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 Galef wrote:

Ice_can wrote:
Nothing is currently stopping you running an all jetbike army under the current rules.
Yes you get less CP but that is GW's attempt to balance the advantage you have in objectives by having such a mobile force.
Yes some units are still being overcosted for their sins in 7th edition but that doesn't mean they should go back to being troops.

That's fair. At this point I agree that WRs should not be Troops, but as I've said, it's b/c of their access to weapons, not b/c of their mobility.
Troops with superior mobility can and do exist. Making Troops an "infantry only club" is not an idea I like, regardless of how balanced it can be in theory. There are other ways to balance.

I basically agree with this. I actually always liked the 1 per 3 limitation on big guns in jetbike squads. It forced you to choose between staying at a safe distance and assault moving out of line of sight or getting in close to bring all your guns to bare.

Basically, I think we all agree that an army full of all-heavy-weapons jetbikes should be worse at generating CP than rangers, avengers, etc. The main issue in my eyes is that building a fluffy list without infantry troops means you're at a massive CP disadvantage. I find the use of stratagems to be an engaging part of the game and don't feel that people with non-troop armies should be punished as severely as they are for fielding fluffy armies that don't happen to include a handful of basically arbitrary units.

Each outrider you field instead of a batallion costs you 4CP. A 2 outrider army versus a 2 batallion army is looking at 5 CP against 13 CP. That gap feels a bit too big to me regardless of whether we're talking about Saim-Hann or Death Wing armies.

Wyldhunt wrote:
Each outrider you field instead of a batallion costs you 4CP. A 2 outrider army versus a 2 batallion army is looking at 5 CP against 13 CP. That gap feels a bit too big to me regardless of whether we're talking about Saim-Hann or Death Wing armies.

Exactly.
The thing I am most disappointed about is that there are so, so many other options:
A) Make WRs Troops again. Obviously not the favorite option and really would require removal of special weapon accessibility.
B) Make WRs really, really cheap so that you can take them over Vypers or Spears and not feel like you are missing out
C) Give Outrider/Vanguard/Spearhead Detachment more CP in "special" situations. Saim-Hann Outriders, or Deathwing Vanguards should get 4CPs instead of only 1.

I like option C the most, but it doesn't help WRs at all because Spears benefit as well.

-

 Galef wrote:

Wyldhunt wrote:
Each outrider you field instead of a batallion costs you 4CP. A 2 outrider army versus a 2 batallion army is looking at 5 CP against 13 CP. That gap feels a bit too big to me regardless of whether we're talking about Saim-Hann or Death Wing armies.

Exactly.
The thing I am most disappointed about is that there are so, so many other options:
A) Make WRs Troops again. Obviously not the favorite option and really would require removal of special weapon accessibility.
B) Make WRs really, really cheap so that you can take them over Vypers or Spears and not feel like you are missing out
C) Give Outrider/Vanguard/Spearhead Detachment more CP in "special" situations. Saim-Hann Outriders, or Deathwing Vanguards should get 4CPs instead of only 1.

I like option C the most, but it doesn't help WRs at all because Spears benefit as well.

-

Copy the imperial Knight's codex

Saim Hann outrider detachment containing 3 units of wind riders changes the command benifit from +1CP to +3CP. I think +4 is a bit far as your still getting a massive mobility buff in an edition where board control is very powerful especially turn 1 board control.

That's not bad.

Yeah. I'd be fine with that. +3 feels about right. A 2 CP difference compared to a batallion could be 2 fewer extra psychic powers in a phase, 2 less re-uses of serpent shields, 1 less Lightning Fast Reactions, etc. It's enough to make me consider taking a batallion instead, but not so much as to make me feel like I'm missing out on stratagems entirely if I build my list around outriders.

 Galef wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Now the Scatterlaser took a hit, their armor went down to 4+ (which was an often suggested fix in 7th) AND they took a hit by being moved to a different FOC slot. It was too much. Dont make the unit entry pay because of the dumpster fire known as 7th Edition.

Thank you. I do still think that a Troop with all special weapons is a bit much, but that could be an easy fix by dropping it back to 1 per 3. With all the nerfs they took coming into 8th, there is no legitimate reason they shouldn't still be Troops (aside from some silly notion that only Infantry should be Troops)

-

I don't believe in units paying for past sins. Simple as that.

Ice_can wrote:

 Galef wrote:

Wyldhunt wrote:
Each outrider you field instead of a batallion costs you 4CP. A 2 outrider army versus a 2 batallion army is looking at 5 CP against 13 CP. That gap feels a bit too big to me regardless of whether we're talking about Saim-Hann or Death Wing armies.

Exactly.
The thing I am most disappointed about is that there are so, so many other options:
A) Make WRs Troops again. Obviously not the favorite option and really would require removal of special weapon accessibility.
B) Make WRs really, really cheap so that you can take them over Vypers or Spears and not feel like you are missing out
C) Give Outrider/Vanguard/Spearhead Detachment more CP in "special" situations. Saim-Hann Outriders, or Deathwing Vanguards should get 4CPs instead of only 1.

I like option C the most, but it doesn't help WRs at all because Spears benefit as well.

-

Copy the imperial Knight's codex

Saim Hann outrider detachment containing 3 units of wind riders changes the command benifit from +1CP to +3CP. I think +4 is a bit far as your still getting a massive mobility buff in an edition where board control is very powerful especially turn 1 board control.

I would also add additional restriction/requirements of having the HQ slot also have the JETBIKE keyword for this to work. After all, why should a detachment of all bikes gain any sort of command benefits when there's no commander (in jetbike) leading them into battle?

Okay so good house rule for Saim hann could be.

Windriders count as troops for Saim hann but HQ must have keyword jetbike.
+3CP

1HQ (jetbike)
3-5 Troops (wind riders)

Reasoning for 3 CP is. Going shining spears is always a given instead of wind riders. The only real benefit to wind riders is the CP bonus. Shining spears outperform them in every other way

warpedpig wrote:
Okay so good house rule for Saim hann could be.

Windriders count as troops for Saim hann but HQ must have keyword jetbike.
+3CP

1HQ (jetbike)
3-5 Troops (wind riders)

Reasoning for 3 CP is. Going shining spears is always a given instead of wind riders. The only real benefit to wind riders is the CP bonus. Shining spears outperform them in every other way

You're just describing a outrider detachment but making them troops which was agreed earlier is probably too powerful and would need the unit re written to be remotely balanced. They are a Fast attack choice so it's the easiest solution is a faction specific outrider detachment.

Rule
Saim Hann outrider detachment containing 3 units of wind riders and HQ models on Jetbike changes the command benifit from +1CP to +3CP.

obsec
You could possibly add obsec to them but it would need to be worded carefully to prevent it resulting in ObSec HQ's and shining spears.
*Windrider units in this detachment gain ObSec

Who agreed that Windriders being troops was too powerful? All the complaints were just saying they shouldn't be troops because...reasons.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Who agreed that Windriders being troops was too powerful? All the complaints were just saying they shouldn't be troops because...reasons.

I actually agreed they shouldn't be Troops anymore, but I was very specific on the reasons:

1) No other army has bikes as Troops. 8E is the age of Infantry only Troops, apparently
2) WRs were great as Troops when only 1 per 3 bikes could upgrade their weapon. When the newest plastic kit dropped, GW gave them all special weapons options.
Their damage output dramatically spiked because of this. No other Troops can move as fast and put out as much damage for so little.

So while I am certainly bitter that I had to go buy Infantry Troops just to play a legal viable list (because let's face it, Battalions are the only viable option), I can certainly concede there are "good" reasons why WRs got bumped to Fast Attack.
They could be Troops again (cuz reason 1 above can be ignored), but only if their access to special weapons dropped back to 1 per 3.

Since that won't happen, WRs will be relegated to Fast Attack. And as I have said, that creates a wholly different issue in which WRs are now completely and utterly redundant as Spears and Vypers are far better options.
WR's need to either be DRAMATICALLY cheaper (by 5ppm), or give you some other incentive to be taken (other than fluff)

-

 Galef wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Who agreed that Windriders being troops was too powerful? All the complaints were just saying they shouldn't be troops because...reasons.

I actually agreed they shouldn't be Troops anymore, but I was very specific on the reasons:

1) No other army has bikes as Troops. 8E is the age of Infantry only Troops, apparently
2) WRs were great as Troops when only 1 per 3 bikes could upgrade their weapon. When the newest plastic kit dropped, GW gave them all special weapons options.
Their damage output dramatically spiked because of this. No other Troops can move as fast and put out as much damage for so little.

So while I am certainly bitter that I had to go buy Infantry Troops just to play a legal viable list (because let's face it, Battalions are the only viable option), I can certainly concede there are "good" reasons why WRs got bumped to Fast Attack.
They could be Troops again (cuz reason 1 above can be ignored), but only if their access to special weapons dropped back to 1 per 3.

Since that won't happen, WRs will be relegated to Fast Attack. And as I have said, that creates a wholly different issue in which WRs are now completely and utterly redundant as Spears and Vypers are far better options.
WR's need to either be DRAMATICALLY cheaper (by 5ppm), or give you some other incentive to be taken (other than fluff)

-

1. Which most people agree is stupid outside certain people who don't like Bikes because...reasons. Believe it or not, there are people that don't like them and just want them nerfed because they hate the aesthetic.
2. The problem was the price of the Scatterlaser, not how many you could take.

There really isn't an excuse and it is sad you're conceding because some people think that they needed to be nerfed to uselessness because they did well in 7th.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
it is sad you're conceding because some people think that they needed to be nerfed to uselessness because they did well in 7th.

You didn't seem to read my post at all. I have in NO way conceded "because some people think that they needed to be nerfed to uselessness because they did well in 7th". That's the stupidest reason.
I've conceded because WRs as they became in 6th-7th were as effective as a Fast Attack choice (which are limited for a reason) but with all the privileges of being Troops.
The need to be less effective to be fair as a Troops choice.

Imagine if Tactical Marines could move 12+ inches, Fly and every model could take a Plasma or Heavy Bolter. That is essentially what WRs were in 7E and still are in 8E, but at least cannot get all the bonuses for being Troops.
I want them to be Troops, but only if they are limited in how many Shuricannons and Scatter lasers they can take. It is only fair to trade a bit of effectiveness for all the benefits of beign Troops. TwinCats are still a really good choice, but includes the higher risk of getting closer.

-

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Galef wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Who agreed that Windriders being troops was too powerful? All the complaints were just saying they shouldn't be troops because...reasons.

I actually agreed they shouldn't be Troops anymore, but I was very specific on the reasons:

1) No other army has bikes as Troops. 8E is the age of Infantry only Troops, apparently
2) WRs were great as Troops when only 1 per 3 bikes could upgrade their weapon. When the newest plastic kit dropped, GW gave them all special weapons options.
Their damage output dramatically spiked because of this. No other Troops can move as fast and put out as much damage for so little.

So while I am certainly bitter that I had to go buy Infantry Troops just to play a legal viable list (because let's face it, Battalions are the only viable option), I can certainly concede there are "good" reasons why WRs got bumped to Fast Attack.
They could be Troops again (cuz reason 1 above can be ignored), but only if their access to special weapons dropped back to 1 per 3.

Since that won't happen, WRs will be relegated to Fast Attack. And as I have said, that creates a wholly different issue in which WRs are now completely and utterly redundant as Spears and Vypers are far better options.
WR's need to either be DRAMATICALLY cheaper (by 5ppm), or give you some other incentive to be taken (other than fluff)

-

1. Which most people agree is stupid outside certain people who don't like Bikes because...reasons. Believe it or not, there are people that don't like them and just want them nerfed because they hate the aesthetic.
2. The problem was the price of the Scatterlaser, not how many you could take.

There really isn't an excuse and it is sad you're conceding because some people think that they needed to be nerfed to uselessness because they did well in 7th.

You can still take an all mobile Saim Hann army ok post FAQ it might need some footdar and waveserpents but still a highly mobile list.

Detachments were supposed to be how you built your all bike armies, your armoured spearheads you vanguard deathwing lists.
You trade opsec and command points for the ability to not pay a troops tax.

Making units back into troops makes all the specialist detachments utterly pointless.
Also it will just lead to another form of powercreep that ends in who has the most powerful non troop, troop choice to spam winning everything.

CP's are supposed to be a balancing mechanism that rewards people for taking less optimised lists. Turning everything into troops makes all the specialist detachments and the bonouses in CP for troops tax detachments utterly pointless.

Ice_can wrote:

Making units back into troops makes all the specialist detachments utterly pointless.

While I mostly agree with the rest of your post, ^this sentence is the source of our misunderstanding.
I agree that "specialists" should not be Troops, but WRs are NOT supposed to be specialists.
They were made this way in late 6th, but they were not originally designed as specialists. They were designed as a Core "rank-n-file" choice.

This is why FOR OVER A DECADE Guardian Jetbikes could only take 1 Shuricannon per 3 bikes and had no other weapon upgrade. They were not very effective, you took them to fill your Troops and take pot-shots.
It wasn't until the recent plastic kit that each bike was given access to either Shuricannon or Scatter laser.
That is when they drifted into a more "specialist" role.

They current sit in a weird limbo state. Not belonging in Troops, but not good enough to be a Fast Attack choice either.

-

 Galef wrote:

Ice_can wrote:

Making units back into troops makes all the specialist detachments utterly pointless.

While I mostly agree with the rest of your post, ^this sentence is the source of our misunderstanding.
I agree that "specialists" should not be Troops, but WRs are NOT supposed to be specialists.
They were made this way in late 6th, but they were not originally designed as specialists. They were designed as a Core "rank-n-file" choice.

This is why FOR OVER A DECADE Guardian Jetbikes could only take 1 Shuricannon per 3 bikes and had no other weapon upgrade. They were not very effective, you took them to fill your Troops and take pot-shots.
It wasn't until the recent plastic kit that each bike was given access to either Shuricannon or Scatter laser.
That is when they drifted into a more "specialist" role.

They current sit in a weird limbo state. Not belonging in Troops, but not good enough to be a Fast Attack choice either.

-

If you could take 3 wind rider units for a battalion plus shining spears etc in the fast attack slots of said battalion what purpose does an outrider detachment bring to the game?

If dark angles could take deathwing knights as troops why include the vanguard detachment? If units start being given troop status for fluff reason why bother with the detachment system at all?

We have this great tool for allowing armies to specialise in different slots why waste it by just making everything back into troops choices?
Making the specialist detachments work for a theam also allows GW to adjust balance of the fluff detachment via CP without nerfing the unit for other subfactions of the codex.

Ice_can wrote:

 Galef wrote:

Ice_can wrote:

Making units back into troops makes all the specialist detachments utterly pointless.

While I mostly agree with the rest of your post, ^this sentence is the source of our misunderstanding.
I agree that "specialists" should not be Troops, but WRs are NOT supposed to be specialists.
They were made this way in late 6th, but they were not originally designed as specialists. They were designed as a Core "rank-n-file" choice.

This is why FOR OVER A DECADE Guardian Jetbikes could only take 1 Shuricannon per 3 bikes and had no other weapon upgrade. They were not very effective, you took them to fill your Troops and take pot-shots.
It wasn't until the recent plastic kit that each bike was given access to either Shuricannon or Scatter laser.
That is when they drifted into a more "specialist" role.

They current sit in a weird limbo state. Not belonging in Troops, but not good enough to be a Fast Attack choice either.

-

If you could take 3 wind rider units for a battalion plus shining spears etc in the fast attack slots of said battalion what purpose does an outrider detachment bring to the game?

If dark angles could take deathwing knights as troops why include the vanguard detachment? If units start being given troop status for fluff reason why bother with the detachment system at all?

We have this great tool for allowing armies to specialise in different slots why waste it by just making everything back into troops choices?
Making the specialist detachments work for a theam also allows GW to adjust balance of the fluff detachment via CP without nerfing the unit for other subfactions of the codex.

Except it wouldn't be Deathwing Knights being troops but rather the generic Deathwing (who aren't specialist. Just like Windriders).

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Except it wouldn't be Deathwing Knights being troops but rather the generic Deathwing (who aren't specialist. Just like Windriders).

The fact that Ice_Can considers DW Termies and DW Knights as the same unit kinda highlights how we will never agree on the subject.
A unit can be in Terminator armour, or riding a bike/jetbike and still not be a specialist. Especially when other units in the same codex actually perform the specialist role.

DW Termies, RW bikes and WRs are NOT DW Knights, RW Black Knights and Shining Spears/Vypers. The later are the "specialists", the former are the "general filler"
If you can't tell the difference and think that are all "specialists" because they aren't generic non-heavy armoured infantry, than I don't think anyone will convince you otherwise.

-

Since we are talking about Siam Han (this is the most common eldar list I fight against and it is strong.) Autarch with Nova lance is super strong.

The biggest beef I have with the army is the tactic. Yeah it's not a bad tactic but I think they realized it need a bit more but did not follow through.

They allowed their bikers to ignore move and shoot penalty but I really think it should extend to every unit in the army. It would be really nice to see something other than a SC on a wave serpent you know?

As far as the bikes go - not being troops is not a problem. Siamhan deploy their troops in transports also (not just on bikes) so you can still be fluffy and get your battalions.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Since we are talking about Siam Han (this is the most common eldar list I fight against and it is strong.) Autarch with Nova lance is super strong.

The biggest beef I have with the army is the tactic. Yeah it's not a bad tactic but I think they realized it need a bit more but did not follow through.

They allowed their bikers to ignore move and shoot penalty but I really think it should extend to every unit in the army. It would be really nice to see something other than a SC on a wave serpent you know?

As far as the bikes go - not being troops is not a problem. Siamhan deploy their troops in transports also (not just on bikes) so you can still be fluffy and get your battalions.

I agree. There is only 1 unit that actually gets both of the Saim-hann traits and it's an Index option. Specifically the Autarch Skyrunner with Reaper launcher.
All other units either do not have Heavy Weapons, or do not want to get into melee.

Making the move with heavy at no penalty apply to all units, not just bikes would certainly open up Saim-Hann, not only as a mobile/fluffy list, but also as a semi competitive CW that might actually see play instead of Alaitoc all day everyday.

Still doesn't help WRs though. There is not reason to take Scatter lasers over Shuricannons on WRs, even with the Saim-Hann trait. 3 shots that you can advance and shoot with no penalty that might be AP-3 are a non-brainer compared to 4 shots that you cannot advance with and never have AP.

-

I mean I'd get on the boat to make WR's troops if RW bikers also get the same treatment.

Afterall, they're in no way 'specialist' with two special weapon limitations.

 skchsan wrote:
I mean I'd get on the boat to make WR's troops if RW bikers also get the same treatment.

Afterall, they're in no way 'specialist' with two special weapon limitations.

Most people are annoyed that Ravenwing can't do that anymore so...

I'd actually be ok with WRs not being Troops, if there was a reason to take them. Even if that is a points reduction by at least 3-5ppm.
But yes, RW bikes, DW Termies, etc should all get the same treatment.

 Galef wrote:
I'd actually be ok with WRs not being Troops, if there was a reason to take them. Even if that is a points reduction by at least 3-5ppm.
But yes, RW bikes, DW Termies, etc should all get the same treatment.

What about scout bikes though? Should they remain in fast attack?

Also, what do you think about BA DC's? Should they also get DC as troops again? What do you think the limitations/requirements should be?

 Galef wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Since we are talking about Siam Han (this is the most common eldar list I fight against and it is strong.) Autarch with Nova lance is super strong.

The biggest beef I have with the army is the tactic. Yeah it's not a bad tactic but I think they realized it need a bit more but did not follow through.

They allowed their bikers to ignore move and shoot penalty but I really think it should extend to every unit in the army. It would be really nice to see something other than a SC on a wave serpent you know?

As far as the bikes go - not being troops is not a problem. Siamhan deploy their troops in transports also (not just on bikes) so you can still be fluffy and get your battalions.

I agree. There is only 1 unit that actually gets both of the Saim-hann traits and it's an Index option. Specifically the Autarch Skyrunner with Reaper launcher.
All other units either do not have Heavy Weapons, or do not want to get into melee.

Making the move with heavy at no penalty apply to all units, not just bikes would certainly open up Saim-Hann, not only as a mobile/fluffy list, but also as a semi competitive CW that might actually see play instead of Alaitoc all day everyday.

Still doesn't help WRs though. There is not reason to take Scatter lasers over Shuricannons on WRs, even with the Saim-Hann trait. 3 shots that you can advance and shoot with no penalty that might be AP-3 are a non-brainer compared to 4 shots that you cannot advance with and never have AP.

-

I've seen a few uses of it being pretty effective. A huge unit with SL is a excellent target for forewarning. Huge Range and can pretty much blast any infantry squad off the table after a deep strike.
Think Tyranid termagants or chaos cultists.

Obviously it's pretty good for vipers. They don't have good weapon synergy though. What do you give them? An EML or a bright lance or Star Cannon? Their best weapon is actually the SC because it goes well with the other SC or TLSC they have to take. If it affected war-walkers it would be amazing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Galef wrote:
I'd actually be ok with WRs not being Troops, if there was a reason to take them. Even if that is a points reduction by at least 3-5ppm.
But yes, RW bikes, DW Termies, etc should all get the same treatment.

Yeah they are clearly too expensive also. Getting their 3+ save back would go a long way.

 Galef wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Except it wouldn't be Deathwing Knights being troops but rather the generic Deathwing (who aren't specialist. Just like Windriders).

The fact that Ice_Can considers DW Termies and DW Knights as the same unit kinda highlights how we will never agree on the subject.
A unit can be in Terminator armour, or riding a bike/jetbike and still not be a specialist. Especially when other units in the same codex actually perform the specialist role.

DW Termies, RW bikes and WRs are NOT DW Knights, RW Black Knights and Shining Spears/Vypers. The later are the "specialists", the former are the "general filler"
If you can't tell the difference and think that are all "specialists" because they aren't generic non-heavy armoured infantry, than I don't think anyone will convince you otherwise.

-

I'm obviously not comunitating what I mean clearly

I'm not taking about the units in the detachment being specialist.
I mean the new for 8th edition detachments of vanguard, outrider, spearhead.

Vanguard is a specialised detachment for elites
Spearhead being a specialised detachment for Heavy support is what I mean by specialist detachments .

Battalion brigade is really juat the old Force organisation chart.
With the troops tax, HQ Tax etc.

By having 3 outrider detachments (pre FAQ) you could build all bike armies, 3 vanguard = all veteran armies, Spearhead = all tank armies.

A unit doesn't have to be a troop choice for you to be able to build an army around it.

The rule of 3 broke this but I think the rule of 3 really could do with some rework as while it achieved its broad aim it also caused collateral damage to units it shouldn't have hit.

What about this simple kind of change:

Saim Hann: Wild Riders

An Outrider Detachment with the Saim Hann Craftworld Trait generates 3 CP instead of 1 CP if it contains the following units: One or more Autarch Skyrunners, three or more Windrider units, and two or more Vyper units.

___________________________

You could do the same with most of the Craftworlds, and various other armies. It's not game breaking, would give you a minor excuse to have fluff and would keep CPs relatively inline with the larger Battalions, etc. An Iyanden version of the above could include a Spiritseer, three or more Wraithguard/Wraithblade units, and two Wraithlords etc. A very easy fix which wouldn't rustle any jimmies. It doesn't change any battlefield roles (because yes...bikers should still not be troops), and doesn't change any game mechanics. Constructed properly they'll fit into existing detachment rules. It's more akin to the Dark Eldar ability, giving players a few CP generation options for units which are more fluffy.

Ice_can wrote:
The rule of 3 broke this but I think the rule of 3 really could do with some rework as while it achieved its broad aim it also caused collateral damage to units it shouldn't have hit.

I wonder who the culprit behind this was...

 Elbows wrote:
What about this simple kind of change:

Saim Hann: Wild Riders

An Outrider Detachment with the Saim Hann Craftworld Trait generates 3 CP instead of 1 CP if it contains the following units: One or more Autarch Skyrunners, three or more Windrider units, and two or more Vyper units.

___________________________

You could do the same with most of the Craftworlds, and various other armies. It's not game breaking, would give you a minor excuse to have fluff and would keep CPs relatively inline with the larger Battalions, etc. An Iyanden version of the above could include a Spiritseer, three or more Wraithguard/Wraithblade units, and two Wraithlords etc. A very easy fix which wouldn't rustle any jimmies. It doesn't change any battlefield roles (because yes...bikers should still not be troops), and doesn't change any game mechanics. Constructed properly they'll fit into existing detachment rules. It's more akin to the Dark Eldar ability, giving players a few CP generation options for units which are more fluffy.

Yeah if you wanted to really drive the fluff in you could tie the detachment into having to have a single subfaction keyword, though I think that might be a bit too restrictive. But it would gice fluff players a bonus over soupers.

 Elbows wrote:
What about this simple kind of change:

Saim Hann: Wild Riders

An Outrider Detachment with the Saim Hann Craftworld Trait generates 3 CP instead of 1 CP if it contains the following units: One or more Autarch Skyrunners, three or more Windrider units, and two or more Vyper units.

___________________________

You could do the same with most of the Craftworlds, and various other armies. It's not game breaking, would give you a minor excuse to have fluff and would keep CPs relatively inline with the larger Battalions, etc. An Iyanden version of the above could include a Spiritseer, three or more Wraithguard/Wraithblade units, and two Wraithlords etc. A very easy fix which wouldn't rustle any jimmies. It doesn't change any battlefield roles (because yes...bikers should still not be troops), and doesn't change any game mechanics. Constructed properly they'll fit into existing detachment rules. It's more akin to the Dark Eldar ability, giving players a few CP generation options for units which are more fluffy.

What if fulfilling specific detachment requirements instead granted another trait? Something that's not game breaking but at a level of benefit one would get at the cost of CP's? I don't play eldar so I'm gonna go with a RW specific one:

Ravenwing Strike Force: The Rapid Hunt
An Outrider Detachment where every unit has the keyword RAVENWING may claim the benefits of 'Jink' during the first turn even though it has not advanced. The detachment may include CHARACTERS with BIKER keyword, but they do not benefit from 'Jink". In addition, if an entire army is made of units with RAVENWING keyword, then you may add 1 to the roll to see who goes first and seize the initiative roll.

Something in the lines of this where it only triggers abilities it already has or something that helps establish tempo in the game.