp stratagem on you for 1D3 mortal wounds on top his normal stomp attacks.

That knight first has to survive the captains(plus whatever else comes). And even if yes ill be hitting on 5+ or 6 with one attack using that strategem. Unlikely knight will risk few of his cp's .

tneva82 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Slamquinious is not space marines. He is a blood angel. Plus is a single use gimmick.

Blood angels are space marines as well. And any captain wiwh th and sh are worth their points vs knights that have very few ways to prevent them charging. 2-3 of those will make knight hurt. And are hard to take out afterwards so not automatically single use.

Jump packs, thunder hammers and storm shields arent ba only

The key to the tactic is the +1 to wound +1 to hit thunderhammer with ignore overwatch reroll 3d6 charge. It's practically worthless without the ignore overwatch. Only blood angels can do this. No - they aren't "Space marines" they are just an imperial ally in all respects.

Sigh. Blood angels are one of marine chapters. Claiming they aren't marines is like claiming ultramarines aren't marines. Stupid. Anybody claiming that is worthless to listen to.

And no that combo isn't only thing that worries knights. Anybody who thinks that doesn't understand knights. Have you even read knight codex? There' basically one knight only where no overwatch is crucial and even that is survivable for reqular captain though riskier. Others aren't hitting on 6's enough to worry w6 3++.

You have no clue about knights.

Use three BA captains in a supreme command detachment. Each one is 114 pts. One can be the warlord with angels wings and artisan of war. For 1 CP another one can get the hammer of baal, and the third is a regular captain with JP and TH. The angels wings captain can re-roll its charge because of angels wings. The second captain can use the 3D6 charge with descent of angels for 1 CP. The third can use the re-roll stratagem. Red rampage adds D3 attacks for one captain. If all three make their charges they will kill the knight.

tneva82 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Slamquinious is not space marines. He is a blood angel. Plus is a single use gimmick.

Blood angels are space marines as well. And any captain wiwh th and sh are worth their points vs knights that have very few ways to prevent them charging. 2-3 of those will make knight hurt. And are hard to take out afterwards so not automatically single use.

Jump packs, thunder hammers and storm shields arent ba only


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Arlen wrote:
I guess the two biggest counter knights have against stuff like Slamquinious is the house that can use a stratagem fire at units coming in from reserves and the dreaded death-grip stratagem that can simply cause character models to be crushed to a bloody pulp.
So I would advice against charging models with a Gauntlet.
Also are jetpack units considered infantry? Because then he could also use the stomp stratagem on you for 1D3 mortal wounds on top his normal stomp attacks.

That knight first has to survive the captains(plus whatever else comes). And even if yes ill be hitting on 5+ or 6 with one attack using that strategem. Unlikely knight will risk few of his cp's .

Well they only have to declare using those strats after they attacked so they can always use them to make sure the captain dies.
Additionally you are also using quite a lot of command points to get to the knight to fight it in close combat so you can surely expect the knight player to invest some commandpoints trying to keep the knight alive and even then Admech knights can get back to there highest profile with a simple 1 point stratagem while imperium knights have acces to household Hawkshroud. I think you can pretty much expect a knight always to be fighting at his best profile when you got it cornered. Because no knight player will let his knight go down without grabbing the chance to let it kill atleast something in return.

Which also brings me to the following point, which space marine unit can survive killing a Knight in CC and the following explosion when the Knight player uses a the explode stratagem? D6 mortal wounds to the face hurts, no matter what model you are.

tneva82 wrote:
Sigh. Blood angels are one of marine chapters. Claiming they aren't marines is like claiming ultramarines aren't marines. Stupid. Anybody claiming that is worthless to listen to.

And no that combo isn't only thing that worries knights. Anybody who thinks that doesn't understand knights. Have you even read knight codex? There' basically one knight only where no overwatch is crucial and even that is survivable for reqular captain though riskier. Others aren't hitting on 6's enough to worry w6 3++.

You have no clue about knights.

They were clearly talking about the vanilla codex and you know it.

IKs are relatively hard to shoot to death and vanilla marines lack effective CC options. So soup it is.

tneva82 wrote:
Sigh. Blood angels are one of marine chapters. Claiming they aren't marines is like claiming ultramarines aren't marines. Stupid. Anybody claiming that is worthless to listen to.

And no that combo isn't only thing that worries knights. Anybody who thinks that doesn't understand knights. Have you even read knight codex? There' basically one knight only where no overwatch is crucial and even that is survivable for reqular captain though riskier. Others aren't hitting on 6's enough to worry w6 3++.

You have no clue about knights.

No - I seriously question your game knowledge if you think charging a unit that has several weapons that deal multi damage and you have only 6 wounds isn't risky.

For example if you charge an IK crusader
d6 melta shots
14 str 6 ap-2 flat 2 damage shots (endless furry relic) that gerneate additional hits on 6's
3 krak missles
a heavy flamer
and a stubber

A castellan is even more brutal

Without ignore overwatch and even with a 3++ save - your chance of dying with a 6 wound model is very high.
Without +1 to wound army trait damage against knights is pathetic with a thunderhammer
Only BA have +1 to hit and +1 damage hammer.

The list goes on as to why only BA can do this effectively.

If the OP question was - how do I beat IK with blood angels. Slamquinious would be the answer. If the question is space marines the answer is soup.

 Arlen wrote:

Which also brings me to the following point, which space marine unit can survive killing a Knight in CC and the following explosion when the Knight player uses a the explode stratagem? D6 mortal wounds to the face hurts, no matter what model you are.

Any SM captain with SS can walk away from an imperial knight without a scratch. And with 5 wounds he can survive an exploding knight. A BA captain with the DC keyword can get a 5+ FNP.

 Arlen wrote:
Which also brings me to the following point, which space marine unit can survive killing a Knight in CC and the following explosion when the Knight player uses a the explode stratagem? D6 mortal wounds to the face hurts, no matter what model you are.

You do know that that stratagem only works half the time (on a 4+). It seems like a waste of 2 CP to even bother with it. I mean if it was an autoexplode then maybe it would be worth doing but not on a 50/50 chance.

Seems worth noting that the ignore overwatch relic jump pack is recommended if you are going to be assaulting things like knights since they are typically pretty deadly in overwatch, especially the ones with flamers or AGCs, and their strat to let another knight overwatch stuff.

Leo_the_Rat wrote:

 Arlen wrote:
Which also brings me to the following point, which space marine unit can survive killing a Knight in CC and the following explosion when the Knight player uses a the explode stratagem? D6 mortal wounds to the face hurts, no matter what model you are.

You do know that that stratagem only works half the time (on a 4+). It seems like a waste of 2 CP to even bother with it. I mean if it was an autoexplode then maybe it would be worth doing but not on a 50/50 chance.

It’s essentially a 3CP stratagem where you sometimes don’t need to spend the third. You should always reroll there.