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 Strg Alt wrote:

 lolman1c wrote:
I would prefer they make the rules actually good for once with thr nauts and stompa before trying to get us to buy more...
Never known gw to bring something out that's just bad rules from day one and got worse over time.

From what I have heard so far, the new rules for the big imperial knight do not suck. So there is evidence that GW can write rules to promote sales.

Hah. How good a unit turns out to be is essentially random. There have been plenty of models and codexes released with terrible rules. If GW actually understood the game well enough to make units good or bad deliberately then we wouldn't see the terrible ones, would we?

So there is evidence that GW can write rules to promote sales.

what a new is like that since ages

 Scott-S6 wrote:

 Strg Alt wrote:

 lolman1c wrote:
I would prefer they make the rules actually good for once with thr nauts and stompa before trying to get us to buy more...
Never known gw to bring something out that's just bad rules from day one and got worse over time.

From what I have heard so far, the new rules for the big imperial knight do not suck. So there is evidence that GW can write rules to promote sales.

Hah. How good a unit turns out to be is essentially random. There have been plenty of models and codexes released with terrible rules. If GW actually understood the game well enough to make units good or bad deliberately then we wouldn't see the terrible ones, would we?

When the defiler appeared in the chaos codex it was superior than a vindicator. Large template and cc capability. So my Night Lords gained a demonic crustacean. GW can push new models, if they want. I still have fond memories of the following combo: Lash of Submission for a nice group huddle + Defiler template + Kyborg Plasma Blast templates = FUN!

If that wasn't a happy accident then why would they release 'nauts and nobz while the rules are garbage? Why would they release things like codex Grey Knights?

Because people are auto-hating and are happy to blame GW for everything they can, so they forget that for every model release that is OP, there is a model release that is utter trash.


Example case-riptide.
The riptide got released in a big tau 6th releaes. alongside it we also got the broadside.
Both were amazing (with the correct setup) and quick to raise balming of rules for sells
What people utterly forgot about, is that the same release also had pathfinders, fireblades, failcast commander, firesight ,darkstrider and longstike. none were great at the time (some got better though)
And also-sunshark/razorshark. who is also a big kit, and to the day has never been even good, let alone top tier.



Heldrake? notorius at the time.
Was also release with mauler/forgefiend, who were never top tier, warptalon/raptors who are an AMAZING sculpt, but mediocre, solo release the DV asp chamption and a handful of bad failcast models (were mutilators EVER playable?)

etc, etc.

Point me to a model that was OP on release day, and I can practically always find another model released at the same timeframe (and often at the same day) that was nigh unplayable, or outright trash.

GW, at least until 8th, had horrid balance. not due to any malice in trying to force sells, but just sheer incompetence.
Some models happened to have great balance, some were completely useless and yes-some were overpowered. its only natural that when you randomize the results sometimes you get a highroll.

Even better example - the forgeshrine. Two of it's abilities are actually worse than not using it and the 3rd is highly situational.

Rules like that are not the mark of a team that carefully tune rules to maximise sales.

Okay this is cute.... but pls for the love of God geedubs can I pls get a reasonable cost for my Warhound Titan? 2 THOUSAND points? at index 1500 it was barely playable.... but 2k? I can't put him on the table with any hope of killing his points back.... just why....

Its nice and I love they're trying, however it was literally a copy and paste from the IK codex with a few of the chaos only weapons tacked in... hopefully we get something in CA that will make Chaos Knights unique.

 GamerGuy wrote:
Okay this is cute.... but pls for the love of God geedubs can I pls get a reasonable cost for my Warhound Titan? 2 THOUSAND points? at index 1500 it was barely playable.... but 2k? I can't put him on the table with any hope of killing his points back.... just why....

Really because 8th edition is cheap hoard edition. GW bumped a lot of FW points in CA then promptly slashed the cost of almost every codex model.

Part of it sounds like they don't want people using FW the other part is it sounds like they are trying to remove them from sub 2k games. Because their is no longer a line between a normal game and an apocalyptic scale game.

they dont want titans being played outside of apocalypse style games, pretty simple.

Yep, the smack to Forgeworld units was incredibly obvious...and I don't blame them. It was perhaps somewhat hamfisted, but notice that the Power Levels didn't change, only the points cost.

This means you can run them just as they were in large silly Apoc games (where there's no reason to not use Power Level), but they've been artificially increased to avoid people taking them in tournaments.

 blackmage wrote:
they dont want titans being played outside of apocalypse style games, pretty simple.

Except they did that to other than titans. No they don\t want gamers to spam resin models. If FW sold plastics they would have been throwing in price drops but as it was resin price ups are inevitable even if they were worst models per points possible. GW doesn't care one whiff about balance which was obvious from this move. Just question of do they want to sell higher profit plastic or resin.

If GW releases plastic warhound you can expect price to drop somewhere around 1000-1200 levels. With no rule changes.

When FW superheavies are going up in price but GW ones aren't it becomes clear that there is a disconnect.

I still maintain that the FW team is responsible for the points changes to the FW stuff, this kind of over reaction is what we've seen from them many times before.

Rule changes from FW comes from FW sources. CA was GW studio job. And unlike GW guys FW guys actually know how to design game so they would have more likely made titans actually better seeing how lousy options they are. Nor give 300% boost to price of model that wasn't exactly worth it to begin with.

Fw know how to make a gane.... hahahhaaaaa... wa- one second- I need to cath my bre- Hahahahaaaahahahahaahahahaaaa...... oh... phew... oh man... Hahahahahahaaa....

But no seriously. Both of them have problems and they need to work them out. In a world where more and more gamers are used to day one patches to fix balance and these gamers become GW'S priority, they need to work together to make at least something tyat resembles something modern and good.

tneva82 wrote:
Rule changes from FW comes from FW sources. CA was GW studio job. And unlike GW guys FW guys actually know how to design game so they would have more likely made titans actually better seeing how lousy options they are. Nor give 300% boost to price of model that wasn't exactly worth it to begin with.

Really? Grossly over nerfing things is pretty much the trademark of the FW team in 40K.

We have no idea if the FW changes in CA came from the FW team or not but this would certainly be consistent with their usual behaviour.

 lolman1c wrote:
Fw know how to make a gane.... hahahhaaaaa... wa- one second- I need to cath my bre- Hahahahaaaahahahahaahahahaaaa...... oh... phew... oh man... Hahahahahahaaa....

But no seriously. Both of them have problems and they need to work them out. In a world where more and more gamers are used to day one patches to fix balance and these gamers become GW'S priority, they need to work together to make at least something tyat resembles something modern and good.

Yes. Give them time(and not like with 8th ed when they learned of 8th ed when all others learned out.

But then again look at HH which beats crap out of all versions of 40k in terms of logical good balanced rules.

And of course GW codexes are the ones that have more broken stuff than FW ones. FW ones are actually leaning on weak side. Case in point all the titans GW decided to up. They were bad choices to begin with. GW meanwhile has no problem giving broken crap.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Scott-S6 wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
Rule changes from FW comes from FW sources. CA was GW studio job. And unlike GW guys FW guys actually know how to design game so they would have more likely made titans actually better seeing how lousy options they are. Nor give 300% boost to price of model that wasn't exactly worth it to begin with.

Really? Grossly over nerfing things is pretty much the trademark of the FW team in 40K.

We have no idea if the FW changes in CA came from the FW team or not but this would certainly be consistent with their usual behaviour.

Compared to FW design team gives out reasonably balanced units no it doesn't. This fits very well with GW design studio meanwhile.

FW have never put out reasonably balanced units. Apart from the odd model that's thoroughly OP because they clearly didn't think about how it would actually work in practice FW models are consistently weak, overpriced or both (and let's not forget about the models with rules that flat out don't function).

tneva82 wrote:

 lolman1c wrote:
Fw know how to make a gane.... hahahhaaaaa... wa- one second- I need to cath my bre- Hahahahaaaahahahahaahahahaaaa...... oh... phew... oh man... Hahahahahahaaa....

But no seriously. Both of them have problems and they need to work them out. In a world where more and more gamers are used to day one patches to fix balance and these gamers become GW'S priority, they need to work together to make at least something tyat resembles something modern and good.

Yes. Give them time(and not like with 8th ed when they learned of 8th ed when all others learned out.

But then again look at HH which beats crap out of all versions of 40k in terms of logical good balanced rules.

And of course GW codexes are the ones that have more broken stuff than FW ones. FW ones are actually leaning on weak side. Case in point all the titans GW decided to up. They were bad choices to begin with. GW meanwhile has no problem giving broken crap.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Scott-S6 wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
Rule changes from FW comes from FW sources. CA was GW studio job. And unlike GW guys FW guys actually know how to design game so they would have more likely made titans actually better seeing how lousy options they are. Nor give 300% boost to price of model that wasn't exactly worth it to begin with.

Really? Grossly over nerfing things is pretty much the trademark of the FW team in 40K.

We have no idea if the FW changes in CA came from the FW team or not but this would certainly be consistent with their usual behaviour.

Compared to FW design team gives out reasonably balanced units no it doesn't. This fits very well with GW design studio meanwhile.

HH is a bit of a weird one. Never played it but forgive me if I am wrong in thinking there isn't nearly as many units as 40k. It looks like an interesting game but I'm just not really a marine player. I hear you can play knights though now so could be something I could get in on through that.